View Full Version : Nurses Strike
soccerc
11/04/2007, 11:44 PM
Here is there list of what there "strike" means they wont be doing .
*Clinical/admin duties; nursing notes will be maintained manually;( admins job )
*Attend meetings, except those involving consideration of named individual patients, their welfare and case management;
*Telephone work, except calls deemed essential on clinical grounds;( admins job )
*Open or secure all community-based buildings and facilities.( securties job )
As you see it doesnt mean an awfull lot if security and admin staff did the jobs they are paid to do there would be no dissrution at all .
As someone who has closely observed the health service intimately for the past 3 years can I say you are talking ******.
Nursing notes* must be manually recorded, always have and a move to computer based records would cause huge difficulties under Data Protection Act.
* nursing notes would be better described as a two hour doss at start and end of shift. Since when are nursing notes an admin responsibility?
Meetings are normally as part of multi disciplinary team work - who is supposed to know the patient best? The Nurse!
As it stands I am now on my way back to an A&E dept due to an relapse of the person concerned.
Dodge
12/04/2007, 12:00 AM
Welcome to the rest of the planet. The problem here seems to be that other workers are getting paid for eating and drinking. I think need to work to remove that from other workers. Nice to see where my tax euros going...
Must be paying tax pete if you're paying civil servants and nurses....
anto1208
12/04/2007, 9:58 AM
As someone who has closely observed the health service intimately for the past 3 years can I say you are talking ******.
Nursing notes* must be manually recorded, always have and a move to computer based records would cause huge difficulties under Data Protection Act.
* nursing notes would be better described as a two hour doss at start and end of shift. Since when are nursing notes an admin responsibility?
Meetings are normally as part of multi disciplinary team work - who is supposed to know the patient best? The Nurse!
As it stands I am now on my way back to an A&E dept due to an relapse of the person concerned.
No it says they wont do Clinical/admin duties then there is a coma and then it says nurses notes WILL be maintained .
What a doss Id love after 12 hours on my feet to have to stay behind for an extra 2 hours writting up reports , What a life up at 6 30 work 8 to 8 then write reports till 10 ... but after that you have the rest of the day to yourself .
They do know the patients best thats why it says wont attend meetings EXCEPT the meetings concerning patients .
BTW i didnt write those demands they are from the INO website dont see how i can be blamed for talking ****e .
Sorry to hear about the relapse but wouldnt you prefer the nurses to be looking after your friend rather than answering phones , opening buildings , cleaning toilets or sitting in pointless meetings ?
Clifford
12/04/2007, 1:02 PM
What a doss Id love after 12 hours on my feet to have to stay behind for an extra 2 hours writting up reports , What a life up at 6 30 work 8 to 8 then write reports till 10 ... but after that you have the rest of the day to yourself .
Thats exactly what it amounts to and why my wife left the slave labour behind and now works 9-5 in a health centre with reps bringing them out to dinner almost one day a week. The change in her own health was noticable within a week. I feel for anyone left behind to be bullied, abused and trod on - and that's only by patients and their relatives - I wouldn't even try to picture what the management do to them.
anto1208
12/04/2007, 1:18 PM
Thats exactly what it amounts to and why my wife left the slave labour behind and now works 9-5 in a health centre with reps bringing them out to dinner almost one day a week. The change in her own health was noticable within a week. I feel for anyone left behind to be bullied, abused and trod on - and that's only by patients and their relatives - I wouldn't even try to picture what the management do to them.
I read some where it costs 85,000 euro per year ( 4 year course 340,000euro) to train a nurse and in the last few years 9,000 irish nurses have left the country or the proffesion , then the goverment spends million s bringing in 13,000 nurses from outside the country :confused:
at a rough guess thats 3060 million euro wasted on training nurses that leave and i presume importing the 13,000 costs something similar . Wouldnt it just make sence to treat them properly and keep the nurses in the country .
A friend of mine is just about qualified with in the next few weeks but she is all ready planning on getting out of general nursing . After being worked into the ground , attacked by patients and family ( actually punched by a so called man ) she has had enough and she isnt even qualified yet
John83
12/04/2007, 1:31 PM
What a doss Id love after 12 hours on my feet to have to stay behind for an extra 2 hours writting up reports , What a life up at 6 30 work 8 to 8 then write reports till 10 ... but after that you have the rest of the day to yourself .
For three days a week, that's pretty handy.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUGBAUSNCW&rss=rss1
here we go everyone will be at it now & we the tax payers will have to foot the bill. The teachers, guards etc will want what the nurses get.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUGBAUSNCW&rss=rss1
here we go everyone will be at it now & we the tax payers will have to foot the bill. The teachers, guards etc will want what the nurses get.
Examples of people leaving nursing here are examples of personal choices. Some of the talk here makes it sound like nurses work in mineshafts.
If I was employed in the public sector I would also support the nurses as I would realise makes my case for pay increase better. Unfortunately its the private sector workers who will end up with pay increases to fund all these claims.
Interesting that not heard nurse unions requesting more funding of hospital facilities instead of pay rise.
MyTown
12/04/2007, 2:50 PM
Great Thread Lads.
Out of every €1 spent in the HSE between 70 and 80 cent goes on wages and salaries. The biggest wage expenditure is in the area of nursing.
Is Liam Doran the real CEO of the HSE? So it seems given his propensity to CLAIM the moral high ground on everything.
So a few quick questions for Liam and his supporters
1.How much is ABSENTEEISM amongst nurses costing the HSE (i.e. the taxpayers of this country) every year?
2.For every nurse who is ON DUTY, how many nurses are on full pay but on
sick leave
annual leave
compassionate leave
parental leave
flexible working
course days
study days
concession days
term time
and on it goes.
How many members use/abuse their "entitlement" to the maximum number of uncertified sick days in a year?
3. For every nurse who agrees a contract to work a 24/7 ROSTER, how many actually work night duty?
4. Does the INO / PNA accept that one of the reasons nurse morale is so low is that BULLYING is endemic in the profession i.e. BY NURSES TO NURSES?
5. Does the INO/PNA place any creedance in the views of the World Health Organisation that stress the need for nurses to spend much more of their practice IN THE COMMUNITY at PRIMARY CARE level, rather than in Acute Hospital settings? Accepting this would mean a huge saving to the HSE in reduced overtime payments to nurses for weekend and night duty, but I somehow doubt the nurses would give this up, even 'though 24/7 has become a huge part of many peoples working lives now, many of whom don't get bonus payments for "unsocial" shifts.
I believe the public is in thrall to the nurses, because when those we love are sick we will be grateful for any kindness or support given to us.
Many of you have posted your support for the nurses above and have given instances of where you sat at the bedside of loved ones, so can I ask, if THE SAME NURSE did two consecutive shifts while you were there? My point is there is NO CONTINUITY of care for those who are sick in hospital.
It's very fashionable to bash the religious orders in this country now, but from my recollection, when the nuns were in charge of hospitals, they were clean and infection free. Now under a nurse manager structure infection is rampant and from my observations nurses come and go off the wards as they please in uniform.
I recently sat at a relatives bedside, close to the nurses station. The "quality" of care was very poor. Lots of flicking through magazines, arranging the next night out, recommending shopping spots and commenting on patients relatives, but only very rare visits to the patients bedside.
Since their last industrial action and the Commission on Nursing, they are very quick to brandish their professional credentials, but not so quick to honour their responsibilities IMO.
Most of this post is unashamedly against the nurses arguments in this dispute. In the interests of balance, I want to state I have been lucky enough to come across some brilliant professionals who have given excellent care and go beyond and above the call of duty. They deserve any concessions Liam Doran and Des Kavanagh get for them. My problem is a huge number of lazy opportunists will also benefit from the nursing gravy train which looks set to run and run.
Maybe that’s true of all “professions”?
Clifford
12/04/2007, 4:06 PM
Good post My Town, the govt has ruined the health system and don't know how to fix it. As mentioned some time last week all the above topics are indeed rife in the nursing system here, until the training and management are tightened up there will continue to be people who abuse it as you rightly state. It is also a reason why the good nurses are leaving as I stated earlier in this thread. This current strike in the eyes of most honest nurses is just the straw that broke the camels back. As I stated before my missus wouldn't have had any probs with the money or hours.
Examples of people leaving nursing here are examples of personal choices. Some of the talk here makes it sound like nurses work in mineshafts.
Not even close, the mineshafts were mild in comparisson at times. You don't have to accept it, I'm giving my wife's experiences, she left before she was beaten or bullied out of it like many before her. No word of a lie, no exaggeration. She used come home from work and pass out, physically sick most of the time. I accept she was one of the "honest" ones, cut out for the vocation from the age of 12, but it's not acceptable. In England where she nursed it was a treat in the much maligned NHS.
Not even close, the mineshafts were mild in comparisson at times. You don't have to accept it, I'm giving my wife's experiences, she left before she was beaten or bullied out of it like many before her. No word of a lie, no exaggeration. She used come home from work and pass out, physically sick most of the time. I accept she was one of the "honest" ones, cut out for the vocation from the age of 12, but it's not acceptable. In England where she nursed it was a treat in the much maligned NHS.
I have no personal knowledge so accept your comments. I suppose like many jobs its the people that care who get abused & overworked. :(
soccerc
12/04/2007, 4:18 PM
BTW i didnt write those demands they are from the INO website dont see how i can be blamed for talking ****e .
Sorry to hear about the relapse but wouldnt you prefer the nurses to be looking after your friend rather than answering phones , opening buildings , cleaning toilets or sitting in pointless meetings ?
From the way it was posted there is no reference to where it came from so I took it as your view.
I would prefer nursing staff to nurse for their shift and if a meeting is required as a nursing matter then yes they should attend.
Clifford
12/04/2007, 5:40 PM
I have no personal knowledge so accept your comments. I suppose like many jobs its the people that care who get abused & overworked. :(
Exactly sadly.
I meant to put a smilie thingy by the mineshift thing as well obviously as it's not that bad. There are too many issues, assaults/threats, management issues, staffing levels, colleagues who are shocking and should not be left dress themselves let alone a wound, colleagues who are fed up to the back teeth with the treatment so don't care/don't show up and at the very end in my opinion they would all like less hours and more money (shure wouldn't we all). As I say this strike has continued cos they are at such a low ebb.
One simple anecdote from my wifes experiences was that they were not allowed bring in their own lunch or even a bottle of water to take on refreshment when melting from the heat in a ward. So if she didn't eat what was on offer in the disgusting canteen, it was tough luck. I do not jest. That's what it boiled down to, no toilet breaks sometimes in a 12 hour shift, 1 person looking after a 25 patient ward on nights - happened my missus twice. Who would have been blamed if something went wrong? She went through the complaints procedure and is still awaiting an answer 16 months later, all she got was abused for being so "outspoken", the cheek of her.
osarusan
13/04/2007, 1:31 AM
. Unfortunately its the private sector workers who will end up with pay increases to fund all these claims.
Is that what you meant to say?
Pay increases?
GavinZac
13/04/2007, 1:36 AM
who think they have the right to walk all over someone because they chose to devote their lives to helping sick people.
I'm sorry but that sort of deification helps nobody. its a job. its a well paid job. its a rewarding job. its a sociable job. they are no more "devoting their lives to help sick people" than a pharmacist or your local copper. if people want to be treated like charity cases, start acting like it.
Clifford
13/04/2007, 8:15 AM
I'm sorry but that sort of deification helps nobody. its a job. its a well paid job. its a rewarding job. its a sociable job. they are no more "devoting their lives to help sick people" than a pharmacist or your local copper. if people want to be treated like charity cases, start acting like it.
Well that's your take on it, thanks for that. Still doesn't entitle people to treat them so badly. Cop's don't deserve to be treated like that either - they are and they are devoted to saving peoples lives as well in my book. Credit where credit is due.
You put it in the same catagory as someone selling pills, I don't to be honest, but there ya go.
No deification needed, just a small bit of response would suffice I'd imagine.
Breaking News (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUIDAUMHGB)
Was reported on RTE news tonight that nurses unions rejected a 35 hour working week as not given a start date.
How do they think the HSE can remove 10% of the worked nursing hours from the system overnight? :rolleyes:
I think they should take that offer & sell it as a victory as they won't get a better one. How long before someone dies during work stoppage? If patient care not affected by reduced nurse numbers maybe they not needed so much anyway? :confused:
How do they think the HSE can remove 10% of the worked nursing hours from the system overnight? :rolleyes:
Did they ask for the start date to be tomorrow? :rolleyes: They're looking for a start date for the implementation, I've never heard them say they want it immediatly. Do you really expect them to take a wishy washy promise from Harney/ HSE at face value? They've one of those that goes back 27 years already. They are right to insist on a laid out time frame, as Harney and co don't know the meaning of good faith.
FF/PDs may not be in government so is it correct that they negotiate a deal the a new government would be stuck with? For arguments sake FF/Pds could agree to 10% reduction in hours & 10% increase in pay. When a potential new government come in they have a queue of public sector unions queuing up for similar increases as the economy slows down...
Do nurses get 1 hour off every month to cash their pay cheque like the rest of the Dept of Health? Heard this first hand a few years ago that this was still given to staff despite everyone using direct debit.
How many new nurses would be needed to be employed to retain existing hours?
Dodge
27/04/2007, 12:25 PM
Do nurses get 1 hour off every month to cash their pay cheque like the rest of the Dept of Health? Heard this first hand a few years ago that this was still given to staff despite everyone using direct debit.
Not all staff. Just those recruited before a certain date (don't know it off hand). Its a civil service thing
Clifford
10/05/2007, 11:00 AM
From eircom.net
Ms Harney also addressed the conference and said she hoped the protracted dispute between the Health Service Executive (HSE) and nursing unions the INO and Psychiatric Nurses' Association (PNA) would not get worse.
She also urged them to use the Government's National Implementation Body (NIB) and the benchmarking process to pursue their claim for a 10.6 per cent pay rise and the introduction of a 35-hour working week.
In a sometimes hostile atmosphere, Ms Harney was heckled and received no applause after the speech.
The nurses have been continuing a work-to-rule and have staged a series of work stoppages. Tomorrow, three-hour work stoppages will be staged at eight hospitals in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Sligo.
The HSE has given nurses until 5.30pm today to call off their work-to-rule or face a 13 per cent pay-cut.
The INO is holding a private session until 3pm when other politicians will address the meeting in Jury's hotel Ballsbridge. Speakers include Enda Kenny, Liz McManus, Caoimhghin O'Caolain, Joe Higgins, John Gormley and a representative from Fianna Fail.
No 1: Is this threat not bullying of the highest order?
No 2: So it's ok for them to play around with pay out of benchmarking, but not the other way round?
Good grief, they just don't get it do they? :mad:
BohsPartisan
10/05/2007, 11:04 AM
Its comical the HSE feigning concern for the patients when it has been their mismanagement in conjunction with government policy that has lead to the sorry state of the health service.
I don't know the details but apparently the Nurses Unions signed a deal some time ago whereby they got a pay rise in exchange for agreeing to deal with all pay disputes through the benchmarking process.
Assuming this is true then the current dispute is in clear breach hence the threat of pay cut?
BohsPartisan
10/05/2007, 12:21 PM
Assuming this is true then the current dispute is in clear breach hence the threat of pay cut?
Yeah but I'm for breaking these agreements. Did you see the guys that made it? Why are the representatives of the nurses old men, when a clear majority of nurses are women, most on the young side?
GavinZac
10/05/2007, 1:09 PM
Yeah but I'm for breaking these agreements.
You think every public employee should be able to negotiate their own wages? it'll be chaos.
BohsPartisan
10/05/2007, 1:11 PM
You think every public employee should be able to negotiate their own wages? it'll be chaos.
No I believe in Free collective bargaining.
GavinZac
10/05/2007, 1:21 PM
No I believe in Free collective bargaining.
All that leads to is "If the nurses get X, we want Y" - as already seen in this dispute, by na gardai. Union leaders are elected and if thats who the young women voted for, they can't then go on to claim oh, well, we didnt really mean it when we signed this agreement.
BohsPartisan
10/05/2007, 1:27 PM
Union leaders are elected
Don't know about the Nurses union in particular but in most cases Union General secretaries and other high officials are not elected. They are glorified bureaucrats who apply for the job the same way you and me applied for our jobs. Very hard to change this due to the undemocratic nature of many unions but needs to be done nonetheless.
As for your other point, so what? Workers in general have suffered under Partnership as their share of the national wealth substantially decreased. We did far better under FCB. Yet at the same time the country wasn't enveloped in Anarchy when we had FCB.
I don't like unions but no point dwelling.
I also believe Benchmarking was a scam that the public sector unions got away with just as the Celtic bubble popped in 2001-02 (i think).
However based on the fact the state has entered into a contract with the public sector unions on the benchmarking we stuck with it for now. It seems the nurses previously signed a contract accepting benchmarking as the wage dispute mechanism, they accepted a significant pay rise for this.
The Labour court previously ruled on this & agreed that the nurses have to negotiate within benchmarking. If the nurses want out of benchmarking then fair enough but they should give back their pay rise & start separate negotiations outside that process.
The massive downside of benchmarking is that if one sector gets a pay rise then everyone else is queuing up & government current account expenditure rises by billions.
BohsPartisan
10/05/2007, 9:58 PM
I also believe Benchmarking was a scam that the public sector unions got away with just as the Celtic bubble popped in 2001-02 (i think).
Benchmarking was a scam alright. Public servants have been ripped off royally by it. Its great for the higher grades but the ordinary schmoes get nothing out of it.
Clifford
10/05/2007, 10:44 PM
That's all well and good Pete, but there won't be nurses left to negotiate if it keeps up. They are already leaving the new maternity ward in the super hospital at CUMH, the patients are suffering as a result and there is nothing being done about it. Until numbers are increased it will get worse, until conditions become humane it will get worse.
It's not this issue that has made the nurses so vehement I keep saying.
Erstwhile Bóz
11/05/2007, 8:35 AM
Benchmarking was a scam alright. Public servants have been ripped off royally by it. Its great for the higher grades but the ordinary schmoes get nothing out of it.
Hear, hear, brother Partisan. I mentioned my weekly wage in the course of a conversation a while ago and I was accused of lying. I'm a clerical officer, like. People presume that civil service = megabucks.
Calcio Jack
11/05/2007, 9:25 AM
Hear, hear, brother Partisan. I mentioned my weekly wage in the course of a conversation a while ago and I was accused of lying. I'm a clerical officer, like. People presume that civil service = megabucks.
Not sure if I am bothered on one level asking you to respond as I suspect we are both "dug in " on our respective positions, anyway lets call them observations
(1) I find it difficult to take seriousely a your view that Public Servants should be entitled to enter into FCB, the reason being that I believe for any group of workers or employers to be allowed operate on that basis then "free market" rules need to apply e.g for a Public Servant market forces such as supply and demand, risk of losing ones job, inability to pay just don't exist.
(2) You mention that benchmarking was better for hose on higher grades than for yourself... well guess what in the private sector senior mangers , directors etc get paid more than those on lower grades, so hopefully as your career progresses so will your salary.
(3) The elephant in the room (1) lack of trasparancy re the whole benchmarking process and thus no indication as to what "weighting" was allowed for the by and large hugely more benefical pension schemes available in terms of both them being mainly defined benefit and indexed post retirement .The fact that many P/servants pay a much lower rate of PRSI on the basis that they can't be made redundant. The fact that P/servants have much better perks in terms of actually getting to avail of career breaks, maternity leave etc. Iknow many of the latter are by statute supposed to be available to all in the private sector.... actually getting to avail of them is oten a much different matter.
As I say IMO I find it very tiresome that whenever Public Servants talk about this subject they seem to want to dine a la carte of the best of what's on offer in terms of perks etc from both the private sector and the public sector.
I recognise do need public servants to run the services of the country and I've no problem with them been paid fairly... the problem is when the private sector is in efect being asked to stump up the cost but not allowed to have any sight of how the cost (benchmarking) was arrived at.
BohsPartisan
11/05/2007, 9:35 AM
Not sure if I am bothered on one level asking you to respond as I suspect we are both "dug in " on our respective positions, anyway lets call them observations
(1) I find it difficult to take seriousely a your view that Public Servants should be entitled to enter into FCB, the reason being that I believe for any group of workers or employers to be allowed operate on that basis then "free market" rules need to apply e.g for a Public Servant market forces such as supply and demand, risk of losing ones job, inability to pay just don't exist.
It was the case before so its not that outlandish. People have a right to bargain for better pay and conditions. CO money is rubbish, EO is not fantastic either at least with the cost of living. This is my main concern.
(2) You mention that benchmarking was better for hose on higher grades than for yourself... well guess what in the private sector senior mangers , directors etc get paid more than those on lower grades, so hopefully as your career progresses so will your salary.
The way the pay rises under benchmarking were worked out i.e. percentage increases mean that if you are lower paid your pay increase means less and less. 3% of next to nothing is still next to nothing.
As I say IMO I find it very tiresome that whenever Public Servants talk about this subject they seem to want to dine a la carte of the best of what's on offer in terms of perks etc from both the private sector and the public sector.
And I find it tiresome when people start talking about perks which simply don't exist. Decent pay and conditions are not perks.
the problem is when the private sector is in efect being asked to stump up the cost but not allowed to have any sight of how the cost (benchmarking) was arrived at.
The Private Sector V Public sector thing is a red herring. Workers in both sectors get screwed in general (while I recognise some people are doing very nicely for themselves) in one way or another.
(2) You mention that benchmarking was better for hose on higher grades than for yourself... well guess what in the private sector senior mangers , directors etc get paid more than those on lower grades, so hopefully as your career progresses so will your salary.
Think the point he was making was that higher grades got increases that were totally at odds that lower grades got. Where lower grades got about 6-10% (over the course of the agreement), Higher grades got 15-20%. I don't actually know the figures but it was significantly different
(3) The fact that many P/servants pay a much lower rate of PRSI on the basis that they can't be made redundant.
All public servants recruited after April 1995 pay full PRSI. No idea what percentage of total staff that is but within a few years it will be the vast majority
As I say IMO I find it very tiresome that whenever Public Servants talk about this subject they seem to want to dine a la carte of the best of what's on offer in terms of perks etc from both the private sector and the public sector.
I don't see the problem with saying on th internet or in pubs what you'd like to get froma job. Sure you have the odd militant person but neither the unions nor the majority of workers actually think they should have everything. Its exactly the same situation with private sector workers, but they're not as easy to define, or complain about...
I recognise do need public servants to run the services of the country and I've no problem with them been paid fairly... the problem is when the private sector is in efect being asked to stump up the cost but not allowed to have any sight of how the cost (benchmarking) was arrived at.
There's lots of civil servants who want the same answers. Like much of what happens in government we'll never know
Erstwhile Bóz
11/05/2007, 11:37 AM
:) I think you half-mixed me up with Bohs Partisan, there, Calcio Jack. I've no real problem with the rip-off as it currently stands, to be honest, as I'm not a greedy man; it just annoys me when people accuse us of earning the massive sums they discuss with their paranoid private sector colleagues, paid for out of their pocket.
Calcio Jack
11/05/2007, 12:00 PM
:) I think you half-mixed me up with Bohs Partisan, there, Calcio Jack. I've no real problem with the rip-off as it currently stands, to be honest, as I'm not a greedy man; it just annoys me when people accuse us of earning the massive sums they discuss with their paranoid private sector colleagues, paid for out of their pocket.
Which half ??:D
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