SPL teams in Setanta cup???

[Red Soldier]

http://elevenaside.com/setantacup/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=27119
I was just wondering what peoples views on this would be?
I think it would benefit the competition massively as well as boosting attendances and popularity.
Would this Cup appeal to SPL sides?
would it be an excellent way to show how our league has progressed
in recent years or would it just act as a shop window for scottish teams to poach our leagues top players?
your views gentlemen(and women)

[zenokelly]

SPL sides would never bother joining the Setanta Cup especially at a time when they are reaching the climax of a long season.

They would have to fly midweek and I'd say they would end up with a fixture pile up.
Neither would it benefit Scottish sides financially as it does our clubs.
They would get tiny crowds and it wouldn't help the Scottish game at all.

But that said, it would be a big boost to the cup. the eircom league clubs would get a bit bigger attendances, as I presume it would only be teams like Dundee Utd Dunfermline FAlkirk etc. that would be half interested in the competition.

[gufcfan]

This has been discussed on foot.ie before and I believe the general consensus was that the idea would never float.
SPL clubs would never bother with it.

On financial grounds adding some Scottish teams would possibly increase the amount that setanta would be willing to put up but I doubt it would be a big enough carrot for them, considering the inconvenience it would cause them.

Inviting teams because theres a chance they might be interested would in my view devalue the competition. Having a mid-to lower table team from the SPL would hardly be of any significant benefit.

If u were set on the idea one could invite teams that finished outside the european places possibly.

Does anyone know the views of scottish fans on the matter.

[CuanaD]

Actually, over time I'd like to see the Setanta expanded similarly to the rugby Celtic (magner's?) league, with Scots & Welsh teams competing, but it would need a revamp & we would all probably need to co-ordinate our leagues - I can't see them all agreeing to change to summer seasons tho'.

[kdjaC]

Winners should play the winners of the Kings Cup which involves Denmark Sweden Norway, be a glorified freindly but Setanta and DK would show it.


kdjac

[dcfcsteve]

There's another thread discussing this broad idea already, and it crops up every year.

Bottom line is that we haven't made the Setanta work in Ireland yet, so no point expanding it until that' cracked.

The lower level SPL clubs would add little to the competition. Seriously - think about. Who would really come out to watch Cork v Motherwell that wouldn't alreday come out to watch them play Linfield or Glentoran ?? It would provide something meaningful for the mid-level Scottish club s like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen though - but what would be in it for them ? We wouldn't draw them any fans, our stadiums and away crowds are sh!t, and they think they're better than us anyway....!

I do agree with the sentiment though that the increasing disparity between the EL and IL will eventually kill the competition off unless is changed.

Scottish clubs maybe in years to come, but not right now.

[Big Ears]

I would only think it would work if it involved the top Scottish sides and to do that Setanta would have to come up with some pretty big prize money(in comparison to what it currently gives to the competition .

An idea would be top 4 sides from LOI , Carnegie and SPL with there being a qualifying round that narrows it down from 12 teams to the 8 teams and two groups . Say 1st+2nd in Scottish team automatically through along with 1st in the North and LOI . The other 8 would play-off over two legs(Home&Away) for the remaining 4 spots , with teams being unable to draw a side from their own country in that qualifying round .

So for this year it would be Celtic , Rangers , Derry and Linfield through to the group stage automatically with Hearts , Hibs , St Pats , Drogheda , Cork , Glentoran , Portadown and Dungannon competing for the final 4 spots .

It would cost quite a bit to get the Scottish sides involved however it would raise the profile of the competition immensely and you would probably see bigger crowds at all games , especially Celtic and Rangers which would be sell-outs anywhere . However security would have to be tightened up quite a bit for the visit of Rangers to most of the LOI teams .

[Kivlehan]

If you could get the 3rd-6th finishers in the SPL in and 4 Welsh teams it would be very interesting. Like has been said the trick would be getting the Scottish teams wanting to do it and only money probably can do that. The Old Firm is probably an impossibility, but if you could get Hibernian, Hearts and two others into the tournament regularly that would give the Irish sides that chance to prove their worth and you may see an increase in what League of Ireland players can sell for to English and Scottish clubs, which would again pour more money into the league to give it a higher quality product over the long term. That's pretty much the main difference it would make, in raise the perceived value of the bigger League of Ireland teams and their players as well as Linfield and Glentoran, etc.

It's a great idea if the top Scottish teams who aren't competing in Europe or got bounced early from Europe can be persuaded with cash.

[dcfcsteve]

I would only think it would work if it involved the top Scottish sides and to do that Setanta would have to come up with some pretty big prize money(in comparison to what it currently gives to the competition .

An idea would be top 4 sides from LOI , Carnegie and SPL with there being a qualifying round that narrows it down from 12 teams to the 8 teams and two groups . Say 1st+2nd in Scottish team automatically through along with 1st in the North and LOI . The other 8 would play-off over two legs(Home&Away) for the remaining 4 spots , with teams being unable to draw a side from their own country in that qualifying round .

So for this year it would be Celtic , Rangers , Derry and Linfield through to the group stage automatically with Hearts , Hibs , St Pats , Drogheda , Cork , Glentoran , Portadown and Dungannon competing for the final 4 spots .

It would cost quite a bit to get the Scottish sides involved however it would raise the profile of the competition immensely and you would probably see bigger crowds at all games , especially Celtic and Rangers which would be sell-outs anywhere . However security would have to be tightened up quite a bit for the visit of Rangers to most of the LOI teams .

Rangers and Celtic having any vague interest in a tournament with our top sides, lety alone Dungannon and Piortadown ? Fantasy Football stuff here boys, I'm afraid. Sure - why not invite Man U and Barcelona whilst we're at it....

[gufcfan]

So for this year it would be Celtic , Rangers , Derry and Linfield through to the group stage automatically with Hearts , Hibs , St Pats , Drogheda , Cork , Glentoran , Portadown and Dungannon competing for the final 4 spots .



We were having an adult conversation until you showed up

[gufcfan]

Actually, over time I'd like to see the Setanta expanded similarly to the rugby Celtic (magner's?) league, with Scots & Welsh teams competing.

that is a non-starter straight-off. You cannot compare rugby in this part of the world with domestic soccer. Every year we have several teams capable of threatening to win a european trophy in the rugby. Audience figures are massive compared to anything domestic soccer would attract. And besides, the welsh soccer clubs, by welsh peoples own admission, are ****e

[Big Ears]

We were having an adult conversation until you showed up

I mentioned it would take a huge increase in prize money(probably to the point that Setanta just wouldn't do it) but if there was £1.5-2 million in prize money they'd probably enter . Rangers are in debt as far as i'm aware and would jump at the chance to bring in some more cash .
Yes they probably wouldn't play anywhere near their strongest line up but it's a better idea to have Celtic/rangers squad players+reserves than Motherwell or Iverness .

What would brining Kilmarnock , Falkirk , Dundee United and Motherwell bring to the competition(Scottish sides ranked 6th-9th currently) , attendances would still be lower than league games for all involved and in a way it would devalue the competition .

Obviously it's not the quality of the competition that would attract the Scottish clubs but prize money .

It could look something like this:

Group 1:
Celtic
Hearts
Linfield
Drogheda

Group 2:
Rangers
Hibs
Derry
St Pats

now obviously enough attendances for the Scottish teams at home(when playing Irish teams) would be quite poor compared to League games but the games against other Scottish teams would probably sell quite well . Games against Celtic/Rangers would sell out(for Irish teams) , games against Hearts/Hibs would sell very well and games between Irish teams would sell better due to the greater importance of the competition .

Prize money(of £2 million) could be divided as such:
£1,000,000-winner
£300,000-runner-up
£120,000-semi final losers
£85,000-teams in group that failed to make the semi's
£30,000-teams that didn't make the group stages

Yes it seems radical and quite possibly unfeasible but it's only a suggestion .

[endabob1]

What happened when Shels drew Rangers in Europe a few seasons back?

[Big Ears]

What happened when Shels drew Rangers in Europe a few seasons back?

winning 3-0 at 'home'(Tranmere Rovers ground) but lost the game 3-5 , lost the second leg 2-0 at Ibrox . So 7-3 to Rangers on aggregate .

[gufcfan]

winning 3-0 at 'home'(Tranmere Rovers ground) but lost the game 3-5 , lost the second leg 2-0 at Ibrox . So 7-3 to Rangers on aggregate .

Seriously??? I must have been in rehab when that happened, coz I don’t remember it

[gufcfan]

I mentioned it would take a huge increase in prize money(probably to the point that Setanta just wouldn't do it) but if there was £1.5-2 million in prize money they'd probably enter . Rangers are in debt as far as i'm aware and would jump at the chance to bring in some more cash .
Yes they probably wouldn't play anywhere near their strongest line up but it's a better idea to have Celtic/rangers squad players+reserves than Motherwell or Iverness .

Obviously it's not the quality of the competition that would attract the Scottish clubs but prize money .

now obviously enough attendances for the Scottish teams at home(when playing Irish teams) would be quite poor compared to League games but the games against other Scottish teams would probably sell quite well . Games against Celtic/Rangers would sell out(for Irish teams) , games against Hearts/Hibs would sell very well and games between Irish teams would sell better due to the greater importance of the competition .

Yes it seems radical and quite possibly unfeasible but it's only a suggestion .
I would be in favour of having celtic and rangers in the mix, even if only it was second string.

I’d imagine as well as the cash managers wouldn’t mind giving their fringe or youth players a lash in a competitive competition.

Somewhere along the lines of what happens in the English league cup with arsenal and pool, for example.

You could say that having a clubs second string being put out would devalue the competition, but I can see a lot of people coming out to see the little rangers *******s and likewise the rising stars of celtic.

It might be looked upon in a good light by celtic. Help consolidate their support in Ireland. Rangers ditto, for the north obviously.

I retract my earlier comments regarding the unfeasibility of such a move.

I still think that it is wishful thinking tho.

Perhaps the humbling givien to gretna not so long ago might help persuade the scots that we wont just roll over.

[Big Ears]

Seriously??? I must have been in rehab when that happened, coz I don’t remember it

It's quite some time back , 1998 Uefa Cup .

[pete]

Seriously??? I must have been in rehab when that happened, coz I don’t remember it

At least it seems the drugs are working now. :cool:

[gufcfan]

You'd think so, but i seem to have lapses roughly every fortnight,
when I jump into the car drive for an hour,
sit in the cold outside for an hour and a half.

I then sit back into the car even less satisfied than before. I then proceed to drive home (another hour) and pay €15 the privelege of all that... lol

[gufcfan]

At least it seems the drugs are working now. :cool:

Are you sure you dont need some urself 15,000 odd posts!

I know some guys...

We'll have to wait till we draw Limerick in the cup till i can get hold of them tho...

[pete]

Are you sure you dont need some urself 15,000 odd posts!
I know some guys...


I'll still with the spanish cold medicine for now. (Chemists in Barcelona will sell you anything...) No idea whats in it but sure it keeps me happy... :cool:

[dcfcsteve]

Suggestions that Rangers or Celtic would play in the Sertanta Cup with Irish clubs are pure laughable.

The money alone wouldn't be enough to attract them during their own seasons. And if they wanted money to play Irish teams, sure they'd just pitch up for a couple of friendlies in the Summer when they have no other games to worry about.

A serious reality check is required here, or this thread may as well be binned. Like I said - sure why not invite Man U and Barcelona and make the prize money £10m....... :)

[eirebhoy]

The only way this could include Scotland (and Celtic, Rangers) is if it was to replace the league cups.

It would mean that most of the Irish, Scottish and Northern Ireland teams won't play in a league cup. Would that be a big problem? They don't have a league cup in Italy but the Coppa Italia is two legged in every round, including the final.

Setanta would have to splash out to buy the rights for the 3 cups and television rights, which I suppose would only be a significant amount in Scotland.

The maximum amount of games would have to be 5 or 6 per team to avoid fixture congestions.

Teams would have to fly over from Scotland to Ireland and vice versa. Would this be impossibe?

Setanta are already involved in the 3 leagues. It's probably a big pipe dream though.

[kdjaC]

The only way this could include Scotland (and Celtic, Rangers) is if it was to replace the league cups.

It would mean that most of the Irish, Scottish and Northern Ireland teams won't play in a league cup. Would that be a big problem? They don't have a league cup in Italy but the Coppa Italia is two legged in every round, including the final.

Setanta would have to splash out to buy the rights for the 3 cups and television rights, which I suppose would only be a significant amount in Scotland.

The maximum amount of games would have to be 5 or 6 per team to avoid fixture congestions.

Teams would have to fly over from Scotland to Ireland and vice versa. Would this be impossibe?

Setanta are already involved in the 3 leagues. It's probably a big pipe dream though.

Eirebhoy in sensible post shocker!!!!


:D


kdjac

[eirebhoy]

Feck off. :D

To be honest I think this could easily involve Celtic and Rangers if we were all on the one island. If they could make it possible to be back at their clubs by the end of the night there's a possibility.

/edit - At the start of last season Celtic played in Japan 3 days before a game against Hearts. After the Hearts match they then played down in London against Chelsea and back up to play St Mirren 3 days later. If there's a bit of money in it for them they won't say no. :D

[endabob1]

winning 3-0 at 'home'(Tranmere Rovers ground) but lost the game 3-5 , lost the second leg 2-0 at Ibrox . So 7-3 to Rangers on aggregate .

Apart from the result I was thinking along the lines of why it was moved to Prenton Park in the first place.......

[dcfcsteve]

Apart from the result I was thinking along the lines of why it was moved to Prenton Park in the first place.......

Expectation of trouble, and a suspicion that Tolka wouldn't be able to adequately manage segregated supporters.

[Maynard]

Personally I think it'd be a good idea to try and lure the 3rd/4th place Scottish team, and failing that some of the respectable Welsh sides. Obviously the money would have to be upped, and obvioulsy having Celtic and Rangers would never be a runner (for the sake of competitiveness if nothing else)

But if the FAI could push on the promotion of the competition in this country and stablise its future, then I think incorporating other (ahem) Celtic leagues would IMO capture the imagination of more punters than its current format.

[galwayhoop]

if the money was there the old firm would join. currently the SPL winners (i.e. celtic or rangers) get less than £2m from TV money. now if they knew they could get €1m or so from playing 7 or 8 games, (plus gate receipts including, hopefully from their point of view, another full house against old firm rivals and boosting their profiles north and south) then they would jump at it. probably playing second team players in the group stages and then roll out the big guns for the semi's and final.

like eirebhoy said above celtic took on crazy friendlies in japan and england at the start of last season in between league fixtures - the reason was pure and simply financial.