Scotland v Ireland

[OneRedArmy]

Time will tell but MASSIVE missed opportunity imho to broaden the squad in advance of the World Cup.

Every other top 6 nation (France, South Africa, ABs etc) have been heavily using squad rotation for the last 6 months to ensure they have at least 2 players in each position with recent big match experience.

Eddie picking the same team shows a lack of confidence in the other squad players and crucially ignores what other top coaches have realised, ie that given the hugely physical nature of the game as its played today and with the non-stop nature of a World Cup with one game following close to another, injuries are inevitable.

Lets face it, Scotland are crap. If we are as good as we think we are and have any aspirations of beating France and Argentina, our 2nd XV should be able to beat them comfortably.

I would've made at least 5 or 6 changes.

[paul_oshea]

ok what would those changes be? what can he learn about fringe players that he doesnt already know? paddy wallace, mick odriscoll, trimble, reddan, murphy, flannery, boss bar injury ), cullen who else? thats the bones of a second 15......they have all played and showed what they are capable of.

What winning will do is add a 3rd triple crown in 4 years, give an extra boost to the morale and confidence of the team, along with creating a tighter 15 in terms of experience and match practice. we dont have the players capable of rotation like the ABs, so ensuring our BEST team has as many games under their belt as possible is essential, along with a big winning streak and winning mentality. we missed that against france, shows we are still missing a few things.

[OneRedArmy]

ok what would those changes be? what can he learn about fringe players that he doesnt already know? paddy wallace, mick odriscoll, trimble, reddan, murphy, flannery, boss bar injury ), cullen who else? thats the bones of a second 15......they have all played and showed what they are capable of.

What winning will do is add a 3rd triple crown in 4 years, give an extra boost to the morale and confidence of the team, along with creating a tighter 15 in terms of experience and match practice. we dont have the players capable of rotation like the ABs, so ensuring our BEST team has as many games under their belt as possible is essential, along with a big winning streak and winning mentality. we missed that against france, shows we are still missing a few things.
A triple crown isn't worth toffee when we claim to be in the top 3 in the world.

What do we know about the players above? Very little against top class opposition.

Our reserve fly half played against a scratch team made up of the some of the weakest sides in international rugby.

What we also know is that unless a decent cover centre is developed (Trimble imho) we are screwed if O'Driscoll gets injured (see French game). How many games has he played in the centre?! Repeat that comment for 2nd row, prop and a few other positions.

I'll say it again, injuries are a given in the World Cup and every other top team has realised this, whilst we're stuck in the last millenium with Eddie only recently working out that you don't need to be injured to bring on a replacement.

[finlma]

It would be ridiculous to change the team - I agree with Mr. O'Shea. It would be offensive to Scotland and the competition and we would probably loose just like we did a few years ago. It would be stupid to get complacent. Scotland will be giving everything and I reallly don't see us winning by more than 15 points with our strongest team.

I don't think anyone can question what Eddie does - look at what he has achieved.

[pete]

He is limited in the areas he can make changes although i'd like him to make changes earlier when game already won in future.

He could still have brought in the likes of Flannery, Neil Best & trimble off the bench.

There is not even half decent cover at Prop, Second Row, Out Half & Centre. Simon Best, Mick O'Driscoll & Paddy Wallace are not good enough.

[paul_oshea]

He is limited in the areas he can make changes although i'd like him to make changes earlier when game already won in future.


Yes, I would agree with this also.

[Student Mullet]

Prop, centre and out half* are the positions we have no cover for and there's little Eddie can do about it, we don't have the number of players other countries do.

Trimble isn't going to learn much from a single game at centre, if we were going to go down that route he'd play there for his province a bit, you don't learn your trade in a tripple crown decider. Even the two games against dross teams in the WC would a better place to do it. At the moment Shaggy has some experience there and is our emergancy cover and in the absence of a decent third choice, that's what we'll have to make do with.

*I don't include 2nd row because I think Leo Cullen's choice of club would be soon forgotten if we actually needed him and O'Kelly is still on the go.

[OneRedArmy]

How can Paddy Wallace isn't good enough when he's only had one cap and he was Man of the Match?! How do we know? He doesn't play at out half for Ulster regularly but he's our 2nd choice, so he needs more than one international game against poor opposition.

To whoever thinks Horgan is a better centre than Trimble, I honestly don't know what to say. Horgan has neither the change of direction, rugby brain and vision, nor good enough pass off both hands to be a world class centre. He's a great winger but that means nothing in the centre. Trimble does, ask anyone involved in Irish rugby and they recognise his talent.

When was O'Kelly or O'Driscolls last cap in the second row?

I think people on here are much too easily sucked into the spin.
Lets be honest, the Triple Crown stopped being important the year France joined and made it 5 Nations. Ireland have FAILED over the last 5 years by consistently being among the best 2 teams and not winning a single championship, never mind Grand Slam.

Ask the players privately, ask commentators and players from other countries and they will tell you that we have underachieved as a nation and lack the killer instinct.

We are a small nation with a small playing pool and this World Cup is a golden chance for us to get to the Final.

Having watched every home Ireland test for the guts of 15 years and been to a fair percentage of the away ones, we are easily capable of beating every team apart from New Zealand.

But you don't do that with XV men. You don't even do it with 20. We know our best XV, but it will be the performance of replacements and squad players who determine how well we do in the World Cup.

[paul_oshea]

We are a small nation with a small playing pool and this World Cup is a golden chance for us to get to the Final.

its not really though, i mean we would have to overcome new zealand or france to do that, and that is no mean feat....no matter how good or side, one because france are at home, and will be on fire come that match and 2. the all blacks are way ahead of anyone at this present time, so if we fail to beat france, which isnt a bad result if its close, we will finish where we normally finish i.e. quarter final place

[OneRedArmy]

its not really though, i mean we would have to overcome new zealand or france to do that, and that is no mean feat....no matter how good or side, one because france are at home, and will be on fire come that match and 2. the all blacks are way ahead of anyone at this present time, so if we fail to beat france, which isnt a bad result if its close, we will finish where we normally finish i.e. quarter final placeWe will most likely need to beat Argentina, France, Italy/Scotland and South Africa to get to the final.

Are you telling me beating France is beyond our ambition?

[OwlsFan]

A triple crown isn't worth toffee when we claim to be in the top 3 in the world.

Disagree. Triple crowns aren't as important as they used to be but are achievements nonetheless. Win what you can and let ratings look after themselves. I remember a time when they were like gold dust in the rugby world.

[pete]

The Triple Crown is meaningless. Who celebrates winning 3 from 5 games?

A win over Scotland is important bas a win but only fools would celebrate the Triple Crown. If Ireland celebrate on Saturday will show lack of ambition.

[paul_oshea]

its a barometer really, a measure, whatever you want to call it, two years ago pete you wouldn't have been saying that, but because we have won it a few times now we feel we are above it and it isnt much of an achievement, i wonder if you were to ask england at the start of this tournament would they be happy with a triple crown, i reckon they would have bit yer hand off......knowing that a triple crown would realistically mean 4 wins too.....


Are you telling me beating France is beyond our ambition?

not in the slightest, but its the same big ambitoin of beating them in teh grand slam which we havent done. What i am trying to say is, i beleive we have a tough run in, even if we lost to france which wouldnt say we are not in the top 3, we would then have new zealand. whereas if we had an easier draw, we could have had any of england, south africa or australia, which would be far easier overcome than a quarter against NZ and then end up in the same position as all other world cups, plus a far easier run in to the final.....because if NZ perform to the level at which they can in the world cup we will NOT beat them.

[OneRedArmy]

i wonder if you were to ask england at the start of this tournament would they be happy with a triple crown, i reckon they would have bit yer hand off......That point is as relevant as asking the Italians or the Scots would they be happy with 3 wins. Of course they would because they are poor sides.

As we showed, England aren't fit to lace our boots.

You are under-selling the ability of this Ireland team hugely.

I stick to my point, I'll be disappointed with anything other than getting to the final of the World Cup. Time to shed the happy loser mentality and achieve our potential before the current playing pool slips into retirement.

[OwlsFan]

The Triple Crown is meaningless. Who celebrates winning 3 from 5 games?

A win over Scotland is important bas a win but only fools would celebrate the Triple Crown. If Ireland celebrate on Saturday will show lack of ambition.

The "home nations" and most rugby fans must be all fools then because they have been celebrating it for over a century and even give a trophy now. Of course it is an achievement to beat the other 3 "home nations", especially for a Gaelic football/hurling nation like ours where rugby is way down the pecking order. Nothing wrong in celebrating it but that doesn't mean it's very important.

[pete]

The "home nations" and most rugby fans must be all fools then because they have been celebrating it for over a century...

But there was only 4 teams in the competition for many years before France was added. No other competition in the world would give a trophy for winning 3 from 5 games. The new trohpy has more to be with commercial hype that sport.

The winner of Scotland v England also gets a trophy.

:rolleyes:

[OneRedArmy]

But there was only 4 teams in the competition for many years before France was added. No other competition in the world would give a trophy for winning 3 from 5 games. The new trohpy has more to be with commercial hype that sport.

The winner of Scotland v England also gets a trophy.

:rolleyes:The winner of England v Ireland gets a trophy as well nowadays.

Agree with you Pete, its a non-entity and ther players feel the same way.

FFS they celebrated the end of Lansdowne after the Pacific Islands game with more excitement than they have the last few Triple Crowns.

[OneRedArmy]

The "home nations" and most rugby fans must be all fools then because they have been celebrating it for over a century and even give a trophy now. Of course it is an achievement to beat the other 3 "home nations", especially for a Gaelic football/hurling nation like ours where rugby is way down the pecking order. Nothing wrong in celebrating it but that doesn't mean it's very important.I also find your repeated reference to the "home nations" equally as archaic as the Triple Crown.

We've all moved on and we're Europeans now*!!


*although beating England still has its special pleasures.

[finlma]

The Triple Crown is meaningless. Who celebrates winning 3 from 5 games?


That's like saying winning the league is pointless. Who celebrates winning 33 from 40 games?

For a country like Ireland to win 3 Triple Crowns in 4 years is a magnificant achievement. I've been there for 2 of them and let me tell you its far from meaningless if you follow rugby.

[finlma]

The winner of England v Ireland gets a trophy as well nowadays.


Where did you pull that from? There's no trophy.

[Schumi]

Where did you pull that from? There's no trophy.That viking helmet yoke is still going isn't it?

[finlma]

That viking helmet yoke is still going isn't it?

Do they still give that thing out?? I haven't seen that awarded at a game for years. I stand corrected if they do and agree that it is ridiculous.

[OneRedArmy]

Where did you pull that from? There's no trophy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

[OneRedArmy]

Do they still give that thing out?? I haven't seen that awarded at a game for years. I stand corrected if they do and agree that it is ridiculous.
England "forgot" to award it to Ireland at Twickenham when they won there 3 years ago.

[geysir]

There was nothing to award, it didn't exist.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Eh it did and has done since 1988. The triple crown trophy is the one that didn't exist three years ago.

[Jerry The Saint]

That's like saying winning the league is pointless. Who celebrates winning 33 from 40 games?

For a country like Ireland to win 3 Triple Crowns in 4 years is a magnificant achievement. I've been there for 2 of them and let me tell you its far from meaningless if you follow rugby.

But unless France lose one of their remaining matches we won't have won the league. That's the really disappointing thing, to be consistently in the top 2 or 3 teams for each of the eight seasons of the 6 Nations but never take home the championship.

It's better than not winning the Triple Crown of course. :D Does anyone know why there was no Viking Hat Presentation after the England game?

Incidentally, France and Italy now compete for the Garibaldi Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Garibaldi_Trophy). Now that really takes the biscuit.

[geysir]

Eh it did and has done since 1988. The triple crown trophy is the one that didn't exist three years ago.
That's right

[Tazskool]

Winning the Triple Crown is massive :)
We need France to lose to England heavily...

but if that happens.. then it brings england into the picture..
Also we will need to pull off a good result against Italy.. but as they turned over scotland and now ahead against wales they are looking good this year..

Fingers crossed!"!

[pete]

Winning the Triple Crown is massive :)
We need France to lose to England heavily...

but if that happens.. then it brings england into the picture..
Also we will need to pull off a good result against Italy.. but as they turned over scotland and now ahead against wales they are looking good this year..

Fingers crossed!"!

East off the drink ;)

Delighted to see Italy beat Wales this afternoon. :cool:

[Schumi]

Delighted to see Italy beat Wales this afternoon. :cool:So was I but the ref's decision not to allow time for the line out at the end after telling Wales that he would was disgraceful.

[OwlsFan]

I also find your repeated reference to the "home nations" equally as archaic as the Triple Crown.

We've all moved on and we're Europeans now*!!


*although beating England still has its special pleasures.

My use of "home nations" was in inverted commas :rolleyes:

Anyone who discounts triple crowns has no sense of history and what it means to a small rugby playing country like Ireland. Ireland has won triple crowns in 1894, 1899, 1948 (39 years gap!), 1949, 1982 (33 year gap!), 1985 and then the plethora 2004, 2006 and 2007. Thus only 9 in over 100 years of rugby history. Familiarity has bred contempt in recent years but they are something to be treasured. Doesn't show lack of ambition and to say you shouldn't celebrate something achieved only 8 times before in 100+ years of history shows a startling lack of appreciation of history. We have just seen at Murrayfield how hard it is to win them.

Well done Ireland.

[geysir]

I see there was a bit of a rumpus about O'Sullivan's 'deliberate attempt to choke O'Gara' comments.
How would Eddie know if it was deliberate or not? It was okay to highlight the incident, there is no evidence for intent.
Or does it not make waves in the Rugby when an unnamed player, out of 2 possibles, is accused of murder on the pitch? Are the Scots not asking for an apology?
Will O'Gara's missus ever be able to look at him play again?

[OneRedArmy]

I see there was a bit of a rumpus about O'Sullivan's 'deliberate attempt to choke O'Gara' comments.
How would Eddie know if it was deliberate or not? It was okay to highlight the incident, there is no evidence for intent.
Or does it not make waves in the Rugby when an unnamed player, out of 2 possibles, is accused of murder on the pitch? Are the Scots not asking for an apology?
Will O'Gara's missus ever be able to look at him play again?O'Sullivan never uses 5 words when 4 will do, so I'd place a lot of weight in the fact that he came out and talked about it.

And if you've played rugby, you'll know yourself that it is readily apparent when someone is trying to deliberately injure you as opposed to being unfortunate to have fallen badly or ended up at the bottom of a ruck.

I also find it telling that the Scots have closed ranks and are denying everything, rather than someone coming out and saying that it was accidental.

[OneRedArmy]

My use of "home nations" was in inverted commas :rolleyes:

Anyone who discounts triple crowns has no sense of history and what it means to a small rugby playing country like Ireland. Ireland has won triple crowns in 1894, 1899, 1948 (39 years gap!), 1949, 1982 (33 year gap!), 1985 and then the plethora 2004, 2006 and 2007. Thus only 9 in over 100 years of rugby history. Familiarity has bred contempt in recent years but they are something to be treasured. Doesn't show lack of ambition and to say you shouldn't celebrate something achieved only 8 times before in 100+ years of history shows a startling lack of appreciation of history. We have just seen at Murrayfield how hard it is to win them.

Well done Ireland.Minnowism.

[reder]

Thought Ireland were very lucky on sat. Next weekend should be fascinating. Think we will beat Italy but not by much as they will be in great form but fear france will thrash the scots. The scots will fall to pieces away from home. I think wales v england will to too close to have any effect on the championship.

I think the 'deliberate attempt to choke O'Gara' comment was used to try and deflect the attention away from the poor performance by our lads. O' Gara made a meal out of it, lying on the ground, he was never out. He could have easily stood up but choose to lie on the ground.

Before anyone starts to get into the detail of choking or strangling, i have studied judo for most of my life and know exactly how to apply a joke properly. "Grogginess" comes after being strangled or choked out cold or almost being out cold. If the scots applied the choked properly to any degree, o' gara would have been out cold given the amount of time the scot applied the choke for.

[Lim till i die]

Before anyone starts to get into the detail of choking or strangling, i have studied judo for most of my life and know exactly how to apply a joke properly.

I don't get it :confused: :p

[pete]

Before anyone starts to get into the detail of choking or strangling, i have studied judo for most of my life and know exactly how to apply a joke properly. "Grogginess" comes after being strangled or choked out cold or almost being out cold. If the scots applied the choked properly to any degree, o' gara would have been out cold given the amount of time the scot applied the choke for.

The Scots are rugby players, not Judo experts. :rolleyes:

[Schumi]

O' Gara made a meal out of it, lying on the ground, he was never out. He could have easily stood up but choose to lie on the ground.Are you serious? Did you see the colour of him in the photos?

[geysir]

I think the 'deliberate attempt to choke O'Gara' comment was used to try and deflect the attention away from the poor performance by our lads.
Possibly, but does Eddie usually use those tactics in his post match interview? My feeling is that he was in some shock over the incident in where O'Gara went through a period of time in a strangled state,without air.

O' Gara made a meal out of it, lying on the ground, he was never out. He could have easily stood up but choose to lie on the ground.

Imo that's the least likely interpretation of the event, in fact, preposterous.
The evidence of the camers shows us clearly that O'Gara was limp and lifeless, that Hayes gave him full and immediate attention while the game was still going on and still in the balance. I would trust the evidence of the camera and Hayes instincts over yours on this matter.

[OneRedArmy]

Thought Ireland were very lucky on sat. Next weekend should be fascinating. Think we will beat Italy but not by much as they will be in great form but fear france will thrash the scots. The scots will fall to pieces away from home. I think wales v england will to too close to have any effect on the championship.

I think the 'deliberate attempt to choke O'Gara' comment was used to try and deflect the attention away from the poor performance by our lads. O' Gara made a meal out of it, lying on the ground, he was never out. He could have easily stood up but choose to lie on the ground.

Before anyone starts to get into the detail of choking or strangling, i have studied judo for most of my life and know exactly how to apply a joke properly. "Grogginess" comes after being strangled or choked out cold or almost being out cold. If the scots applied the choked properly to any degree, o' gara would have been out cold given the amount of time the scot applied the choke for.His eyes are lolling to the sides and his lips are blue in the photo in todays papers.

He was clearly out cold, therefore surely you have just reinforced the point?!

[paul_oshea]

yes well said geysir. sunday independent photos showed hayes literally putting his hands in his mouth to make sure he hadn't swallowed his tongue. he was out cold. no questoin.

and anybody with any sense of humour can apply jokes properly.

[OwlsFan]

Minnowism.

How is it "miinowism" if it has only been achieved 9 time in 120+ years or perhaps that's because we are minnows in the world of rugby? It is obviously something extremely hard to do for Ireland. Wait until this present crop of good players goes. We'll be back to hoping another triple crown will come round in 30 years time.

That under our belts, it's now the target to beat the Italians by 5 points more than the French beat the Scots. Hope all the games are on at the same time.

[endabob1]

Games are staggered for TV as they have been for the last (good)few years now.

[OneRedArmy]

How is it "miinowism" if it has only been achieved 9 time in 120+ years or perhaps that's because we are minnows in the world of rugby? It is obviously something extremely hard to do for Ireland. Wait until this present crop of good players goes. We'll be back to hoping another triple crown will come round in 30 years time.

That under our belts, it's now the target to beat the Italians by 5 points more than the French beat the Scots. Hope all the games are on at the same time.As Brent Pope and Conor O'Shea said we should base our expectations on how we perform against the current set-ups potential.

If you accept the hypothesis that we've been mostly crap in the past therefore any improvement on this is to be welcomed, then we'll never really improve.

You are correct that we will in all probability fall in the world rankings sooner rather than later as the current team goes past its peak (and that as a nation with small playing numbers we will struggle to produce enough quality replacements). However, surely that only reinforces the case that we should strive to reach our full potential now when we can.

This team has shown it has enough, on its day, to be the 2nd best in the world. However we have failed to show this form regularly enough.

Put basically, I don't see why the nations expectations should be materially lower than the teams.

[shakermaker1982]

hopefully the Scots do us a favour. The French were dreadful yesterday. The Italians at home always worry me, before the tournament started I thought it was the best time to play them because they have usually lost a few and fairly battered and bruised but two wins on the trot means their tails are up and a 6 points tally is not impossible for em.

[pete]

IRB World Rankings 12/03/2007 Position
(last week) Member Union Rating points
1(1) NEW ZEALAND 94.59
2(2) FRANCE 85.66
3(3) AUSTRALIA 85.55
4(4) SOUTH AFRICA 84.71
5(5) IRELAND 84.65
6(7) Ranking Climber ENGLAND 80.61
7(6) Ranking Faller ARGENTINA 79.61
8(9) Ranking Climber ITALY 76.05
9(8) Ranking Faller WALES 75.00
10(10) SCOTLAND 73.94

Surprised Ireland not past SA at this stage but no idea how those points calculated.

[OneRedArmy]

IRB World Rankings 12/03/2007 Position
(last week) Member Union Rating points
1(1) NEW ZEALAND 94.59
2(2) FRANCE 85.66
3(3) AUSTRALIA 85.55
4(4) SOUTH AFRICA 84.71
5(5) IRELAND 84.65
6(7) Ranking Climber ENGLAND 80.61
7(6) Ranking Faller ARGENTINA 79.61
8(9) Ranking Climber ITALY 76.05
9(8) Ranking Faller WALES 75.00
10(10) SCOTLAND 73.94

Surprised Ireland not past SA at this stage but no idea how those points calculated.
Had we beaten France we'd have been 2nd.

[Jerry The Saint]

IRB World Rankings 12/03/2007 Position
(last week) Member Union Rating points

2(2) FRANCE 85.66
3(3) AUSTRALIA 85.55
4(4) SOUTH AFRICA 84.71
5(5) IRELAND 84.65


Very tight there alright. Disgraceful that our group in the World Cup contains 3 of the top 6/7 teams. :eek:

Ridiculous that England would be No. 1 seeds based on their form 4 years ago - what's the point in having these rankings if they will never be used for any meaningful purpose:confused:

[geysir]

Surprised Ireland not past SA at this stage but no idea how those points calculated.
http://www.irb.com/EN/World+Rankings/Ranking+Explanation/
Unfortunatly it's FIFAesque, ie. not your 2 points a win 1 for a draw pint of plain garden variety league table.