Can Shels get a License? / Shelbourne €10 Million in Debt

[Banner]

In light of Shels recently documented difficulties (and thats putting it mildly!!!- no players, no manager and still mounting debt) would it still be possible for them to obtain a Uefa and also permier license?

Picture this for a hypothetical scenario. Shels get more money off the property developer who has agreed to buy Tolka. This cash clears debts to players and the taxman. The FAI can then say "they have no debts so here's your license". However I thought licensing was supposed to be a lot more in depth than this? Surely one of the reasons that Limerick didn't get one and that Waterford and Dundalk were relegated and Galway were promoted was becuase Galway had a realistic plan with demonstrable cash flows to show how they intended to finance a squad in the premier division next season.

So in light of that, even if Shels do clear their debts it's obvious to anyone that they have no plan whatsoever for the future and that even Waterford or Dundalk could make a stronger case than them for inclusion in the premier?

And that's not evn bringin up the whole UEFA license?

Your thoughts please?

[charliesboots]

Shels application for a license made in October/November needs to be scrutinised.

I can't see how it could have been truthful as they were awarded a Premier license. Seems bizarre given their financial situation.

I think there is a really possibility of Shels either having their license revoked or beginning the season with a points deduction. As for their European license......

[Jerry The Saint]

In light of Shels recently documented difficulties (and thats putting it mildly!!!- no players, no manager and still mounting debt) would it still be possible for them to obtain a Uefa and also permier license?

Picture this for a hypothetical scenario. Shels get more money off the property developer who has agreed to buy Tolka. This cash clears debts to players and the taxman. The FAI can then say "they have no debts so here's your license". However I thought licensing was supposed to be a lot more in depth than this? Surely one of the reasons that Limerick didn't get one and that Waterford and Dundalk were relegated and Galway were promoted was becuase Galway had a realistic plan with demonstrable cash flows to show how they intended to finance a squad in the premier division next season.

So in light of that, even if Shels do clear their debts it's obvious to anyone that they have no plan whatsoever for the future and that even Waterford or Dundalk could make a stronger case than them for inclusion in the premier?

And that's not evn bringin up the whole UEFA license?

Your thoughts please?


Even if they do get windfall funding from somewhere, there's only a couple of days left in the transfer window. With no coaching staff it would be a brave/foolish footballer who signed for them before the deadline. So what are their options then - try and pick through whoever's left from the out-of-contract list:confused:

http://www.pfai.ie/index.php?mod=one&id=15625&PHPSESSID=c67ef2c440b4376f9615f49f8d45de93

[Banner]

Christ so the FAI dont even need to Fudge they have it already!!! I assume the logic is that at the time the license was awarded they were debt free?

Can someone answer me this question though? Can you be given a premier license if you have outstanding debts to players? I thught this was one of the criteria? Am I wrong? becuase Shels surely must have had debts to players back in October November when they got their license.

[dcfcsteve]

Dundalk weren't relegated.

The UEFA licenses aren't issued until March, so they at least have some time there.

They should be asked to provide evidence now that they can meet the requirements of an FAI Premier license. If they can't, they should be relegated.

[Dodge]

I'm certain one of the criteria for the license was that no club could owe money to another club in respect of transfer fees. Shels owe Longford money for Sean Dillon. I'm sure pineapple stu could point out the many other ways in which they fail the criteria but I was under the impression the outstanding transfer fees point was a major one. There is no way they should have received one for next season, and everybody in the FAI knows this.

I don't think anything will happen as it would be too embarressing for the FAI to deny the league winners a place in the league, and europe. Don't forget, or course, there are substantial financial benefits for clubs entering the CL, even if they do so with an u18 side. If Shels are allowed play in europe, they effectively got off scott free

[Banner]

I have to say If Shels are allowed compete in Europe its a complete disgrace.

Can you imagine the barstoolers and journo's glee when Shels Select shcools 11 get thumped 12 nil on aggregate by some coal miners from Uzbekistan. It actually makes me pretty god damned angry just thinking about it.

And this is in the bright new dawn of the league merged with the FAI?????

The more things change.....

[lofty9]

I'm certain one of the criteria for the license was that no club could owe money to another club in respect of transfer fees. Shels owe Longford money for Sean Dillon. I'm sure pineapple stu could point out the many other ways in which they fail the criteria but I was under the impression the outstanding transfer fees point was a major one. There is no way they should have received one for next season, and everybody in the FAI knows this.

I don't think anything will happen as it would be too embarressing for the FAI to deny the league winners a place in the league, and europe. Don't forget, or course, there are substantial financial benefits for clubs entering the CL, even if they do so with an u18 side. If Shels are allowed play in europe, they effectively got off scott free


That's the problem here. We are going to face another season with admin problems if their is no action - something has to be addressed by the FAI before the start of the season in regards to Shels. If Delaney doesn't do something he should resign. The promised us a well run league - it's now up to them to delver. Are the FAI going to sit back and watch another Dublin City scenario? It looks like Shels couldn't afford the bus fare to Cork and Derry. It's time for the FAI to get a set of balls and do something about this situation.

[Poor Student]

Can you imagine the barstoolers and journo's glee when Shels Select shcools 11 get thumped 12 nil on aggregate by some coal miners from Uzbekistan.


You do know Uzbekistan is in Asia and not part of UEFA, right?

[WeAreRovers]

I don't think anything will happen

Wrong, Delaney has already begun cracking down on the feckless hacks who are making the FAI's tough job even more difficult. That and the concentrated efforts to rid the sport of "the scourge of hooliganism" plus the painstaking attempts to convince greyhound racing fans that LOI football is exactly the same thing. We couldn't be in safer hands.....

KOH

[charliesboots]

Shels were granted a premier division license on the 4th December 2006 to allow them to appear in the league in the 2007 season.http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/1204/licence.html

According to the FAI club licensing manual For FAI National League Season 2007 and UEFA Club Competitions Season 2007/2008 http://fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2007.pdf

to be awarded a license a club must (among many other things) have the following

- a team manger
- a tax clearance cert, valid for the date the application is made
- audited financial statements
- NO PAYABLE OVERDUE FROM TRANSFER ACTIVITIES
- NO PAYABLE OVERDUE TOWARDS EMPLOYEES
- future financial information covering the next season including, a budget profit & loss a/c, a budgeted cash flow statement plus others.
- Salary Cost Protocol
The licence applicant must supply information, which may be included as part of monthly management account reporting, in respect of the
Salary Cost Protocol. The Protocol requires clubs to spend a maximum of 65% of turnover on player salaries and wages in 2007. The Club
Licensing Department will work closely with all clubs to assist in the compliance of this criterion during 2007 to ensure that each club is fully
prepared for the criterion to be implemented in full in 2008 when strict sanctions will be applied if the protocol is breached.


Given all that I don't know how the **** Shels were awarded a prem license on the 4th December

[micls]

to be awarded a license a club must (among many other things) have the following

- a team manger
Does it have to have mary joseph and jesus in it....I think they could only afford Jesus :D ]

Was this before or after Fenlon left?


Given all that I don't know how the **** Shels were awarded a prem license on the 4th December

John Delaney is in fact Ollie Byrne........make up can do wonders these days

[charliesboots]

team manager, assistant manager and various other backroom staff are part of the criteria - you can however be given dispensation if you give an undertaking to have them in place by the beginning of the season. I just put it on the list for the craic tbh.

[Poor Student]

you can however be given dispensation if you give an undertaking to have them in place by the beginning of the season.

So in fact you cannot actually fail that criterion?:confused:

[micls]

So in fact you cannot actually fail that criterion?:confused:
Unless you dont have them in place by the start of the season....I presume then youre license can be revoked

[Banner]

"You do know Uzbekistan is in Asia and not part of UEFA, right?"

Yep I was only using poetic license to highlight the fact that as things stand just about any team will hammer Shels to the embarrasment of all LOI supporters.

[Jerry The Saint]

- NO PAYABLE OVERDUE TOWARDS EMPLOYEES


OK, so at the very least this bit has been proved legally following an appeal by Ollie that was rejected, right? Surely blows any remaining trace of credibility out of the water:confused:

A disgruntled hack should really run an exposé on the Shelbourne license - might get Delaney to put a little criticism at an awards p!ss-up into perspective?

If this was a freak occurrence that they nobody could possibly have seen coming then, maybe, you could cut them a little slack:rolleyes: - coming one year after a club that was granted a license could not fulfill it's fixtures surely someone at the top has to be held accountable (and not by being given a 6-year extension to their contract).

[Jamjar]

If Platini has his way Shels would be relegated.
He said ..." he supported automatic relegation for clubs who are unable to pay their debts, no matter how powerful they are.
"It can't be right that some clubs in some countries get relegated for being heavily in debt while others can go on and win the Champions League," he said.

Does the Shels situation mean that they were lying in their presentation to the IAG or was the IAG incompetent in their investigation of each clubs application.

[Student Mullet]

Does the Shels situation mean that they were lying in their presentation to the IAG or was the IAG incompetent in their investigation of each clubs application.To be fair, Shels got a low (possible the lowest?) mark from the IAG.

I see a date in March (after the season has started) being quoted in the papers as the next UEFA License deadline. My reading of this is that the FAI are stalling for time hoping that the problem solves itself or, failing that, the season has already started so it would be too difficult to relegate Shels.

[Tenderloins]

Surely there is something fishy with Shels application for a licence.
Considering Rovers were deducted 8 points in 2005 for discrepancies pointed out to the FAI then surely Shels should lose their licence and be docked points if not relegated too.
Indeed surel replacing them with Dundalk or Waterford would make sense if the FAI want to get more provincial teams into the top tier.

[charliesboots]

It has been brought to my attention that some members of shelsweb are reading this thread.....lads, you are fecked!!!

[Dodge]

AFAIK that date in march is the date for licences for clubs competing in europe.

[charliesboots]

AFAIK that date in march is the date for licences for clubs competing in europe.

Regardless of that Dodge the application they made for an 'A' License in October/November should be scrutinised. If they misled the Licensing Committe in any way they should face sanctions, either revoking their license (before its too late and the league has started), downgrading the license or a re-evaluation of their application.

[Banner]

Hmm I wonder if someone sent an email to the FAI poitning out all the discrepancies mentioned above would they do anything?

based on past performances Not likely!

This is Delany and the FAI's big test. If this is dealt with correctly (Shels relegated or at the very least deducted points for providing false information in their application) that would be a great sign of things to come. But being honest I can't see this happening.

My prediction is that Shels will keep their license to play in the premier. Not too sure about Europe.

[Dodge]

Easy pickings for any journalist willing to publish these facts.

Doubt it mind

[Trainee]

we all know shels are in serious trouble

They should at least get a points deduction like rovers did but I think they should be in the 1st divison next season with waterford in the premier

the only problem if the Fai put shels in 1st divison is shels would most likely go to court and the start of the league could be delayed for months

no mater whats happens its going to make the fai and the league look a joke

[dcfcsteve]

The annoying thing is - if any other club in the league, nay planet, were in Shels current position, and Shels had finished 2nd in the league, you can be 110% guaranteed that Ollie Byrne would be all over the media saying what a disagrace it was, and taking the FAI to court to have Shels take that other team's place in the CL.

I have less than zero doubt in my mind that that is what Oily Byrne would do.

Luckily for his shambles of a club, Derry City aren't as petty-minded and plain desperate as he is. Otherwise, we could apply the killer blow by having them miss out on their Champions League slot and the money from it that they so desperately need..

Then people wonder why myself and others aren't keen to join the rush to suck Ollie's dick now that he's ill. Evil little b@stard.... :mad:

[Jamjar]

The annoying thing is - if any other club in the league, nay planet, were in Shels current position, and Shels had finished 2nd in the league, you can be 110% guaranteed that Ollie Byrne would be all over the media saying what a disagrace it was, and taking the FAI to court to have Shels take that other team's place in the CL.

I have less than zero doubt in my mind that that is what Oily Byrne would do.

Luckily for his shambles of a club, Derry City aren't as petty-minded and plain desperate as he is. Otherwise, we could apply the killer blow by having them miss out on their Champions League slot and the money from it that they so desperately need..

Then people wonder why myself and others aren't keen to join the rush to suck Ollie's dick now that he's ill. Evil little b@stard.... :mad:

Is there not a likelyhood Derry might get the place anyway. I'm sure UEFA would have some say in Shels competing in CL given their predicament
or (pre-dick-ament).

[Risteard]

The annoying thing is - if any other club in the league, nay planet, were in Shels current position, and Shels had finished 2nd in the league, you can be 110% guaranteed that Ollie Byrne would be all over the media saying what a disagrace it was, and taking the FAI to court to have Shels take that other team's place in the CL.

I have less than zero doubt in my mind that that is what Oily Byrne would do.

Luckily for his shambles of a club, Derry City aren't as petty-minded and plain desperate as he is. Otherwise, we could apply the killer blow by having them miss out on their Champions League slot and the money from it that they so desperately need..

Then people wonder why myself and others aren't keen to join the rush to suck Ollie's dick now that he's ill. Evil little b@stard.... :mad:
I concur

[pineapple stu]

I'm sure pineapple stu could point out the many other ways in which they fail the criteria
Hmmm...am I now considered the bastion of knowledge here, or is this another nod to my "obsession" with this issue? ;)

As far as I can see (for what that's worth), you can have as many things wrong with your licencing application as you want provided you have a plan in place to fix it. That plan, it would appear, doesn't have to be overly realistic - hence Dublin City being broke and not getting any punishment.

In addition, even if Shels were denied a licence (or had it revoked), the licencing document notes that failure to have a licence "may" lead to a team being refused admission to the league. This is how Shamrock Rovers were only docked eight points after their licence was revoked.

In summary, the way licencing is written makes it such a sham that (a) I don't think it's possible to fail and (b) if you did fail, it's not necessary to take any action against you.


To be fair, Shels got a low (possible the lowest?) mark from the IAG.
Lowest bar Limerick, whose mark was never revealed.


Hmm I wonder if someone sent an email to the FAI poitning out all the discrepancies mentioned above would they do anything?
Eh...no. They'd just ignore it, same as they ignored Shels' application. You could have media articles about it and major protests outside Merrion Square, and they'd still ignore it. They don't care, and ultimately, there's nothing you can do about it unless you go down the Shamrock Rovers/Danny Drew legal route.

[dcfcsteve]

Is there not a likelyhood Derry might get the place anyway. I'm sure UEFA would have some say in Shels competing in CL given their predicament
or (pre-dick-ament).

It's up to each individual association to nominate their European representatives, not UEFA.

Ther are 52 footballing jurisdictions currently in Europe. UEFA have neither the time nor the inclination to pry into the detailed affairs of each and every one to determine who should or shouldn't be worthy of a European slot.

[Poor Student]

Considering Rovers were deducted 8 points in 2005 for discrepancies pointed out to the FAI then surely Shels should lose their licence and be docked points if not relegated too.
Indeed surel replacing them with Dundalk or Waterford would make sense if the FAI want to get more provincial teams into the top tier.

Rovers fans would be the first to tell you why they failed the licence, being in fact the ones who ratted the club out. They submitted the previous years accounts as the same ones for the following year. Where have Shels falisified information or breached licencing? Take into account the explanation given by Pineapple Stu.

[Dodge]

Having unpaid transfer fees? I@m sure there was a box they ticked, they shouldn't have....

;)

[Jamjar]

It's up to each individual association to nominate their European representatives, not UEFA.
.

Thats not true, the domestic champions of each national association can enter (plus up to 3 others depending on the associations ranking).
Also Article 1.05 deals with clubs that don't meet licence requirements,....." in this instance the national association will replace the club (in breach) with a club based on the rankings in the top domestic league championship."

So if Shels are found to be in breach of licensing, Derry will be entered into CL in their place.

If the above conditions are not observed UEFA may declare the entry invalid.

Read more here knowall
http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf

[nui-harp]

Have any newspapers even highlighted all these faults with Shels yet?? I seen an article about that lawyer comin in wit money but thats it!

[BohsPartisan]

You do know Uzbekistan is in Asia and not part of UEFA, right?

POTM!

[gotaroundbetter]

we all know shels are in serious trouble

They should at least get a points deduction like rovers did but I think they should be in the 1st divison next season with waterford in the premier

the only problem if the Fai put shels in 1st divison is shels would most likely go to court and the start of the league could be delayed for months

no mater whats happens its going to make the fai and the league look a joke

Give that man a cigar:D Why do people insist on getting the hopes of Dundalk folks up by mentioning them as promotion candidates Blues are next in line under the IAG system.All the clubs bought into it "no pushing from the back of the que".

[sniffa]

There is no way I could see Shels being relegated. But if it did happen neither Waterford or Dundalk should get promoted.
The relegation would be a punishment but there is no reason why any side in the 1st Division should be rewarded with promotion.
But its not going to happen anyway.
If Shels don't fold before the start of the year then I can see a points deduction coming their way.
If Olly got real and accepted the situation then he should request to be relegated to save being hammered week in week out.

[blackholesun]

Shels licenses should be reviewed, it has taken alot of time and money to build up the leagues euro coefficient, the fai should be taking steps to protect it. The fai would actually be doing Shels a favour by relegating them to the first division where they could rebuild ala Rovers and promoting Waterford back to the premier ...

but then they are probably afraid of that pr1ck maxi making a return visit to merrion square ... "its a faaaaaaaaaaaaarce"

bhs

[dcfcsteve]

Thats not true, the domestic champions of each national association can enter (plus up to 3 others depending on the associations ranking).
Also Article 1.05 deals with clubs that don't meet licence requirements,....." in this instance the national association will replace the club (in breach) with a club based on the rankings in the top domestic league championship."

So if Shels are found to be in breach of licensing, Derry will be entered into CL in their place.

If the above conditions are not observed UEFA may declare the entry invalid.

Read more here knowall
http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf

The bit that says "the national association will replace the club.." is the key here.

It doesn't say UEFA will replace them. It puts the onus on the individual FA's - who have had responsibility for nominating Euro reps all along.

[Dr.Nightdub]

Yeah but the rule he's quoted doesn't exactly leave much room for discretion, does it?

[Mental Man]

Dosent this really show up how much of a shambles the whole IAG points criteria thingy laid out by the FAI was, jesus we had everything here in order, no debt, no tax, players paid up, good ground facilities,future plans for the club going forward, the new amalgamation between the WIT and the FAI with the scholarships etc..
The supporters down here are howling for Delaneys BLOOD !!!!!

[Dodge]

Yeah and you got loads more points off field then Shels. Who won the league BTW...

[charliesboots]

Shels €12 million in the red according to Newstalk this morning and facing relegation to the First Division. The FAI have apparently ordered an investigation into their account until 30 November 2006 to see if their licensing application was correct. Maybe people do read this board!!

[Dodge]

Its in the Star apparently. Haven't read it

[Terry]

Was just going to post questioning if the FAI had made any sort of statement concerning shels?

Does it say anything in the rulebook concerning there position as it stands (punishment wise)?

[charliesboots]

Was just going to post questioning if the FAI had made any sort of statement concerning shels?

Does it say anything in the rulebook concerning there position as it stands (punishment wise)?

They don't know. Ollie has the rulebook in hospital with him and won't let anybody see it.

[Sidefx]

http://www.thestar.ie/:eek:

[Terry]

http://www.thestar.ie/:eek:

link doesnt work

[Sidefx]

try this

http://www.thestar.ie/