Making football middle-class friendly

[BohDiddley]

Some commmentators recently have argued that Irish football needs to emulate rugby and attract a ‘middle class’ audience. In this piece, which focusses on the impending smoking ban in British stadiums, Rod Liddle answers those who think the way forward is to kill off the culture of the live game...


It is the passion and fervour and partisan loyalty — dangerous things! — that the middle class find most threatening about football, and so, gradually over these past 20 years, they have been eradicated from the game almost entirely. Football is a congenial entertainment best viewed through the medium of some kind of box (the directors’ box, for the chosen few, or the box in the corner of your living room for the rest), seems to be the attitude.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well the middle classes certainly have more money. But is EL football going to distract them from their burgeoning consumerism and cocaine habits? :D

[BohsPartisan]

But is EL football going to distract them from their burgeoning consumerism and cocaine habits? :D
It didn't get in Barry Ryan's way. :D

[CollegeTillIDie]

It didn't get in Barry Ryan's way. :D

He wasn't playing for UCD at THAT time so I couldn't possibly comment! :D

[Dr.Nightdub]

I'm not sure that chasing the middle class is even a strategy that's worth pursuing - they're probably the most event-driven group in terms of leisure activities and the most promiscuous in terms of loyalties. Just look at the way certain pubs become trendy but only stay that way for a while. This may not apply as much outside Dublin, where there's only one team in a town so local identities are stronger.

It's all a bit academic anyway, as the LoI doesn't have the facilities that would stop middle class people turning up their noses.

[Mr A]

Am I the only person that cringes every time class is brought into football discussions?

We should be looking to attract people from every walk of life to the league. End of story.

[BohsPartisan]

Am I the only person that cringes every time class is brought into football discussions?

We should be looking to attract people from every walk of life to the league. End of story.

There is no such thing as the middle class anyway.

[pineapple stu]

Is this an admission that everyone here is a lower-clas scumbag?

[floatinghoop]

Middle class people do go to LoI games. So do working class people. The problem is, we don't get enough of either.

[Eoingull]

What makes a person middle class anyway? Some of the most uncultured people I know are those with the most forced up-their-arse accents. "Family friendly" is probably a much better sales pitch. I'd rather clubs just looked to the "community", and didn't descriminate between any potential punters...which is pretty much the way it is now.

[BohsPartisan]

What makes a person middle class anyway?

Well objectively speaking, the middle class(es) are the peasantry and the Petit Bourgeois (shopkeepers, small business people) both are pretty small now (in the Western world at least), though over the 20th C there was a mini industry in trying to convince anyone who wasn't destitute they were middle class.

[Mr A]

Well objectively speaking, the middle class(es) are the peasantry and the Petit Bourgeois (shopkeepers, small business people) both are pretty small now (in the Western world at least), though over the 20th C there was a mini industry in trying to convince anyone who wasn't destitute they were middle class.

So, if you worked in that industry what class were you in?

[BohsPartisan]

Well depends. If you are the owner of the class factory then you're bourgeois. If you sell your labour to the owner of the class factory you're working class - upper end of but class comes down to your relationship to the means of production not the number on your payslip.

[Eoingull]

There's a very funny (yet acutely observed) Billy Connolly joke re. the middle classes. Hmmm, I'm not sure what DVD it's on though...

[dcfcsteve]

Talk of class and football is always painful to listen to. :o

Football is the world's biggest sport. It is the national sport in more countries than any other game. I doubt there is a single genuine country where it isn't played. It has literally billions of viewers and players across the world. Yet some people insist on claiming it for only one class, just becaue some teams used to primarily attract pit-workers from grim northern English cities, or dockers from the less salubrious part of Buenos Aries.

The irony is that footall was created/codified on the public school playing fields of Eton, Harrow, Rugby etc in England. You only need to listen to the voices of people like Alf Ramsey to appreciate that football never had the pure working class soul that misty-eyed nostalgia addicts would like us all to believe it had. And it's original roots were ironically about as far from being working class as you could get.

Read a good article yesterday about how the design of English stadiums has lead to the Premiership being the richest league in the world. The move to all-seater stadiums post-Hillsborough (and before the rest of world football) began the process of football being priced out of the reach of the poorer sections of society. With success in football now all about money, the days of grandad getting in for 1 and sixpence whilst lifting you over the turnstiles are long, long gone. For the majority of society in countries like England and Ireland, however, modern football is still affordable to varying degrees. Certain teams less so - but if you really want to watch live football, you will be able to affiord to do so.

What has really killed the atmosphere at football is the fact that it attracts every section of society - including a lot of people who see it as no different than a trip to the cinema or a museum, who have no genuine heartfelt interest in the team they are watching. It's not about class - it's about falling victim to its own success.

[Magicme]

Does that mean that upper class people like me will no longer be welcome??

Huh!

Eoingull u hit the nail on the head, should be classless and all embracing of the community. Its like we have kids in our mini leagues from the poorest backgrounds and kids whose Mummy & Daddy are Solicitors & Doctors etc. Sport should have no boundaries.

[dcfcsteve]

Does that mean that upper class people like me will no longer be welcome??

Huh!

Eoingull u hit the nail on the head, should be classless and all embracing of the community. Its like we have kids in our mini leagues from the poorest backgrounds and kids whose Mummy & Daddy are Solicitors & Doctors etc. Sport should have no boundaries.

No-one in Monaghan is upper-class. Self selectively so....... :D

;)

[NY Hoop]

Am I the only person that cringes every time class is brought into football discussions?

We should be looking to attract people from every walk of life to the league. End of story.

Spot on. Who cares where a person is from, what colour, religion or creed they are as long as we can get more through the gates? To me it smacks of racism the constant finger pointing of what "class" you are. Horsesh1t.

Better facilities will attract people for a start.

KOH

[Magicme]

No-one in Monaghan is upper-class. Self selectively so....... :D

;)


You would think.....but there are a few and there are alot who think they are!! :D

[dcfcsteve]

You would think.....but there are a few and there are alot who think they are!! :D

Which of those 2 groups do you fall into then. Me suspects the latter..... :p ;)

[Magicme]

Naw am neither....am upper middle class! We are new money dont you know!

[dcfcsteve]

Naw am neither....am upper middle class! We are new money dont you know!

Holy fcuk - now even the culchies have money.......! :eek:

Should lead to some interesting retail trends though...

:D

[Magicme]

Oi less of the culchieism! Not that am a cluchie....am a refined young lady from the upper echelons of Monaghan Society with Tyrone royalty in my breeding!

[dcfcsteve]

Oi less of the culchieism! Not that am a cluchie....am a refined young lady from the upper echelons of Monaghan Society with Tyrone royalty in my breeding!

Oh - you're a woman ! Sorry - didn't realise....

'How you doin'......? :)

[Macy]

Would've thought Rugby always was middle class in this country, and their success has been to stretch it's appeal out of that, particularly Leinster.

The gentrification of football has destroyed so many of the elements that I love about football supporting, I'd hate to see a similar move in this country. All seaters have destroyed atmosphere - they've taken away the pay at the gate, stand and sing with your mates that supporting football used to be about.

The only element that the clubs and Government introduced from the Taylor Report was the all seater rule. The Tories saw football as another way to get at the working classes, after they'd destroyed the unions. While class may not be relevant to our league going forward, you can't seperate it from what happened in England.

[Magicme]

Oh - you're a woman ! Sorry - didn't realise....

'How you doin'......? :)

Feck off! :D

[BohDiddley]

Read a good article yesterday about how the design of English stadiums has lead to the Premiership being the richest league in the world. The move to all-seater stadiums post-Hillsborough (and before the rest of world football) began the process of football being priced out of the reach of the poorer sections of society.
Where'd you see that?
I agree that this talk of class is tosh, but that was the spin that came across very strongly at the recent 'Future of Football' debate at DCU.

[dcfcsteve]

Where'd you see that?
I agree that this talk of class is tosh, but that was the spin that came across very strongly at the recent 'Future of Football' debate at DCU.

Think it was the English Sunday Times.

I put the recycling bag out earlier, but it was still there when I came in a few mo's ago. Will bring it back into the house and see if I can dig it out.

[dcfcsteve]

The Tories saw football as another way to get at the working classes, after they'd destroyed the unions. While class may not be relevant to our league going forward, you can't seperate it from what happened in England.

Macy - that is one of the most absurd and politically fantastical things I have ever read on this site. And that is certainly saying something ! :eek:

The Tories saw football as a way of getting at the working classes ? Hence they introduced all seater stadia...? Are you really typing that with a straight face ?!? I'm embarassed for you dude... :o

The Tories were, and still are, many bad things, and I never have and never would give them an ounce of support. But you've completely lost the head with your political conspiracies here. The Tories clipped the Unions (I wasn't aware they'd been destroyed !? I mean - they still own boat loads of big buildings all around where I live, and haven't they just been considering going on strike over at BA...!?) because it fitted their economic aims. Rightly or wrongly, they saw that Britain had to restructure economically to fit the needs of a changing world, and they correctly summised that the Unions would be the single biggest stumbling block to them achieving this structural economic aim. Hence why they dramatically curtailed their power.

As for them having it in for the working classes - it was the feckin aspirational working classes who kept Thatcher in power you moron ! Hence why they brought in the Right to Buy Council homes etc. And who do you think the Tories are anwyay - Polo fans ? Just like the rest of Britain, most of them support football and football teams themselves..

Idiotic pseudo-left wing Trotskyite chip-on-shulder nonesense of the highest order. Seriously embarassing.... :o

[dcfcsteve]

Feck off! :D

You wouldn't have a photo of yourself in a Monaghan top by any chance, would you........?

[WeAreRovers]

Macy - that is one of the most absurd and politically fantastical things I have ever read on this site. And that is certainly saying something ! :eek:



As usual, you're the one that's wrong but choose to call Macy's post "absurd" and "fantastical" instead. I understand the tactic but we can see through it.

In Macy's defence (not that he needs one) I give you Colin Moynihan, ID cards, the Hillsborough whitewash, and yes, the Taylor Report.

Thatcher was delighted by Heysel as it gave her a chance to demonise the young, working class, white males who went to football. This was an extension of her decimation of the traditional working class industries and all that "no such thing as society" rubbish.

Obviously you are free to choose to deny that this was class motivated and that football has always been the working man's game all you like. Similarly you can decide that all-seater stadia, the Premiership, Sky etc have not driven the working class away from the game. You'd be wrong though.

KOH

[pete]

What is working class anymore anyway? Are we all one huge middle class now? A trades person is probably more likely to earn more money than a lot of professionals so classes & these phrases mean nothing.

The eL is in catch 22 situation. We need bigger crowds as than means more atmosphere & more atmosphere means bigger crowds. On per person basis the eL has as good armosphere as anything out there. If we could get even half the crowds of rugby would have better atmospheres. At the same time the eL cannot rely on core base support anymore as too many games & too many distractions so need more support from people who may only do 5 games a year...

[sonofstan]

Are we all one huge middle class now? .

No we're not. There isn't and never has been a perfect fit between income and class; you don't become middle class the minute you start paying the higher rate of tax - and there are still working- class people - even in Ireland; come down to a football match and I'll introduce you to some (clue: they'll be the well dressed ones)

[dcfcsteve]

Obviously you are free to choose to deny that this was class motivated and that football has always been the working man's game all you like. KOH

This one line is enough to blow everything else you say out of the water.

Football has not "always been the working man's game".

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it was first created/codified at the most elite public schools in England - the likes of Eton, Charterhouse, Harrrow and Rugby. It remained upper-class property at public schools and Universities for a number of years, whilst slowly trickling down to the masses. And how did it trickle down the social scale ? Well - interestingly, via that favourite transfixation of a number of Rovers fans with regards Bohemians : i.e. the British military. Posh kids from the poshest schools in England went on to become Posh Captains and Majors in the British army, where the ordinary working class grunts finally got their first taste of the beautiful game. Darned unsporting really, considering it 'had always been their game' in the first place...

And how did football then make its way around the world ? Well - for very many it was via that old friend the British army again. Its not an accident that football in Ireland became called 'The Garrison game'.

In other parts of the world, however, it started to filter out via British businessmen, academics, students etc. Argentinian football was largely established by a Scottish schoolmaster who had set up an English High School in Buenos Aries. Football was brought to Brazil by a public schoolboy form Charterhouse, who's father was an English businessman involved in developing that country's rail network. All thoroughly working class characters, I'm sure you'll agree...

So football has clearly NOT always been the working man's game. It actually began life as the posh kid's game, before going on to become the posh soldier's game, then the colonialist soldier's game and the international businessman's game, before finally trickling down to fully involve the numerically greater working classes after about 3 decades.

So it is clearly not myself who is playing the historical revisionist to push some tired old class-driven political agenda :o

Anyways - why the desperate need to brand football as the property of one class or another anyway ? Why can't you just accept that football is the property of all classes and none ? A sport cannot be as big and as global as football without that being the case.
___

As for those crazy Tories looking to remove any glimmer of fun from the working class man's life, you need to look at theri actions in the context of the reality of the times. Endemic violence was destroying English and Scottish football in the 1970's and 1980's. There had been a number of major internationally shameful incidents regarding violence, stadiums etc (Heysel, Hillsborough), with English clubs banned from Europe as a resuilt, and the national team often a mere punch or stones throw away from following them. NO government at that time would have stood idly by in the face of this, and nor would they have been allowed to by the electorate/opposition parties.

The measures the Tories brought in to tackle the huge problems in English football may have been to varyigng degrees misguided. But to assert that their motivation was primarily a desire to be a killjoy for the working classes is the type of insane political history you thankfully don't hear any more outside of the pages of 'Socialist Worker newspaper. I suppose you likewise think that the current Labour government's misguided anti-Terrorism rules are all destined to destroy Islam....?

And bizarrely - by method or luck - the football legilsation brought in to tackle football hooliganism, stadia etc did successfully remove violence from stadiums (you'll never stop the nutters who want to meet up elsewhere) and restore to a large degree the reputation of English club football.

[sonofstan]

So football has clearly NOT always been the working man's game.

Nietzsche says something rude somewhere about philologists - of which he was, originally one - thinking that they can prove what a word means by telling you where it came from; telling you what something meant 'originally' tells you nothing about what it means within a language now; in just the same way, telling us that football was invented by toffs does nothing to alter the fact that for most of the time, in most of the world, its been a mass sport and most often played and supported by the urban working classes.

[BohDiddley]

Wow! And all this because Rod Liddle can't have a fag! I'm sure there's a just-obscure-enough term for this kind of conversation on the net, that everyone understands after they've looked it up/invented it on wikipedia.
In the original post, I was rather focussing on the mention of the telly as part of all this, and should have taken more care with the title.
Liddle is talking about foot.ie's most hated -- BARSTOOLERS!

[Jamjar]

This one line is enough to blow everything else you say out of the water.

Football has not "always been the working man's game".

blah blah blah.

That was an essay on how football became popular around the world. Football became the game of the working class when the oiks decided that they'd like to get paid for playing it. So just like the divide between rugby league and rugby union in england, the workers went professional and those exploiting them thought this frightfully common and not living up to corinthian values, and wanted nothing to do with professionalism.

[Billy Lord]

Steady on there, Steve! Hillsborough had nothing to do with hooliganism/violence and everything to do with police incompetence. There is no evidence that 'safe' seating is less dangerous than 'safe' terracing.
And the lessening violence at games in Britain is down to good policing, not seating. Which is something the Gardai could do with learning.

[BohsPartisan]

Billy's rught the Hillsborough disaster was proven to be caused by the coppers plus the fencing that used to be in front of terracing in those days.

[kingdom hoop]

a greater density of people(terracing) in one area has to be more dangerous than seating. if you've ever been in a crowded terrace you must have been swaying from time to time. if you are sitting down there is no such danger unless you've had 10 pints. the evidence of improved safety would be the lack of any disasters. what is probably more dangerous now though is standing in the seated area. safe terracing would be the ideal but, as the argument goes, isnt desirable to the middle class. rather than class distinction the emphasis should be on the supporter. those who want to stand,sing and take part should have terraces available, while those that want their comfy seats and prawn sandwiches can pay 3 times for the 'privileged' comfort. i'll be back to ye with the stadium design, maybe lower tier would be terrrace and upper seats so the middle classes can peer down their noses?

an article in today's irish times mentions blackburn are slashing their ticket prices, clearly football hasnt been made friendly enough to the middle class of balckburn, now the club is going crawling back to proletariat.

its mentioned above that rugby should be targeted for supporters but surely its the gaa. 80,000 are going to croker on a cold saturday in february for an inconsequential league match...bigger attendances at provincial cup matches in january than big eL games...these people are obviously sports-mad but wouldnt dream of going to an eL match, maybe its because the toilets are dirty?

[Soper]

GAA grounds aren't that good

[kingdom hoop]

i was being sarcastic really, clearly its not for the facilities the people go, nor the fare on offer

[Soper]

Ah, sorry about that.

I think it's a number of factors, including an inferiority complex, the Irish males love of celebrity and a male version of 'Coronation Street' so to speak, and the price of Fig Rolls in Syria.

[pineapple stu]

a greater density of people(terracing) in one area has to be more dangerous than seating....the evidence of improved safety would be the lack of any disasters.
Have to disagree here.

Stadium disasters were never that common to begin with. They've created an aura so that they still trip off the tongue today - the Bradford fire, Hillsborough, Heysel, the Ibrox Disaster, etc. So the fact that there haven't been any in the last 15 years or so doesn't actually mean the move to all-seating did anything to solve the problem. Better security did - proper allocation of tickets, no fences and harder for hooligans to congregate and arrange trouble. Better facilities did - no wooden stands a la Valley Parade and Ibrox.

There was an incident in Africa a few years back where an area of a ground was grossly oversold. As everyone piled in, it became evident there wasn't room to hold them all, and a crush ensued. As people tried to get out of it, police overreacted and fired tear gas. 50 or so people died. Sound familiar? It's Hillsborough all over, tear gas aside. The only difference? It was an all-seater ground. So we can see that actually the problem wasn't with the terracing.

More proof that terracing - properly organised - is safe? It's widely used in Germany, was used in Lansdowne right to the end, is used outside the top two flights in England - no problems with it.

One other point - you mention the trouble in getting out of somewhere if you're in the middle of a load of people. Imagine how more difficult it is if you add in a load of plastic seats to hinder your way.

Your point about safe terracing is obviously valid, and people should have the right to choose.

[Billy Lord]

a greater density of people(terracing) in one area has to be more dangerous than seating.
Not so, as you're confusing overcrowding with density. Imagine a panic in a seated area - bedlam, with people climbing over each other and falling over seats. It's much easier to clear a terrace than a seated area because people are already standing and there are considerably fewer obstructions.
As for the middle-classes, I'd reckon at Rovers it's about 50-50 between proles and posh; what draws people to the EL is the need for live football and a sense of community. The key is to reach beyond that core support and start attracting people who just want a good night out. Which can't even begin to happen until clubs get their act together and make the EL much more attractive.
Now, where did I leave that magic wand?

[dcfcsteve]

That was an essay on how football became popular around the world. Football became the game of the working class when the oiks decided that they'd like to get paid for playing it. So just like the divide between rugby league and rugby union in england, the workers went professional and those exploiting them thought this frightfully common and not living up to corinthian values, and wanted nothing to do with professionalism.

Ergo it has clearly not "always been the working man's game". I rest my case....

[Magicme]

You wouldn't have a photo of yourself in a Monaghan top by any chance, would you........?

hahahahahahaha

Go on people tell him how scared he would be if he saw that!!!!! :D