Shels could lose European place

[pineapple stu]

The Mail and IoS both running stories today that Shels may well not get their UEFA Licence and therefore not be allowed into Europe. Derry would be in the CL and Pat's in the UEFA.

I'd be kind of sceptical as this would mean licencing would be being applied properly, which is a rather massive break from tradition.

It's at times like this that I look back to Shels fans slating UCD earlier in the season for living within our means and equating that with a lack of ambition and break my sh!te laughing.

[Terry]

The way things have been turning out, we must be all hoping this will happen for the co-efficiency points anyway!!!!

On another point, is it just me or has the number shels supporters posting here gone down at an unreal rate in the past week alone ?

[A face]

The way things have been turning out, we must be all hoping this will happen for the co-efficiency points anyway!!!!

Definitely for the points anyway.


On another point, is it just me or has the number shels supporters posting here gone down at an unreal rate in the past week alone ?

Dont rub their noses in it, it can be seen as trolling.

[dublin15bohs]

realy hope this happens.

[Red4Eva]

i think every1 would be delighted if shels didn't get into europe. forking out money to go out to albanian & get hammered isn't gonna help shels cause

[wws]

they are replaced by the cup runners up
saint pats if they fail the license

"restorative justice" in action?

[Gareth]

I don't really post that much here anymore, and I havent really in quite a while. I do reply to the odd thread. The thing is I post on forums of clubs when I have some questions or wanna chat about something relating to their club, but no matter what a Shelbourne fan says on here now, it will get an automatic number of posts about how delighted everyone is the club I support is going down. Personally I can do without being stereotyped as your Footie impression of a Shels fan (ie head in the sand, delights in boosting about overspending, etc etc), which is not the real reflection of a true shels fan at all, but then again very few shels fans I would rate as having a valid opinion post here.

Shels are quite clearly in a very bad state, but I would be surprised if there are not a number of other clubs following behind us on that. I do not agree with overspending to achieve your target if overspending means freefalling if you fail to achieve them. I firmly believe Eircom League clubs should be run as proper businesses and some have awoken to that fact, others, still haven't. I am not an apologist for the club I support. I am not blind to the events and the spending that has occurred. I would like to ask a few people on here what EXACTLY you can do about it as a normal waged individual, especially when one man owns 99% of the business, and your opinion is about just that ,an opinion.

I for one, like alot of other club fans and even the clubs I dislike for whatever reasons, I would never want to see another club go out of business, cos there are always decent fans who maybe have family traditions in clubs, or great memories and I for one would think that is reason enough to never want to see a club die. Ollie Byrne is not Shelbourne FC. He owns it and runs it now, but Shelbourne FC is the fans, the history, etc etc. If I had the money I'd try rescue it, but unfortunately I don't and no one I know does.

[khoop]

I don't really post that much here anymore, and I havent really in quite a while. I do reply to the odd thread. The thing is I post on forums of clubs when I have some questions or wanna chat about something relating to their club, but no matter what a Shelbourne fan says on here now, it will get an automatic number of posts about how delighted everyone is the club I support is going down. Personally I can do without being stereotyped as your Footie impression of a Shels fan (ie head in the sand, delights in boosting about overspending, etc etc), which is not the real reflection of a true shels fan at all, but then again very few shels fans I would rate as having a valid opinion post here.

Shels are quite clearly in a very bad state, but I would be surprised if there are not a number of other clubs following behind us on that. I do not agree with overspending to achieve your target if overspending means freefalling if you fail to achieve them. I firmly believe Eircom League clubs should be run as proper businesses and some have awoken to that fact, others, still haven't. I am not an apologist for the club I support. I am not blind to the events and the spending that has occurred. I would like to ask a few people on here what EXACTLY you can do about it as a normal waged individual, especially when one man owns 99% of the business, and your opinion is about just that ,an opinion.

I for one, like alot of other club fans and even the clubs I dislike for whatever reasons, I would never want to see another club go out of business, cos there are always decent fans who maybe have family traditions in clubs, or great memories and I for one would think that is reason enough to never want to see a club die. Ollie Byrne is not Shelbourne FC. He owns it and runs it now, but Shelbourne FC is the fans, the history, etc etc. If I had the money I'd try rescue it, but unfortunately I don't and no one I know does.

So what exactly are you trying to say???

[Gareth]

I was just pointing out that Shels fans are not blind to the happenings in Tolka Park as would appear to be the general opinion on Foot.ie and that it is never nice to see a club as old as Shels to go down.

[Poor Student]

I've seen it happen in Slovenia where 6th or 7th place got into the UEFA or Inter Toto as a few clubs failed the UEFA licencing.

[A face]

I don't really post that much here anymore, and I havent really in quite a while. I do reply to the odd thread. The thing is I post on forums of clubs when I have some questions or wanna chat about something relating to their club, but no matter what a Shelbourne fan says on here now, it will get an automatic number of posts about how delighted everyone is the club I support is going down.

Can you do me a favour and report those posts?

[OneRedArmy]

The Mail and IoS both running stories today that Shels may well not get their UEFA Licence and therefore not be allowed into Europe. Derry would be in the CL and Pat's in the UEFA.

I'd be kind of sceptical as this would mean licencing would be being applied properly, which is a rather massive break from tradition.

It's at times like this that I look back to Shels fans slating UCD earlier in the season for living within our means and equating that with a lack of ambition and break my sh!te laughing.Some of us predicted this months ago.

They only reason I would have confidence that this exercise will be thorough and correctly assessed is that UEFA look very closely over the national association's shoulder in the awarding of these licenses. Basically there isn't as much fudge room.

And Gareth, whilst I feel you make a valid point, even as a Shels supporter you must be able to understand the immense schadenfreude at Ollie's current predicament that is currently being displayed by a lot of posters (and domestic football fans in general), myself included.

I'd love to be adult about the whole thing but I have long thought Irish football will be better without Ollie involved in it and given his behaviour over the past decade in respect of his dealings with many other clubs, I think you'll find that many people feel he's getting what he deserves.

If Shels deserve saving they will be saved, in some fashion or other.

[CharlesThompson]

I was just pointing out that Shels fans are not blind to the happenings in Tolka Park as would appear to be the general opinion on Foot.ie and that it is never nice to see a club as old as Shels to go down.

Gareth it's easy to say now that Shels fans are not blind to the happenings at Tolka Park when they are in the newspapers and on the telly every day. The point I and a lot of other posters here have is that for years we have asked Shels posters who delighted in rubbing our noses in the fact that three of our players jumped ship to Shels two years ago or that you pipped Cork to the title last year or Derry to the title this year. Remember "Small club, small minds"?

While it was pretty obvious that the balance between your wage bill against your prize money, gate reciepts, commercial income etc. never looked likely to meet, in defence of our noses being rubbed in it by Shels fans (remember J€A£OU$?) we warned the vast majority of your support that it will all come back and bite you in the bum. The response to this was that Ollie knows what he's doing; Ollie has worked wonders for this club; Ollies life is Shelbourne: Ollie this; Ollie that - Heads In The Sand.

Now that it has come to bite you in the bum you come and say that Shels fans are perfectly knowledgable to the situation at Tolka. Pity Gareth that they never listened to those of us who knew what was going on two years ago and decided to ignore it for the sake of a few good parties.

[Gareth]

Charles, firstly the time we signed the Bohs trio from ye, most of the lads I sat with who would not be computer savvy all agreed that the action was foolhardy and we could have done without them and the stupid press that followed. Hawkins, Ryan and Crowe have all done well for us, after slow starts, but at the time, and the manner of teh signings was something most non-internet warriors that I know thought silly.

Secondly, foot.ie posters and soccer fans in general don't react well to other club fans preaching to them. I have seen perfectly sensible people who know plenty of the workings in shels post insanely on here just to not have to listen to a Bohs fan or a UCD fan tell them about their own club.

Thirdly I have never once been under an illusions about the levels of spending and the trouble it will bring, but when one man owns most of the club and is not noted for listening to many people re advice, it was not exactly something any of us could really do about it. Numerous people have mentioned this at meetings etc etc but it fell on deaf ears. I would say that you should not take teh general opinion people have based on forum postings which are generally in reply to opposition fans.

Charles, I spend a lot of time doing Shels things and I would love nothing more than to be able to help save Shels, but there is very little I or many shels fans can do about it, as it stands or stood 2 years ago. One man has teh power to change it, and that is and has been the way for years. Can you suggest exactly what one lad or a group of lads on average wage can do to save a club owned by someone not willing to sell up?

[A face]

Can you suggest exactly what one lad or a group of lads on average wage can do to save a club owned by someone not willing to sell up?

A trust ??

To be fair you are right though. There aint alot you can do in that situation.

[Dodge]

Can you do me a favour and report those posts?

No real need to. None of those posts went OTT (I'm particularly interested in this field ;) ). I despise Shelbourne. Thats not trolling, its just football rivalry. I hope they die and I'm not apologising for it.

[forza]

I despise Shelbourne. Thats not trolling, its just football rivalry. I hope they die and I'm not apologising for it.

So do I. Top post.

[dcfcsteve]

I spend a lot of time doing Shels things and I would
love nothing more than to be able to help save Shels, but there is very little I or many shels fans can do about it, as it stands or stood 2 years ago. One man has teh power to change it, and that is and has been the way for years. Can you suggest exactly what one lad or a group of lads on average wage can do to save a club owned by someone not willing to sell up?

Well you eluded to the answer earlier when you said that Ollie Byrne isn't Shels - it's the fans, history etc etc.

Ollie's investment in Shels is worth zero without the fans. You are the ones with ther power here.

So what can you do ? A number of things :

- A delegation from the supporters clubs could meet with Ollie and offer him honourable ways out of his involvement with the club- e.g. selling to a Trust (see 'Supporters Direct' or Sligo fans for advise), expanding the Board to reduce his influence etc
- You could walk away and set-up your own club, AFC Shelbourne, just like AFC Wimbledon, AFC Telford, Clydebank FC, FC Salzburg and FC United of Manchester. You're not exactly short on role models here, and there's a spare slot in the EL available at the moment (2 if your existing club goes belly-up).

The fact that you sit there scratching your head thinking there's nothing you can do says it all really. Whilst Rovers fans often get pilloried, at least they had the gumption to get off their arses and do something to take-back their own club.

[The Sheliban]

I don't post here that much because it was starting to depress me, though occasionally I bite at what I perceive as unfair remarks.
I am one of those people who you consider to have had their head in the sand. Way back in the nineties, fans were predicting our imminent demise because of our overspending. Certainly every year this century, back on the old JW board as well, fans of other clubs have been making dire predictions of our imminent collapse. However, every year we survived, got a great deal of success and obviously the merchants of doom were wrong.
This year gone appeared to have been going the same way. I ignored all the postings as frankly it was becoming rather tedious. Problems with the tax man? Ollie sorted it. I have no idea how the club is run - I always assumed we had a great bunch of directors who were pretty sharp on the fundraising side of things.
It now appears the "I told you so" fans have finally been proved right. And while I can understand how successful clubs always seem to attract hatred, it is somewhat sad to see the glee at our possible extinction. Way back to the KRAM days, I have always thought that though I don't like Rovers as a club, at least their fans are League of Ireland supporters and deserve our support. Better a Rovers fan than a United fan.
Our club has played a huge part in the revival of Irish football, whether you like it or not. The current triumphalism on this board, though understandable, is quite depressing.

[Gareth]

Well you eluded to the answer earlier when you said that Ollie Byrne isn't Shels - it's the fans, history etc etc.

Ollie's investment in Shels is worth zero without the fans. You are the ones with ther power here.

So what can you do ? A number of things :

- A delegation from the supporters clubs could meet with Ollie and offer him honourable ways out of his involvement with the club- e.g. selling to a Trust (see 'Supporters Direct' or Sligo fans for advise), expanding the Board to reduce his influence etc
- You could walk away and set-up your own club, AFC Shelbourne, just like AFC Wimbledon, AFC Telford, Clydebank FC, FC Salzburg and FC United of Manchester. You're not exactly short on role models here, and there's a spare slot in the EL available at the moment (2 if your existing club goes belly-up).

The fact that you sit there scratching your head thinking there's nothing you can do says it all really. Whilst Rovers fans often get pilloried, at least they had the gumption to get off their arses and do something to take-back their own club.

Sorry DCFCSteve, but I think your missing the biggest point of all, Ollie Byrne doesn't want to sell and all the fans I know do not have the money to take over the club. The SSDG was set up and I thought if that was a huge success then maybe the money could be found to lure Ollie out but in reality it wasn't. So then your back to the situation of getting fans to say they will boycott games, well erm...our crowds are tiny, and its not had any effect on Ollie's wish to sell. The major point is Ollie owns 99%. There is NOTHING that can be done by a small bunch of fans who don't have the funds to take it over. I don't want to set up a new football club because I once again dont have the people/money/influence to do so. You all talk about these things as though I just need to press option A, B, C or D on my keypad and all will happen. Rovers have a huge support, and a kind of support that when you ask the average Dub who doesn't know much about irish soccer they will say they support Rovers. We don't have that. So when you say I don't have the gumption, I have to say I have talked to people about the options, I have tried in vain to think of solutions and it always boils down to two things.

1) If the majority owner in a company doesn't want to sell, he can run it to the ground and there is nothing much you can do if that is his wish.
2) I don't have the cash or the group of people who would have the cash and time to take over the football club.

As for Dodge's comments, he doesn't deserve a reply.

[Macy]

Certainly every year this century, back on the old JW board as well, fans of other clubs have been making dire predictions of our imminent collapse. However, every year we survived, got a great deal of success and obviously the merchants of doom were wrong.
But the merchants of doom were right - it's clearer now more than ever that your spending through these years couldn't be supported by your income.

[stickyjoe]

The big difference between Shels and Rovers situation is that Shels/Olly are sitting on an asset worth anything between €20m-€25m(?) which makes it absolutely impossible for the Shels fans to buy/take over the club in any shape or form.

[alkev]

No real need to. None of those posts went OTT (I'm particularly interested in this field ;) ). I despise Shelbourne. Thats not trolling, its just football rivalry. I hope they die and I'm not apologising for it.

When all your rivals die, what then? Think about it!!

[Gareth]

Alkev, seriously don't bother trying to convince Dodge otherwise, pointless venture.

StickyJoe, exactly, where rovers fans bought a club worth nothing, Tolka Park does still exist and despite what reports and rumour suggest, any fans takeover would require them to include the ground in the bid. Which in my eyes, unless I win the Euromillions, is a non starter.

I respect the Rovers lads for what they did, but I just don't think at this moment Shels fans are there in large enough numbers. They are also very apathetic fans at times, and there is once again the issue that the owner does not want to sell.

[lofty9]

Gareth, the unfortunate reality is that most people can't get past Ollie Byrne in their feelings for Shelbourne. The fact he owns 99% of the club is frightening. I, for one do not enjoy clubs in this land suffer a demise. We were in a financial mess not so long ago and I certainly wouldn't appreciate the comments coming from fellow EL supporters. We got back on our feet, however the difference being the people of Derry got behind the club as a city. Shels as Drumcondra do not have that luxury.

Don't want to sound patrionising but good luck as you are a genuine EL supporter.

[Terry]

Gareth, the unfortunate reality is that most people can't get past Ollie Byrne in their feelings for Shelbourne. The fact he owns 99% of the club is frightening. I, for one do not enjoy clubs in this land suffer a demise. We were in a financial mess not so long ago and I certainly wouldn't appreciate the comments coming from fellow EL supporters. We got back on our feet, however the difference being the people of Derry got behind the club as a city. Shels as Drumcondra do not have that luxury.

Don't want to sound patrionising but good luck as you are a genuine EL supporter.

Exactly, my club were also in the same situation not to long ago. Hopefully the genuine fans like yourself can come out smilng in the end. Whatever about Ollie, I honestly dont think anybody wants to see more clubs dissappearing.

[Macy]

The big difference between Shels and Rovers situation is that Shels/Olly are sitting on an asset worth anything between €20m-€25m(?) which makes it absolutely impossible for the Shels fans to buy/take over the club in any shape or form.
Weren't the Rovers board/ Mulden/ Sloanpark/ whoever also sitting on an asset worth a lot of money? I wonder with the right pressure could the council do a similar move to which saw the propert sharks around Rovers skulk off. If Dublin City Council came out and said they won't be giving planning permission for anything other than sporting, then the land value will drastically reduce in value. Indeed, isn't it already over stated as as I understand the council have said they'll be no planning permission until Shels are sorted somewhere else?

[OneRedArmy]

The big difference between Shels and Rovers situation is that Shels/Olly are sitting on an asset worth anything between €20m-€25m(?) which makes it absolutely impossible for the Shels fans to buy/take over the club in any shape or form.Deduct the 6.5m drawn-down, the fact that its a lease not a freehold and the need for the land to be re-zoned to realise anywhere nears its value (not to mention the direction the Dublin property market is going) and that number is waaaay off.

If Shels can limp on for another year or two the FAI/Bertie will come to the rescue with a spanking new stadium at Abbotstown for them to share with whatever other Dublin club that has hocked itself into semi-oblivion (Pats looking like favourites here).

Meanwhile Derry will no doubt still be trying to re-develop the Brandywell...

[fbtn]

I agree too. While I have no great love for Olly by any stretch of the imagination, I could never bring myself to be happy to see any club in the country go under.

I hope they manage to get rid of him and get some sort of solid structure sorted but it doesn't look good for them at the minute.

[Schumi]

Deduct the 6.5m drawn-down, the fact that its a lease not a freehold and the need for the land to be re-zoned to realise anywhere nears its value (not to mention the direction the Dublin property market is going) and that number is waaaay off.

Even if it's only €5m, it's still a monstrous amount of money for a fans' group to come up with.

[OneRedArmy]

Even if it's only €5m, it's still a monstrous amount of money for a fans' group to come up with.I agree, but I was referring more to the mistaken belief that Ollie is sitting on a pot of gold.

I'd bet if the business was wound up today, there wouldn't be a whole lot to divvy out once every creditor is settled and costs are taken into account.

If Ollie won't give up the reins then the only option to fans is setting up a new club. Bankruptcy may, perversely, be the best thing that could happen to Shels from the perspective of the fans, as it would allow "regime change" and a fresh start.

[thejollyrodger]

I'm really worried about Shels. We really need a financial backer.

[Jerry The Saint]

I'm really worried about Shels. We really need a financial backer.

What about that dodgy lawyer - is he still interested? He should have plenty of spare time to run Shels now that he's got one less client to deal with...?

[BohsPartisan]

What about that dodgy lawyer - is he still interested? He should have plenty of spare time to run Shels now that he's got one less client to deal with...?

Apparantly Ollie asked him to invest Di Stefano left him hanging...
:D

[galwayhoop]

Even if it's only €5m, it's still a monstrous amount of money for a fans' group to come up with.

especially if you've only got 6 fans :D

[stickyjoe]

[QUOTE=OneRedArmy;600080]Deduct the 6.5m drawn-down, the fact that its a lease not a freehold and the need for the land to be re-zoned to realise anywhere nears its value (not to mention the direction the Dublin property market is going) and that number is waaaay off.
QUOTE]

Lofty I have no personal idea of the price of the lease etc. but that figure is the general figure quoted down here in the media for the value of the lease. I think the Star last week had the figure at approx € 28m and they reckoned € 6.5m had been drawn down which left about € 20m still there. So I think your idea that the lease is worth far, far less then that could be off the mark

[dcfcsteve]

Even if it's only €5m, it's still a monstrous amount of money for a fans' group to come up with.

AFC Wimbledon fans raised £3.5m (sterling) to buy their current ground, with an active support base of only 1,500-2,500.......

Ad they're extremely far off getting to the stages where English football starts to bring in big cash through TV rights, plumb FA Cup draws etc.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm really worried about Shels. We really need a financial backer.

Holy fcuk JR - is the current situation teaching you nothing ? :eek:

So the solution is to get someone in to throw money at the club, until the inevitable point at which they eventually withdraw - leaving Shels right back at square one....?

Shels do not have any sort of divine right to exist at the top of the Irish footballing food-chain. In fact - it's the complet opposite. You don't even deserve to be there on false pretences, as you simply can't afford it. The answer to Shels problems are therefore not to continue with that farce for a few more years. No - what Shels need is to :

a) Live within your means - even if that means winning nothing for some time. Welcome to the real world for 90+% of football clubs in Europe.
b) Develop a proper strategy for increasing your income and support base, to broaden your financial means and therefore increase your chances of competing at the higher levels over time.
c) Build-up a larger and stronger support base, and proper links into your local community.

Financial backer my arse. If you sit around praying for a queue of people to continuously throw-money at your cash-greedy club, then yees deserve to go to the wall for that sort of financially retarded attitude.... :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

As for Dodge's comments, he doesn't deserve a reply.

I didn't post it looking for a response. But you already did on another thread. Something about not liking me


When all your rivals die, what then? Think about it!!

World domination, obviously. I think you missed the point here. I don't want all cubs to die, just Shels. can't see it happening myself

[pete]

On what basis would Shels be denied a Uefa Licence? If its for financial reasons then surely they would also be denied a League licence? AFAIK Uefa licence just adds on issues such as infrastructure i.e. suitable ground to play Uefa competition...?

:confused:

[OneRedArmy]

On what basis would Shels be denied a Uefa Licence? If its for financial reasons then surely they would also be denied a League licence? AFAIK Uefa licence just adds on issues such as infrastructure i.e. suitable ground to play Uefa competition...?

:confused:Shels circumstances have obviously taken a turn for the worse since the assessment was undertaken for the 2007 League license.

I would imagine its unlikely they would get it if required to present updated financials and legal info, as they may have to for the UEFA license.

Eg not sure when their financial year end is but as an example, if it was 31 December and UEFA requested audited accounts for y/e 2006, I'm sure they would look a pretty picture! This info would obviously not have been available for the 2007 league licensing body.

Also, if cash is that short, you could well be into a situation where creditors will withdraw facilities, so no programme, security, floodlighting etc.

[Poor Student]

Shels could be in for a minor windfall that might help them edge past this particular crisis. Apparently they've managed to sell Dillon to Dundee United for £15k and they're seeking a cut of Stokes £2.7m transfer to Sunderland.

[wws]

Shels could be in for a minor windfall that might help them edge past this particular crisis. Apparently they've managed to sell Dillon to Dundee United for £15k and they're seeking a cut of Stokes £2.7m transfer to Sunderland.

fifteen grand!!!?!??!?!

fecks sake thats peanuts!

[Poor Student]

It averts losing him for nothing and averts a successful test case which could lead others leaving. Thw £15k could also be used to temporarily pay the wages of the remaining few players.

[OneRedArmy]

Its a shame that Dundee couldn't wait and fight the legal battle (they obviously decided to pay a nominal sum and have Dillon available immediately).

PS, I'd say it only delays the test case happening. Dundee paying certainly shouldn't be read as Shels still owning their players contracts.

[Tenderloins]

Its a shame that Dundee couldn't wait and fight the legal battle (they obviously decided to pay a nominal sum and have Dillon available immediately).

PS, I'd say it only delays the test case happening. Dundee paying certainly shouldn't be read as Shels still owning their players contracts.

God knows Legal bills could top 15k fairly quick if the case dragged on. Also What odds on the case being heard during the Transfer Window ?

[drummerboy]

If Shels are entitled to a cut in Stokes transfer fee, then so are Cherry Orchard whom he played for before his father took the whole team to Shels.

[OneRedArmy]

God knows Legal bills could top 15k fairly quick if the case dragged on. Also What odds on the case being heard during the Transfer Window ?Exactly. Dundee wanted him available so they paid up.

Ollie's brass neck pays again.

[dcfcsteve]

Ollie's brass neck pays again.

But only in the short-term.

The game is now up for Oliver Byrne. Despite appearing to really want to stay (e.g. turning down the Bohs job) he lost the most successful manager in the league this millenium, and can't find anyone to take his place. I've no doubt any new Manager he does get will also struggle to secure players of any vague quality either. Why the hell would any player sign for Shels if they have any other half-decent alternative options ?

'Come in Ollie Byrne, your time is (long) up.....!'

[Tenderloins]

So at a time (post Kevin Doyle/Shane Long transfer) when EL clubs are looking for realistic transfer fees, Shels may well be having a fire sale?