Golden age of league football in the Republic?

[liam88]

Ok so I was thinking the other day....i've been posting on here about 3 and a half year -I've been involved in some great dicussions about the Ireland team, a certain Scottish team, politics from Michael Collins to Palestine, and just plain random stuff that was nohting to do with anything! But overall out of my 2000 odd posts very few have been about Eircom League football. True a few have and I join in when I can (although I've been away from foot.ie for a while) but overall -and i openly confess this - i jsut don't know that much about EL football.

I go to watch Ramblers whenever I'm in Cobh- some of my family are really involved in the club, I've got the jersey, lots of past programmes and I check the scores. When I'm in Dublin visiting my brother I try and get to whichever sporting events I can and made the Bohs vs Rovers derby last year. But not living in Ireland and never having lived in Ireland I find it pretty hard to keep up with the overall goings on -clubs coming up or going bust, player transfers etc.

Anyway....onto my point. Having this kind of detachment from the EL I find it pretty hard to understand the kinds of situation that the league is in as a whole. My uncle talks about a time when bus loads of Ramblers fans would travel to sell out games up and down the country while fans from other clubs talk about packed grounds and brilliant players. They all talk about it as if its not like that anymore -as if there was some Golden age of Irish football that has passed. I can't work out if its just nostalgia (things always seem better looking back) or if the whole league is really not as vibrant/popular/exciting as it once was. Like I said it's hard to gage because I don't regularly attent EL games -out of the three matches I went to last year one Rams game was pretty full and noisy-a good match, the Bohs/Rovers game was amazing, and the other Rams game was pretty quiet. This obviously doesn't give me a good enough picture because obviously each match depends on opponent/new players/what else is going on that day/recent results etc.

So -is Legaue football in the Republic of Ireland as good as it once was:

-Was there ever a Golden age?
-When was it?
-What changed?
-Could it come back and how?

Sorry if that rambled a bit but I hope I explained myself ;) :D

[Réiteoir]

Liam - best thing to do is pick up a copy of "Who Stole Our Game" by Daire Whelan - you can get it ordered in the UK via Waterstones

This is a good account of the "glory days" and it's decline

[OneRedArmy]

League of Ireland football has the shortest boom/bust cycles known to man and is one step removed from being one of the worlds longest running pyramid schemes.

We've just finished another bout of groundless dreaming and are back to porridge for about the 3rd time in a decade.

But the next time it really will be for real ( quote courtesy J. Delaney, Merrion Square).

[Ronnie]

Liam, very hard to know where to pick. In say Cobhs case, its possible the large numbers travelling to away games actually refers to one season in the FAI Cup when Cobh made the semis before Sligo beat them at the 4th attempt (I think it took 4 games) - Cobh were actually non league at the time. As our support bases are very small, away support when not going well can be quite low, with Shamrock Rovers probably the most consistent for numbers over the longer term of away supporters.

In more recent times we have had a cycle of clubs about to dominate who for one reason or another it didn't happen - Rovers and Milltown, Derry City with 10,000 attenbding at the Brandywell, Bohs after Aberdeen, and Shels as I type, Cork City, following in a tradition of Cork Clubs expected to dominate, with the latest contenders being moneybags Drogehda and nouveau riche Bohs, yet every time so far it has failed, possibly as Irish soccer support can fall so dramically if things are not going well - that can mean going from champions to 3rd place, and gates falling by almost 50%. Of course the other massive issue is that Irish soccer fans first loyalty is to clubs in England!

[drinkfeckarse]

Given the European exploits over the last few years I would say the last 3 years were the "Golden Age". Now it's heading back into the doldrums but will no doubt come back strong again soon.

It seems to be in cycles as suggested above. In league terms another Golden Age would be the Rovers era of the 80's IMO.

[red bellied]

Cobh took massive crowds to the Showgrounds for the two cup semi final replays in 1983 both games were afternoon kick offs during the week. Two to three thousand each time possibly more for the deciding match which is the record atttendance in the Showgrounds. At the time Cork had no side in the LOI plus Cobh been non league added to all the hype.

[Poor Student]

Given the European exploits over the last few years I would say the last 3 years were the "Golden Age". Now it's heading back into the doldrums but will no doubt come back strong again soon.


I don't see any particular reason that the league could be considered heading to the doldrums. Drogheda and Derry will be as strong if not stronger than last year and could carry on the LOI's recent European successes next year with the improved seeding taken into account. If Shels do get the European licence it'll be a bit of a setback for the league if they take their predicted beating but it'll hardly be the doldrums. After all, our most successful club Shamrock Rovers just escaped extinction and got relegated in this so called Golden Age of yours, so why should Shels demise be considered such a down turn?

[Billy Lord]

The 1950s is regarded as the best decade for the game as a spectator sport. Things were basically fine from the early 20th Century up until the early 1970s when it all just fell apart, through a combination of clubs failing to move with the times, owners jumping ship when the money dried-up, and the advent of 'piped' (ie: cable) TV that meant everyone could watch The Big Match highlights show on ITV, which was obviously more fun than getting soaked at your local LoI ground.
There is a myth about attendances, though. While big games used to attract 20,000+ they were the exception rather than the rule. The good old days were never that good.

[Poor Student]

Things were basically fine from the early 20th Century up until the early 1970s when it all just fell apart

Is that all from your personal memory, Billy?;)

[1 9 2 8]

Cobh took massive crowds to the Showgrounds for the two cup semi final replays in 1983 both games were afternoon kick offs during the week. Two to three thousand each time possibly more for the deciding match which is the record atttendance in the Showgrounds. At the time Cork had no side in the LOI plus Cobh been non league added to all the hype.

Near 14,000 in the Showgrounds and 20,000 in Cobh for dose games

[Billy Lord]

Is that all from your personal memory, Billy?;)

No, but I can have you killed just by hitting a certain key on my computer.:cool:

[Dodge]

Two golden ages; 1951-1956, 1995-2000. Best year ever was probably 1990 though

[Macy]

Given the European exploits over the last few years I would say the last 3 years were the "Golden Age".
I don't agree that european football is the measure of success or any golden age. Week to week attendances are the things that matter, and they've been heading the wrong way (or to stop another debate on that matter at the very least they've stagnated).

The last few years have been the most depressing - clubs living way beyond their means, awful administration by the FAI (licencing and all the anti criticism measures brought in by delaney), threatened court cases to decide leagues, clubs going out of business. If that was the golden age, God help us in the bad times....

[NY Hoop]

Near 14,000 in the Showgrounds and 20,000 in Cobh for dose games

20,000 in Cobh my arse.


KOH

[soccerc]

The 1950s is regarded as the best decade for the game as a spectator sport. Things were basically fine from the early 20th Century up until the early 1970s when it all just fell apart, through a combination of clubs failing to move with the times, owners jumping ship when the money dried-up, and the advent of 'piped' (ie: cable) TV that meant everyone could watch The Big Match highlights show on ITV, which was obviously more fun than getting soaked at your local LoI ground.
There is a myth about attendances, though. While big games used to attract 20,000+ they were the exception rather than the rule. The good old days were never that good.

I was a regular at Milltown in season 75/76 (only when Pats were not playing in Dublin) and crowds were as poor as they were at Richmond.

[Lim till i die]

20,000 in Cobh my arse.


Think that game was played in Flower Lodge in Cork

20,000 would probably cause Cobh to sink into the sea

[joeSoap]

20,000 would probably cause Cobh to sink into the seaLets get 21,000 down to Cobh asap then...just to be sure...;)

[Lim till i die]

Lets get 21,000 down to Cobh asap then...just to be sure...;)

I can't swim :o :)

[ciaraa]

20,000 in Cobh my arse.


KOH

20,000 in the cobh of your arse??

[NY Hoop]

23,000 odd For Rovers v Cobh the game was played in Flower Lodge.

I think NY and turned into a little green eyed monster !!!! :D

Having been in Colman's a fair few times it's obvious that it couldnt hold 20,000. Wasnt aware that it was played in Flower Lodge as I dont pay too much attention to small clubs.

KOH

[Dodge]

Having been in Colman's a fair few times it's obvious that it couldnt hold 20,000. Wasnt aware that it was played in Flower Lodge as I dont pay too much attention to small clubs.


Yeah 20,000 for a home game in Cork is small. How many did Rovers get for theirs again?

[dcfcsteve]

Given the European exploits over the last few years I would say the last 3 years were the "Golden Age". Now it's heading back into the doldrums but will no doubt come back strong again soon.

It seems to be in cycles as suggested above. In league terms another Golden Age would be the Rovers era of the 80's IMO.


The golden rule of Golden Ages is that you can't declare one mid-process ! :)

You need quite a few years gap after it ends - as otherwise, how do you know it's actually ended yet...??

If the last 3 years has been a golden age for domestic football in Ireland, then to be fair we may as well all pack-up and go home ! A couple of decent European results does not constitute a golden age - particularly given the low level of crowds, administrative chaos, financial incompetence and atrocious media profile we've suffered alongside.

At best, the last few years may prove to be the very early stages of a golden age. But we won't know for many years if that has been the case or not.

[NY Hoop]

Yeah 20,000 for a home game in Cork is small. How many did Rovers get for theirs again?

That 20,000 was a one off as you well know.

KOH

[pete]

Relatively speaking last 3-5 years have been best seasons for last 20-25 years. Before Derry joined the league attendances were worse than current ones. That says a lot about irish football.

[red bellied]

That 20,000 was a one off as you well know.

KOH

No it wasnt because there was a bigger crowd for the next game in Flower Lodge and that was during the week, close on 30,000.

[NY Hoop]

No it wasnt because there was a bigger crowd for the next game in Flower Lodge and that was during the week, close on 30,000.

Yeah but what about the 20,000 in Cobh?!:p

KOH

[gspain]

I was at the first game in Flower Lodge and there were about 20,000 there. My Dad was at the 2nd replay in the Lodge and the crowd was even bigger again. In both cases it included significant travelling support. Cobh had the first game won until Mick Graham conjured up an equaliser from nowhere at the death. The crowd for the international v spain 2 years later at the Lodge was much smaller.

[drinkfeckarse]

I don't see any particular reason that the league could be considered heading to the doldrums. Drogheda and Derry will be as strong if not stronger than last year and could carry on the LOI's recent European successes next year with the improved seeding taken into account. If Shels do get the European licence it'll be a bit of a setback for the league if they take their predicted beating but it'll hardly be the doldrums. After all, our most successful club Shamrock Rovers just escaped extinction and got relegated in this so called Golden Age of yours, so why should Shels demise be considered such a down turn?

Winding up orders, threats of administration, teams potentially going out of business, crowds on the wane again? That sounds like a case of the doldrums to me.

The fact is, in 20 years time Shels fans, Derry fans, Cork fans will be telling their kids of the fantastic days of winning leagues (Derry aside recently), winning cups and tremendous European runs and how great it all was for a time.

Sounds like a Golden Age to me.

[seand]

"The fact is, in 20 years time Shels fans, Derry fans, Cork fans will be telling their kids of the fantastic days of winning leagues (Derry aside recently), winning cups and tremendous European runs and how great it all was for a time."


In the case of Shels fans that'll be in the same way that Drums and Cork Hibs fans are telling their kids about how great it was.

[Monkfish]

Ya and we'll have AFC Limerick City United and Athlone Town battling it out for the league! Roll on 20 years

[pete]

The League has not had good crowds for over 30 years. The league has always had clubs folding. The league has always had financial problems. We hardly a golden age but relative to the past we doing ok now.

[oriel]

Listening to the matt cooper show on today fm a few weeks ago the author of that book 'who stole our game' summed up the state of irish football perfectly in my opinion.

the irish public will only turn out in consistent large numbers for occasional games for ANY sport. Take gaa for eg, one or two big games every sunday, counties on the way to the all ireland final will play no more than 6 games. Rugby ? 6 nations, max of 3 home games, maybe 3 other big profile games at the end of season. still only 6 games in total. Magners/Heinken cup - around 10 home games per year ?? I could be wrong here, but not far off. Even the Irish International football side, max 5 home games per year, the list goes on and on. little and often thats the key. (this is why the stupid idea of wimbeldon in dublin 10 years would have never worked)

Eircom lge = min 20 home games per year, this is our problem, we have no tradition of supporting a team for anymore than 4 or 5 big games, and god forbid if your team suffers a bad start to the season, (or suffers an end of season nosedive in form) you could see a 30 - 50% drop in crowds.

I take my hat off to fans of clubs in the old div 3 + 4 in england, they go week in/week out every week, pretty much same size crowds too, all between 5 + 10,000.

Now that IS whats called supporting your team

[passerrby]

jumpers for goalposts ,mick leach, little boys holding hands with the parish priest, ah memories.

[BohDiddley]

Listening to the matt cooper show on today fm a few weeks ago the author of that book 'who stole our game' summed up the state of irish football perfectly in my opinion.

the irish public will only turn out in consistent large numbers for occasional games for ANY sport. Take gaa for eg, one or two big games every sunday, counties on the way to the all ireland final will play no more than 6 games. Rugby ? 6 nations, max of 3 home games, maybe 3 other big profile games at the end of season. still only 6 games in total. Magners/Heinken cup - around 10 home games per year ?? I could be wrong here, but not far off. Even the Irish International football side, max 5 home games per year, the list goes on and on. little and often thats the key. (this is why the stupid idea of wimbeldon in dublin 10 years would have never worked)

Eircom lge = min 20 home games per year, this is our problem, we have no tradition of supporting a team for anymore than 4 or 5 big games, and god forbid if your team suffers a bad start to the season, (or suffers an end of season nosedive in form) you could see a 30 - 50% drop in crowds.

I take my hat off to fans of clubs in the old div 3 + 4 in england, they go week in/week out every week, pretty much same size crowds too, all between 5 + 10,000.

Now that IS whats called supporting your team

Good post.

Part of the problem with these state of the game discussions is that they tend to turn into nostalgia trips, then into an 'all is lost/might as well follow ManU' lament.

If we could forget about some illusory glorious past (apart from BFC victories of course); forget about trying to recapture 40,000+ attendances; stop interviewing bitter old moans who have an agenda, and start with modest targets for the future, such as building the habit of regular support, then we might go somewhere.

I think the model of the loyal lower division English fan who eschews the Premiership circus, or can follow both, is one worth looking at.

[WeAreRovers]

Listening to the matt cooper show on today fm a few weeks ago the author of that book 'who stole our game' summed up the state of irish football perfectly in my opinion.

the irish public will only turn out in consistent large numbers for occasional games for ANY sport. Take gaa for eg, one or two big games every sunday, counties on the way to the all ireland final will play no more than 6 games. Rugby ? 6 nations, max of 3 home games, maybe 3 other big profile games at the end of season. still only 6 games in total. Magners/Heinken cup - around 10 home games per year ?? I could be wrong here, but not far off. Even the Irish International football side, max 5 home games per year, the list goes on and on. little and often thats the key. (this is why the stupid idea of wimbeldon in dublin 10 years would have never worked)

Eircom lge = min 20 home games per year, this is our problem, we have no tradition of supporting a team for anymore than 4 or 5 big games, and god forbid if your team suffers a bad start to the season, (or suffers an end of season nosedive in form) you could see a 30 - 50% drop in crowds.

I take my hat off to fans of clubs in the old div 3 + 4 in england, they go week in/week out every week, pretty much same size crowds too, all between 5 + 10,000.

Now that IS whats called supporting your team

Spot on Oriel.

As an example, I'm off to see Leinster tomorrow in a ground that is eircom League standard at best but some of the world's top players will be on show. I'll attend maybe 4 Leinster games this season - in our off-season - and that's pretty typical of an Irish sportsfan.

Leinster have done an amazing marketing job and have gone from attendances in the 100s (even in the professional era) to sell-outs in pretty quick time. We need to learn lessons from them as well as promoting the "hardcore" element of following a football team - something that no other sport in this country can offer.

KOH

[BohsFans]

Leinster have done an amazing marketing job and have gone from attendances in the 100s (even in the professional era) to sell-outs in pretty quick time. We need to learn lessons from them as well as promoting the "hardcore" element of following a football team - something that no other sport in this country can offer.


What have they done that's really that different?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Liam 88

Since about 1960 the EL/League of Ireland has had three eras where clubs did well in European Club competitions. Shamrock Rovers were narrowly beaten by Bayern Munich in the mid 1960's, and Shelbourne had some respectable results in the early part of the decade.

Dundalk flew the flag briefly in the early 1980's with good results against Celtic and Spurs. UCD lost 1-0 on aggregate to eventual winners Everton in the European Cup winners Cup in 1984/85. And the same season Bohs lost by a single goal on aggregate to Glasgow Rangers and Rovers only lost on away goals to Linfield.

The next golden age has been the Noughties since 2000 Irish clubs ( bar Longford against the Welsh and Shels against the Maltese) have all got respectable results in Europe.

Soccerc you saw Rovers at Milltown the season they had to apply for re-election.

As regards crowds there has not been a golden age in my lifetime and I was born in the early 1960's. My own club saw it's crowds go down in 1983 when we were more successful than the season before because there were less goals at our games. We reduced our goals against by 40 goals in the season.
We won the Cup that year too. Although being drawn away from home in every round didn't help the attendances.

[pineapple stu]

Dundalk flew the flag briefly in the early 1980's with good results against Celtic and Spurs. UCD lost 1-0 on aggregate to eventual winners Everton in the European Cup winners Cup in 1984/85. And the same season Bohs lost by a single goal on aggregate to Glasgow Rangers and Rovers only lost on away goals to Linfield.
While your other points here may be valid, the league's only European elimination to a NI team isn't anything to particularly crow about.

[Aaron]

IMO the past 6 years have been the best. Take away the clubs folding and threats of administration it hasnt been that bad. We've had Shels, Ours, Corks and Drogs european runs, Shels notably in the CL. The past two season the league has gone to the last day, something that rarely happens in football. We've had marvellous cup finals, big attendances at Cup Finals and Play-Offs. Things arnt as bad as they seem, and if the FAI decide they want to run the league in the correct manner then i dont see any reason why the league as a whole cant improve

[DmanDmythDledge]

IMO the past 6 years have been the best. Take away the clubs folding and threats of administration it hasnt been that bad.
You can't just pretend that certain things didn't happen. That's like me saying if you don't count Shels, Derry etc UCD would have won the league this season.

We've had Shels, Ours, Corks and Drogs european runs, Shels notably in the CL.
They aren't that good compared to other European results before, bar maybe Shels draw with Deporivo. See CTID's post for some examples.

[dcfcsteve]

As regards crowds there has not been a golden age in my lifetime and I was born in the early 1960's. My own club saw it's crowds go down in 1983 when we were more successful than the season before because there were less goals at our games. We reduced our goals against by 40 goals in the season.
We won the Cup that year too. Although being drawn away from home in every round didn't help the attendances.

Well - Derry City had a golden age from 1985 - c.1992. 10,000 average at home consistently, up to 3-4,000 for away games. Crowds that have not been witnessed at any other club since the 1950's/1960's.

And that in-turn created a golden age for First Division attendances overall for the 2 years we were in that division (1985-87). People evencame along to see their local club play, just because it was Derry City they were up against I found numerous examples of this at games myself.

[red bellied]

I was up in the Brandywell for a couple of games around 1990-91 and no way was there 10,000 at either of the games, about half of that and thats been generous.

[Dodge]

Derry crowds peaked about 1989 withe the treble season. Went down every season after that until a couple of years ago. OK now but nowhere enear that obviously.

[dcfcsteve]

I was up in the Brandywell for a couple of games around 1990-91 and no way was there 10,000 at either of the games, about half of that and thats been generous.

Hence why I put c. 1992 as the end of the golden age.

Dodge is right - the start of the end of the phenomenon came after the treble in 1989. 1991 was the start of a big decline, as we finished 7th that year - having been champions and then 2nd in the previous 2 years. We still got some good gates that year - though, as the season progressed they got worse, particularly against the less glamorous teams. I remember a game against UCD at the very end of the season where we only had about 900-1,000 !

[TonyD]

They aren't that good compared to other European results before, bar maybe Shels draw with Deporivo. See CTID's post for some examples.

Those results listed though tended to be one-offs. I would certainly say that the last 3-4 seasons have seen by far the most consistently good set of results the league has ever seen. It may not constitute a golden age, but I definietly think that, on the pitch at least, things are going in the right direction.

[red bellied]

Hence why I put c. 1992 as the end of the golden age.

Dodge is right - the start of the end of the phenomenon came after the treble in 1989. 1991 was the start of a big decline, as we finished 7th that year - having been champions and then 2nd in the previous 2 years. We still got some good gates that year - though, as the season progressed they got worse, particularly against the less glamorous teams. I remember a game against UCD at the very end of the season where we only had about 900-1,000 !

1989-90 so would of been the end of the Derry City age. Played Rovers in a cup replay in the Showgrounds the following season, no more than one hundred away supporters. Sticks in my head because Rovers had just been promoted compared to the previous time Derry came in their thousands.

[CollegeTillIDie]

pineapple stu

Given there was only 2 points for a win at the time in both Leagues, Rovers would have picked up 2 points out of 4 , had these been League games.
Hardly a disgraceful showing.

[dcfcsteve]

1989-90 so would of been the end of the Derry City age. Played Rovers in a cup replay in the Showgrounds the following season, no more than one hundred away supporters. Sticks in my head because Rovers had just been promoted compared to the previous time Derry came in their thousands.

At the most it was the very start of the end, but certainly not the end as you suggest. A club doesn't win a treble at the end of one season in front of full-houses, and then find the next season that they've been deserted and are playing in-front of a couple of hundred..

In 1989/90 we played Benfica in the European Champions Cup, and it was the first Irish European game screened live on Irish TV (and, I believe, the first non Cup Final domestic game ever televised live as well). The hype and buzz was still clearly there for the team that season - I remember my school (the biggest in the city) having to close down early to allow people to go to the game, as otherwise they'd have had no teachers or pupils for the day. We finished the league that year in second place, and had decent crowds - particularly across the first half of the season. We also took a very big crowd away to Portugal. 1989/90 was far from a bad year for attendances overall, but a failure to match the previous year's success did start the process of missed expectations leading to a dwindling in the crowds.

Next season we were in Europe again - playing Vitesse - and crowds were fairly healthy for the start of the year (though down a bit overall on previous season). We won the League Cup and had a decent attendnace at the final, but then it just went wrong on the pitch and we slid down the league table, finsihing 7th. Fans used to huge success suddenly had the shock of us losing to fairly mediocre teams, and the crowds started to slide as a result. 1991 was therefore our annus horribilis really on the attendances and footballing front, and the clear start of the end for that particular golden era.

But never-mind - we've got another one now..... :D

[Dodge]

So basically what you're saying is that Pats beating Derry to the 1990 league title knocked 9,000 off your home gate? ;)

For the record the biggest (by far) crowd I've seen at a Pats home game was a game v Derry in March 1990. The whole of Harolds Cross was packed (even behind the goal).

[CollegeTillIDie]

Dodge

And losing the Cup semi-final too?