View Full Version : Indo story on new league
I'm pretty astounded to see Daniel McDonnell's article in the Indo today about the new league. This is their only news article on it, yet it is essentially opinion masquerading (barely) as news.
The headline sets the tone: "Golden ticket goes west in FAI farce". The piece itself then uses words like "sadly", "Naturally those clubs were absolutely furious", "has merely hightened people's suspicions" and it ends up with "Hardly the best way to turn over a new leaf, is it?"
Daniel, of course, is a Dundalk fan - and as the article was so opinion-based and partial, he may as well have admitted that.
He has a great future in journalism but the Indo should clarify what is passing as news and what is passing as comment in future.
bohs til i die
12/12/2006, 9:40 AM
I'm pretty astounded to see Daniel McDonnell's article in the Indo today about the new league. This is their only news article on it, yet it is essentially opinion masquerading (barely) as news.
The headline sets the tone: "Golden ticket goes west in FAI farce". The piece itself then uses words like "sadly", "Naturally those clubs were absolutely furious", "has merely hightened people's suspicions" and it ends up with "Hardly the best way to turn over a new leaf, is it?"
Daniel, of course, is a Dundalk fan - and as the article was so opinion-based and partial, he may as well have admitted that.
He has a great future in journalism but the Indo should clarify what is passing as news and what is passing as comment in future.
Dundalk won the promotion/relegation playoff but arent promoted. It is a farce.
BrayUnknowns
12/12/2006, 9:43 AM
He does has valid points though in what he has wrote.
"Golden ticket goes west in FAI farce" - This is true.
"Sadly" - Yes Sadly the top 12 teams could not be decided ON the pitch, the way it should be done.
"Naturally those clubs were absolutely furious" - This was always going to be the case no matter if it was Bray, UCD, Waterford, Galway or Dunbdalk that did not get into the premiership.
"has merely hightened people's suspicions" - All you have to do is look at the response on the message board to know that people are highly suspicious.
So did Daniel actually say anything that wasn't true?
Unless there is proper transparency and all results are released by the FAI this whole thing is a joke. It's bad enough to assess all the criteria mostly on the basis of a feckin one hour presentation, but to then do it without transparency makes it far, far worse. Naturally in that circumstance there'll be suspicions of a lack of fair play, let us say.
Pauro 76
12/12/2006, 9:48 AM
do we get to see the scores that determined the new League line-up? will they be made public? If so, the play-off was pointless. only in Ireland could a play-off match with so much to play for be null and void in the end just because a few stuffed suits in the FAI say so.
Larry 'da' Wyse
12/12/2006, 9:50 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the criteria to get into the premier league based, along with other things, on your performace over the last 5 years - including this year?
Dundalk are having a hissy-fit over having to play the 'play off' games when it is claimed there was nothing at stake. Surely by winning the ties their chance of getting into the premier division increased and Waterford's lessened so there was something to play for. When this is added to their overall score (along with off field admin etc.) they still didn't beat Galway.
As a neutral on this issue I can't see what the problem is for the club.
mcgonigle
12/12/2006, 9:51 AM
No everything he said is completely true, JW is just concerned because he will now have to explain to none eircom league supporters why their in the premier, have fun
Dundalk finished behind us in both on- and off-the-pitch criteria.
The point I'm making is that this is an opinion piece, not a news story. It is their only "news" story on the event.
"Dundalk won the promotion/relegation playoff but arent promoted. It is a farce."
There shouldn't have been a playoff, and Casey admitted his misgivings about that. Otherwise, Dundalk voted in favour of the new FAI league so they knew all along that they were far from certain to finish in the top 12 when the points were tallied.
mcgonigle
12/12/2006, 9:54 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the criteria to get into the premier league based, along with other things, on your performace over the last 5 years - including this year?
No it was based on 4 years (cheers Kildare), if it was 5 years Dundalk would prob be in the premier now.
The off the field points came mostly form licensing apparently. Dundalk acheived the premier standard and more off field IAG points than Shels, Drogheda and Rovers (at least) so they've every right to be annoyed. They're good enough off the field according to the IAG and they won promotion on the field last season, the fact they're excluded shows what a sham it is. If you weren't a Galway fan, would you be complainging about Dan's piece JW?
No everything he said is completely true, JW is just concerned because he will now have to explain to none eircom league supporters why their in the premier, have fun
You shouldn't use words such as sadly in a news story. That is not fair reporting. Let the reader decide from the facts - not your own opinion.
I have no problem explaining why we're in the new league. If you had a problem, you should have voiced it 18 months ago when Dundalk and everyone else voted for this process.
I agree that Dundalk don't really have much of a leg to stand on, but I still think that if the points are not given out publicly (and by the FAI, not leaked) and in detail that the process is a farce, and is open to allegations of unfairness.
If you weren't a Galway fan, would you be complainging about Dan's piece JW?
If I were a Dundalk fan, I'd have been very angry that the playoff took place, but otherwise not angry about what happened yesterday because everyone knew all season that this was an exceptional season.
The fact that I'm a Galway fan Dodge has no bearing whatever on my opinion on how news stories and opinion pieces should not be one and the same thing in journalism. It would be alarming if you didn't agree.
mcgonigle
12/12/2006, 9:58 AM
I have no problem explaining why we're in the new league. If you had a problem, you should have voiced it 18 months ago when Dundalk and everyone else voted for this process.
Yes I'm sure you will have a wonderful tale of marketability, financial stability and off the field triumph, but they'll still say "but you came third"
We were comfortably ahead of Dundalk in points both on and off the pitch over the five seasons. Is it only now, mcgonigle, that you've realised that this season's First Division was not going to determine by itself who got into the new league?
Dodge
12/12/2006, 10:02 AM
Nobody buys a newspaper these days for news, its all about opinions. It doesn't require them to put an op/ed tag on it IMO. I've no problem at all with Dan's piece. In a world of Emmet malone's etc he's hardly unique. The fact that you're a Galway fan absolutely has an impact on you bringing this up. He, and many others, have written similar pieces all year and you wait until now to complain?
bohs til i die
12/12/2006, 10:02 AM
Dundalk finished behind us in both on- and off-the-pitch criteria.
The point I'm making is that this is an opinion piece, not a news story. It is their only "news" story on the event.
"Dundalk won the promotion/relegation playoff but arent promoted. It is a farce."
There shouldn't have been a playoff, and Casey admitted his misgivings about that. Otherwise, Dundalk voted in favour of the new FAI league so they knew all along that they were far from certain to finish in the top 12 when the points were tallied.
Clubs were having a carrot dangled in front of them by the FAI and the clubs voted in favour because they had no other option. Lets be honest, apart from Derry who can **** off back to the Irish League if they ever feel like it, what other option has the clubs got?
They had no choice but to sign up to this farce.
Louth4sam
12/12/2006, 10:04 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the criteria to get into the premier league based, along with other things, on your performace over the last 5 years - including this year?
Dundalk are having a hissy-fit over having to play the 'play off' games when it is claimed there was nothing at stake. Surely by winning the ties their chance of getting into the premier division increased and Waterford's lessened so there was something to play for. When this is added to their overall score (along with off field admin etc.) they still didn't beat Galway.
As a neutral on this issue I can't see what the problem is for the club.
Firstly we signed up for the last 5 years. Five years ago we won the cup and finished 10th in the premier. The FAI had to change this to four years when the realised that Kildare were not around five years ago. Secondly according to the FAI Galway scored more in off the field then all other clubs. All people want to see is how they scored the points and for what. Why will the FAI not release this information? Surly if Galway are the best run club in the country they should be a model for other clubs so would this information not be worthy of being released
Most football fans will agree that the whole selection process is a farce and that football should be decided on a pitch but thats they way the FAI chose to run the league so we are going to have to live with it.
mcgonigle
12/12/2006, 10:05 AM
Of course I knew that JW, but since were talking about history, how can a club that has achieved very little and has spent the same amount of time as us in the first division bring anythin to the premier that we cant
Nobody buys a newspaper these days for news, its all about opinions. It doesn't require them to put an op/ed tag on it IMO. I've no problem at all with Dan's piece. In a world of Emmet malone's etc he's hardly unique. The fact that you're a Galway fan absolutely has an impact on you bringing this up. He, and many others, have written similar pieces all year and you wait until now to complain?
I can't say I read the paper every day. If newspaper readers have no problem with opinion being presented as news, there is no future for journalism as we know it.
I admit it is tough on Dundalk mcgonigle, but the noises from Oriel were that, privately, they knew all season that they were not in a good situation vis-a-vis the criteria.
bohs til i die
12/12/2006, 10:17 AM
I admit it is tough on Dundalk mcgonigle, but the noises from Oriel were that, privately, they knew all season that they were not in a good situation vis-a-vis the criteria.
This season had begun before the criteria were decided upon, and clubs were in the dark half way through the season about the criteria for inclusion in the Premier Division
I seem to remember a few managers getting fined for criticising the FAI/league for the lack of clarity over the new league
Clubs didnt know all season long what the criteria was. Thats the biggest reason why this whole thing was a farce.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 10:30 AM
I can't say I read the paper every day. If newspaper readers have no problem with opinion being presented as news, there is no future for journalism as we know it.
If readers can't distinguish between the two, they shouldn't be reading them at all.
So what do you propose for those with less intellectual ability Dodge?
If readers can't distinguish between the two, they shouldn't be reading them at all.
I actually think the article is reasonable enough. It seems to me to highlight the lack of transparency rather than Dundalk should be promoted, but does have a few digs that are clearly backing Dundalk's case.
Opinion is fine if the readers know the potential bias - I doubt the wider public, including those that didn't frequent the old eL mb, know that he is/was a big Dundalk fan.
Frankfurt Hoop
12/12/2006, 10:43 AM
Even if the on field criteria had gone back an extra year Dundalk wouldn't have made it. They won the cup and they got relegated in the missing year. That wouldn't have made up 54 points on Galway.
mcgonigle
12/12/2006, 10:47 AM
So what do you propose for those with less intellectual ability Dodge?
Read foot.ie posts :p
I doubt the wider public, including those that didn't frequent the old eL mb, know that he is/was a big Dundalk fan.
This is one of my gripes Macy.
What's the story with Longford, by the way? Will you have a player next season?
Read foot.ie posts :p
Touché
:D
What's the story with Longford, by the way? Will you have a player next season?
Yellow packs from Poland seems to be the plan. :eek: We appear to be finally getting realism in the playing budget, well actually started last season too but more out of contract now. Good news for the club but were it'll leave us on the pitch we'll have to wait and see. My hope is for the supporters expectations to match the realism of the budget.
galwayhoop
12/12/2006, 10:57 AM
Yes I'm sure you will have a wonderful tale of marketability, financial stability and off the field triumph, but they'll still say "but you came third"
do you really believe that!
denmark won euro 92 having only got there after yugoslavia were thrown out... when the champions league started people said that it wasn't the same if you won it and weren't champions of your own league the previous year.... the world moves on
the dust will settle the hoop-a-la will die down and when next season rolls around people will not really worry how GUFC got to premier division and similarly people (excluding yourselves) won't really care that dundalk and waterford are in 1st division. life will go on and other than those teams directly affected (GUFC, DFC, WUFC) no-one will give a toss - despite all the talk you will find that no-one other than yourselves will support any stand that ye may take esp. not UCD or BWFC!!!
It always amazes me how Longford have done so well given their hugely limited potential. I sincerely hope things don't go badly wrong next season.
gael353
12/12/2006, 11:00 AM
wait till jabus gets onto this thread, he'll only destroy you again and again and again..
WeAreRovers
12/12/2006, 11:18 AM
Very poor piece by McDonnell - following up his nonsense about John Courtenay last week - I had high hopes for this young man but he's lost in bitterness and college newspaper amateurism. Mind you, he's only as deluded and bitter as his club's idiot manager. :rolleyes:
KOH
To all the people who think this is a farce - why were you not complaining when the whole process was initiated??? Surely it makes sense to complain before you enter a process instead of when you don't like the result.
There was no promotion/relegation playoff!!!
All clubs voted in favour of this!
I agree that the FAI should announce the final scores broken down into categories otherwise will just see bits & pieces leaked by clubs to suit their own purposes.
I presume the bigger Premier division clubs didn't make a massive effort on the off the field presentations because they knew would be in the new League almost solely based on the on the field criteria so Dundalk bettering some off the field means nothing as decision based on overall aggregatre score from 1000 points!
I was complaining from the start Pete, and demanding transparency as well, as were several other people too.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 11:27 AM
To all the people who think this is a farce - why were you not complaining when the whole process was initiated??? Surely it makes sense to complain before you enter a process instead of when you don't like the result.
WTF!?!?! Are you new here?
Dundalk never had a chance so nobody's surprised they didn't make it. Doesn't mean we can't say they don't deserve to be there.
Waterford/Galway was the only minor schock, and even then not to many
eamo1
12/12/2006, 11:33 AM
in my opinion too.he makes valid points about transparency but i was also expecting a feature or something on galway utd and the hard work the board put in over the last 3 years.but thats good because now people wont know just how good niall and nick are and wont try take them from us.:) .but it looks like from the coverage that utd just fluked their way in,theres just no mention of all the hard work done leadng up to yesterdays date and thats what hurts.the hard work got them in,not any fluke.
and utd got screwed a few seasons ago ina playoff final and i thought that could have cost us our place.if we got up we would have probably come straight back down but we would have had more on the field points.as it turned out we finished ahead of dundalk both on and off the pitch and thats fair-because dundalk only finished ahead of us once over the past 4 seasons,so thats part of the transparency of why we got in ahead of dundalk.
yesterday was utds day in the sun but its clouded over by moaners and sore losers.
dcfcsteve
12/12/2006, 11:34 AM
Dundalk won the promotion/relegation playoff but arent promoted. It is a farce.
They knew the play-off could turn out to be meaningless before they even played it.
All clubs knew what was going on a long time ago.
It is therefore not a farce. The only farcical behaviour is to be told a situation (a new league chosen largely on off-the-pitch merit), and then bury your head in the sand and complain when that situation doesn't work in your favour - preferring to instead claim that a different situation (the play-off result) should apply, when you knew all along it was unlikely to have any impact.
DmanDmythDledge
12/12/2006, 11:35 AM
Unless there is proper transparency and all results are released by the FAI this whole thing is a joke. It's bad enough to assess all the criteria mostly on the basis of a feckin one hour presentation, but to then do it without transparency makes it far, far worse. Naturally in that circumstance there'll be suspicions of a lack of fair play, let us say.
Firstly the points that each club received have been issued publicly. Secondly the presentation only made up 10% or less.
No it was based on 4 years (cheers Kildare), if it was 5 years Dundalk would prob be in the premier now.
Have you seen how many points you were behind Galway?
NY Hoop
12/12/2006, 11:36 AM
McDonnell is a Dundalk fan. Tosh really bit it is the indo............
KOH
dcfcsteve
12/12/2006, 11:44 AM
Nobody buys a newspaper these days for news, its all about opinions.
Speak for yourself Dodge !
Some of us like to find out what's happening in the world without 'news' being hidden behind a writer's personal opinion, so we can then make uour own minds about what's happening....
In a world of Emmet malone's etc he's hardly unique.
I've just read the Times article on it today and the difference could hardly be more stark.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 11:50 AM
Yeah Read it myself. Not denying malone's a better journalist. Jsut saying that he's not afraid to voice his opinions. maybe not on this topic but then thats the point I'm making
Oh and Steve most people get their news from TV, Radio and the INternet now. By the the time a newspaper comes out everybody already knows the story, they're looking for more than that (Investigation, background, context, opinions, analysis etc)
It turns out that this whole thing/thread has been based on something out of said journalist's hands. He just assured me that he had written two articles - one news, one opinion. It seems that the Indo hadn't space to publish the news piece, but just went with the opinion piece. That's how it seems anyway.
This is sloppy in my view but Dan would seem to be pretty much blameless as he wrote the piece as an opinion piece.
seand
12/12/2006, 11:56 AM
As ever, there are several issues getting mixed up here.
1) JW's main gripe seems to be with the Indo and their standards of journalism. Yes it is an opinion piece rather than a news feature, and perhaps it should have been presented as such. However its pretty well written and fair, which is a lot more than one can reasonably expect from the Indo. Independent Newspapers are at the forefront of the media race to the gutter in Ireland. Tabloidism has won, the Irish Times is slowly slipping in the same direction.
2) The whole situation IS a farce. Just because clubs were bullied into it and have known (or should have known) that it was a farce does not mean that it is not a farce. If you don’t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.
dcfcsteve
12/12/2006, 11:56 AM
Oh and Steve most people get their news from TV, Radio and the INternet now. By the the time a newspaper comes out everybody already knows the story, they're looking for more than that (Investigation, background, context, opinions, analysis etc)
That might reflect your motivation in buying a paper, but that doesn't make it reflective of everyone else !
By their very nature, TV/Radio/Internet only run with a relatively small number of key top stories. If you want a broader vioew of the news, you have to resort to papers. And that's before we even get onto the virtual dependency of loads of towns and areas on their local newspapers....
People who want opinions over news read tabloid rags. People who want news and opinion clearly delineated buy the traditional broadsheets/'quality' press'. The 2 styles of journalism are easily demarcated in that way, and should remain so.
You've a strange attitude towards the Independent group from someone who is happy to take Sir Anthony's Shilling JW
with no conscience
the future of journalism is bleak....
As ever, there are several issues getting mixed up here.
1) JW's main gripe seems to be with the Indo and their standards of journalism. Yes it is an opinion piece rather than a news feature, and perhaps it should have been presented as such. However its pretty well written and fair, which is a lot more than one can reasonably expect from the Indo. Independent Newspapers are at the forefront of the media race to the gutter in Ireland. Tabloidism has won, the Irish Times is slowly slipping in the same direction.
2) The whole situation IS a farce. Just because clubs were bullied into it and have known (or should have known) that it was a farce does not mean that it is not a farce. If you don’t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.
Did ya ever hear of the words wheat and chaff?
This process marks a cut off point - and regardless of where the axe fell there was always going to be grumbles from the perceived losers
the reality is in a few weeks time this will all die down clubs will get on with it and it will be sink or swim time for those clubs and how they ultimately perform in the real world outside of the IAG room.
just get on with it ffs
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