View Full Version : eL Clubs bullied in Transfer Market
A face
04/12/2006, 10:57 PM
eL Clubs bullied in Transfer Market .... we all know its true but what can be done to stop it .... the FAI obviously wont do anything to help, preventing their own staff from making a few quid on the side.
Do clubs have to manage players contracts centrally ala IRFU to prevent anyone selling the league out and devalue eL players by selling them for a packet of magic beans.
Barr the "send a few petrol bombs through the windows of merrion square to wake the fúckers up" tactic (in responce to this question in the pub recently) What should the FAI*/League Clubs/PFAI/Tooth Fairy be doing to pull this farcical situation out of the fire ??
* It was pointed out in a recent conversation on the said topic that the FAI are as useful as a glass hammer when it comes to advising/assisting/doing anything regards eL clubs managing their primary assets (players) so they dont come into it (unless their staff are making a few quid)
If this were to be made into a poll, what should the options be?
Celdrog
04/12/2006, 11:03 PM
Anyone else understand what the hell A Face is on about?
dcfcsteve
04/12/2006, 11:04 PM
The answer is so simple, even the kids of Grange Hill got it.
"Just say no".
If an Irish club has a player under contract and they then get "bullied" into selling that player on the cheap, then they have no-one to blame but themselves.
Growing some balls and sending key Board members of all clubs on a negoitiation course would be of more use than any notion of giving the FAI central control over contracts etc. They'd only make things worse....
Clubs have to face up to their own responsibilities here. Not everything in Irish football is soemone else's fault.
OneRedArmy
04/12/2006, 11:09 PM
Face its up to the clubs and club administrators to sort this out.
The sad truth is that EL clubs, generally, whilst purporting to be "professional" in terms of wages, training and the like have not been managed in a manner anywhere near what would pass for professionalism in any other multi-million euro business (which the bigger EL clubs are).
Until the quality of football administrators improves (as opposed to decent "football men" doing their best in their spare time which is generally the approach to running a club) we are going to continue to be taken for a ride by foreign clubs.
The salary cap should address this as clubs in their search for short-term success tend to pile money into players pockets whilst running the rest of the operation on a shoestring, which is a recipe for long-term failure.
Bottom line is that this is one area where the EL clubs can't really blame anyone else as the labour market, even for footballers, is subject to free market rules.
A face
04/12/2006, 11:14 PM
Not everything in Irish football is soemone else's fault.
I understand that but .... ..... does something radical not have to happen? I'm only putting the question out there.
Eamon Zayed .... that Norway thing
Wel Hoolihan .... joke
Kevin Doyle .... Pat "the joker" Dolan
Daryl Murphy
And more in recent times
but
Jason Byrne .... Shels telling someone where to go
Was a small bit of positivity (sp?) on this side of things.
I know clubs are at fault but what the fook can be done about it? I mean clubs are willingly selling their souls, should there be some sort of policy implemented??
I dunno ... i dont have the answers lads .... debate it, well everyone barr Celdrog !! :eek: :p
Jerry The Saint
04/12/2006, 11:22 PM
Not sure what specific cases of 'bullying' are happening at the moment :confused: People may have different opinions on the fair value of certain players depending on various factors. We all know Reading took advantage of the terms of Doyle's contract with Cork, the same way Cork did when buying him off Pats.
Shels turned down offers of several hundred thousand euro for Jason Byrne from overseas clubs at a time when they were unable to pay wages and taxes. Now THAT'S 'unprofessional' as far as I'm concerned.
dcfcsteve
04/12/2006, 11:29 PM
I understand that but .... ..... does something radical not have to happen?
I know clubs are at fault but what the fook can be done about it? I mean clubs are willingly selling their souls, should there be some sort of policy implemented??
But the answer is simple. Just say no !
It's a radically simple concept. Clubs don't have to sell contracted players to anyone for anything. It's their call. As clubs get less starry-eyed and excited at the smell of a bundle of cash, they'll feel better able to say no. the price paid for Irish players will rise, encoirage other clubs to do likewise.
But unlike the Virgin Credit Card ads, it all starts with a "no"
Student Mullet
04/12/2006, 11:43 PM
A key thing to take into account is wheather the player wants to move. The three UCD lads in england want to leave to play full time. You might say that if we take 50,000 or whatever we're undervaluing them (and you'd probably be right) but no eL club will likely pay more and they want to go so chances are that they will go for a lot less than an english club would get for the same player.
A face
05/12/2006, 12:00 AM
Right .... we have the bones of the problem and Steve i hear ya fella ... Say NO .... but is there anything else.
Lads i am bring this up because its been ringing in my ear for years. Its eL clubs kicking themselves in the árse but its actually a very serious problem if the league ever hopes to progress.
Players are the single most invested-in asset that clubs have .... they need to be protected or at least get ROI. There are practicing hazards etc. yeah but a change in attitude is screaming out to happen. But will it ??
we'll we've Turned down a €120,000 bid for ROD from Southend so hopefully thats a sign of things to come?
In all those transfers listed the clubs choose to accept bids from those foreign clubs.
The only future this league has is selling layers for decent money that can be re-invested in other players & then for the cycle to continue. Suggesting eL should not sell players is head in the sand stuff as its an important revenue source.
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 11:00 AM
we'll we've Turned down a €120,000 bid for ROD from Southend so hopefully thats a sign of things to come?
It's a bit of a poker game. Shels refused a huge bid for Byrne and will never receive anything like it again. If you turn down too many bids they'll eventually stop coming in. ROD will eventually leave for nothing in a few years so Cork should sell him if a decent bid comes in. I agree that €120k is too low. But it'll take precedents to continue raising the bar. Currently the bar is set quite low with Kevin Doyle.
dcfcsteve
05/12/2006, 11:06 AM
It's a bit of a poker game. Shels refused a huge bid for Byrne and will never receive anything like it again. If you turn down too many bids they'll eventually stop coming in. ROD will eventually leave for nothing in a few years so Cork should sell him if a decent bid comes in. I agree that €120k is too low. But it'll take precedents to continue raising the bar. Currently the bar is set quite low with Kevin Doyle.
Shelbourne's decision on Jason Byrne was just pure stupid.
Even if he had won them the league single-handedly this season, they'd still have made more money by selling him anyway.
bigmac
05/12/2006, 11:19 AM
But what happens when a player wants to leave? A lot of players will be given assurances that if an English club comes in for them the club they're at "won't stand in their way". It's all about balance really. If you want to be able to turn down offers then you have to negotiate a contract that enables you to do that, without the chance of your player later leaving for nothing. This means that perhaps you have to pay them more to start with. It's a difficult situation, but effectively in the EL, if a player wants to leave, there's nothing that the clubs can do except attempt to maximise the money they get - a sell-on clause for example.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 12:14 PM
If you turn down too many bids they'll eventually stop coming in. ROD will eventually leave for nothing in a few years so Cork should sell him if a decent bid comes in.
once again, unlike your "club"/squad we have a reason for existing and can/want to/try to win stuff so if holding on to roy means potentially losing out on €300,000 but doing better in the league, perhaps we should hold on to him.
Suppose we sold roy now, and did nothing in the setanta cup. would it have been worth it? his goals alone could win us something similar to his transfer value.
paudie
05/12/2006, 12:18 PM
ROD will eventually leave for nothing in a few years so Cork should sell him if a decent bid comes in. .
Before that even. I think his contract is up in July.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 12:20 PM
Before that even. I think his contract is up in July.
its not, that was spillage making stuff up as usual. why would his contract be up in july when he signed for us in january? they printed a correction a few days later after widespread panic.
paudie
05/12/2006, 12:24 PM
its not, that was spillage making stuff up as usual. why would his contract be up in july when he signed for us in january? they printed a correction a few days later after widespread panic.
Fair enough. Hadn't seen the correction.
Eamon Zayed .... that Norway thing
That was actually great business A Face. Probably not ideal from a playing point of view, but the money was excellent business, and then they got him back and sold him again.
Jason Byrne .... Shels telling someone where to go
Was a small bit of positivity (sp?) on this side of things.
However, that was mainly because they were trying to bully Bray into a smaller cut than they were due, so it actually wasn't positive at all unless it's okay between eL clubs?
Bottom line is that most clubs are desperate for money, hence why they accept deals lower than the worth of the player in the UK market. €50k is a lot of money for most clubs in the league.
imo we're back to a properly implemented licencing system as the solution. If clubs weren't walking such a financial tightrope then they'd be in a position to play hardball. This is where the FAI come in, rather than interferring in transfer policies.
btw aren't the 3 UCD lads out of contract?
its not, that was spillage making stuff up as usual. why would his contract be up in july when he signed for us in january? they printed a correction a few days later after widespread panic.
I believe the confusion probably arisen becaus ehe signhed an extension during the summer of 2005. Just because he signed in the summer does not mean the contract ends in the summer.
For whats its worth Roy O'Donovan has said he not leaving unless club wants him to leave. I think UK clubs still look down on the eL & severly undervalue players but hopefully it can change. Southend would not get a Conference player for 120k & Roy O'D is a B international! When accessing how eL players have done abroad you need to compare with similarly valued players.
dcfcsteve
05/12/2006, 12:27 PM
Suppose we sold roy now, and did nothing in the setanta cup. would it have been worth it? his goals alone could win us something similar to his transfer value.
The answer is probably yes.
Winning Setanta would get you €150k prize money, and probably no more than an additional €20k all-in-all in ticket sales, merchandise etc.
Therefore - even if an individual player could be single-handedly given the credit for winning any trophy (extremely unlikely for anyone bar the likes of Maradonna, Pele and Keane in their prime) then turning down €300k in the hope of winning €170k would be very bad business by any judgement.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 12:32 PM
The answer is probably yes.
Winning Setanta would get you €150k prize money, and probably no more than an additional €20k all-in-all in ticket sales, merchandise etc.
Therefore - even if an individual player could be single-handedly given the credit for winning any trophy (extremely unlikely for anyone bar the likes of Maradonna, Pele and Keane in their prime) then turning down €300k in the hope of winning €170k would be very bad business by any judgement.
thats just one cup though. suppose roy keeps on scoring, we win the league and do ok in europe, then leaves for free and joins coventry or someone. we'd probably still lose money, but we'd have succeeded in our objectives. nobody is in this business to make money so you have to ask yourself - what price are you willing to pay for success?
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 12:32 PM
once again, unlike your "club"/squad we have a reason for existing and can/want to/try to win stuff so if holding on to roy means potentially losing out on €300,000 but doing better in the league, perhaps we should hold on to him.
Suppose we sold roy now, and did nothing in the setanta cup. would it have been worth it? his goals alone could win us something similar to his transfer value.
Your squad's quality is being whittled away by losing players for nothing or next to nothing leaving you unable to replace them. It's about time you started cashing in. The extra prize money gained by winning the Setanta won't be worth the 300k fee. If ROD is the difference between you winning things or not winning then you're a one man team and you need to address that problem sooner or later.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 12:35 PM
Your squad's quality is being whittled away by losing players for nothing or next to nothing leaving you unable to replace them.
yes, because mick devine/dan murray/joe gamble/george o'callaghan/roy o'donovan were so expensive :rolleyes:
the squad was being whittled down because we simpled had no money to even extend contracts. now we do.
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 12:40 PM
yes, because mick devine/dan murray/joe gamble/george o'callaghan/roy o'donovan were so expensive :rolleyes:
the squad was being whittled down because we simpled had no money to even extend contracts. now we do.
Now you might have some money, but only due to new investors (though it remains to be seen what they're going to do and put in). Why do you think you had no money? The best way to run a club is to have it as a self sustaining entity that generates its own revenue rather than the Ollie Byrne approach of waiting around for investors who may never come and selling capital assets.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 12:45 PM
Why do you think you had no money? The best way to run a club is to have it as a self sustaining entity that generates its own revenue rather than the Ollie Byrne approach of waiting around for investors who may never come and selling capital assets.
We had no money because there is no money to be made in bettering the eircom league, short term. long term, it is the clubs who have spent money and invested in both playing staff and infrastructure who will eventually be able to sustain themselves by attracting crowds; something sitting idlely by on a low-cost, low-expectations model will never do, especially in a city with 5 clubs.
dcfcsteve
05/12/2006, 12:52 PM
thats just one cup though. suppose roy keeps on scoring, we win the league and do ok in europe, then leaves for free and joins coventry or someone. we'd probably still lose money, but we'd have succeeded in our objectives. nobody is in this business to make money so you have to ask yourself - what price are you willing to pay for success?
Suppose Roy doesn't keep on scoring ? Suppose he gets injured ? Suppose, suppose, suppose....
You may think multi-million Euro business shoudld be run on the basis of fantasy, but I hope and doubt your board do.
What price are you willing to pay for success ? The question is more - what is the price of success. Your team achieved nothing this season because you'd no money, so there's your answer....
dcfcsteve
05/12/2006, 12:54 PM
We had no money because there is no money to be made in bettering the eircom league, short term. long term, it is the clubs who have spent money and invested in both playing staff and infrastructure who will eventually be able to sustain themselves by attracting crowds; something sitting idlely by on a low-cost, low-expectations model will never do, especially in a city with 5 clubs.
Wel - if there is no money to be made in the Eircom League, then you really should stop looking for investors and instead start looking to develop talent, utilise them to be successful, and then sell them on at a good price to genearte the cash to improve your club whilst starting the conveyor process again. As otherwise you ain't gonna see much success....
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 12:56 PM
We had no money because there is no money to be made in bettering the eircom league, short term. long term, it is the clubs who have spent money and invested in both playing staff and infrastructure who will eventually be able to sustain themselves by attracting crowds; something sitting idlely by on a low-cost, low-expectations model will never do, especially in a city with 5 clubs.
It's doing grand. Top half of the table finish (an inch off fifth place), two U-21 internationals, a nice new stadium. No need to jepardise our existence with spending money that simply does not exist. UCD's position isn't all that dissimilar from Hibs in Scotland. Capital side, great at developing young talent, move them on to a bigger club for money and start the process over again. They've little hope of ever winning the league and only make the odd cup final. No one suggests they pack it in.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 1:58 PM
Suppose Roy doesn't keep on scoring ? Suppose he gets injured ? Suppose, suppose, suppose....is that what football is all about? suppose we do hang on to him, he stays for a few years and becomes the eL's first million euro player? you can go on and and with the speculation but the truth is, the only thing that will ever better/secure financial standing of the clubs is a solid support base attracted by good, exciting players and teams that are going somewhere.
You may think multi-million Euro business shoudld be run on the basis of fantasy, but I hope and doubt your board do.
What price are you willing to pay for success ? The question is more - what is the price of success. Your team achieved nothing this season because you'd no money, so there's your answer....apart from finishing third in the "real" league table and reaching a cup final, sure, lets say we achieved nothing this season. what has that got to do with last season's success?
Wel - if there is no money to be made in the Eircom League, then you really should stop looking for investors and instead start looking to develop talent, utilise them to be successful, and then sell them on at a good price to genearte the cash to improve your club whilst starting the conveyor process again. As otherwise you ain't gonna see much success....as i said, there is no money to be made in the short term without improving the standard and increasing the support. UCD have no hope of doing either and will be left behind in the league, sooner or later. if they're existing simply to train players for other clubs, perhaps they should look into being an academy or a junior club, rather than existing as an oddity in what will hopefully be a professional league soon.
GavinZac
05/12/2006, 1:59 PM
It's doing grand. Top half of the table finish (an inch off fifth place), two U-21 internationals, a nice new stadium. No need to jepardise our existence with spending money that simply does not exist. UCD's position isn't all that dissimilar from Hibs in Scotland. Capital side, great at developing young talent, move them on to a bigger club for money and start the process over again. They've little hope of ever winning the league and only make the odd cup final. No one suggests they pack it in.
and they attract thousands of fans every week, because the club means something to the people of its city, rather than being a non entity college squad. hibernians are nothing like UCD.
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 2:03 PM
as i said, there is no money to be made in the short term without improving the standard and increasing the support. UCD have no hope of doing either
There's no actual reason that it's impossible for us to increase our support and you cannot say with absolute certainty that it will never happen. If being one of the top 6 sides in the country and bringing two Irish U-21 internationals into the eL is not helping the standard then what is?
and will be left behind in the league, sooner or later. if they're existing simply to train players for other clubs, perhaps they should look into being an academy or a junior club, rather than existing as an oddity in what will hopefully be a professional league soon
The league has come on strides in the last few years and so have UCD. We've improved our league position several years running. Like the league we've been moving up and up and that's in spite of the addition of several full time teams.
endabob1
05/12/2006, 2:07 PM
Southend signed Freddy Eastwood for a "nominal fee" from Conference side Grays they're now quoting £5m for him, Grays do have an undisclosed "hefty" sell-on fee as part of the deal. Which would you rather €120k or a smaller fee with say a 25% sell on fee, which in this case you could be looking at €1m
shels4ever
05/12/2006, 2:14 PM
I think you will find that Shels have mad more money by winning hte league then the would have by selling Jayo. Don't forget Bray are still after 50% of any sell on, so better to have him here .
tiktok
05/12/2006, 3:09 PM
Eircom League clubs generrally aren't bullied, generally they're poorly run, they allow clauses to go into contracts (such as the ones Kevin Doyle and Stephen Kenny had) and they live in such a short term fashion that they usually sell quickly because the long term is generally so uncertain, even for the likes of Shels and CCFC who have success and in the latters case, the leagues highest attendances.
The quickest way for clubs to stop this perceived 'bullying' is for them to sort out their own houses, invest in underage structures and become (as has been stated) a self sustaining entity.
Re: Roy O'Donovan, if anyone offers more than €200k for him, CCFC will probably sell him. He's worth a little, not a lot more.
This is a pointless debate as CCFC refused a 120k euro bid NOT 300k. :rolleyes:
Out of contract players is a fact of life in the eL. The only difference is we actually have players other people want. Where is the criticism of UCD for leaving Quigley go out of contract, Derry City for clause allowing Stephen Kenny to leave without compensation.
Soon clubs will need to set budgets out spending no more than 65% of turnover on wages. Assuming this implemented how can you increase the wages paid to a player 18 months into 24 month contract? Surely this will mean you break the wages budget that was planned at the start of the season?
Top eL sides should keep their best players on longer contracts & pay them well. No one is exactly queuing up for the rest anyway...
CollegeTillIDie
05/12/2006, 8:41 PM
A face
FYI
The Norway thing netted Bray Wanderers €50,000. They then sold him to Drogheda United for a fee. Nice bit of business I would say.
Wes Charles was loaned to Rostov On Don FC in Russia. That netted Bray Wanderers €40,000. Nice bit of business I would say.
Wes is now at Galway United I don't think a fee was involved. But are Bray bothered? Wes netted them €40,000 by going on loan !
pineapple stu
05/12/2006, 9:28 PM
btw aren't the 3 UCD lads out of contract?
Yes, but two (Quigley and Dicker) are under 23 and with us for two years. No-one here can yet say for sure whether that means we're entitled to compensation or not. An eL club would have to pay (like we got money for Cawley, Robbie Martin and Pat Sullivan), but I'm not 100% sure about transfers abroad.
CollegeTillIDie
05/12/2006, 9:44 PM
Are el clubs being ridden rock solid in the transfer market by English clubs?
BohsFans
05/12/2006, 9:55 PM
Yes, but two (Quigley and Dicker) are under 23 and with us for two years. No-one here can yet say for sure whether that means we're entitled to compensation or not. An eL club would have to pay (like we got money for Cawley, Robbie Martin and Pat Sullivan), but I'm not 100% sure about transfers abroad.
Whatever happened to Pat Sullivan? Left full wasn't he? Meant to be a very promising player.
Also no money was paid to Cork for the then U-23 players free move to $hels!
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 10:05 PM
Whatever happened to Pat Sullivan? Left full wasn't he? Meant to be a very promising player.
Right full. I think he got a cruciate knee injury before he even kicked a ball for them. Never seems to have gotten much first team action since his recovery.
Also no money was paid to Cork for the then U-23 players free move to $hels!
I think Kearney had passed his birthday by the time he actually got around to joining Shels.
dcfcsteve
06/12/2006, 12:25 AM
....even for the likes of Shels and CCFC who have success and in the latters case, the leagues highest attendances.
CCFC actually had neither of those things this season. Unless of course you include a Winding-up order under ther header of 'success'......... :o
I suspect you may have been getting the cities of Derry and Cork mixed-up here.... :rolleyes:
BobtheDrog
06/12/2006, 3:59 AM
[QUOTE=Poor Student;586886]Right full. I think he got a cruciate knee injury before he even kicked a ball for them. Never seems to have gotten much first team action since his recovery.
QUOTE]
Just after he signed he developed a serious virus which ruled him out for most of his first season however he returned shortly before the end of last season and played a handful of matches. Unfortunately he suffered a relapse in the close season and was unable to feature for the first team this season although he did play in the U21's match against Bray. Hopefully he has now recovered and will be able to return for next season although he'll struggle to get into the team ahead of lynch and shelley for the fullback position and whelan. barret and robinson for the left wing position where he can also play.
An eL club would have to pay (like we got money for Cawley, Robbie Martin and Pat Sullivan), but I'm not 100% sure about transfers abroad.
Yeah but you're still a small time non-entity for not demanding half a mill for each of them.
tiktok
06/12/2006, 9:17 AM
CCFC actually had neither of those things this season. Unless of course you include a Winding-up order under ther header of 'success'......... :o
I suspect you may have been getting the cities of Derry and Cork mixed-up here.... :rolleyes:
Just to make it clear exactly where you misunderstood me CCFC won the league in 2005, it didn't change the fact that in the 2006 season we lost players for free when we shouldn't have and we've lived with a short term outlook, which is the point I was making.
We weren't bullied e.g. we stood up to heerenveen re: Kearney we were just not professional enough and ended up losing him for free to Shels anyway.
As for attendances, if Derry had a higher average than us over the season, hurrah for you.
...and well done on being runners-up in the league again.
pineapple stu
06/12/2006, 12:35 PM
Whatever happened to Pat Sullivan? Left full wasn't he? Meant to be a very promising player.
What BobtheDrog says is true (leaving out the bits where Drogheda variously refused to pay us and him while he was ill), but I also thought that Doolin didn't really rate him as a player? Strange, I know, given the fact that he played him at UCD, but then Doolin does do some strange things.
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