View Full Version : Shels financial difficulties
chippie0001
22/11/2006, 10:49 AM
According to the back page of todays star and inside, senior Shels players and the management from Tolka are meeting tomorrow to discuss their futures. The players want assuarances on wages etc going forward.
I guess all the rumours can come to an end now soon enough, a Shels exodus will change the picture in the league, they all stay together and well we have to find players elsewhere :mad:
Jerry The Saint
22/11/2006, 11:09 AM
No doubt Ollie will come up with an unorthodox payment scheme to keep the squad together for another year...
http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/8d/79/0471347477-books-resized200.jpg
BohsPartisan
22/11/2006, 11:12 AM
they all stay together and well we have to find players elsewhere :mad:
Theres always Cork I suppose. ;)
razor
22/11/2006, 11:28 AM
Theres always Cork I suppose. ;)After the last batch? I don't think so, they'll be more than likely sending them back barely used.
OneRedArmy
22/11/2006, 12:27 PM
No doubt Ollie will come up with an unorthodox payment scheme to keep the squad together for another year...
http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/8d/79/0471347477-books-resized200.jpgAm I right in thinking that the presentations for next years licensing have already been made and that the licensing body will be making the decisions around about Christmas/New Year?
Surely Shels will be struggling on the financial section if wages were not being paid as recent as a couple of weeks ago?
Jerry The Saint
22/11/2006, 12:37 PM
Am I right in thinking that the presentations for next years licensing have already been made and that the licensing body will be making the decisions around about Christmas/New Year?
Surely Shels will be struggling on the financial section if wages were not being paid as recent as a couple of weeks ago?
No ground (or even substantial plans for one) in the long-term either.
dcfcsteve
22/11/2006, 12:45 PM
Footballers aren't Accountants. It would be easy enough to just say to them 'Look - this year we struggled without Champions League or Eircom Title money, but next year will be all different. Course you'll be paid - no problems' .
They're unlikely to have the knowledge to raise pertinent questions to challenge that or probe to much depth. And all Ollie has to do is persuade them he can deliver - once he keeps them there, he can worry about whether or not he can actually deliver aferwards.
Fenlon's attitude will be key. If he stays I reckon a lot of players will too. If he goes, it could all start to unrvel.
OneRedArmy
22/11/2006, 1:13 PM
Footballers aren't Accountants. It would be easy enough to just say to them 'Look - this year we struggled without Champions League or Eircom Title money, but next year will be all different. Course you'll be paid - no problems' .
They're unlikely to have the knowledge to raise pertinent questions to challenge that or probe to much depth. And all Ollie has to do is persuade them he can deliver - once he keeps them there, he can worry about whether or not he can actually deliver aferwards.
Fenlon's attitude will be key. If he stays I reckon a lot of players will too. If he goes, it could all start to unrvel.Steve, the players and Fenlon are immaterial in many ways.
Surely the major point here is that if he is being forced to dangle the carrot a few feet in front of their noses, yet again, Shels are in no position to convince or prove they will be financial solvent for all of the next season, which is the core aim of the financial section of the license.
After the Dublin City fiasco the Licensing body are duty bound to conduct a more thorough review and challenge of the financial submissions, to ensure that they don't make the same mistake of granting a license to a club thats fails to see the season out.
Whilst clearly only Ollie knows whats really going on, it doesn't look good for Shels at the minute based on what little info is available.
dcfcsteve
22/11/2006, 1:20 PM
Steve, the players and Fenlon are immaterial in many ways.
Surely the major point here is that if he is being forced to dangle the carrot a few feet in front of their noses, yet again, Shels are in no position to convince or prove they will be financial solvent for all of the next season, which is the core aim of the financial section of the license.
After the Dublin City fiasco the Licensing body are duty bound to conduct a more thorough review and challenge of the financial submissions, to ensure that they don't make the same mistake of granting a license to a club thats fails to see the season out.
Whilst clearly only Ollie knows whats really going on, it doesn't look good for Shels at the minute based on what little info is available.
Very true.
I can't see any of the main clubs getting refused a license through the process though.
Hopefully the Licensing Committee will probe more deeply on Shels this year, but I suspect that they wouldn't want to find any bad news by doing so - preferring instead not to probe, and then plead ignorance instead should something go wrong. They've already gotten off scott-free re the Dublin City demise.
OneRedArmy
22/11/2006, 1:29 PM
Very true.
I can't see any of the main clubs getting refused a license through the process though.
Hopefully the Licensing Committee will probe more deeply on Shels this year, but I suspect that they wouldn't want to find any bad news by doing so - preferring instead not to probe, and then plead ignorance instead should something go wrong. They've already gotten off scott-free re the Dublin City demise.Agree to a point, but remember some of the members are independent experts who have a reputation to worry about.
Ollies vindictive pursuit of some other clubs may come back to haunt him as I could see any license award being challenged in the courts unless Shels financial situation has visibly improved by the beginning of next season.
I also remain bemused as to why the PFAI haven't pursued Shels as vigorously through the press as they did Rovers, Harps, Dundalk and other clubs that have had financial issues.
I also remain bemused as to why the PFAI haven't pursued Shels as vigorously through the press as they did Rovers, Harps, Dundalk and other clubs that have had financial issues.
I've wondered about that myself- especially given that Shelbournes players don't have other jobs and are therefore hit harder by any delay in paying wages that part time players.
Philly
22/11/2006, 3:03 PM
Delaney has already said that the top two tiers of the new league will be made up of the current teams in the eL. That means all teams (plus one new one, in Dublins place) will have a slot. The requirements to get a license are strict, but they aren't actually used strictly. And the Dublin affair will change nothing. A
Lets face it, if every aspect of the licensing requirements were imposed to the letter not many clubs would be getting a D1 License, never mind a premier one. So why does everybody implie that Shels shouldn't get a license when the chances are - if the rules were totally followed - their clubs would also fail miserably.
OneRedArmy
22/11/2006, 3:17 PM
why does everybody implie that Shels shouldn't get a license when the chances are - if the rules were totally followed - their clubs would also fail miserably.Nonsense. Licensing isn't some kind of wishy washy aspirational 5 year plan. FFS its already been watered down once since the first season to be more achieveable in respect of the infrastructure section, which was probably the toughest to achieve.
The Licensing body are duty bound to assess applications against the current manual and identify where clubs don't meet the standard. The legal and financial criteria have been enforced in the past (ask Longford) and it would appear that Shels may have a particular problem here for next season, even compared with other clubs.
Schumi
22/11/2006, 4:02 PM
After the Dublin City fiasco the Licensing body are duty bound to conduct a more thorough review and challenge of the financial submissions, to ensure that they don't make the same mistake of granting a license to a club thats fails to see the season out.You'd have thought that Rovers' problems the previous year would have had a similar effect too, I won't hold my breath.
Philly
22/11/2006, 4:09 PM
Nonsense. Licensing isn't some kind of wishy washy aspirational 5 year plan. FFS its already been watered down once since the first season to be more achieveable in respect of the infrastructure section, which was probably the toughest to achieve.
The Licensing body are duty bound to assess applications against the current manual and identify where clubs don't meet the standard. The legal and financial criteria have been enforced in the past (ask Longford) and it would appear that Shels may have a particular problem here for next season, even compared with other clubs.
So you that Derry have passed all criteria with flying colours since the scheme was introduced?
Download the thing, read through it, and tick the boxes of all the set criteria and you'll see what I mean.
The Licensing body should do it's job properly. But then again if it did, we wouldn't actually have a league.
As for Longford, was that not down to an admin error? Sending something to the wrong address or something like that. Or maybe it was because the league were afraid they would represent us in Europe again in the future? :eek:
OneRedArmy
22/11/2006, 7:04 PM
So you that Derry have passed all criteria with flying colours since the scheme was introduced?No idea historically whether they have, but for the coming season I would hope that they do.
Download the thing, read through it, and tick the boxes of all the set criteria and you'll see what I mean.Have done, a few times. Its not rocket science.
The Licensing body should do it's job properly. But then again if it did, we wouldn't actually have a league.Disagree. We'd have a smaller, better run league. Don't drag everyone down to Shels level.
As for Longford, was that not down to an admin error? Sending something to the wrong address or something like that. Or maybe it was because the league were afraid they would represent us in Europe again in the future? :eek:No it may have been portrayed as an admin issue by the club, but it was a legal/financial issue IIRC. Sligo filling the application in in red pen was an "admin error" (not to mention a general reflection on how serious the process was being taken).
Sam Savic
22/11/2006, 10:04 PM
No ground (or even substantial plans for one) in the long-term either.
They have substantial plans alright. I've seen them. However, they can't get their hands on the substantial money. They can still show the plans to the FAI though. Remember the FAI showing EUFA a nice green field?
dcfcsteve
23/11/2006, 1:05 AM
So you that Derry have passed all criteria with flying colours since the scheme was introduced?
Well we were the first, and at the time only, club to get awarded an A license, and I've heard nothing to the contrary since, so I guess the answer to your question is 'yes'.
City spent a lot of time and money at the introduction of licensing to make sure we met the criteria. We were, in fact, the only club to take it completely seriously. It turned out that no-one else had bothered their arse to do likewise, and so effectively we had compromised our ability to spend income on our on-pitch performances for that season for absolutely nothing.
And what was the FAI's response ? Shift the boundaries to magically have everyone meet the appropriate license criteria. All that effort and money spent in Derry for feck all..... :mad: Makes you wonder if it's ever worth doing anythigng the FAI says.
Red&White
23/11/2006, 3:03 AM
So you that Derry have passed all criteria with flying colours since the scheme was introduced?
In a word....yes.
It turned out that no-one else had bothered their arse to do likewise, and so effectively we had compromised our ability to spend income on our on-pitch performances for that season for absolutely nothing.
And what was the FAI's response ? Shift the boundaries to magically have everyone meet the appropriate license criteria. All that effort and money spent in Derry for feck all
That sums up what is wrong with league. Even clubs that are doing it right have fans who'd prefer to have spent on players instead of doing things right.
btw A sure you got it first time, and there wasn't some issue over tax that youse threatened to go to court about? And then when he did get youse threatened to go to court about the other clubs?
OneRedArmy
23/11/2006, 8:17 AM
btw A sure you got it first time, and there wasn't some issue over tax that youse threatened to go to court about? There is no such thing as a tax clearance cert under the UK Revenue Macy, I thought you would know that! Yet the licensing body still tried to penalise us first time even though we had proved we had no tax outstanding.
There is no such thing as a tax clearance cert under the UK Revenue Macy, I thought you would know that! Yet the licensing body still tried to penalise us first time even though we had proved we had no tax outstanding.
I do know that - companies outside the state can get a statement of suitability from Revenue instead. They need to complete Revenue Form TC3a, for future reference.
Well we were the first, and at the time only, club to get awarded an A license, and I've heard nothing to the contrary since, so I guess the answer to your question is 'yes'.
City spent a lot of time and money at the introduction of licensing to make sure we met the criteria. We were, in fact, the only club to take it completely seriously. It turned out that no-one else had bothered their arse to do likewise, and so effectively we had compromised our ability to spend income on our on-pitch performances for that season for absolutely nothing.
And what was the FAI's response ? Shift the boundaries to magically have everyone meet the appropriate license criteria. All that effort and money spent in Derry for feck all..... :mad: Makes you wonder if it's ever worth doing anythigng the FAI says.
Thats looking thru very Rose tinted glasses Galway United have taken the Licencing matter seriously from Day one and we are hoping that this will pay off in the long run.
OneRedArmy
23/11/2006, 8:56 AM
I do know that - companies outside the state can get a statement of suitability from Revenue instead. They need to complete Revenue Form TC3a, for future reference.A TC3A is for foreign Companies tendering for public sector contracts in Ireland. Not exactly relevant and requires you to be registered for payment of tax in the Republic.
To the Galway fan, we were the only club to get an A license first time around. I am fully aware that Galway have been paragons of virtue in relation to licensing.
Statement of Suitability is the equivalent of tax clearance. It is mostly applicable for public sector contracts and grants, same as a tax clearance cert, and only requires registration for tax where appropriate. Irrelevant now anyway to Derry's case, as some fudge was obviously found to allow them to get the A Licence on appeal the first time.
You'd swear it was some disadvantage to having your club run properly in a sustainable way. I mean Derry have shown you can compete and if they continue to meet the critea should mean that their sorted for the foreseeable future.
Derry did not get the A license "first time round". They may have been the first to get it but the first letter they received stated they failed. Most clubs got it on first appeal. Most clubs haven't had a hint of trouble with it since, and most clubs take it very very seriously (Pats basically have a guy working full time just on licensing/IAG). Its just that the whole process is not taken seriously by the league or FAI (and obviously one or two clubs) and the standards set down are not enforced. Too much emphasis was placed on painting stairs (eg) while clubs were allowed into administration (rovers), face winding up orders (Cork, Shels) and fold (can't remember).
Then IAG came in and clubs had to redo everything and licensing became a secondary concern. All these demands were made of the clubs without a single cent coming in assistance from the league, FAI or the government.
OneRedArmy
23/11/2006, 10:23 AM
Derry did not get the A license "first time round". They may have been the first to get it but the first letter they received stated they failed. Most clubs got it on first appeal. Most clubs haven't had a hint of trouble with it since, and most clubs take it very very seriously (Pats basically have a guy working full time just on licensing/IAG). Its just that the whole process is not taken seriously by the league or FAI (and obviously one or two clubs) and the standards set down are not enforced. Too much emphasis was placed on painting stairs (eg) while clubs were allowed into administration (rovers), face winding up orders (Cork, Shels) and fold (can't remember).
Then IAG came in and clubs had to redo everything and licensing became a secondary concern. All these demands were made of the clubs without a single cent coming in assistance from the league, FAI or the government.Agree with the above.
Financial and legal should be prioritised in the short-term, with infrastructure being a medium-long term goal, aided by significant grant aid.
I would imagine the FAI will be taking it seriously this year as they won't want another club to go under in the first year of their stewardship.
dcfcsteve
23/11/2006, 10:24 AM
That sums up what is wrong with league. Even clubs that are doing it right have fans who'd prefer to have spent on players instead of doing things right.
That's not what i said at all Macy. I just pointed out that we were effectively penalised by diverting funds towards taking the licensing seriously when no-one else seemed to. That is faily indisputable.
We were clearly happy to spend money on Licenng, but it did us no good when the process suggested it should have.
Dodge
23/11/2006, 10:46 AM
That's not what i said at all Macy. I just pointed out that we were effectively penalised by diverting funds towards taking the licensing seriously when no-one else seemed to. That is faily indisputable.
We were clearly happy to spend money on Licenng, but it did us no good when the process suggested it should have.
It didn't suggest it'd have immediate effect. Think long term...
Clifford
23/11/2006, 10:57 AM
Meeting over, any players at the end of their contracts have just been told they will not be getting new offers, free to go.
Who is out of contract?
Poor Student
23/11/2006, 10:59 AM
What about the payment issues for those still under contract? Jim Crawford is the only out of contract player that comes to my mind.
Clifford
23/11/2006, 11:06 AM
I'd say there is more than one from what I heard. Can't say too much yet.
I don't know what will happen with regard to the players staying on. You know how quickly these things change so you'll forgive my coyness.
Poor Student
23/11/2006, 11:12 AM
According to a post on Shelsweb all these are out of contract: Gary O'Neill, Ollie Cahill, Joey Ndo, Dean Delaney, Steve Williams, Dave Crawley and Jim Crawford.
That would mean losing their player of the season and both their goalkeepers.
Clifford
23/11/2006, 11:18 AM
That's most of the names I had. From one of them. Tough times if it actually is allowed to happen. Seems fairly certain.
WeAreRovers
23/11/2006, 11:24 AM
I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore but while the dogs on the street are discussing this, over on Shelsweb they're talking about next year's Champions League campaign and the fab poster you can get of the squad. Do they employ someone to move the deckchairs around as well? :rolleyes:
KOH
chippie0001
23/11/2006, 11:27 AM
Have to say there are too many damn rumours. Now I know from a player that the meeting was this morning but have not heard what came out of it and won't until this evening. Does anyone have anything concrete one way of the other. Losing those 7/8 players is a blow to start with if true. And I thought when Fenlon turned us down that he next plan was to tie all that up in 1/2 weeks.
I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore but while the dogs on the street are discussing this, over on Shelsweb they're talking about next year's Champions League campaign and the fab poster you can get of the squad. Do they employ someone to move the deckchairs around as well?
KOH
You shouldn't be surprised ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
BohsPartisan
23/11/2006, 11:39 AM
My guess as to what the plan will be - let the out of contract players go. Try and get a transfer fee off us for Crowe and AN Other to go towards paying the wages over the closed season.
Clifford
23/11/2006, 11:48 AM
Have to say there are too many damn rumours. Now I know from a player that the meeting was this morning but have not heard what came out of it and won't until this evening. Does anyone have anything concrete one way of the other. Losing those 7/8 players is a blow to start with if true. And I thought when Fenlon turned us down that he next plan was to tie all that up in 1/2 weeks.
What I posted above is concrete, but I don't want to look an eejit if things take another turn during the day or week, which seems to happen a lot in EL circles, hence my reluctance to go over the top with it.
OneRedArmy
23/11/2006, 12:06 PM
I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore but while the dogs on the street are discussing this, over on Shelsweb they're talking about next year's Champions League campaign and the fab poster you can get of the squad. Do they employ someone to move the deckchairs around as well? :rolleyes:
KOHIt reminds me of North Korea on Shelsweb. They only see what the Minister of Propaganda and Misinformation want them to see.
Even Stuart Byrne's rant smacked of brainwashing.
I'm off to organise a food parcel.
dcfcsteve
23/11/2006, 12:10 PM
It didn't suggest it'd have immediate effect. Think long term...
Yes it did ! Criteria were highlighted that needed to be met. If you met those criteria you got a License, which apparently was required to play in the appropriate division that season. More explicitly, you needed a license to be our reps in Europe.
When the vast majority of clubs struggled to meet the criteria, we had a typical FAI fudge of changing the rules to suit the teams, not vice-versa. If it was a long term process and wasn't to have immediate effect, then why did the FAI feel the need to issue everyone with a license that season...?
TonyD
23/11/2006, 12:35 PM
If the reports are accurate and all those players are being released it's hard to see Fenlon staying around. Looks like this title win may turn out to be a very expensive one for Shels. Eamonn Collins for manager :p
BohsPartisan
23/11/2006, 12:49 PM
It reminds me of North Korea on Shelsweb
Lets just hope they don't go nuclear. :eek:
stickyjoe
23/11/2006, 12:55 PM
According to a post on Shelsweb all these are out of contract: Gary O'Neill, Ollie Cahill, Joey Ndo, Dean Delaney, Steve Williams, Dave Crawley and Jim Crawford.
That would mean losing their player of the season and both their goalkeepers.
Its not that devasting for shels losing most of them. The 2 keepers are rubbish, crawford and crawley have hardly kicked a ball this season. O`Neill and Cahill would be big losses and I think most people in the league and even shels fans accepted Ndo was leaving as his wage demands are massive from what I hear
What is of more relevance is what happens to the rest of the squad
pineapple stu
23/11/2006, 1:01 PM
Still, that's three quality players (O'Neill, Ndo and Cahill) and both keepers (however good or otherwise they were, they'll struggle to get a keeper to replace him). That's going on half a team.
I assume also these releases are subject to the fact that there's little or no money available to replace the players, and so they won't be replaced? Squad would lose a fair bit of strength in depth then as well.
(Obviously, all this is assuming it's true)
chippie0001
23/11/2006, 1:10 PM
What I posted above is concrete, but I don't want to look an eejit if things take another turn during the day or week, which seems to happen a lot in EL circles, hence my reluctance to go over the top with it.
But a crisis meeting tells us nothing as such. The out of contract players can sign for whoever they want now, they don't need a meeting to clarify that. Ala Fenn signing for Bohs. A crisis would be if in contract players were walking as such but if I was Ollie I would not resign many or any of the out of contract players for as long as possible.
Clifford
23/11/2006, 1:25 PM
That's exactly what I said,no rocket science involved, the meeting clarified that players out of contract who were negotiating all along are now not going to be offered nowt so can look elsewhere apparently. That's all.
Raheny Red
23/11/2006, 4:46 PM
I assume also these releases are subject to the fact that there's little or no money available to replace the players, and so they won't be replaced? Squad would lose a fair bit of strength in depth then as well.
(Obviously, all this is assuming it's true)
Three good lads who were on-loan this season will be back hopefully. A lot of Shels fans looking forward to seeing Chambers and Tyrell back :cool:
The Sheliban
23/11/2006, 5:52 PM
Last year we released the same amount of out of contract players and nobody batted an eyelid.
Even if all those mentioned left, we'd still have a team capable of winning the League.
Looks as though all the confident talk of a mass exodus from Shels was, yet again, hot air.
Looks as though all the confident talk of a mass exodus from Shels was, yet again, hot air.
Ehh hello? 2 of your best players have not been offered new contracts and some others. The other players still have the option to leave for free as does Fenlon.
More like the beginning of the mass exiodus....
kdjac
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