Another off season exodus awaits

[Philly]

Taken from eleven-a-side.com

Birmingham, Bradford eye up College stars

November 21, 2006

Coca-Cola Football League sides Birmingham City and Bradford City have taken UCD stars Patrick Kavanagh and Gary Dicker respectively.

Kavanagh has been a real success at College after joining from Leinster Senior League side Wayside Celtic at the start of the season.

Dicker, meanwhile, has long been touted as a potential target for cross-channel clubs, given his recognition at Republic of Ireland under-21 level.

Reportedly a target for Charlton Athletic last year, the 21-year-old has made the trip to Valley Parade for a week-long trial.
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I know technically this ought to be a UCD topic, but I think this illustrates a pronlem that is important to our league, not just UCD. I think it is frustrating to see young stars constantly leave the eL. O'Donovan looks like he will be on the way out too. Ward might be off as well. I honestly think that clubs should do more to keep players at Irish clubs. You won't see Bohs, Shels, Cork or any other club trying to offer these guys decent money and a contract. Irish clubs have a defeatest attitude. They think that when a British or Scottish club comes knocking on the door then it's time to say goodbye to that player. Drogheda are the only club that seem to put up a fight to keep their players. Matters aren't help when you read comments from managers saying "he is good enough to be playing accross the water". That further instills the attitude that only bad players play here, while good ones stay.

[monzo]

Shels also rejected a bid from that Swedish side.

Is Kavanagh a UCD regular? I hadn't heard of him until now...

[Student Mullet]

Is Kavanagh a UCD regular? I hadn't heard of him until now...No, we signed him from Wayside half way through the season. He's played seven, about half as a sub, and scored four (I think).

I don't think that selling our top players to England is the main problem. The bigger problem is that too many teenagers go over there when they're young. The league would be much better if the top young players were here and only the top few went abroad. I think selling players like these to big foreign clubs will show the younger players that there's a carrer path for them here.

[Philly]

The League (with the exception of a few clubs) can't develop top players as they don't have the resources to do so. And even if most clubs were given a million today, many wouldn't invest it in development.

It's important, I think, that the league does it's best to hold on to the few players that the general public feel are worth to pay in to see.

As for Kavanagh. Shane Long wasn't a regular either and he ain't too bad.

[Philly]

I think selling players like these to big foreign clubs will show the younger players that there's a carrer path for them here.

No. It sends out a message that any player that is good will play in England. Therefore when youngsters are offered a dodgy one year trainee contract at a Championship club they will grab it wholeheartedly. It is only when the eircom League has a decent product that young soccer players will want to be a part of it. Selling our best players to half decent English clubs doen't say anything for the league IMO.

[Poor Student]

There's nothing UCD can do about Kavanagh. I dunno how Birmingham were alerted to him. He was signed by UCD on amateur terms. He took a holiday shortly after signing for UCD! He only tied down a first team place at the very end of the season. I'm a little stunned about this one. I think he was released by Bohs a few years ago.

As for Dicker, there's simply no way UCD could retain him. Why wouldn't he go? He could do far better for himself in financial terms sitting on their bench than he could playing regularly at UCD. I expect him to do well and hope he steps up further. Even other higher ranked leagues like the Scandinavian ones see players leaving at 20-23 even though they're better at retaining their underage talent until they hit maturity. Sure look at Scotland, if a great young player isn't snapped by the Old Firm they'll inevitably be off to England.

[dcfcsteve]

No. It sends out a message that any player that is good will play in England. Therefore when youngsters are offered a dodgy one year trainee contract at a Championship club they will grab it wholeheartedly. It is only when the eircom League has a decent product that young soccer players will want to be a part of it. Selling our best players to half decent English clubs doen't say anything for the league IMO.


I'm with Student Mullett on this.

We have to be realists - the English system is the preferred destination for most young aspiring footballers in Ireland. Hopefully some day that will change, but that's the way it is now. We just can't compete with what is on offer over there - we can't even keep Stephen Kenny away from a sh!te club in Scotland ffs, let alone youngsters from half-decent Championship teams.

Things have improved on the past in that players are no longer going to England in nappies, getting disillusioned, and then returning to become postmen, plumbers or PE Teachers rather than waste their time on the EL. Firstly - our league is getting more of a bite at them before they go, which is good on so many levels. Secondly, many of those returning from England now recognise that the EL does offer a viable alternative option to them.

We are light-years away from having young Irish players chose to stay here over the better Championship clubs in England, and we need to accept that. But at least now we get increasing numbers of them for increasingly longer periods both before and afterwards.

[sniffa]

If Kevin Doyle had stayed at Cork City would he have played for Ireland last week? I don't think so.
He probably wouldn't even played in the B international v Scotland.
I have to admit, as much as it hurts, that the grass really does look greener............

[Macy]

This is the way it should work - players stay with league clubs here, and then the top players get picked up to go abroad, with a fee due to the Irish club.

The genuine and real option of staying here, with Academies in this country, would lead to a better standard for the league and income when the best players move on, and a better career for those players that are instead lost to football when they come home at 18 a failure.

The FAI/ Government should be supporting and developing academies to stop the drain of 100's at 16 and keep them in the Irish System. Instead the FAI employ people that actively encourage young players to go.

[pineapple stu]

He's played seven, about half as a sub, and scored four (I think).
Ten games, four goals.

I'd have to agree with Mullet as well, even though it means my club may be losing two of our most promising players, at least one of whom on a free. We've signed both players from junior or non-league football in Ireland and shown that they can make it across the water despite not going to England before now. Other clubs have shown it as well in recent years - Daryl Murphy, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, etc. If the league can come to be seen as a place where careers can be launched rather than ended, then we're going to see a better standard of player play here. For starters, I would hope that we can eliminate Irish players signing for Conference and Third Division teams ahead of eL teams.

Can anyone confirm that we'd ben due compensation for Dicker, who's out of contract but has been with us for three years and is under 23? Have heard that that only applies to inter-league transfers (e.g. UCD to Bohs) and not to foreign transfers (e.g. UCD to Bradford)?

[endabob1]

This is the way it should work - players stay with league clubs here, and then the top players get picked up to go abroad, with a fee due to the Irish club.

The genuine and real option of staying here, with Academies in this country, would lead to a better standard for the league and income when the best players move on, and a better career for those players that are instead lost to football when they come home at 18 a failure.

The FAI/ Government should be supporting and developing academies to stop the drain of 100's at 16 and keep them in the Irish System. Instead the FAI employ people that actively encourage young players to go.

Spot on, the only way for the league to develop is through Academies and the FAI should be the ones leading the way. Most clubs have links with local 3rd level institutions which would help the education process too

[Mr A]

The FAI is looking to get 10 centres of excellence set up around the country and have already said one will be based in the new Finn Park, so maybe that will help.

I think that if players consistently leave this league (hopefully for increasingly decent fees) and do well in the Championship or Premiership then it'll help the image of the league in the eyes of Premiership fans. If George Hamilton was commenting on yet another player who came from the league and did well rather than thinking Doyle is so incredible then the image of the league would improve.

(I'm not saying that's the way it should be by the way before anyone has a go!)

[Macy]

The FAI is looking to get 10 centres of excellence set up around the country and have already said one will be based in the new Finn Park, so maybe that will help.
Be careful of that bs. We were told the same years ago about Flancare being the midland regional centre, and a week later Athlone were told the same too. It hasn't happened in either location, at least 5 years on.... I'll be sceptical that even one will be opened, and even more so that they won't just be helping feed the drain at 16 to the UK.

[Philly]

I amn't arguing that the eL is on a par with the Premiership or Championship. I am simply saying it is frustrating that Irish clubs have a defeatist attitude to players leaving our shores and that has to change. UCD will never be able to hold on to top players as they won't have the finance to do so. However, you won't see Bohs or Shels or Cork trying to sign Dicker or players like him who are being chased by British clubs. They should at least try to sign such players, rather than living off the players that British clubs crap out, basically.

[pineapple stu]

Not sure if Bohs/Shels/Cork/Drogheda could afford to sign Dicker, to be honest.

Well, maybe Bohs could with the money from the ground. And Shels and Drogheda could, because they don't pay transfer fees even when they're ordered to. But you get my point.

I'm speculating here, but Dicker's under 23, with us three years, has about ten Ireland U-21 caps and we don't want him to go particularly (that's not the speculation but...). We got E24,000 for Alan Cawley, who was with us for two years and had no U-21 caps. We got E15,000 for Pat Sullivan, who'd played for us for two years and had no U-21 caps. Dicker has to be worth at least twice that amount, if not more. So we're talking minimum E50,000. How many clubs could afford that? How many clubs have shelled out that much on one transfer in the league's history? Not that many.

[Philly]

Drogheda for Zayed, or was it Grant?

[Sheridan]

Drogheda paid 50 grand for Barrett.

[Philly]

I knew they paid €50000 for somebody!

The moneys there. Clubs have to start seeing keeping players in the league as in investment, not selling them.

[Poor Student]

By and large the money is not there. Drogs and now maybe Bohs are the only clubs who could possibly afford young talent like Dicker where the club must be compensated.

[LukeO]

Drogheda paid 50 grand for Barrett.

And they paid more for Zayed. They paid €10,000 + Mark Leech on loan for Tony Grant. The cheque bounced twice and the fee had to be taken out of the gate receipts from Drogs' Uefa Cup game.

[micls]

Danny murphy has signed for motherwell http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/cgi/49vtres.pl?record=654

[Kingdom]

Danny murphy has signed for motherwell http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/cgi/49vtres.pl?record=654

Why weren't they able to sign him in the Summer? Was it down to murphy or Cork? Will Cork get any money for him?

[dcfcsteve]

I amn't arguing that the eL is on a par with the Premiership or Championship. I am simply saying it is frustrating that Irish clubs have a defeatist attitude to players leaving our shores and that has to change. UCD will never be able to hold on to top players as they won't have the finance to do so. However, you won't see Bohs or Shels or Cork trying to sign Dicker or players like him who are being chased by British clubs. They should at least try to sign such players, rather than living off the players that British clubs crap out, basically.


How can they compete ???

Put yourself in Dicker's shoes in this imaginary situation.

Offer A is to go and play for a mid-table English Championship crowd, with a modern stadium, excellent training facilities, and an average attendance of c. 20,000. If he secures a first team place, he would be on c. £2,000 a week to start with - rising if he proves himself a bigger asset to the team. All going well, a bigger club will come in and sign him. If not, he's still on £2k a week, and probably a well-known hero locally.

Offer B is to go and play for Cork or Bohs. Neither have modern stadiums or good training facilities, and they attract 2-3,000 to their games. If he secures a first team place, he might at best be able to be on £1,000 a week. That is unlikely to rise by much though, as the clubs don't have much money and it would cause rucks in the dressing room. All going well, an English club will come in and sign him. If not, he'd still be on c. £1k a week, although few people locally would have a clue who he is.

Which option would you take ? :eek:

And can't you see that, even if he took Option B - his ultimate goal would be Option A ?

[Macy]

I knew they paid €50000 for somebody!
Depending on who you believe, that also included the transfer fee they owed for Gartland or they were made to pay that on top of the €50k before Barretts transfer went through.