Another Scottish born player declares for us

[cheifo]

IMO you should play for the team you grew up supporting.That would rule out a nomber of Jacks lads but how never.

[lopez]

No I'm well aware of it but just because somebody's grandaddy was Irish and decided to spread his wings and his seed away from the old country it certainly doesn't make their grandchildren Irish. How can someone be Irish when they've never spent any considerable time in the country where they claim they are from? If someone never grew up in Ireland, went to school with other Irish kids, watched Irish television, learned the Irish language and Irish history (etc), had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub then how can they claim to be Irish?

Irish is a nationality not a race. Genetically we're practically identical to a number of other Northern European nationalities.Grandaddy spreading his wings and his seed? Its obvious your cojones haven't dropped yet let alone be able to use them. So this Irish experience? You mean like watching coronation street, supporting English teams, listening to the Spice girls?

Went to school with Irish kids? I didn't but many of us did. Some Catholic schools in Britain are upto 90% Irish. But going to school with English kids only marked out the difference between us more than if I went to a school where everyone was 2G Irish.
Watched Irish television? Well you have to thank RTE for a. puilling the plug on Tara TV and b. like every other civilised country in the world, putting together their own international service like TVE Internacional I watch.
Learned the Irish language (at school)? I learnt it at college thanks but guess what, my dad (Dublin born) doesn't speak a word of it.
Learned Irish history? I've got a degree in it, but I'm sure as it was aqcuired in a British university you'd consider it plastic.
Had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub? My first years of drinking centred around Irish pubs and Irish drinkers.

One thing you conveniently forgot to mention. Growing up in an Irish home with two Irish parents. Why have you chosen to disregard the one area of life that a child spends most of his time at? You talk about Irish pubs (what all Irish people drink or drink out do they) but you don't mention the home? Why not?

If you grew up in a country that actually spoke a different language, I'd say you have a case if it was wrong that anyone should claim to be Irish but didn't speak it. Truth is, I've known people born in Britain and lived there who could speak better Irish than yourself because it was spoken at home by native Irish speakers. Tarzan Irish? Is that the Upper Saxon dialect I speak but with an Oirish accent and a few 'loiks' f*cked into it?

Irish as a nationality is as you are right not a race, but it is an ethnicity. Citizenship is divided between uus sanguinis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis) and jus soli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli). Ireland has only just joined the rest of Europe in having as its version of citizenship, the former (previously it mixed both). Germany has had Jus Sanguinis ever since the second reich, where German nationality is taken by blood regardless of the place of birth.

Anyway, let me see who's word I should take on my right to be Irish. The founding fathers of my country, some of whom were like me born abroad, and the emminent statesmen that drafted the country's laws and constitution...or someone on the internet. :D Who would you choose?

[Lim till i die]

Jaysus, am I the only proper Irish person on here or wha?

By the sounds of things your a Dub which to be fair doesn't really count :p

[Fergie's Son]

By the sounds of things your a Dub which to be fair doesn't really count :p

Hey now.

I'm a Dub and a northside Dub to boot (the only true Dubs are from the northside and I define the northside as follows:

from the liffey as far north as Raheny with a little Baldoyle there.

As far west as the ballymun road and east to the sea).

Everywhere else is crap.

Anyways, I live in the US so am I no longer Irish?

[as_i_say]

you forgot ronan o gara.

[Fergie's Son]

Yeah, get off this website and don't come back. Ireland now officially belongs to people who were born there, still live there, can speak Irish and dance like Michael Flatley.
Oh yeah . . . and who go to Mass every Sunday, play hurling and proper football and worship Pat Kenny and speak like Pat Shortt.

I will take my leave then sir!

I also have most of my own teeth so count me out as well. Does the fact that my spouse is an American also preclude me from ever returning even to visit? I'll wear green pants and say "gee, aren't the Irish cute" just to remind everyone that, according to some, I am now an American.

[micls]

Yeah, get off this website and don't come back. Ireland now officially belongs to people who were born there, still live there, can speak Irish and dance like Michael Flatley.


bout time people realied it too :rolleyes: :D

[Fergie's Son]

Americans? Jaysus . . . . what is the world coming to? Are girls from Killinascully not good enough for ya? This forum has gone to the dogs lately.

No, they are not.

Some American women are top class looking.

Top class!

Would gladly trade in the citizenship for some of them :)

[youngirish]

Anyway, let me see who's word I should take on my right to be Irish. The founding fathers of my country, some of whom were like me born abroad, and the emminent statesmen that drafted the country's laws and constitution...or someone on the internet. :D Who would you choose?
You can think what you want I don't give a fat hairy ball but very few people I know or grew up with would consider you to be Irish if you have not lived in Ireland for a considerable period of your life. Your American, English, Scottish accent or whatever you use won't help either. Unfortunately these are the facts among most of the Irish people I'm familiar with if not the majority on here. If you don't like hearing the truth that's your prob.

The born abroad thing I never mentioned btw so I don't know why that keeps getting thrown in.

[hoops1]

Im not trying to wind anyone up but Im with Young Irish on this.

[youngirish]

I haven't lived in Ireland since I was 17, but I defy anyone to tell me what I am and what I'm not. At the end of the day it's what YOU yourself feel and think that defines you.

Maybe but you have still lived in Ireland and possibly grew up there so I don't see why you would have a problem with my posts. My original posting before Lopez went off on one referred to people who claim to be Irish because a parent or grandparent is Irish but have never lived in Ireland, don't really understand the culture or history etc. A large number of the Jack Charlton players while I cheered them on while playing for the team I would not consider Irish and neither would many other Irish fans.

[lopez]

You can think what you want I don't give a fat hairy ball but very few people I know or grew up with would consider you to be Irish if you have not lived in Ireland for a considerable period of your life. Your American, English, Scottish accent or whatever you use won't help either. Unfortunately these are the facts among most of the Irish people I'm familiar with if not the majority on here. If you don't like hearing the truth that's your prob.

The born abroad thing I never mentioned btw so I don't know why that keeps getting thrown in.I've just explained the truth. I have an Irish passport. PP has an Irish passport. Other 2G on here have Irish passport. AN IRISH PASSPORT!!! It doesn't say anything different from my dad's. It's not like a British one with British citizen for one group; Overseas subject for another. It is the same as the one you're entitled too. :D :D

I think it's you that has the problem you poor dear. We had a referendum a couple of years ago about removing the automatic right of citizenship from Irish birth. The majority voted to get rid of the connection. That is also the TRUTH. Where were you in campaigning against the change? Not enhancing your identity in the local pub, I hope.

You're entitled to think whatever fairy tales you like, just don't put up p*ss poor arguments about Irish history in Irish schools (total boll*x as it's clear that if you studied it in an Irish school, it confirms my own view that it's hopelessly dire), Irish pubs (great place for gaining identity :rolleyes: ) or speaking the Irish language (when a large number of the 'real' Irish - probably yourself included - can barely string together a sentence), and then forget to mention the most important area of life for a child's identity, identical between most 2G Irish born abroad and people in Ireland: A home with two Irish parents. It just makes you look a total tw*t.

As for what you and your f*ckwit mates, who think being born in stables makes you a horse, believe? I wonder how many of them follow English clubs and read English papers? The majority of Irish people in my own experience accept my identity let alone my citizenship. True there are a fair few muppets, but as I always say that's ignorance down to a lack of decent Irish history in Irish schools which - understandable in a way - ignores the great shame having to force more than half its people to leave for most of the last 150 years.

[youngirish]

I don't have a problem, it's a debate. I feel we need to acknowledge the vast Irish diaspora and you don't. We disagree. No problem. I'm just not comfortable with the whole 'I'm-more-Irish-than-you-pal' vibe.
Don't claim to be more Irish than anyone else who is Irish and that as I've stated before can include people that are born abroad but have lived at some stage in Ireland and understand the Irish mentality, culture etc.

To sum this up what annoys me is when I'm abroad (as at present) and in an Irish pub (which in itself is a farce. Pubs in England can claim to be Irish for just serving Guinness for f**k sake so what is an Irish pub?) and I get some drunk with an Ireland jersey on spouting to me in a cockney accent about how bad the British were to us and how the situation up north got to the way it is and how we all still eat just potatoes and live in the fields farming etc. In my experience a large proportion of the Irish dispaora that isn't originally from Ireland (this does not refer to all of them) have no clue what it's like to live in Ireland today. Irish bred (not born) people that I know have an almost unique outlook on life (our humour, family, politics, religious attitudes) that I haven't seen replicated externally in all my travels even amongst the Irish dispaora (look at Irish Americans ffs they have no clue for the most part what modern Irish people/culture is all about, they are still stuck in some romanticised version of f**king 1845).

This is my opinion. I'm sure one day I'll meet a non-Irish born, non-Irish bred person who will be similar to the people I grew up with in North inner city Dublin (kip) but it's yet to happen and it will be a rarity when it does.

[youngirish]

As for what you and your f*ckwit mates, who think being born in stables makes you a horse, believe? I wonder how many of them follow English clubs and read English papers? The majority of Irish people in my own experience accept my identity let alone my citizenship. True there are a fair few muppets, but as I always say that's ignorance down to a lack of decent Irish history in Irish schools which - understandable in a way - ignores the great shame having to force more than half its people to leave for most of the last 150 years.

Why have you this hang up about the English? You are f**king English. If you were really Irish you'd grasp we're over the anti-English thing for the most part. We now look on them as our poorer neighbours who pi*ssed us off in the past but can't hold much of a grudge anymore now their once powerful country is sliding towards the sh*ts.

And I agree our Irish history lessons may have been s**t but we learned them in Ireland in an Irish school. Taught by Irish teachers. So who gives a wa*k?

P.S. Clinton Morrison also has an Irish passport.

[lopez]

...and I get some drunk with an Ireland jersey on spouting to me in a cockney accent about how bad the British were to us and how the situation up north got to the way it is and how we all still eat just potatoes and live in the fields farming etc...One drunk and it's a generalisation. :rolleyes: Suppose I could find an English tourist in Dublin who got the same treatment, but instead of the bit about potatoes and farms in Ireland its pearly suits/cloth caps and warm beer in England.

So are you staying in England? If you have kids don't forget they do a nice line in three lion babygrows. Don't call them Ruari or Saoirse, though. That would really mess them up and they'd hate you for it. :D

[eirebhoy]

lopez, youngirish - you ignored my pm's about swearing and personal abuse so if you want to continue this debate send each other pm's.

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=7880