All Ireland League [Archive]

dcfcsteve

07/11/2006, 8:55 AM

Now would circumstantially be a good time, but in reality it's just too early.

We've only had 2 years of Setanta - it needs more time and growth to bed itself in and prove itself as more than just a passing fad.

More crucially, any breakaway would require funding to make up for the lack of FAI/IFA cash (at least for the initial period when both played awkward). We don't haved the commercial appeal yet to be able to do this without serious behind-the-scenes legwork, which would itself require time and funding.

Also - our clubs are so badly run at the moment that any breakaway would probably be an administrative disaster and collapse under the weight of petty parochial squabbles. Just think what Oily would be like as part of a breakaway body ! :eek:

So unfortunately we're stuck with the FAI for the foeseable future, painful though that is to accept.

endabob1

07/11/2006, 9:01 AM

Setting up a league accross two different associations and two seperate political states is not going to be set up overnight, the IFA are in the middle of their season the EL is coming to an end, when would the new league start?
There are reasoned arguments to make for setting up the league as it would surely result in better standards and have half a dozen BIG sides, ie capable of pulling over 5,000 punters on a regular basis but logistically and politically it would be difficult to set up.
There are also reasoned arguments against it like the possible disolving of talent at a local underage level, the fact that the FAI taking control of the League should help in aligning it to national teams, it should boost the profile and the standars of the league, this would all potentially be lost in an all-ireland league.
Basically the arguments for it are never going to be strong enough to persuade the powers that be that it will benefit their associations more than the current set ups.

Poor Student

07/11/2006, 9:02 AM

A certain club chairman told me at the start of the season that he was asking Glentoran to in his words "take a leap of faith" and join the new league. I think he said Linfield weren't interested. That's the last I heard on the matter.

ifk101

07/11/2006, 9:16 AM

Why do proponents of a All-Ireland league assume that everything will be better with a unification? Isn't more logical to assume that an unification will make things worse than they currently are?

endabob1

07/11/2006, 9:19 AM

Why do proponents of a All-Ireland league assume that everything will be better with a unification? Isn't more logical to assume that an unification will make things worse than they currently are?

I think that there would be both positives and negatives from a unified league but at the moment the negatives far outweigh any potential positives.

Dodge

07/11/2006, 9:22 AM

Why do proponents of a All-Ireland league assume that everything will be better with a unification? Isn't more logical to assume that an unification will make things worse than they currently are?

The idea is that any new product would be far more marketable than anything with the LOI/IL baggage. It'd need a top sponsor and a godd TV contract but IMO an AIL is far more appealing to casual fans than the current set up.

A clean break could also see massive tightening of the rule book etc making things a little easier on the admin side

Thats the theory anyway. pie in the Skiy idea IMO

wws

07/11/2006, 9:33 AM

100% oppossed to any link with the Irish League other than the satisfactory Setanta Cup. More than adequate

absolutely no need to merge with the north league

David

07/11/2006, 9:37 AM

Linfield have been non commital on it and have stated publicly that they have not been involved in talks when it was alleged that we were. If Glentoran did publicly back it, I think it might cause a serious rethink at Windsor Park. The Glens are the only team that bring a decent support to Windsor at the minute so if they jusmped ship we would not be left with much to be honest. The same would work the other way round.

I can't see it happening in the forseeable future as much as I would like to. There are too many people in both governing associations happy with their wee cushy numbers, it would be akin to turkeys voting for Christmas.

ifk101

07/11/2006, 9:40 AM

The idea is that any new product would be far more marketable than anything with the LOI/IL baggage. It'd need a top sponsor and a godd TV contract but IMO an AIL is far more appealing to casual fans than the current set up.

A clean break could also see massive tightening of the rule book etc making things a little easier on the admin side

Thats the theory anyway. pie in the Skiy idea IMO

Neither set of associations, clubs, administrative structures etc can currently get their houses in order - surely an unification will multiply these problems, not least because there will be massive power struggles between the old identities upon unification.

Assuming that sponsorship will increase is forgetting that costs will also increase. An unification will certainly result in costs increases. But can we be sure that incomes will also increase? Is Longford - Dungannon more marketable that Longford - Cork to the "casual fan" or the "casual sponsor/ television company"?

Dodge

07/11/2006, 9:51 AM

Not IMO no, but thats the theory bit...

OneRedArmy

07/11/2006, 10:07 AM

Who said that any of the current administrators on either side of the border would have to be involved?

If you are going to quote UEFA and FIFA chapter and verse as a response, read my post at the top first.

I can accept those who don't the idea in any way shape or form, what I can't accept is those who think it would be good but think now isn't the time or there are too many barriers in place.

If its going to be done, when the FAI dissolve the League there will exist a brief legal limbo where there is no league in the Republic of Ireland. This is the time to do it.

bohs til i die

07/11/2006, 10:14 AM

This is the time to do it.

You seem to be forgetting there would still be a league up North and they are half way through the season.

passerrby

07/11/2006, 10:15 AM

i have spoken to at least two senior club members of the EL who are pushing for this and they feel that genisis is the ideal first step.
a .take away the vote of clubs
b. wittle down thew number of premier clubs.

David

07/11/2006, 10:58 AM

Neither set of associations, clubs, administrative structures etc can currently get their houses in order - surely an unification will multiply these problems, not least because there will be massive power struggles between the old identities upon unification.

Assuming that sponsorship will increase is forgetting that costs will also increase. An unification will certainly result in costs increases. But can we be sure that incomes will also increase? Is Longford - Dungannon more marketable that Longford - Cork to the "casual fan" or the "casual sponsor/ television company"?

Longford Dungannon might not be but Cork Linfield, Bohs Glentoran etc is. Like in both leagues now, as is the case with every league there will be games that do not sound that appealing. However in an AIL there would be significantly more appealing and marketable games than there is in either league at the minute.

Macy

07/11/2006, 11:02 AM

Longford Dungannon might not be but Cork Linfield, Bohs Glentoran etc is. Like in both leagues now, as is the case with every league there will be games that do not sound that appealing. However in an AIL there would be significantly more appealing and marketable games than there is in either league at the minute.
Additionally, if it's a 16 team league on a straight home and away basis, the big games (or big visits in the terms of smaller clubs) have more appeal and the mid/ lower table games don't suffer from to many times against the same teams.

There is no will for this amongst the clubs - the way even those fundamentally opposed to the arrangements meekly agreed to the FAI merger shows that they haven't the balls.

Aaron

07/11/2006, 11:55 AM

David

07/11/2006, 12:53 PM

I cant see it happening for another 8-10 years yet. There is too much going wrong in both associations to try and merge at this time. Add in the fact that there will be a debate on whether the two national teams will merge. Questions like who runs the league, who's invited...etc, personally i dont see it and dont want it to happen

I agree with you in that I don't see it happening for a number of years but to be totally honest I cannot understand the logic of someone not wanting it. Surely it will benefit both leagues.

Aaron

07/11/2006, 2:13 PM

I agree with you in that I don't see it happening for a number of years but to be totally honest I cannot understand the logic of someone not wanting it. Surely it will benefit both leagues.

Being honest David, other than Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown and Cliftonville, i dont see wot the other IL teams wud bring to an All-Ireland League. I think it wud just be an EL with those four added. There isnt much support outside of those four. I think the EL as it is is better than the IL in terms of fanbase, football, stadia but the only thing the IL has equal to the EL is the poor financial state. Also now that the clubs have signed up to the newly run FAI league, there is no chance a breakaway can happen now. Ass in the fact that the IL is starting to get on its feet with the proposed new league being set-up.

BohsPartisan

07/11/2006, 2:18 PM

Poor Student

07/11/2006, 2:23 PM

Also, while a large fanbase is preferable, a well run club can optimise its resources to outdo clubs with larger fanbases like UCD. A well run outfit like Dungannon could do better than one might think. As BP points out, this could be beneficial to all and allow all to grow.

Skunkito

07/11/2006, 2:40 PM

I agree with you in that I don't see it happening for a number of years but to be totally honest I cannot understand the logic of someone not wanting it. Surely it will benefit both leagues.

The plans would face more opposition from the North than south simply because so many get the grey shakes at the mention of anything "all-Ireland"

Papists lurk round every corner don't you know.

David

07/11/2006, 2:53 PM

Being honest David, other than Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown and Cliftonville, i dont see wot the other IL teams wud bring to an All-Ireland League. I think it wud just be an EL with those four added. There isnt much support outside of those four. I think the EL as it is is better than the IL in terms of fanbase, football, stadia but the only thing the IL has equal to the EL is the poor financial state. Also now that the clubs have signed up to the newly run FAI league, there is no chance a breakaway can happen now. Ass in the fact that the IL is starting to get on its feet with the proposed new league being set-up.

Given the size of Northern Ireland surely you would expect ROI to have more clubs capable of entering. Also in Windsor Park and Mourneview I believe that as far as stadia go they are a match for anything in the Eircom. Outside a few clubs the support in the Eircom is not exactly brilliant either. I think you need to get down from that high horse, your implication is that the EL is streets ahead of the IL and that is simply not the case.

marley

07/11/2006, 2:54 PM

The biggest hurdle to an All Ireland League in my opinion is the stadia. Having a safe enviroment were crowd segregation is applied might be an issue with the current stadiums

David

07/11/2006, 2:55 PM

The plans would face more opposition from the North than south simply because so many get the grey shakes at the mention of anything "all-Ireland"

Papists lurk round every corner don't you know.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there and I would say an inaccurate on at that. Up here rugby is a predominantly Protestant sport yet there are no problems whatsoever with the all Ireland format there. Surely the fact that I as a Linfield supporter am favouring this (and I am not alone amongst Linfield supporters) speaks volumes.

David

07/11/2006, 3:02 PM

The biggest hurdle to an All Ireland League in my opinion is the stadia. Having a safe enviroment were crowd segregation is applied might be an issue with the current stadiums

That is a valid point.

ciaraa

07/11/2006, 3:22 PM

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there and I would say an inaccurate on at that. Up here rugby is a predominantly Protestant sport yet there are no problems whatsoever with the all Ireland format there. Surely the fact that I as a Linfield supporter am favouring this (and I am not alone amongst Linfield supporters) speaks volumes.

Yeah but yer average rugger fan would be of a different breed to yer average linfield fan in fairness.

BohsPartisan

07/11/2006, 3:25 PM

Yeah but yer average rugger fan would be of a different breed to yer average linfield fan in fairness.

Thats a pretty inlamatory post.

Aaron

07/11/2006, 3:30 PM

CTID, I think you are being a bit short termist. Initially a lot of teams both north and south would bring "nothing to the league" but lets remember that they ARE THE LEAGUE. This is about giving these clubs and the league space to grow. The total will be greater than the sum of its parts.

Hence the reason i said 8-10 years

Given the size of Northern Ireland surely you would expect ROI to have more clubs capable of entering. Also in Windsor Park and Mourneview I believe that as far as stadia go they are a match for anything in the Eircom. Outside a few clubs the support in the Eircom is not exactly brilliant either. I think you need to get down from that high horse, your implication is that the EL is streets ahead of the IL and that is simply not the case.

It is my opinion that the EL is ahead of the IL in terms on quality of football, grounds and fanbase, whether you agree with that or not, i dont know.

Also, while a large fanbase is preferable, a well run club can optimise its resources to outdo clubs with larger fanbases like UCD. A well run outfit like Dungannon could do better than one might think. As BP points out, this could be beneficial to all and allow all to grow.

Good point.

I never said there wouldnt be an all-ireland league, wot i said is that i didnt want one, i prefer it as it is, the setanta cup, with the two seperate organisations. Just my opinion, not a fact

ciaraa

07/11/2006, 4:00 PM

Thats a pretty inlamatory post.

oops, is it? ok, to counter any potential backlash.. "I read it in a ross o carroll kelly book!!".

David

08/11/2006, 3:34 PM

Yeah but yer average rugger fan would be of a different breed to yer average linfield fan in fairness.

Maybe you should ask some of your fellow Drogheda supporters about "yer average Linfield fan". :rolleyes:

David

08/11/2006, 3:40 PM

It is my opinion that the EL is ahead of the IL in terms on quality of football, grounds and fanbase, whether you agree with that or not, i dont know.

Out of curiousity what stadia is there in the Eircom that is better that either Windsor or Mourneview? Dalymount is about the best I have been to in the Eircom and I would say Windsor is certainly better and arguably so is Mourneview. As for the quality of football, I would say that Linfield have shown that we are a match for the best the Eircom has to offer. There is undoubtedly more strength in depth in the Eircom but again you would expect that when you compare the size of the two countries and I would expect that to be reflected in the make up of any All Ireland League with there being more Eircom League clubs in it. Now on to your fan base argument. Surely it cannot be debated that both Linfield and Glentoran are a match for any club in Ireland in regard to this.

dcfcsteve

09/11/2006, 1:11 AM

Out of curiousity what stadia is there in the Eircom that is better that either Windsor or Mourneview? Dalymount is about the best I have been to in the Eircom and I would say Windsor is certainly better and arguably so is Mourneview. As for the quality of football, I would say that Linfield have shown that we are a match for the best the Eircom has to offer. There is undoubtedly more strength in depth in the Eircom but again you would expect that when you compare the size of the two countries and I would expect that to be reflected in the make up of any All Ireland League with there being more Eircom League clubs in it. Now on to your fan base argument. Surely it cannot be debated that both Linfield and Glentoran are a match for any club in Ireland in regard to this.

On the whole, Southern stadia isn't better than in the north. A number of the north's stadiums are a bit old and decrepit (e.g. Oval, Solitude, Seaview) - but they're still proper-feeling stadia with half-decent capacities. Most of our stadias aren't in the same league - even at big clubs like Cork. Windsor is the best football venue onn the isand, bar none. Even better than Lansdowne on everything bar location and capacity.

On fanbase, Linfield and Glens would certainly be at or near the top of any table of clubs on the island in terms of broad fanbase. They may not get much more than EL clubs at their average game, but they can still pull-in 5-10,000 for a numebr of games across a season, whilst only a small number of EL sides can match that and only really for the odd Cup Final.

Where I disagree with you is in terms of the quality of football. This year's Setanta did not show Linfield to be a match for the EL clubs. Hence, you were confidently beaten in the semis by last year and this year's current 4th-placed team, having also failed to beat last year's EL runners-up in the group stages as well. Moreover, I confidently expect the 2007 Setanta to exhibit an even greater gulf in standarsd (assuming in part that City can sort themelves a half-decent Manager, that is...!).

David

10/11/2006, 8:22 AM

On the whole, Southern stadia isn't better than in the north. A number of the north's stadiums are a bit old and decrepit (e.g. Oval, Solitude, Seaview) - but they're still proper-feeling stadia with half-decent capacities. Most of our stadias aren't in the same league - even at big clubs like Cork. Windsor is the best football venue onn the isand, bar none. Even better than Lansdowne on everything bar location and capacity.

On fanbase, Linfield and Glens would certainly be at or near the top of any table of clubs on the island in terms of broad fanbase. They may not get much more than EL clubs at their average game, but they can still pull-in 5-10,000 for a numebr of games across a season, whilst only a small number of EL sides can match that and only really for the odd Cup Final.

Where I disagree with you is in terms of the quality of football. This year's Setanta did not show Linfield to be a match for the EL clubs. Hence, you were confidently beaten in the semis by last year and this year's current 4th-placed team, having also failed to beat last year's EL runners-up in the group stages as well. Moreover, I confidently expect the 2007 Setanta to exhibit an even greater gulf in standarsd (assuming in part that City can sort themelves a half-decent Manager, that is...!).

Linfield have the best record in the Setanta bar none. One win and one semi final in the two years. Also we were drawn in the same group as the two top teams in your lrague at the minute. Remind me who won the group?

Lux Interior

10/11/2006, 5:05 PM

Out of curiousity what stadia is there in the Eircom that is better that either Windsor or Mourneview? Dalymount is about the best I have been to in the Eircom and I would say Windsor is certainly better and arguably so is Mourneview. As for the quality of football, I would say that Linfield have shown that we are a match for the best the Eircom has to offer. There is undoubtedly more strength in depth in the Eircom but again you would expect that when you compare the size of the two countries and I would expect that to be reflected in the make up of any All Ireland League with there being more Eircom League clubs in it. Now on to your fan base argument. Surely it cannot be debated that both Linfield and Glentoran are a match for any club in Ireland in regard to this.

Not often I agree with you but this is pretty much bang on the money. Also, remember, it wasn't that long ago that the Irish League was a superior footballing league but, IMO, the leap to 16 clubs has diluted the quality, with good players spread all over a ludicrous 16 sides.

There is also a more ingrained culture within Irish League fans of travelling away to fixtures. The three EL sides to visit the Oval in the Setanta Cup so far have been Longford (approx 200 fans), Shelbourne (under 100) and Derry (500 - "best ever season", remember), which, given the 'novelty nature' of the Setanta Cup was, IMO, slightly disappointing. Make no mistake, certain EL chairmen will be rubbing their hands in glee at the potential of the visiting Glens and Blues support (IMO, unrivalled on this island).

The stadium debate is a valid one. Windsor and Mourneview (superb ground for local football) would be - new stadiums in Athlone aside - the best equipped grounds on the island. The Oval is in a decrepid state but the club, looking for a new site, will not spend, nor will they seek funding, given that we are moving.

Agree that there are some formidable barriers before such a league exists but there you may be surprised by the groundswell of support amongst IL fans for this proposal.

OneRedArmy

10/11/2006, 9:17 PM

There is also a more ingrained culture within Irish League fans of travelling away to fixtures.The fact you can throw a stone from one side of the "province" to the next has nothing to do with it.....

Try 3 16 hour plus return trips a season and see how you get on!

Lux Interior

10/11/2006, 9:46 PM

The fact you can throw a stone from one side of the "province" to the next has nothing to do with it.....

Try 3 16 hour plus return trips a season and see how you get on!

I've been to Eircom League games where the travelling distance was also a "stone's throw" and the away following was derisory but here's another few "facts" anyway ....

In our three return games with the clubs I mentioned, we took approx 700, 400 and 400 (restricted tickets at Brandywell) - and the last two attendances co-incided with our most ****** season for 12 years.

Given that suppporters to'd and fro'd equal distances for these games, I'd say that's a fair enough reflection.