Ireland's greatest player poll. [Archive] - Page 2

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geysir

30/10/2006, 4:03 PM

Very nice team Paul, who's your captain? :)

Anto McC

30/10/2006, 4:08 PM

Roy Keane

PaulB

30/10/2006, 4:13 PM

Its a team of captains, but Keane or Giles, given that he does more with less Technical ability than Giles, I'll give it to keane..

PaulB

30/10/2006, 4:49 PM

Keane - Doing the most with the least
Best- Doing the least with the most

hard call.

couldn't have put it better myself..

And what was it they said about Giles, he could do everything Brady could do, but with both feet :D

Superhoops

30/10/2006, 7:33 PM

Don Givens!!! Even ignoring the fact he was rubbish, his handling of the U21's should exclude him
Did you ever see Don Givens play?

Made his Ireland debut in Copenhagen in May 1969 in a 0-1 defeat. He won 56 caps and scored 19 goals, 4 in his first seven games, often playing up front on his own or with Ray Treacy between 1969 and 1975. In October 1974 against Russia in Dalymount Givens scored all three in the 3-0 win. In October 1975 against Turkey at Dalymount, he scored all four in the 4-0 win.

In October 1976 against Turkey away in a 3-3 draw, he was joined up front by a young debutant, Frank Stapleton. They played three games together before renewing his parnership with Treacy for that never to be fogotten 1-0 win against France in March 1977. Givens and Stapleton hooked up again in June 1977 against Bulgaria and played the remaining three games that year and played together regularly up to 1979.

His last start for Ireland was against Wales in Tolka Park in February 1981 and his last cap came in another memorable 3-2 win against France in Lansdowne Road in October 1981, when he came in near the end as a substitute for Stapleton.

He scored for Ireland in three different decades, the sixties (3 in 1969), the seventies (15 in total) and the eighties (1 in 1980).

Yeah, real rubbish!!! :confused: :rolleyes:

tricky_colour

30/10/2006, 9:34 PM

got that free dvd with the sun, normally i would never buy that rag but you know a free football dvd!
watching paul mcgrath on it, awesome, def the best the rep has ever produced
was thinking that paul mcgrath basically did enough in our def to cover 2.3 players, and thats why we went to 2 world cups

about the north, jennings and best

someone is having a laugh if they say Givens is as good as Jennings!

I must say that on the DVD torrent download McGrath looks outstanding, he looks world class on all the clips, the short clip of him defending against Italy in New York is something else. We sure could we do with a player like that right now!!

red metal

31/10/2006, 12:21 AM

Mcgrath by a mile then Brady and Keane!

antrimgreen

31/10/2006, 7:49 AM

Keane & Giles.

cavan_fan

31/10/2006, 8:54 AM

Did you ever see Don Givens play?

Made his Ireland debut in Copenhagen in May 1969 in a 0-1 defeat. He won 56 caps and scored 19 goals, 4 in his first seven games, often playing up front on his own or with Ray Treacy between 1969 and 1975. In October 1974 against Russia in Dalymount Givens scored all three in the 3-0 win. In October 1975 against Turkey at Dalymount, he scored all four in the 4-0 win.

I'm 33 so vaguely remember him playing.

Looking at these stats though, if he scored 7 in 2 matches that means in his remaining 54 matches he scored 12 goals. Don't forget at the team Turkey were a joke team, not much above the standard that some of the minnows are now. (This was before 'there are no easy games in international football').

You have to look at club careers to help compare and the only top class strikers we have had are Stapleton and Aldridge. Quinn and possibly Robbie Keane are a bit behind that. After that we have journeymen like Givens, Cascarino, Treacy etc etc

geysir

31/10/2006, 9:10 AM

couldn't have put it better myself..

And what was it they said about Giles, he could do everything Brady could do, but with both feet :D
Or you could say that Brady could do with one foot what other great players needed 2 for:)

RiffRaff

31/10/2006, 10:24 AM

Bluebeard

31/10/2006, 11:43 AM

Hmm, a few points

1. The FAI Irish Football Greats Selection - are people taking this as a guideline? It's by the FAI, for heaven's sake - arses and elbows look the same to these people half the time.
Some of the stats in it are priceless, like from Mark Lawrenson's thing
Giles reacted immediately, awarding the 19-year-old Deepdale youngster his first cap in the scoreless draw with Poland at Dalymount Park on April 24, 1997. - FAI get things straight as always.
Refers to Givens being third in the list of Top Scorers behind Quinn and Stapleton, which is a bit tough on our inconsistent top scorer of all time. Makes a deal about Paddy Coad being one of the few never to leave the confines of the League of Ireland, yet doesn't think to mention any of the clubs he played with.
I hope that this helps prove the validity of the FAI view that Keane is not one of the greats. Not one of the Keane Fan Club, but he certainly is due a place there, he always burst himself for the national side (2002 World Cup notwithstanding!).
2. Like his counterpart in the senior side, Don Givens' management career should not be let overshadow his playing days when we talk of players. He was as effective a striker in his days as we ever had. Remember that it was ten years from his last goal for the country until Stapleton topped the record in Malta, I think, during a time when we were climbing above other sides. And to generalise sweepingly, when Givens played for us, we were one of the "Easy games in International football", at least away. We fininshed bottom of the group in qualifiers for the European Nations in 1972. I seem to recall reading about losing 6-0 to Austria in Linz in 1970 or thereabouts? Anyway, isn't his son Shay great in goal for us;) .
3. Jennings was a better player for NI than Best, though Best was the better player (I don't remember ever seeing Jennings beating a defender for pace with either club or country). Would pick Jennings ahead of Given or Bonner for an all-Ireland best ever team.
4. Glad to see someone mention John Sheridan - one of a number of players that Charlton didn't fancy during the best part of his career, quite like O'Leary, and a few others.
5. Houghton was not only the essential player for the Charlton system, he was also bloody good, too. His punditry and other antics leave one a little embarrassed, but as a player he was remarkable for both club and adopted country.
6. How can no-one have mentioned Kevin O'Callaghan - I mean to say, he was in Escape To Victory! If Sylvester Stallone hadn't forced him to have his arm broken, it could have been him making the penalty save!
7. Greatest Ever Player ever to play for National team mis-run by FAI: Liam Brady - again the quote about being able to do with one foot what everyone else needed to for. I mean, Platini was the man Juventus got to try to replace him. Underrated at club level, because he wasn't on the telly here every week when he went to Italy
8. Greatest Ever Player ever in the national shirt: Paul McGrath - did more for Ireland than anyone else I ever saw. Played the game properly, even under Charlton - his games against Italy particularly come to mind. And this is my choice without taking into account the fact that he was normally out of position, that he couldn't train, and the other aspects we are hearing about now.

That concludes this morning's broadcast

Stuttgart88

31/10/2006, 12:38 PM

gspain

31/10/2006, 12:38 PM

I'm 33 so vaguely remember him playing.

Looking at these stats though, if he scored 7 in 2 matches that means in his remaining 54 matches he scored 12 goals. Don't forget at the team Turkey were a joke team, not much above the standard that some of the minnows are now. (This was before 'there are no easy games in international football').

You have to look at club careers to help compare and the only top class strikers we have had are Stapleton and Aldridge. Quinn and possibly Robbie Keane are a bit behind that. After that we have journeymen like Givens, Cascarino, Treacy etc etc

In 4 games in Turkey prior to 1991 we failed to win any of them.

In that campaign we were the only country get a point in Turkey - Switzerland and the Soviets lost there. They also drew in Switzerland which we couldn't do.

They also reached a World Cup before we did - 1954 incl a 7-0 win over Soutk Korea and only losing to the eventual winners West Germany.

They had a poor Euro92 losing all qualifiers but weren't whipping boys. they also took a hammering from England in the 80's. They were never on a par with the current minnows.

As for Don Givens well I remember him well and he was a decent striker in a time when we didn't create many goalscoring chances.

DmanDmythDledge

31/10/2006, 12:52 PM

Paul McGrath or Roy Keane.

There was some fella called O'Connor that was a CB in the 50s. He was Irish captain and played for Man Utd and Barcalona. I'm surprised he didn't make the FAI list.

OwlsFan

31/10/2006, 12:57 PM

I'm surprised nobody has considered Kevin Sheedy. A crucial part of the Everton team that won the league and ECWC in 1985. I reckon Everton would have won the Champions Cup in 86 if the English clubs hadn't been banned.

He never really sparkled for us. Solid but not outstanding but I remember the great seasons he had for Everton.

The worst regular player during the Charlton era was Chris Morris. Pace but nothing else (on the football pitch) and like John O'Shea, would invariably give the ball away to the opposition. Could never understand Jack picking him so much.

Superhoops

31/10/2006, 1:00 PM

I think its a bit harsh to describe Givens as a journeyman. He was regularly top scorer for a QPR team that just missed winning the title in the 70's and had some great players. If memory serves me right, he switched to centre half when he wa playing in Switzerland and his last 10 or so caps were either in that position or or coming on as a sub. I'd have him and Aldridge as my front 2.

Givens went to QPR in 1972 from Luton and played until 1978 before moving on to Birmingham. While at QPR he played 242 games and scored 76 goals, forming one of the best front partnerships in the First Divsion at the time with Stan Bowles. He was no journeyman.

I think he only got one cap, his last, when playing for Neuchatel Xamax. Don't ever remember him playing CH for us.

BTW, gspain, surprised you didn't mention Don's greatest claim to fame! Being from Limerick :D

tricky_colour

31/10/2006, 1:58 PM

Paul McGrath or Roy Keane.

There was some fella called O'Connor that was a CB in the 50s. He was Irish captain and played for Man Utd and Barcalona. I'm surprised he didn't make the FAI list.

I don't suppose it this guy mentioned here Tommy O'Connor, it says he was a winger (elsewhere), not the captain either but then it's 1949, anyway it's only likely name I could find with google

Anyway apart from all that it's a web page well worth visiting, a lucky find!!
England 0; Ireland 2.
AND it has some footage of the match!! I don't know if it has been posted before but posting it again won't do any harm!.

http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/IrelandvEngland_1949.htm

(match footage incase you can't find it on the page).
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/irelandvengland1949.WMV
(commentary is by John Motson's father ;) )
Jolly rotten luck England :D

clearskies

31/10/2006, 3:30 PM

roy keane...end of.

Superhoops

31/10/2006, 6:32 PM

roy keane...end of.

Man.Utd. fan, red tinted glasses, methinks!

Superhoops

31/10/2006, 6:38 PM

I don't suppose it this guy mentioned here Tommy O'Connor, it says he was a winger (elsewhere), not the captain either but then it's 1949, anyway it's only likely name I could find with google

Anyway apart from all that it's a web page well worth visiting, a lucky find!!
England 0; Ireland 2.
AND it has some footage of the match!! I don't know if it has been posted before but posting it again won't do any harm!.

http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/IrelandvEngland_1949.htm

(match footage incase you can't find it on the page).
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/irelandvengland1949.WMV
(commentary is by John Motson's father ;) )
Jolly rotten luck England :D

Tommy O'Connor was an old fashioned outside left who played for Shamrock Rovers. Won his four caps in the space of nine weeks between September and November 1949.

Superhoops

31/10/2006, 7:06 PM

Paul McGrath or Roy Keane.

There was some fella called O'Connor that was a CB in the 50s. He was Irish captain and played for Man Utd and Barcalona. I'm surprised he didn't make the FAI list.

I wonder are you thinking of Johnny Carey. He joined Man.Utd. before the war. He was in the army and played was posted to Italy where he played for several Italian clubs as a guest player.

After the war, he resumed at Man.Utd. and captained Ireland in 17 of the 18 internationals played between September 1946 and May 1951. He captained the side twice more in the 1952/53 season.

I dont think any other Man.Utd. player captained Ireland in the 50's.

Irish_Praha

31/10/2006, 8:32 PM

Stuttgart88

01/11/2006, 7:42 AM

I just put Sheedy's name out there as a candidate for the LM berth in our "best ever XI", not as the single greatest player. I think based on club form rather than Irish form, as Owls Fan suggested. Tony Galvin was probably more effective under Jack.

I can't really remember Heighway. Better or worse than Sheedy or Duff?

OwlsFan

01/11/2006, 8:17 AM

Heighway was outstanding for Liverpool but for us he was ok - not unlike Sheedy. Duff at his best would be better than both for us.

Stuttgart88

01/11/2006, 9:40 AM

Duff it is so!

OwlsFan

01/11/2006, 11:04 AM

How many of our Northern brethern would get in to an all-Ireland XI I wonder.

Jennings, Rice, Best, Dougan? The south would have the centre midfield sown up with a choice from Giles, Keane, Brady, Whelan so we're really only talking forwards and backs.

geysir

01/11/2006, 12:33 PM

For outside left, the wing wizard Joey Haverty deserves honorable mention as a quality sub, entertainment value should also be a consideration.

jebus

01/11/2006, 1:10 PM

EalingGreen

01/11/2006, 7:01 PM

My picks would be Brady, Roy Keane, McGrath in that order, if I had to include Northern Ireland players I'd stick Jennings between Keane and McGrath and throw Best in at number five. He may have had the most raw talent but he's an even bigger waste of space then Maradona in my opinion. I'm not including the North though because I never rated it much as a football team, or a country so I have never taken much notice of the place ;)

I can ignore the jibes about "the North" [sic] and it's football team, just as I've ignored certain other posters' opinions such as that Given is better than Jennings; however, your assessment of Best is woefully ignorant.

Yes, of course it's true that we never see the Best of George (sorry for the pun), but that only emphasises what an enormous talent the wee man had.
For your information, by the time he left MU at the age of 27 (after a year of arguing with new manager Tommy Docherty), he had played 466 games for United - that's 12 more than Keane.
He scored 178 goals for MU which, as a winger in teams with supreme goalscorers such as Denis Law, David Herd and Bobby Charlton, is stupendous.
He was voted English Footballer of the Year at the age of 22, though this is sometimes overshadowed by the fact that he was also EUROPEAN Footballer of the Year the same season.
And yes, Roy Keane performed mighty feats in that Champions League semi-final against Juventus. But have you ever seen footage of Best when he destroyed Benfica virtually single-handedly in Lisbon in 1966?
Benfica were unbeaten at home in the European Cup; after having drawn their first ever home game 0-0, they then won 20 consecutive home victories, scoring 86 goals and conceding 18. United humped them 5-1 and Best was the star of the show. Below is just a random "Google" about that match:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20051207/ai_n15900458
He was 19.

Or compare these Biographies of Best and Keane on a MU fans website:
http://www.manutdzone.com/legends/GeorgeBest.htm
http://www.manutdzone.com/playerpages/RoyKeane.htm

Having seen him play a few times, I have huge admiration for Keane as a player. But I've also seen Best play and there is simply no comparison, other perhaps, than if Best was "The Fifth Beetle", then Keane was "The Third Gallagher Brother".

P.S. Your dismissal of Maradona is similarly off the mark (imo). I was at the match in Dublin in 1979 when ROI played Argentina. Liam Brady was in midfield for the Irish and bossed the midfield - as good a player as was on the pitch. Until in the second half, Argentina introduced this tiny little 18 year-old, who proceeded to make everyone else look decidedly ordinary - Brady included. I remember reading that it was only because of his youth and the fact the tournament was in Argentina that prevented Menotti from having played him in the 1978 World Cup at 17.
It can't have been because he wasn't good enough, since according to Google, he had already made his professional debut for Boca Juniors at the age of 15 and was picked for the full international team at 16. It doesn't say who Roy Keane was playing for at that age...

galwayhoop

01/11/2006, 9:59 PM

.............................. by the time he left MU at the age of 27 (after a year of arguing with new manager Tommy Docherty), he had played 466 games for United - that's 12 more than Keane.
He scored 178 goals for MU which, as a winger in teams with supreme goalscorers such as Denis Law, David Herd and Bobby Charlton, is stupendous.
He was voted English Footballer of the Year at the age of 22, though this is sometimes overshadowed by the fact that he was also EUROPEAN Footballer of the Year the same season.
And yes, Roy Keane performed mighty feats in that Champions League semi-final against Juventus. But have you ever seen footage of Best when he destroyed Benfica virtually single-handedly in Lisbon in 1966?
Benfica were unbeaten at home in the European Cup; after having drawn their first ever home game 0-0, they then won 20 consecutive home victories, scoring 86 goals and conceding 18. United humped them 5-1 and Best was the star of the show. Below is just a random "Google" about that match:

...................................

P.S. Your dismissal of Maradona is similarly off the mark (imo). .

if we're talking about an all time best ireland team (regardless if ROI or NI) i think it has to be based on their level of performance or achievements at international level. the above monologue may well prove best's right to get into a man utd all time 11 ahead of keane but he was a total underachiever at international level which keane was not. keane proved his worth both individually and as a leader to international collegues when IMO he led us practically single handed to WC2002 (before deserting us :( ) while best simply never had the same impact at international level that he did at club level

as regards maradona - pure class. but again both at international and club level. napoli winning seria a and argentina WC86 - 2 achievements which would not have happened without the magician. the fact he made brady look ordinary cannot surprise anyone as he would have made anyone look ordinary when in his prime

DmanDmythDledge

01/11/2006, 11:32 PM

I wonder are you thinking of Johnny Carey. He joined Man.Utd. before the war. He was in the army and played was posted to Italy where he played for several Italian clubs as a guest player.

After the war, he resumed at Man.Utd. and captained Ireland in 17 of the 18 internationals played between September 1946 and May 1951. He captained the side twice more in the 1952/53 season.

I dont think any other Man.Utd. player captained Ireland in the 50's.
No, his name was definitely O'Connor. I heard it mentioned on some programme on RT� a few years ago.

My memory is a bit vague about this, but I've feeling that it wasn't Ireland he captained- it could have been Barca, or even Man Utd, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't them. He definitely captained one of the teams for sure.

Superhoops

01/11/2006, 11:39 PM

No, his name was definitely O'Connor. I heard it mentioned on some programme on RT� a few years ago.

My memory is a bit vague about this, but I've feeling that it wasn't Ireland he captained- it could have been Barca, or even Man Utd, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't them. He definitely captained one of the teams for sure.
I am only aware of 2 O'Connors that ever played for Ireland. Tommy O'Connor who was mentioned earlier in this thread and Turlough O'Connor, who played for Bohemians and Fulham. He won 7 caps between 1967 and 1973.

DmanDmythDledge

01/11/2006, 11:43 PM

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_O'Connell_(1887-1959)) must be the fella I was thinking of. Got the date "slightly" off.

Superhoops

02/11/2006, 12:05 AM

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_O'Connell_(1887-1959)) must be the fella I was thinking of. Got the date "slightly" off.
and the name, but glad it is now sorted, though I was going mad!

DmanDmythDledge

02/11/2006, 12:07 AM

and the name
Never noticed it different!

OwlsFan

02/11/2006, 7:56 AM

Keane proved his worth both individually and as a leader to international collegues when IMO he led us practically single handed to WC2002 (before deserting us :( ) while Best simply never had the same impact at international level that he did at club level

I think Given's performances in that campaign were equally as important as Keane's.

galwayhoop

02/11/2006, 9:09 AM

I think Given's performances in that campaign were equally as important as Keane's.

dont agree with you on that one. given has been more instrumental from 02 - 06 than he was previous. keanes performances against dutch, portuguese (espically in lansdowne) and away to cyprus were the main vital components which contributed to our qualification. i honestly don't think that any other player had the same effect on our qualification. the leadership shown was unreal. rember late in the portugal game when we were pure backs to the wall and keane ran the length of the pitch with the ball, stopped, turned and shouted for everyone else to come out - pure class.

Stuttgart88

02/11/2006, 9:30 AM

Whatever about the campaign proper (Alan Kelly was no. 1 for first 3 games at least, and I recall Kelly making a great save at 0-0 at home to Estonia, seconds before Kinsella scored), Given almost single-handedly won us the play off vs. Iran.

The concession of an away goal at Lansdowne would have killed us, as could have an early goal in Tehran. So in that sense Given's role in getting us to Japan was absolutely crucial. He was excellent in both games. Late one-on-ones at Lansdowne and a great double save from Ali Dei (spelling?) in Tehran stick in the memory.

bennocelt

02/11/2006, 5:45 PM

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;566463]I can ignore the jibes about "the North" [sic] and it's football team, just as I've ignored certain other posters' opinions such as that Given is better than Jennings; however, your assessment of Best is woefully ignorant]

wow what can i say, im in shock, i actually agree with ealing Green, a top class reply, what can i say, if you keep posting top quality posts like that i might have to start liking you!

:eek:

CollegeTillIDie

03/11/2006, 6:52 AM

Ok I have no problem with NI players being mentioned in this context. Don't forget for years in the 1970's if you bought a football magazine and international players were featured, our lot were shown as �ire and the boys from up North as Ireland. In that context I think Northern players should be included in this discussion and an All-Ireland Best XI would be an interesting selection.

Best Northern Ireland players in my view;- Pat Jennings, Danny Blanchflower
I don't mention George Best, at international level , because... he only scored 9 goals , which is not even as good as Colin Clarke!
At club level one of the best ever was Georgie.

Best Republic of Ireland players :- Paul McGrath, played better hungover than many players can today sober! Yes he missed the odd match, but never a whole tournament!

Roy Keane, was excellent, when he turned up!
Interestingly enough both players began their career in what is now known as the Eircom League, Mc Grath with Pat's and Roy Keane in the FIRST DIVISION with Cobh Ramblers.