Northern players declaring for the Republic

[tetsujin1979]

Saw this in the feeds folder, and thought it deserved a thread of it's own - even though it will probably degenerate into anarchy.
The IFA are upset with the FAI calling up players born in the North, under FIFA rules they have to be living in the Republic for 2 year, or have a parent of grandparent born in the Republic. Under the Good Friday agreement (or at least my understanding of it) everyone born in the North is eligible for a passport from the Republic - qualifying them to play for the Republic, and the FAI have documentation from FIFA to back this up.
Article here on bbc's website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/6083842.stm

PS - again just noting my loathing of the terms North and Republic, but here it is necessary to distinguish between Ireland and, err, Ireland
Mods if you feel this is in anyway inappropriate then feel free to remove

[Paulie]

Under the Good Friday agreement (or at least my understanding of it) everyone born in the North is eligible for a passport from the Republic - qualifying them to play for the Republic

This is my understanding of it as well. Anybody born on this island is entitled to an Irish passport if they want one. In turn, if you have an Irish passport you can play for the national football team. While some of Northern Ireland's youth players are probably swayed by the FAI to play for us there also appears to be a sizeable number who choose to play for us over Northern Ireland simply because they feel that the North's team does not represent them and ours does. I'd say the most annoying thing for their supporters is that a number of these lads play for them up until maybe U19 or U21 level and then change over to ourselves. While I am glad to take the players I would not be at all happy were this the other way around.

[antrimgreen]

[QUOTE=Paulie;562558] Republic of Ireland passport QUOTE]

No such thing as the above, its an Irish passport, and for anyone who lives on the Island of Ireland are entitled to Irish passport.

However they should declare at an earlier age which team they are going to play for.

[DotTV]

I suppose a lot of them want to keep both options open.

Darren Gibson is on record as saying that he always dreamt of playing for the Republic but when the opportunity came to play for NI he took his chance but when the ROI called he jumped ship.

[shakermaker1982]

If you were born in Derry or Tyrone or Armagh, have an Irish passport then you are entitled to play for Ireland! This might be reversed with the plight of our team at the moment though.....!!!

[holidaysong]

If you were born in Derry or Tyrone or Armagh, have an Irish passport then you are entitled to play for Ireland! This might be reversed with the plight of our team at the moment though.....!!!

And if you were born in Antrim, Down or Fermanagh? :confused:

[Jamjar]

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

[holidaysong]

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

Personally, I'd have no problem playing for Northern Ireland. I'd have to get called up first though!

[Jamjar]

Personally, I'd have no problem playing for Northern Ireland. I'd have to get called up first though!

So death threats to yourself and family wouldn't bother you ?

[holidaysong]

So death threats to yourself and family wouldn't bother you ?

I think the fact that he played for Celtic had a lot to do with it. I don't think a Catholic / Nationalist player today would get the same level of abuse / threats. And just because I'm from Dundalk, it doesn't automatically make me a Catholic or a Nationalist...

[holidaysong]

From BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/6085396.stm) today (co-incidence or what?):

"When I look at Windsor Park now it seems a real fun place with a brilliant atmosphere," Lennon told BBC NI Sport.

"The IFA has worked really hard at taking the sectarianism out completely.

"I still think where Windsor Park is situated it can be an intimidating place for Catholics to go. But the IFA have made huge strides.

"I was back in Belfast in June for the first time in two or three years and I was wary of the sort of reception I would get.

"But I had a great time, it was amazing, and I just felt I had wasted a couple of years in not going back really and seeing people there and how warm they are with me."

---------------------------------------------------------

Lennon himself admits that there has been changes.

[Jamjar]

Lennon himself admits that there has been changes.

Yeh, but he's a thick fúckin' taig from Armagh, so what does he know
:D

[co. down green]

The FAI & technical director Packie Bonner should be looking at expanding its national training programmes and training camps into the main urban centres of Belfast & Derry.

Darron Gibson and Marc Wilson grew up supporting Ireland, so what could be more natural than wanting to play for your national team.

Why do the IFA have a problem with young Belfast or Derry lads playing for Ireland now, when they have been playing for years ?

[holidaysong]

The FAI & technical director Packie Bonner should be looking at expanding its national training programmes and training camps into the main urban centres of Belfast & Derry.

Surely the FAI wouldn't be allowed to set up training camps in IFA jurisdiction?

[co. down green]

I doubt if the IFA would have any say in what goes on within the Brandywell, for example.

[Royal rover]

Good thread, i think since the Lennon situation a number of years back , attitudes have changed within the IFA and the true supporters of th northern irish team, the press made there supporters out to be fascists, although Lennon(pre Celtic) like others , Magilton possibly, were around at a time when they would of had difficulties getting into the Irish squad, but it would make any young lad from "the bog" or West Belfast think twice about playing for the north after what happened to lennon, hence the IFA are rebranding themselves and fair play to them, i think it's a far cry from the Billy Bingham days....

[Merc67]

yeah, they're great aint they.

they have changed the 'national anthem' (which wales and scotland dont play) they have changed the flag to be an inclusive and representative flag and there are no banners around the ground that would be offensive to nationalists or ordinary non unionist folk.

well done to them.

[crc]

yeah, they're great aint they.

they have changed the 'national anthem' (which wales and scotland dont play) they have changed the flag to be an inclusive and representative flag and there are no banners around the ground that would be offensive to nationalists or ordinary non unionist folk.

well done to them.
GSTQ and the flag are still issues that need to be resolved, but if you genuinely do not realise that things have changed for the better, then I think that you have the problem.
Take the fact that sectarian songs are no longer sung at WP (maybe by individual idiots, but not by the crowd).
Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops).

Do you remember November '93? And have you seen any of the recent games? There's simply no comparison.
======

On the issue of northern players declaring for the Republic, I don't think they should be restricted at all, but I can see the IFA's point. They are a small association (unlike the English FA, another place the Republic 'pinches'* from) and they should rightly expect to get the international players from their meagre resources.

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?



[*for want of a better word.]

[shakermaker1982]

And if you were born in Antrim, Down or Fermanagh? :confused:


sorry I just ran out of time to type the other Counties - my boss was lurking! I wasn't excluding the other northern Counties.

[RogerMilla]

I can understand the IFA's frustration at losing players but at the end of the day the peace process is about recognising peoples aspirations and if the young lads aspire to play for the republic then they should be allowed to do so.

[galwayhoop]

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?


because the 26 counties are not in disputed ownership, occupied or under her magesties rule and are therefore unable to hold a british passport even if they wanted one. i.e theres no debate over nationality

the reason these lads declare for the 'republic' is because they do not feel that the NI team represents them and feel more associated with the ROI team and hold an irish passport. as long as these are the reasons for the players declaring for ROI it should not be a problem but if we get to a situation where players are declaring for either just to further their carreer or to 'get a game' then we have a problem.

BTW doesn't just apply to NI & ROI - are you listening Clinton "i've narrowed it down to 3 countries now england, ireland or jamica" Morrison

[CollegeTillIDie]

In Women's footie a few years back financial cutbacks at the IFA meant that
they didn't field an Under 17 National team for a couple of years. The net result of that decision was a "generation" of those age bracket players did not get representative football. A handful of those players declared for the Republic and three of them got capped. One of those three Laura Hislop is a current full Republic Of Ireland international. This decision to declare for the Republic, on the part of those players , was in a way forced by the decision of the IFA not to field teams in this age bracket.
A year later the North played the Republic in a friendly in Drogheda, at Under 17 level, just to avoid a repeat of the previous year's experience.

[CollegeTillIDie]

BTW doesn't just apply to NI & ROI - are you listening Clinton "i've narrowed it down to 3 countries now england, ireland or jamica" Morrison


For the record had I had the talent, I am eligible to play for 4 countries.
Born in Dublin ( Republic of Ireland ) Mother born in Belfast( Northern Ireland) Her Dad born in Cairo ( Egypt) and Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile).
Personally speaking I would have played for the first one that asked me.:p

[Not Brazil]

I understand that the IFA and the FAI are to sit down in the near future to try and thrash this one out.

We are dealing with, rather complicated, FIFA rules on eligibility, not the GFA.

The vast majority of Northern Ireland fans do not care what religion/political background our players come from - if they pull on the emerald green Irish shirt and give 100%, that's good enough.

Our teams at all levels, always have, do and always will contain players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland - I, for one, am very proud of that fact.

I can understand that some "nationalist" kids would rather they play for the Republic Of Ireland - largely on account of their political leanings.

That being the case, I would like to see them make that "declaration" sooner in their careers, rather than later - whatever the rules, it's not right that the IFA are grooming players right up to Under 19 level, for them to then defect to the FAI.

This is an important issue - in recent years the relationship between the IFA and the FAI has been cordial. We've seen the formation of the Setanta Cup etc, which i think most of us would agree has been a very positive development.

It is nobodys interests for those relations to go sour - least of all, I would suggest, those who advocate a "United" Ireland team.

I believe the two Associations will come to an agreement on this matter - let's wait and see.

"Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops)."

What, exactly, is provocative about a Linfield top? They're a Northern Irish Club side - the most "mixed" squad currently in the IL.

Would an EL top be frowned upon at a ROI game?

Why someone would ever want to wear the shirt of a Scottish Club at a Northern Ireland game is beyond me, but people are free to wear what they want.

Is a Celtic shirt (of which so many as to be seen at ROI matches), siomilarly "provocative"?

"I think the fact that he played for Celtic had a lot to do with it. I don't think a Catholic / Nationalist player today would get the same level of abuse / threats."

I think you're right - the plaque of Old Firm rivalry.

Two facts:

1/ Northern Ireland teams contain Catholics/Nationalists at all levels. None of them are "abused".

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.

3/ Neil Lennon publicly recognised the changes that have taken place in recent years only yesterday.

[Stuttgart88]

Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile). I though Valparaiso was in Monkstown :)

[Paulie]

No such thing as the above, its an Irish passport, and for anyone who lives on the Island of Ireland are entitled to Irish passport.



You are of course correct. The post has been amended but the basic point still stands.

[galwayhoop]

For the record had I had the talent, I am eligible to play for 4 countries.
Born in Dublin ( Republic of Ireland ) Mother born in Belfast( Northern Ireland) Her Dad born in Cairo ( Egypt) and Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile).
Personally speaking I would have played for the first one that asked me.:p


thats fair enough but usually even if this is the case a player will keep it to himself and at least feign loyalty to the cause with a classic like - i've dreamed of this day since i was a young lad - that what that white fella playing for trinadad & tobago said!

[Paddy Garcia]

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.


.... quick sign him up :D

[Jamjar]

Two facts:

1/ Northern Ireland teams contain Catholics/Nationalists at all levels. None of them are "abused".

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.

3/ Neil Lennon publicly recognised the changes that have taken place in recent years only yesterday.


So which one of the three points you made is not a fact ?

[lopez]

I understand that the IFA and the FAI are to sit down in the near future to try and thrash this one out.

We are dealing with, rather complicated, FIFA rules on eligibility, not the GFA...What is there to thrash out? Are you one of these blokes who likes to tell people who to support and who they must play for, purely on the grounds of where they were first dropped? Facts are everybody born in Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport (you can forget about the old 'grandfather born before 1922' b*llocks. I know for a fact that was ignored by any Irish embassy long before the GFA finally consigned that to the dustbin). FIFA has no jurisdiction over who the Irish government hand out passports to. If we're going down that road we might care to look at who the 'British' teams are composed of, and how long some of their players, with no ancestral connection to the 'country' they play for, have lived in that particular country.

One can empathise with your dissapointment in footballers making a qualified decision by themselves to play for another country. I think they'd stand a better chance of getting international caps if they stuck to the North anyway. I don't buy the argument about opting out of the youth team either. I can't for one minute think that this makes anything but a minimal difference in the players' experience (if it did we'd be one of the best national sides in Europe) and given that NI has such a bad press with RCs (true, a lot of it exaggerated) then there is always a chance that RC players being brought in at youth level may well want to stay, despite any political leanings.

Personally, footballers should be congratulated for making decsions on political grounds rather than what's best for bumping up the wage packet. That BTW goes for any of those Finn Harps fans who travel to WP for purely 'political reasons', if they were obviously good enough to play international football, and that was there choice.

PS: Much of the predictable gnashing of teeth can be found on here, for anyone who fancies a laugh. :D

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=15485

[Not Brazil]

So which one of the three points you made is not a fact ?

That's a good point, well made.:D

[Not Brazil]

What is there to thrash out? Are you one of these blokes who likes to tell people who to support and who they must play for, purely on the grounds of where they were first dropped?


I would have thought that the two Associations will want to discuss a way forward that negates any ill feeling between the two Associations over this issue.:eek:

I'm sure that will be the outcome of the discussions.

Regarding allegiance/support - my view is that you support whoever you want and play for whoever you want, within FIFA rules.

Anyone who does not feel commited to playing for Northern Ireland is no use to Northern Ireland.

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.

[co. down green]

not brazil

I agree that those deciding to play for Ireland should declare at an early age. The problem in the past has been that players have been unsure as to the rules regarding eligibility and have played for the North because there was no other set up available for them. Gibson and Wilson being two examples.

As the rules have now been clearly defined, its important for the FAI to take over these young players at an early age and an FAI presence within the areas were these players are, would be an important step in allowing these kids to come under the control of the FAI from an early age.

I think young players will make there own decisions as to what is right for them at international level, and whatever the decision, they should be allowed to get on with their careers without insult or intimidation.

The vast majority of football fans from the Nationalist community in the North support the Ireland team in Dublin and the growing number of kids playing for Ireland at under age level is a simple reflection of this. Its important for all however to accept that we live in a pretty unique situation in the North and an acceptance on all sides that freedom of choice to choose who represents you at international level, is a right & should not be highjacked by those with will use the issue for political,sectarian or personal reasons.

[Not Brazil]

Co Down Green.

"I agree that those deciding to play for Ireland should declare at an early age"

There are two Irish teams on this island. The Republic Of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If anything, the Northern team has more claim on the term "Ireland" - but that's maybe for another day.;)

"As the rules have now been clearly defined"

I'm not so sure they have been "clearly defined". There are mixed messages coming from FIFA on this issue. I think the rules need to be clearly defined in an Irish context.

"I think young players will make there own decisions as to what is right for them at international level, and whatever the decision, they should be allowed to get on with their careers without insult or intimidation."

I agree. The sooner the kids make their decision, the better for all concerned.

"Its important for all however to accept that we live in a pretty unique situation in the North and an acceptance on all sides that freedom of choice to choose who represents you at international level, is a right & should not be highjacked by those with will use the issue for political,sectarian or personal reasons."

Again, I agree. Unfortunately one political party has been busy "warning" the IFA about their handling of this situation.

For me, it boils down to simply this - if a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, he should be honest enough to declare that early in his career, and let those who do want to commit to the Northern Ireland shirt get on with it.

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.

[crc]

I can understand the IFA's frustration at losing players but at the end of the day the peace process is about recognising peoples aspirations and if the young lads aspire to play for the republic then they should be allowed to do so.
But the GFA is also about reconcilliation, and by having, effectively, seperate "nationalist" and a "unionist" international teams we are underscoring segregation and sectarianism. Its a difficult line to tow, but I think people in the north should be free to declare for / follow the Republic, but if, at the same time, they despise / shun / turn their backs on N.Ireland because of its perceived unionist bent (which I feel is not as big a phenomenon as people like to think it is) there is little hope of establishing a normal society.


the reason these lads declare for the 'republic' is because they do not feel that the NI team represents them and feel more associated with the ROI team and hold an irish passport
Why so defensive. I don't think that many players would declare anyway. There was an enormous NI Passports thread (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=35477) where people debated the merrits of allowing NI players to play using (southern) Irish passports. If they can use Dublin issued passports to play for NI, why shouldn't others with the same passport be allowed to?
FWIW, I don't think this is a viable solution, and I didn't expect anyone to take it so seriously. The point I'd like to highlight, however, is that there is more than one kind of Irishness. The southern state has successfully sold itself to most Irish people and the world as the only legitimate version, but this simply isn't the truth.


What, exactly, is provocative about a Linfield top? They're a Northern Irish Club side - the most "mixed" squad currently in the IL.Sorry, there's nothing wrong with Linfield or their top, but did you notice the word 'perceived', and the way I put it in inverted commas? That is how some people feel. Hopefully the actual point of the post wasn't lost on you - that NI supporters are really showing their support for the NI team rather than try to send any other sort of political message by wearing club tops.

[crc]

Regarding allegiance/support - my view is that you support whoever you want and play for whoever you want, within FIFA rules.

Anyone who does not feel commited to playing for Northern Ireland is no use to Northern Ireland.

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.
I actually don't think the issue is as black and white as you suggest. If a young Derry lad choses ultimately to play for the Republic, it doesn't mean that he hates Northern Ireland and that if he had have been selected he wouldn't have been committed to the side. National allegiange is a mosaic and it is not true that if you love one (the RoI of NI) that you automatically hate the other.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It's a difficult square to circle.

I've explained as best I could over on their board that I don't think I, as a southerner, nor the FAI have any business or right telling a northerner that he can't play for the FAI team because he's from NI. Notwithstanding the FIFA rules are somewhat tighter than just obtaining an Irish passport.

I think it's regretable and unfortunate that lads jump ship so far down the line but they don't appear to be breaking any rule.

Many of them (the NI supporters) believe that the FAI is actively recruiting among their ranks and more specifically in their footballing jurisdiction which I said I doubt is the case and I wouldn't support any move by the FAI to do that.

BUT I don't think we (sorry broad we ...the FAI) should be obliged to turn away anyone who approaches them and who qualifies -just to avoid stepping on toes.

I'm not sure where the middle ground is on this. I thought maybe a deal between the two FA's -extra to any FIFA requirement -that the kid decide after he becomes inelligable for the under 18's or something BUT that creates other difficulties and inequities.

[EalingGreen]

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

Are you saying that all those players from a Catholic/Nationalist background who've chosen to play for NI since the Lennon affair are "not in their right minds"? Plus all the Coaches, administrators, managers, IFA employees etc who've also become involved? Oh and the supporters who are beginning to come back, as well. Bugger me, even Lennon himself must be a wee bit "touched", seeing as he came out just the other day to say that the atmosphere around playing for NI has changed out of all recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/6085396.stm

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2531/uefa-awards-nibfa/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2526/new-level-one-course-kicks-off-in-newtownhamilton/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2521/1st-annual-sharing-the-game-tournament-success/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/football-for-all/

Anyhow, it's nearly November - shouldn't you be preparing for another (5 year) spot of hibernation?

[Not Brazil]

Hopefully the actual point of the post wasn't lost on you - that NI supporters are really showing their support for the NI team rather than try to send any other sort of political message by wearing club tops.

Yes - fans groups have been involved in various initiatives to generate a "Sea Of Green". They have been very successful.

I would have no problem with any fan wearing the colours of any Irish League Club either.

[Jamjar]

Are you saying that all those players from a Catholic/Nationalist background who've chosen to play for NI since the Lennon affair are "not in their right minds"? Plus all the Coaches, administrators, managers, IFA employees etc who've also become involved? Oh and the supporters who are beginning to come back, as well. Bugger me, even Lennon himself must be a wee bit "touched", seeing as he came out just the other day to say that the atmosphere around playing for NI has changed out of all recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/6085396.stm

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2531/uefa-awards-nibfa/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2526/new-level-one-course-kicks-off-in-newtownhamilton/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2521/1st-annual-sharing-the-game-tournament-success/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/football-for-all/

Anyhow, it's nearly November - shouldn't you be preparing for another (5 year) spot of hibernation?

I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.

[Not Brazil]

I actually don't think the issue is as black and white as you suggest. If a young Derry lad choses ultimately to play for the Republic, it doesn't mean that he hates Northern Ireland and that if he had have been selected he wouldn't have been committed to the side. National allegiange is a mosaic and it is not true that if you love one (the RoI of NI) that you automatically hate the other.

I'm not suggesting any hatred of Northern Ireland. If the kid has a preference for the ROI, he should declare it early and leave Northern Ireland to select players who are totally commited to furthering their future international careers with Northern Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.

So what?

He has retired from international football, and that decision has been accepted and respected by the IFA.

Time to move on from yesteryear.. Neil Lennon obviously has.

[youngirish]

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.
This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.

I agree that for the IFA though the situation seems a bit unfair. Perhaps the FAI should be forced to compensate the IFA for those players that jump ship but maybe only when they get a full senior cap as this is arguably when they start to payback the money that has been invested in their development. If alternatively the FAI had to compensate for the player as soon as he wanted to come over to the ROI setup this could lead to a situation whereby the FAI refuses to give the player the opportunity to be part of the underage squads because of financial implications rather than for pure footballing reasons (which is the important thing at the end of the day).

[EalingGreen]

It's a difficult square to circle.

I've explained as best I could over on their board that I don't think I, as a southerner, nor the FAI have any business or right telling a northerner that he can't play for the FAI team because he's from NI. Notwithstanding the FIFA rules are somewhat tighter than just obtaining an Irish passport.

I think it's regretable and unfortunate that lads jump ship so far down the line but they don't appear to be breaking any rule.

Many of them (the NI supporters) believe that the FAI is actively recruiting among their ranks and more specifically in their footballing jurisdiction which I said I doubt is the case and I wouldn't support any move by the FAI to do that.

BUT I don't think we (sorry broad we ...the FAI) should be obliged to turn away anyone who approaches them and who qualifies -just to avoid stepping on toes.

I'm not sure where the middle ground is on this. I thought maybe a deal between the two FA's -extra to any FIFA requirement -that the kid decide after he becomes inelligable for the under 18's or something BUT that creates other difficulties and inequities.

I agree entirely with the sentiments behind your post (also those of CRC, whose posts on the topic seem eminently reasonable to me).

It is not simply a case of "They're Irish, so they can play for 'Ireland' [sic] anytime, in any circumstances", any more than it is a case of "They're were born in NI, so they can only play for NI".

There are as many shades of grey in this area as there are shades of green elsewhere! Consequently, this needs to be handled with sensitivity and objectivity.

However, Lionel R raises one aspect which particularly concerns me, that of "tapping up". Up until the 1950's, both the FAI and IFA pursued "turf wars", whereby they each reserved the right to select players from the others jurisdiction. Eventually, a "gentleman's agreement" was reached whereby each would respect each others boundaries. This was, AFAIK, set against the background of a FIFA-brokered agreement over flags, emblems, nomenclature etc. all of which appears to have worked tolerably well for most of the next half century.

Of course, it shouldn't be surprising that this came under pressure following the 30 years of the "Troubles", but it is disturbing for NI fans that at a time when relations seem to be improving in NI generally, and in NI football particularly, that only now there appears to be a trend developing of young NI-born and developed players switching to the ROI.

For me, if a youngster genuinely wishes to represent the ROI, then fair enough - that must be his right. In any case, NI probably won't fully benefit from a player whose heart isn't fully in it, regardless of how talented he may be.

However, I can't help wondering how much of an exercise in "free will" such defections represent.

We have players who formerly seemed happy enough to play for NI on numerous occasions, right through to their late teens, suddenly "remembering" their "ROI heritage". Strange.

Of course, some (Tony Kane, perhaps?), may feel they've been messed around by the IFA, or individuals within the IFA, so they decide to change. But international football isn't like club football, where you can move teams if e.g. you fall out with the Manager. Ninety per cent + of other international footballers don't have the luxury of switching in such circumstances.

Aside from such cases, some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will?

And more disturbing, in a sense, is the possibility that the FAI may be approaching certain NI youngsters, rather than waiting to be approached. Of course, it is extremely difficult ever to prove that this may be happening, since it is in the interests of both parties to keep quiet. However, both Chris Baird and Keiran McKenna (Spurs Reserve from Fermanagh) have indicated that were approached during Kerr's time, but declined the offer.

And it is but a small step from making a phone call, to making promises and offering inducements of one sort or another. Doubtless, this post will create howls of "Prove it" from some quarters, which is fair enough, but I have alluded to the difficulty of finding proof, above.

Above all, I find it curious that this wasn't happening during the two year period when NI scrapped it's U-21 team for financial reasons, not was it happening very often during the period when the political climate round the NI team was horrible and the team was playing ****e. All three have since been put right, yet players are only now beginning to switch in significant numbers. Further, this wasn't happening a few years back when the ROI was at its peak, playing-wise. (There is also an apparent bias amongst youngsters from the Derry area, that doesn't appear to be reflected amongst players from other Nationalist areas, such as West Belfast, or Newry)

And aside from the sense of grievance felt in NI football circles that we are finding young talent and nurturing it, only to see our efforts hi-jacked by a neighbour with whom we thought we had good relations, there is one, even more serious possible consequence.

Invariably, it is only youngsters from a Nationalist/Catholic background who are switching. As I said, if this is entirly from free will, then we should respect that. But if there should be an element of "tapping up" by the FAI, the effect down the road will be to characterise the ROI as the "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland, with NI being the "Protestant/Unionist" team. This must not be allowed to happen. (It also raises the intersting point that if they are only approaching Catholic youths, then the FAI is discriminating against certain other young Irishmen, on sectarian grounds, by not offering them the opportunity to play for "Ireland")

How awfully ironic if, having endured some pretty terrible times over the last few years, football in NI should now face potentially its greatest threat just at the very time when things appear to be looking up on every horizon, both on and off the field.:(

[Not Brazil]

This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.


It is not the "only crtieria", and it would not "discriminate against young Catholic kids" who wish to play for Northern Ireland.

It would make sure that the IFA are not grooming "luke warm" players for the future benefit of the IFA.

What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?:confused: :rolleyes:

[youngirish]

I think it's nonsense to suggest that all young players at 15 or 16 can 100% confirm that they want to commit to one team at the expense of another for the duration of their careers. Surely kids at this age cannot be trusted to make such decisions and it's for this exact reason that FIFA allow all players to switch up until U21 level from any country. NI should be no different in this regard.

[EalingGreen]

I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.

So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?

For your information, Neil Lennon wouldn't get into the present NI team. When Lawrie Sanchez took over, he clearly stated that he was concentrating on his younger players, at the expense of older players*. Two similarly-talented midfielders with more caps than NL, who fell foul of that policy, were Michael Hughes (b. 1973) and Steve Lomas (b.1974). Lennon was born in 1971.

Plus NL has said that his career has benefited by being able to concentrate solely on Celtic.

Plus the fact that NL's place in the team was taken by Damien Johnson (now 28), who I think may be Catholic. And when Johnson is not available, his deputy is Sammy Clingan, a 22 year old from Republican West Belfast. (Presumably neither of these is "in his right mind", by your reckoning)

Of course, if NL should consider resuming playing for NI, he might seek up-to-date advice from Michael McGovern, captain of the NI U-21 team, who is a goalkeeper at, ahem, Glasgow Celtic.


* - Now where have I heard before of a new "Gaffer" declaring that he is going to build for the future? ;)

[Paddy Garcia]

For me, it boils down to simply this - if a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, he should be honest enough to declare that early in his career, and let those who do want to commit to the Northern Ireland shirt get on with it.

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.

Why should they declare ? It would be disappointing if, in this new era, NI were to call for the introduction of some draconian rule which requires kids to declare allegiance if they want to play ball.

The English FA invests lots of money in grass roots football. Guess what kids turn up wearing Scottish, Welsh and Irish shirts & they are allowed to join in!

There are other benefits, which some of the posts are blind to, like how participation in sports contribute to the community - it's not all about grooming the international stars of the future. I'd suggest that building walls, hand-cuffs for young players etc. is not the answer.

Perhaps the IFA should ask itself a different question to one the some of you seem to be tackling:

Instead of "What can these players offer us, and how can we protect our investment"

to

"What can we do to provide better to support young players in our community"

[youngirish]

It is not the "only crtieria", and it would not "discriminate against young Catholic kids" who wish to play for Northern Ireland.

It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid? Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road.



What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?:confused: :rolleyes:


I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same.

[EalingGreen]

This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.

I agree that for the IFA though the situation seems a bit unfair. Perhaps the FAI should be forced to compensate the IFA for those players that jump ship but maybe only when they get a full senior cap as this is arguably when they start to payback the money that has been invested in their development. If alternatively the FAI had to compensate for the player as soon as he wanted to come over to the ROI setup this could lead to a situation whereby the FAI refuses to give the player the opportunity to be part of the underage squads because of financial implications rather than for pure footballing reasons (which is the important thing at the end of the day).

Re your first Para, even if the IFA could distinguish political affiliations amongst young teenagerson Nationalist/Unionist lines, how could they distinguish between those young Nationalists who are presently very happy to play for the full NI team, and those who would prefer to play for the ROI?
In any case, since it is only Nationalist/Catholic kids from NI who are getting selected by the ROI, doesn't this suggest it is the FAI who are discriminating, by not offering the opportunity to represent the ROI to kids in NI from a Prod/Unionist background?

Re. your second Para, the net effect of this would be to make the IFA a "feeder" Association for the FAI. Not only would the IFA find this completely unacceptable (outrageous, in fact), but there is no way FIFA would countenance such a suggestion.
Plus, of course, the FAI would take only the best youngsters from NI, which would mean the rest (or the late developers) who don't make it would be unable to revert once more to NI to further their international career, since it is only possible under FIFA Rules to switch Associations once.

Think again, YoungIrish.