Starting 11 v San Marino

[gwhite]

It's a bit early for this but why the hell not...
1. GK. Kenny (Needs another run out to help his shattered confidence)
2. RB. Finnan (Has to be played at right back, anywhere else is a waste)
3. LB. O'Shea (Deserves to keep his place after Czech game, but keep him away from central midfield)
4. CB. McShane (Again, deserves to keep his place)
5. CB. Dunne (Needs to redeem himself after Cyprus)
6. CM. Carsley (Was great against Czechs, has to start)
7. CM. Kilbane (Only because Steven Reid is injured)
8. RM. A Reid (Played a stormer for Charlton on Saturday, getting back to full fitness)
11. Duff (has to play against San Marino, will always make chances against these teams)
9. FW. Doyle (A good oppurtunity to open international account)
10. FW. Keane (Needs a few goals to help confidence)

We need to put at least 6 past these to sort out the goal difference. If we get stuck and play as we did against the Czechs, we'll hammer them. Can Stan motivate them for this? Time'll tell.... Also 2 back to back wins against San Marino should move us past the North in the FIFA rankings (something else that needs to be sorted out asap)

[DotTV]

Kenny should be given back his passport back!
9 goals in 2 games.
Either Henderson or my granny for keeper.
Carsley has to start though.

[Stuttgart88]

You're right, it is too early!

But Kilbane CM? Again. Despite being crap there. Always (OK, almost always). Please no, not ever again. Not even aganist San Marino.

[cavan_fan]

I may live to regret this but we have an unusual bonus here of having 2 'competitive friendlies'. This will stop players being withdrawn left right and centre and allow us to experiment. I hope (injuries nto withstanding) that this and any friendlies we do have are spent trying out a settled team.

Woudlnt disagree too much with what you have but would play midfield of McGeady, Reid, Carlsey, Duff.

[dr_peepee]

Don't think that's work Cavan Fan. Looks good on paper but Carsely would be woefully exposed in the middle.

McGeady, Duff and Reid wouldn't complement each other well in a 4 4 2. Marbe Carsley +1, with the above 3 and a lone striker would work but if we're playing 4 4 2 I'd sacrafice McGeady from the starting line up.

[Stuttgart88]

McGeady, Duff and Reid wouldn't complement each other well in a 4 4 2. Add to that the fact that the front two would be Doyle & Keane in all likelihood, so that'd be 5 diminutive players in a crucuial section of the pitch.

I really think we've got to take note of our lack of physical presence, especially against the better teams in our group. The Welsh are no slouches on the physical front & Germany, Czech Republic and Slovakia are all giants.

I can't see Reid, Duff & McGeady starting together either in the absence of a lone striker.

I thought Douglas brought some much needed attrition to the table in our last game, so he & Carsley should play (at least until S. Reid recovers and wins his place back, likewise Joey O'Brien). This'd form a solid base on which we can build our attacking play around the more creative players.

Then it's 4 from: Doyle & Robbie, Duff, A. Reid, McGeady and Kilbane (KK as a LM option only). You can dress it up as 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 or whatever. As long as they have the cop on to go out & play & keep their markers guessing.

Also, for too long we've used our bench wrongly in my opinion. Let one set of players give it all for 60 mins, then bring on a McGeady or Kilbane. There's nothing to say that even Duff must actually start. I'd actually be torn about who to start from the above players assuming each is fit & on form, and depending on who we're playing.

[youngirish]

Kenny should be given back his passport back!
9 goals in 2 games.

I agree, he was absolutely shocking in both games. He doesn't have a clue how to marshal the defence and must take major blame for both hammerrings (though he wasn't solely to blame). If Stan had any balls he'd try out Logan who has been extremely impressive for Leicester this season (he got MOTM this weekend). This might send the much needed message to the players that if they are not performing they will be dropped.

On a side note I'd play Carsley and fat Reid in Central Midfield with Duff and either McGeady or Kilbane on the wings (if McGeady is regularly starting for Celtic at the time go for him if not go for Kilbane).

I'd also consider dropping that waster Keane if he's not starting for Spurs if Elliot is fit by then and is playing and scoring (unlikely I know).

I'd also possibly consider starting St Ledger if he's getting his game for Preston and McShane is still sitting on the bench.

[bawn79]

Add to that the fact that the front two would be Doyle & Keane in all likelihood, so that'd be 5 diminutive players in a crucuial section of the pitch.

I really think we've got to take note of our lack of physical presence, especially against the better teams in our group. The Welsh are no slouches on the physical front & Germany, Czech Republic and Slovakia are all giants.

I can't see Reid, Duff & McGeady starting together either in the absence of a lone striker.

I thought Douglas brought some much needed attrition to the table in our last game, so he & Carsley should play (at least until S. Reid recovers and wins his place back, likewise Joey O'Brien). This'd form a solid base on which we can build our attacking play around the more creative players.

Then it's 4 from: Doyle & Robbie, Duff, A. Reid, McGeady and Kilbane (KK as a LM option only). You can dress it up as 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 or whatever. As long as they have the cop on to go out & play & keep their markers guessing.

Also, for too long we've used our bench wrongly in my opinion. Let one set of players give it all for 60 mins, then bring on a McGeady or Kilbane. There's nothing to say that even Duff must actually start. I'd actually be torn about who to start from the above players assuming each is fit & on form, and depending on who we're playing.



Ya I agree we you there
Could go with anyone in goals really, whoever is viewed as Shays long term successor, can't see it being Henderson or Kenny to be honest, maybe Supple or Logan

Back four
Finnan
Dunne
McShane
Harte (will he be fit?)

Then Carsley and Douglas water-carriers and leave the 6 above fightng it out for the 4 spots.
Might give them something to play for.
Maybe Robbie Keane could be "rested" and the captaincy given to dunne and conviently forget to give it back to him.

[cavan_fan]

I thought Douglas brought some much needed attrition to the table in our last game, so he & Carsley should play (at least until S. Reid recovers and wins his place back, likewise Joey O'Brien). This'd form a solid base on which we can build our attacking play around the more creative players.
There's nothing to say that even Duff must actually start. I'd actually be torn about who to start from the above players assuming each is fit & on form, and depending on who we're playing.

Was surprised by the praise Douglas got, dont knwo what he adds to the team. I know we need to pcik the right blend but it would be a pity to 'drop' McGeady for Douglas. Think this is the opportunity to try Reid in that place. My hunch is that if fit, Stan may pick Miller ahead of Douglas.

Also, I know Duff is not showing great flair at the moment but he has created our last 3 goals. Even if all he does is provide crosses into the box, thats worth a place. (Beckham made a career out of it!)

[Stuttgart88]

Was surprised by the praise Douglas got, dont knwo what he adds to the team. I know we need to pcik the right blend but it would be a pity to 'drop' McGeady for Douglas. I agree that Douglas brings little in the way of skill or invention, but he brings mobility and a bit of bite & drive.

I'm really beginning to doubt if Miller has anything to offer us. He's too erratic, too injury prone and quite frequently games just pass him by. A fit Andy Reid is a better player.

I'd like to see more evidence that McGeady can impose himself for Ireland before I'd trust McGeady-Carsley-Reid-Duff as a straight 4 man midfield against the better teams in this group.

Maybe you're right and Carsley & Andy Reid would have the right blend, but 3 of the 4 just look a bit small to me, coupled with the fact that Robbie & Doyle are small by international standards too.

Would we ever win a high ball from either keeper in mdfield? Would we be vulnerable to set pieces etc? Carsley is the only one beyond the defence who can tackle, and so on. This is what dr Peepee was referring to I think, and I'd agree. I think the reason we could compete against the Czechs was because Carsley & Douglas made their presence felt. I think Douglas has to take some of the credit here.

[cavan_fan]

The really annoying thing is that in John O'Shea we have a player who should be perfect for this role. He's big, has previously shown good ball control, getting games at a major club, often in CM. You only have to look at the difference Fletcher makes for Scotland.

The only hope is that he moves to someone like Wigan and is forced to do it week in week out.

[dr_peepee]

Reid won't cover the ground though in a central role, and also his tackles get a bit "Paul Scholes" when he get tired. He has to be carried to an extent. Which is something Carsely can't be expected to do, especially given the fact that Duff and McGeady would be in the mix also.

Stutts is right about our attitude to Subs. No harm having an impact Sub. Something so that the opposition have an eye on the game but also casting one in the direction of the bench in the worry the other guy might be warming up. I sincerely believe that we should repsond to how other teams are dealing with Duff as our principal plan 'B' or at least an alternative.

We seem to opt for the the knee jerk plan 'B' if it's not going right, like "The Big Man" up front or "The Very Fast Man" on the wing as we have now in Alan O'Brien. Teams set out to Nullify the effect of Duff and Keane to a lesser extent over the course of a game. So if they're working hard at keeping Duff under wraps for 55 or 60 minutes throw McGeady into the mix to exploit the extra attention. Maybe in an advanced forward role or on the other flank. You're not gonna see any benifits intoducing McGeady after 80 odd minutes though, especially in a like for like swap.

On the Douglas thing. Sometimes the other team just have to know they're in a game. It's like Arsenal at the minute. NO point in having a team of Super footballers if you can't compete on the Field with Bolton wanderers. You have to suppliment the footballers with a bit of mettle. You'd be surprised what effect a couple of them misplaced Douglas tackles had on the course of the game. Carsley also. Time was though we had a better calibre of 'grafter', that's my only issue with Douglas.

[NeilMcD]

I think people are a little bit harsh on Douglas, He does not have the ability to pick out a pass like Reid does but he was very good versus the Czechs and did not give the ball away half as much as somone like Kilbane would in the centre. His cushioned header to Duff set up the Ireland goal and to be honest he was the fittest player on the pitch for us as he was still running and making tackles in injury time. I was very impressed with his performance to be honest I would have him and Carsley in the centre and 2 out of Reid Duff and Mc Geady on the wings, with Keane and Doyle up front.

[TheBoss]

From the way the team is playing, I would have to say it will be a 3-4-3 or 4-3-3. I think more likely 4-3-3.

GK: Kenny

RB: Carr
LB: Finnan
CB: Dunne
CB: McShane

RM: Duff
CM: Carsley
LM: Kilbane

FW: K Doyle
FW: Keane
FW: McGeady

[Stuttgart88]

I can see Douglas being a bit like Owen Hargreaves. The guy nobody rates until he does exactly what the team has been sorely missing.

I think the point about us having had a better quality of grafter in the past is fair though but he's what we have for now and I'd actually be disappointed if a fit Steven Reid got his place back automatically, just on reputation. Douglas deserves the shirt for now and it's his to lose.

[TheBoss]

Steven Reid is out until Feb or March.

[Stuttgart88]

Sorry, I was referring to our best XI in general, not really for San Marino in November.

[TheBoss]

Sorry, I was referring to our best XI in general, not really for San Marino in November.

OK. I see

[as_i_say]

kilbane should not be let near cm, neither should o'shea. i think killer is valuable member of squad but needs to be dropped to accomodate people who will play better at left wing. that is his position and he should only be played there or LB for us. otherwise he's a disaster.

kilbane played one stormer of a game for us against the french in cm and that was alongside keane. he would be a useful left back and thats it. o'shea is a real problem. he is a center back, thats it. but has he ever played well for us there? this is another guy who is a valuavble squad player but if dunne and mcshane are fit he should not be left near the team, i wouldnt have him at left or right back either.

a friend of mine taped the czech game for me and we paused it just when o shea lost the ball in midfield or gave away the free cant remember which, he just turned to his right and started staring at the crowd, like he was still thinking about the goal. thgis lad really needs to be dropped imo.

as for andy reid, such a gifted player but he is not a winger. he had a great game agaisnt czechs cos we played a 5 man midfield and he was given a free role. if he is to play in cm he needs a grafter beside him.

[RogerMilla]

henderson ahead of kenny every time now imo

[DeNiro]

While it doesn't excuse his performance against Holland, there were reports in one newspaper of Kenny having personal problems around the time of the Cyprus and Czech Rep game. It could explain his performance against Cyprus and the reason why he didn't play in the Czech game. I don't think it was his hamstring that prevented him playing in the last game!

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to Kenny, I think he made 2 excellent saves he didn't get credit for. In the very first minute, following a woefully short back pass from Finnan, he tipped the ball wide with his fingertip in the ensuing 1 on 1, but no corner was given.

Also, seconds after Dunne's equaliser, I also think he tipped a shot onto the bar that again went unnoticed.

For their second goal I'd blame O'Shea more for allowing the cross in but Kenny had to be faulted. If he'd stayed on his line I think they may still have scored though. It was a good cross.

I do agree though that in both his last 2 games his defence looked all at sea & there appeared to be no understanding between him & his defenders. I'd blame Finnan for leaving the ball to him on the 18 yard box in the first half. Finnan is the more experienced and unless Kenny called for it Finnan should have just hoofed it.

I'm looking forward to getting proper look at young Logan at Leicester. Henderson did nothing wrong against Czechs and looked confident. The aura a keeper gives out is important.

[John83]

a friend of mine taped the czech game for me and we paused it just when o shea lost the ball in midfield or gave away the free cant remember which, he just turned to his right and started staring at the crowd, like he was still thinking about the goal.
You know, if you unpause the tape...

[DotTV]

Kenny never seems to have any level of communication with his defence.
This really amazes me as it is the one marker of any good keeper even in junior football.
I can't understand how people would name him.He has had to absolute shockers for Ireland and I'd say he would ****e himself at the prospect on pulling on the Irish jersey again.

[eirebhoy]

I can't understand how people would name him.He has had to absolute shockers for Ireland and I'd say he would ****e himself at the prospect on pulling on the Irish jersey again.
He made a poor mistake against Cyprus but I wouldn't say he's had 2 shockers. He just happened to be in 2 of our worst teams in the last 10 years or so.

[carloz]

well if you are gonna pick players based on the Cyprus performances then Douglas has to start. Ono fo the very few Leeds players who still has his reputation intact after the last few weeks. I dont see how anyone could start Kilbane in CM, especially after Cyprus. Maybe start him on the wing but nowhere near CM. Against San Marino i think a chance can be taken and Reid, Duff and McGeady could all start. Couldnt see this happening against better opposition. Reid played excellent for Charlton at the weekend playing just off of Bent which might be intersting for Ireland in the future

[carloz]

My hunch is that if fit, Stan may pick Miller ahead of Douglas.


Cant see this happening at all. Miller cant get his place in a Sunderland team ravaged by injuries at the moment and anyone who saw Leeds play last year would have to say that Douglas is a better player

[tetsujin1979]

Isn't he still carrying the foot injury that he was sent back to Sunderland with?

[shakermaker1982]

GK Henderson
LB S Kelly
RB Finnan
CB Dunne
CB McShane

LW Duff
RW McGeady
CM Carsley
CM A Reid

FW Doyle
FW Keano.

Douglas very close to a starting line up.

[gwhite]

I can guarantee that Kilbane will start in CM, as useless there as he is. I just don't see Stan dropping him. He should've been dropped by McCarthy at WC 2002 after the Cameroon game and wasn't, he should've been dropped by Kerr midway through the 2006 campaign and wasn't and he should've been dropped by Stan after Cyprus (shocking injury list or not) and wasn't. I wonder what these guys see in him that we don't because I've yet to meet a fan that rates him....

[Stuttgart88]

Kilbane didn't play CM against Czech Rep. though.

[Dotsy]

If Stan has a full sqaud to choose from I wouldn't put it past him to start Andy O' Brien or JOS alongside Dunne at CB:eek:

[galwayhoop]

I can guarantee that Kilbane will start in CM, as useless there as he is. I just don't see Stan dropping him. He should've been dropped by McCarthy at WC 2002 after the Cameroon game and wasn't, he should've been dropped by Kerr midway through the 2006 campaign and wasn't and he should've been dropped by Stan after Cyprus (shocking injury list or not) and wasn't. I wonder what these guys see in him that we don't because I've yet to meet a fan that rates him....

he will start. he has started for how many consectutive games?! in fairness to him he may not be the best (i don't rate him too highly anyhow) but he does give it his all in every game. i suppose that he is an example of the right attitude to the rest and on this he gets the nod over lads who are on better form or supposid better players foor this reason.

[DotTV]

He made a poor mistake against Cyprus but I wouldn't say he's had 2 shockers. He just happened to be in 2 of our worst teams in the last 10 years or so.

True, he had poor players on front of him but it's up to the keeper to try and organise the defense.He didn't come close.
Shay wouldn't have conceded half as many goals IMO

[Stuttgart88]

I've just noticed this quote from Gordon Strachan on etims.net, which backs up pretty much what some were saying earlier in the thread:

I’ve been round the world watching football, studying fitness techniques, but it’s quite simple in the end that it comes down to having a formation that stops you losing goals and then get some good players to win the game for you. It’s not as cosmic as coaches make out

[eirebhoy]

True, he had poor players on front of him but it's up to the keeper to try and organise the defense.He didn't come close.
I would have said it was up to one of the centre halves to organise the defence. The keeper can organise a wall and things at set pieces but I don't see how he can lead the line. I would agree though Given's presence is a huge influence.


Shay wouldn't have conceded half as many goals IMO
I doubt Shay has played in front of an Irish defence as bad as the one that played against Holland or a central midfield as bad at keeping possession as the one in Cyprus (on paper at least). He's one of the best keepers in the world and I wouldn't expect Kenny to come close to him. Kenny's still our 2nd best keeper though imo.

/edit - Just seen Stutts post on Strachan. That is exactly how I felt Strachan thought about the game too. He buys the best players possible for attacking positions but so far hasn't spent much on the Celtic defence. Virgo, Wilson, Naylor, Camara, Telfer and Caldwell are the defenders he has signed. Certainly not on par with the signings of Nakamura, Gravesen, Jarosik, Venegoor, etc. :)

[gwhite]

Kilbane didn't play CM against Czech Rep. though.

It doesn't matter where he plays, he will still give the ball away. Sure, he has a good attitude and is honest but he just gives the ball away too much. I think the fact that he scored against the Czechs will mean he is in for the next few games.

[Stuttgart88]

That is exactly how I felt Strachan thought about the game too. He buys the best players possible for attacking positions but so far hasn't spent much on the Celtic defence. Virgo, Wilson, Naylor, Camara, Telfer and Caldwell are the defenders he has signed. Certainly not on par with the signings of Nakamura, Gravesen, Jarosik, Venegoor, etc. :)

So by applying Strachan's theory to the Irish team, a sound keeper and back four plus maybe Carsley & Douglas to add some bite to midfield, then add the 4 flair players and let them go about their game. But having only Carsley and then 5 diminutive attacking players would violate his principle of having a formation that reduces the opposition's goal threat.

Sterve Claridge had an interesting comment on bbc website today on what made O'Neill a great manager too. Organisation & inspiration, and picking square pegs for square holes. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/6078144.stm

I think Strachan's approach is more applicable to Ireland because a manager can't go out and buy players of particular physical & mental characteristics.

Put it another way, with what we have available I think it's far more feasible to put out a team like Celtic put out against Benfica than a typical O'Neill team.

[Stuttgart88]

It doesn't matter where he plays, he will still give the ball away. Sure, he has a good attitude and is honest but he just gives the ball away too much. I think the fact that he scored against the Czechs will mean he is in for the next few games.True, but I was merely querying your assertion that he's guaranteed to start in CM.

Personally there are games where I'd consider playing KK and games where I wouldn't. In no circumstances as a CM though. Wide left, or inside left in a 4-5-1 or whatever only. My preference would be for a solid midfield two (Carsley and Douglas or Steven Reid when he's back fit, or maybe Joey O'Brien or Garvan can grow into the role in time) with any 4 of Doyle, Robbie, McGeady, Duff and Andy Reid on the offensive. If due to injury or whatever, midfield was Carsley and say Andy Reid, I'd be inclined to go with Kilbane on the left just to avoid us being overrun by tall, athletic & physical teams, which most international teams are these days.

[DotTV]

Eirebhoy,
the keeper should be an extra pair of eyes for the defence.he sees everythin that is going on and if he's a good talker he should tell them where to cover etc.
Obviously he can't lead the line like a centre half but this level of communication is essential.You always see Given talking, it's a mark of a good keeper but unfortunately Kenny doesn't seem to do it at all.He looks like he's on a different wavelength to the entire defence.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree DotTV, but I'd add that it's not just about talking. Like a centre-back pairing for example, sometimes defenders and goalkeepers take time to develop an understanding.

I think it's also important that a goalkeeper has his defenders' trust too. Even if Kenny was relatively blame free for many of the 9 recent goals he conceded (God,that's a lot!!) I think it's a hard situation to recover from. He & O'Brien, and I also think Dunne will need to pick themselves up.

When I was playing in nets I never played well if I felt a defender didn't rate me, whereas I always played my best behind a guy who I had developed a playing relationship with over time & whom I knew trusted me. Likewise, a slightly nervy defender (which let's face it, Dunne & O'Brien both are) will tend to play well in front of a confident keeper. Either way, it's self fulfilling. Doubts lead to hesitation and then mistakes.

In a way, the almost crisis like situation where Henderson, O'Shea & McShane came in afresh worked well because noone was carrying any baggage. It's a pity O'Shea let himself down for the Czech goal as I thought he had played well otherwise.

[eirebhoy]

Eirebhoy,
the keeper should be an extra pair of eyes for the defence.he sees everythin that is going on and if he's a good talker he should tell them where to cover etc.
Obviously he can't lead the line like a centre half but this level of communication is essential.You always see Given talking, it's a mark of a good keeper but unfortunately Kenny doesn't seem to do it at all.He looks like he's on a different wavelength to the entire defence.
I agree with that to a certain extent. Another Celtic example but when David Marshall is in goal Celtic usually concede. Marshall doesn't make many mistakes but the defence always seems more stable with Boruc behind them. Henderson and McShane spent a season at Brighton together though and Henderson was giving him plenty of taps on the back against the Czechs. Henderson should have saved the Czech goal though and I'd have the premiership keeper ahead of him in the ranks behind Given.

[DotTV]

You could give Kenny the nod for that reason but does anyone think that he kind of freezes a bit for Ireland?
I mean he is a relatively good keeper for Sheff Utd but I never remember him being outstanding for Ireland(in the few chances he's had).
Maybe the whole occasion of an international gets to him.

[Traps Cat]

Same team that started against the Czechs thanks very much - even if it is San Marino i still wouldnt f*** around any more with the team. Doyle and Dunne to be introduced later on.

[antrimgreen]

That is exactly my thoughts youwerethereray, i would play the same team same formation as fielded against the czechs, a bit of consistancy i feel would really make the difference. However if Given is available it goes without saying that he should be straight back in. (i am not to sure when shay is due back)

[youngirish]

You could give Kenny the nod for that reason but does anyone think that he kind of freezes a bit for Ireland?
I mean he is a relatively good keeper for Sheff Utd but I never remember him being outstanding for Ireland(in the few chances he's had).
Maybe the whole occasion of an international gets to him.

He's been absolutely shocking for Ireland as has John O'Shea. I personally don't care very much about club form, it should only be used as a guide to introduce someone to the team. If they are not performing for Ireland they should be dropped irrespective of club form.

If Staunton has any clue he'll bring Logan into the squad for San Marino and play him instead of Kenny if he continues to perform like he has done in the Championship this season. Henderson should also not be keeping Supple out of the squad while he's not playing for Brighton and Supple is playing for Ipswich.

[Stuttgart88]

Agree about Logan.

Hasn't it been the other way around recently: Supple on the bench, Henderson starting for Brighton? Supple only came on when Price got injured on Saturday. Henderson has recently won his place back.

[DotTV]

Good points about the goalkeepers Stuttgart.
A good keeper breeds confidence in his defenders. Didn't Dunne score an og at the weekend when the keeper called for the ball and Dunne took a swipe at it.Obviously he didn't trust his keeper enough to allow the ball go through to him.Similar things occured with Kenny.
I'd agree with the previous poster about not changing the team from the Czech game but with around 14 more players coming back on the scene that may not be possible.

[youngirish]

Agree about Logan.

Hasn't it been the other way around recently: Supple on the bench, Henderson starting for Brighton? Supple only came on when Price got injured on Saturday. Henderson has recently won his place back.
Possibly. I know Henderson was out of the Brighton team when we played the Czechs. I reckon Supple will keep his place at Ipswich for a while. By all accounts he put in a good performance once Price went off and Price has had a couple of poor games recently.

[galwayhoop]

a good keeper will not only call for the ball and set up his defensive wall but he will talk the defenders through the game. when to go and when to drop. push up or hold. switch the ball or play it up the line. a good keeper must have a good understanding of the game and be strong enough mentally to marshal his defenders.

it is no co-incidence that keepers get better with age as their understanding and mental toughness gets better. when schmeichel was in his prime his outstanding attributes were not just his shot stopping but his reliability, the trust the defenders had in him and most importantly his presence.

given has all of the above - kenny, henderson or the others do not - yet