Socialism in Ireland [Archive]

paul_oshea

17/10/2006, 3:01 PM

Yeah I think we know what you think Pete

not an awful lot...just read the posts!!!

What about all revolutions then pete, because those people that broke the law, like in ukraine/yugoslavia etc, if everyone at the time, said why aren't they obeying the law etc, none of these would have occured. wake up and open your eyes. These people are dead right, have you for a start even visited these areas? i think i know the answer to that, for a start the "thing" is going to be a bloody eyesore, nevermind the potential damage it could do, to both human life and the environment, it would be interesting if something like that did occur what your opinion would be then, "ah sure its only a few ignorant FF voters from the arse end of nowhere in maigh eo".....just because you work in Software development, doesnt mean you have to follow everything logically....I certainly don't.

pete

17/10/2006, 3:12 PM

What about all revolutions then pete, because those people that broke the law, like in ukraine/yugoslavia etc, if everyone at the time, said why aren't they obeying the law etc, none of these would have occured. wake up and open your eyes.

Its getting tiring having ye compare Ireland with Nigeria, Ukraine & Yugoslavia. I think some people need to take a look at thew world without the Che Guevara t-shirt.

We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.

BohsPartisan

17/10/2006, 6:00 PM

We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.

Its not a democratically run country. The major decisions that affect our lives are taken in the boardrooms of major corporations. The press is owned by these people, the State is bought by these people and the education system is set up to discourage dissent. You can vote every 5 years for Neo Liberal or Diet Neo liberal. Thats no democracy. Parties who don't play the game of the multinationals have to struggle by on limited funds and thus cannot get the exposure that other parties do and if they get anywhere near to getting too big for their boots they are demonised in the press. A lot of this is dramatically illustrated by Rossport.
The Government under the auspices of the corrupt minister Ray Burke hands a valuble state asset to the Shell corporation for a tiny fraction of its value, then changes the laws so that Shell have to give little or nothing back to the taxpayer. The Shell corporation decides to build a pipeline over land through a populated area, ignoring the industry standards. The courts side with them. The Gardaí are used as Shells private boot boys and the protesters are demonised by a lying private media owned by and large by a guy with a vested interest in Shell getting their way. Does this sound democratic to you?
Sounds like a Banana republic to me.

pete

18/10/2006, 9:42 AM

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 10:27 AM

Its still 1 person 1 vote. I am no fan of the current government but i accept the will of the majority. Without multinationals we'd be living in mud huts, 30% unemployment & apying 70% of our income to the state to pay for the 305 unemployed.

This is your refrain anytime anyone questions the status quo. Quite frankly its ill informed drivel. You should go to this on Friday night:
Socialism 2006 Event (http://www.socialistparty.net/images/bans/socialism2006poster.jpg)

pete

18/10/2006, 10:31 AM

You should go to this on Friday night:

Would I be able to avoid the Israel v Palestine drivel?

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 10:32 AM

Thats on Saturday. The Joe Vs. McWilliams debate is Friday night and is drawing a lot of interest.

Lim till i die

18/10/2006, 11:24 AM

Which is what seperates us from the rest. We won't even have a candidate over there. We do not just get involved in campaigns for electoral gain.

Why aren't the "Socialists" involved in more campaigns on working class estates?? I've never in my life had one of your members near my door.

Seem quite happy to leave the working classes to the Shinners but when some ranchers up in Mayo try to impose mob rule the Socialist Party are one of the first aboard the bandwagon :confused:

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 11:31 AM

Why aren't the "Socialists" involved in more campaigns on working class estates?? I've never in my life had one of your members near my door...some ranchers up in Mayo try to impose mob rule the Socialist Party are one of the first aboard the bandwagon :confused:

We've had this conversation before on the Gama thread and I thought we'd come to a resolution on it. Ask the people of Swords and Dublin 15 who is the only party who they see campaigning on working class estates. Its us. As for Limerick, as I explained to you before the branch is relatively new, young and small and if you want to get us doing some work in your area you should join up.

On your other point, isn't democracy in its purest form "mob rule"?

Lim till i die

18/10/2006, 11:42 AM

We've had this conversation before on the Gama thread and I thought we'd come to a resolution on it. Ask the people of Swords and Dublin 15 who is the only party who they see campaigning on working class estates. Its us. As for Limerick, as I explained to you before the branch is relatively new, young and small and if you want to get us doing some work in your area you should join up.

On your other point, isn't democracy in its purest form "mob rule"?

But the Shinners have at least been making a couple of loud noises in Limerick and they're by no means popular

It just seems (to a lot of people I know btw, it's not just me) that the Socialists don't want to get their hands really dirty with a lot of the stuff that goes on in working class areas. Now maybe this is a wrong perception but it's definitely a perception a lot of people I know have and which IMO ye should be trying your best to change with work on the ground in "dis-advantaged" areas rather than standing up for rich farmers as they attempt to subvert the state in their own little backward kingdom in Mayo

As for democracy being at essence "mob rule", I've never claimed to be a fan of democracy in its current form. As Winston Churchill said the greatest advert against democracy is the average voter

rebs23

18/10/2006, 12:01 PM

Its not a democratically run country. .
Yes it is.
Your brand of politics would see the all private property and business revert to public ownership. No motivation to strive for anything and the lowest common denominator rules. The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?
It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".

We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system. People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 12:42 PM

It just seems (to a lot of people I know btw, it's not just me) that the Socialists don't want to get their hands really dirty with a lot of the stuff that goes on in working class areas.

Socialist Party representatives are THE ONLY PARTY'S representatives who have gone to jail getting their hands really dirty representing the people who voted for them. Sinn Féin are great at making loud noises but when it comes to the areas I'm familiar with - Dublin, Louth, Meath - that is all they do.

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 12:49 PM

Yes it is.
No motivation to strive for anything and the lowest common denominator rules.
Sounds like you are describing the current system where the LCD actually does rule.

The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?
No this would be the result of Labourite reformist Social democracy. Under Socialist Democracy the property of the corporations would be siezed so they couldn't take it anywhere.

It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".
You're the one who's bringing it back to this. I fully plan on opening up a thread on the merits of Socialism over Capitalism and have extensive notes from a public debate I took part in. I'll string something together at the weekend - don't say you didn't ask for it.

We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system.
As long as they are already wealthy.

People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.
Who said anything about that? You're as bad as the right wing media making up stuff and attributing it to me. Cop on.

Now lets get back on topic here eh?

rebs23

18/10/2006, 1:20 PM

Sounds like you are describing the current system where the LCD actually does rule.

No this would be the result of Labourite reformist Social democracy. Under Socialist Democracy the property of the corporations would be siezed so they couldn't take it anywhere.

You're the one who's bringing it back to this. I fully plan on opening up a thread on the merits of Socialism over Capitalism and have extensive notes from a public debate I took part in. I'll string something together at the weekend - don't say you didn't ask for it.

As long as they are already wealthy.

Who said anything about that? You're as bad as the right wing media making up stuff and attributing it to me. Cop on.

Now lets get back on topic here eh?

The current system is person one one vote. What would the system be in a socialist workers republic?

How would seizing the property of companies protect our current relative wealth? How would this seizing affect the jobless rate?

I actually am asking for it, so we can get straight to your possible vision of a utopian society.

Complete nonsense. Everyone has the right and the oppurtunity to free speech, freedom of movement and the freedom to trade.

So a socialist society would allow freedom of trade, speech and travel? I didn't attribute anything to you just basing that on every example of a socialist society that has ever existed!

As for copping on well I'll leave that judgement to everybody else reading your musings over the last number of weeks. From workers rights to the corrib gas project you have a view on everything.

Who went off topic first ?

Sometimes it's hard to know where to start when you are responding to someone so completely indoctrinated with an ideology and cannot accept that other views have a valid point.

I look forward to you starting a thread on how you see society functioning and how in a socialist system freedom of expression, freedom of travel and trading rights are adhered to.

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 1:24 PM

Who went off topic first ?

.

You or maybe Pete. My post about the system was linked to the issue and was therefore on topic. All the points you make I've been answering ad nauseum on message boards for the last ten years or so. There was a thread to do with the GAMA controversy on this board where I answered them all but it seems to have been deleted. I've already said I'll start a thread on the issue at the weekend so will you stop dragging this one off topic. (I personally wouldn't mind but if we continue to go off topic either this thread will be binned or it will be split by the mods).

pete

18/10/2006, 2:19 PM

(splitting from Corrib Gas Terminal thread)

jebus

18/10/2006, 2:39 PM

This thread is gonna get messy :p

jebus

18/10/2006, 2:59 PM

My 2 cents anyway, for what it's worth (I'm guessing a load of grief off of BohsPartisan) is that socialism in Ireland is seen as a joke, whether it is in essence or not is debatable, but as a political party when you have the majority of the public sniggering at you you're on to a loser.

Look up www.swp.ie, the webpage of the Socialist Party in Ireland and what do you see? One main topic discussing something thats reletive to Ireland, that being the Shell to Sea campaign. Outside of that you have two pieces dealing with British politics (well balanced debates I'm sure), a piece about America using Shannon Airport to refuel (old topical issue), two pieces about Israel/Palastine, another about Venezula/Bolivia, and some ridiculous statement about not sending any asylum seekers home.

I mean does anyone believe that the majority of the electorate care about Venezula/Bolivia? or about life in Britain after Blair? or even about Palastine? I mean really care, not just have a light interest in? I'd wager that most couldn't give two craps about America using Shannon as a stopover and all. Irish people want to hear more about Irish political standpoints about Irish topics, not about whether Chavez is doing a good job, or whether we should reheat the lost argument that is the Shannon stopover.

As for this no asylum seekers garbage, well I'll just say this. In Ireland we have members of the Hutu Power group that commited genocide in Rwanda 12years ago claiming asylum. People who are wanted back in Rwanda before the war crimes trial officially ends in mid 2009 but who are going through our courts, or just hiding out, hoping they won't have to go home to face justice for the horrors they inflicted. So what this 'No Asylum Seekers Should be Deported' nonsense says to me is that either the SWP are siding with scum like Hutu Power, or they haven't got a notion what they are talking about, I think I'll take the latter one of those two choices.

But again and again we see this with the SWP, all they come across as is a bunch of neo-liberal loudmouths who speak before they'll listen to the facts. Of course whenever someone disagrees with them, instead of trying to argue they'll try to discredit them, or just sum up their arguments into 'you don't know what you're talking about'. Until all this is fixed they'll always be considered a joke if ask me, and not realising this will only prolong their stay as Ireland's 'joke party', a position Fianna Fail should have taken up many years ago

Block G Raptor

18/10/2006, 3:16 PM

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 3:36 PM

Excellent Post Jebus
The SP are a joke party
in many ways like sinn fein they will do quite well in local elections as they are good at grass roots (mickey mouse) issues but no one in their right minds would let them run the country

So you're a mental health expert now are you? You have a real chip on your shoulder towards us. Its an awful pity the other thread was deleted because I answered most of this cr'p at the time and there were no comebacks on it so I presumed you'd nothing else to say on the issue. Why are you asking the same questions and making the same questions again? Have you short attention spans. Plus Jebus why use the SWP website as an example?
http://www.socialistparty.net is better all 'round.
One of my main gripes debating you guys on socialism is that you tend to ignore the main points against your arguements and bring up the same arguements over and over again. Then you give up and months later bring up the same arguements again and force me to repeat myself.
As for people "sniggering" at us? Who? More phanthom folk? We ran a local election candidate in Drogheda for the first time ever in 2004 having only established the branch in 2001 and came within 40 votes of a council seat. People I spoke to were delighted to have an alternative to the mainstream. The only people who "snigger" are arrogant right-wingers who have no real interest in listening to what we say and construct a mythical programme for us behind our backs. I don't care about these people but I find it necessary to explode these myths for the benefit of people who are interested in what we stand for. I was hoping to start a thread myself at the weekend on this subject so I could set the tone of the debate as usually I have to answer 6 different posts at once in these threads and am put on the defensive from the start. With this in mind I am going to ignore the more ludicrous points that have been made* for the time being and post my piece that I was promising at the weekend, then you guys can read what i have said for a change and actually answer my points. Most of the ludicrous points should be dealt with in my post as I am sick to the eye teeth of answering them over the years. The can is opened and the worms are well and truelly scattered.

*Highlighted text should not be quoted and taken as a direct representation of my post.

SligoBrewer

18/10/2006, 3:40 PM

one word= cuba

success?

Dodge

18/10/2006, 3:44 PM

one word= cuba

success?

As successful as most non communist states in the carribean, yeah...

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 3:47 PM

one word= cuba

success?

Be more specific. I have no idea what you are insinuating here.

Poor Student

18/10/2006, 4:00 PM

one word= cuba

success?

It's not my idea of paradise, but Cuba boasts high literacy levels, a good health system and has managed to develop a self sustaining economy in light of the sanctions placed on them.

SligoBrewer

18/10/2006, 4:03 PM

It's not my idea of paradise, but Cuba boasts high literacy levels, a good health system and has managed to develop a self sustaining economy in light of the sanctions placed on them.

yes, cuba is a brilliant success!
socialism if done properly, is better than any other system.

personally this country is getting to become more like a banana republic every week

Block G Raptor

18/10/2006, 4:09 PM

I Agree socialism in its Ideal state is commendable but as we've seen in practically every socialist regime it only works if the people in power are genuine and live by the socialist Ideal. Judging on the general track record of politicians in this country I don't think theres much chance of it working here. Orwells animal farm comes to mind

jebus

18/10/2006, 5:28 PM

BohsPartisan you say that all us non-socialists ever do is say the same arguement over and over again, then leave then come back to it, but I'll counter with this, all you ever do is gloss over points that have been put to you with idotic rants about how us right-wingers (I'm not by the way, but then again why would you bother asking, just keep on assuming, it's the socialist way of doing things) are out to get the 6th most popular (if they are lucky) party in Ireland by making up manifestos for you.

I chose the SWP.net site because I typed in 'Socialism Ireland' into Google and they gave that as their main website for Socialism in Ireland. As I've always trusted Google to ween out the rubbish I clicked on that assuming it was the main website for Socialism in Ireland, something which I still believe. But back to my points, if you'd care to read over them, about the Socialist Party, it's greater concern with the wider world than Ireland and it's policy of 'No Asylum Seekers Out', do you have any comment to make on that? Or are you just going to fling around more of your accusations and skim around the issues yet again, yet another trait of the socialist party it seems

pete

18/10/2006, 5:46 PM

I don't think there are any real examples of socialist states & certainly communism was a massive failure.

Based on all the elections in Ireland we a centralist people shifting from left to right & back again. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

I wouldn't say anyone treated as a joke but its clear the SWP is only treated as a sideshow.

Irish people will say they aint-US & support the Palestians & others but almost no one would let it affect their vote in even a local election as its well down in order or priorities.

Dodge

18/10/2006, 6:31 PM

personally this country is getting to become more like a banana republic every week

examples please

Poor Student

18/10/2006, 8:08 PM

Based on all the elections in Ireland we a centralist people shifting from left to right & back again. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

One of the major reasons that we're a centralist people as you put it is due to Labour declining to contest the 1918 and 1921 elections leading to Irish politics being totally polarised around the Treaty issues.

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 9:19 PM

. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

.

I disagree on many points there. 1. I disagree that there is no desire for a propper left. I find most people receptive to The Socialist Party and sick of the lack of choice in Irish politics. I also disagree that the SWP is the proper left.

BohsPartisan

18/10/2006, 9:23 PM

about the Socialist Party, it's greater concern with the wider world than Ireland a
This is nonsense. We campaign on local, national AND international issues. If you were ever at our national conference, which is usually a three day event you would find that two or three hours is taken up with international issues (we are part of an international organisation after all) and the rest with stuff concerning Ireland.

pete

19/10/2006, 9:46 AM

I find most people receptive to The Socialist Party and sick of the lack of choice in Irish politics.

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?

Dodge

19/10/2006, 10:02 AM

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?

SF and FF claim to be socialists from time to time

pete

19/10/2006, 10:10 AM

SF and FF claim to be socialists from time to time

TBH i don't know what the irish socialist parties are. SF & the Greens claim but I don't believe they are but would be interesting to know the definition of...

BohsPartisan

19/10/2006, 10:34 AM

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?
Yes but due to a lack of resources we only run a small amount of candidates. Our average return per candidate is better than most of the major parties. Clare Daly came within a hundred votes or so of winning a second seat for us the last time around and we're hoping she'll get in. She is widely tipped to win a seat in Dublin North at any rate.
The major parties have massive financial resourses that we simply can't compete with. Look at the PD's. They have no activist base yet they can spend massive amounts of money on elections. In the last local elections in Drogheda despite the fact that we are the most active party in the town, in terms of real activism, we could only run in one ward where the PD's were able to run in all three wards. Despite this our candidate polled more 1st prefs than the three PD candidates put together. We also polled more first prefs than the two FF candidates in our ward and were only over taken when the lesser FF candidate's preferences were redistributed. There were a lot of people very disapointed we didn't get the seat (I was delighted with how well we did and certainly wasn't expecting to come so close as it was ourt first time standing in the town).
Those same polls that tell you that x amount of people vote for FF and FG but are also dissatisfied with the choices they have. Most people in this country don't vote because they agree with government policy but because such and such has a constituency office down the road. Or else they just don't vote.

Poor Student

19/10/2006, 10:41 AM

TBH i don't know what the irish socialist parties are. SF & the Greens claim but I don't believe they are but would be interesting to know the definition of...

The Greens claim to be socialist?

BohsPartisan

19/10/2006, 10:44 AM

The Greens claim to be socialist?

I don't think they do. SF have kind of dropped the tag too AFAIK. Ogra SF still call themselves Socialist but the bit on the masthead of An Phoblacht "for a 32 county Socialist Republic" is gone and they have been cosying up to business leaders of late.

bennocelt

19/10/2006, 2:09 PM

pete

19/10/2006, 5:09 PM

what about the Nice elections then

It was important for this country we voted Yes so gave the people 2nd chance. The 2nd vote proved that this was a wise move :D

sonofstan

19/10/2006, 5:34 PM

I don't think there are any real examples of socialist states & certainly communism was a massive failure.

and capitalism a resounding success? by any sane measure, liberal market capitalism fails to provide adequately for the majority of the world's population and since its engine is inequality - and not just its by- product - it never will.

Partizan

19/10/2006, 8:57 PM

Its absolutley hilarious to see the ******* right-wingers get put in thir place every time by Bohs Partisan. :D

Jebus using the SWP website to argue with Bohs Partisan (a member of the SP) about socialism and the policies of the Socialist Party...:rolleyes:

The SligoBrewer chap's insightfull analytical arguments about the socialist system in Cuba..."one word= cuba success?" Ye got me there buddy.

and the same repetitive tripe from the C*****, same ****e I hear from the local FF/Rosary beed brigade *****.

Lads, ye will have to do better than that.

P.S. is Joe Higgins the only socialist in the Dail?
Yes and also the only effective opposition too. SF were exceedingly quiet in the Bertie fiasco while FG/Lab stuttered and stumbled throughout leaving the FF/PD circus off the hook.

After the next election there will be 3 socialist TD's in Dail Eireann, Joe Higgins and Claire Daly (SP) while John Halligan is tipped to gain a seat for the Workers' Party in Waterford will definitley liven the Dail up and bring much needed stimulation to Irish politics. What this country lacks is an effective opposition. I will stick my neck out right now and predict that Bertie will get into bed with the Provos. The former whose only long term policy is holding onto power at all costs, the latter having by this stage jettisoned any vestiges of republicanism that it previously possesed. But you know what they say about everything turning full circle.

Bring on next June......should be interesting.

Mod Edit: If you cannot debate with trying to insult people, please refrain from posting here.

The Ref

19/10/2006, 10:45 PM

I don't think Claire Daly will win a seat! Don't know many in Malahide/Skerries/Rush/Lusk area who will vote for her. Very good local politican but I can't see her getting on the National stage.

Dr.Nightdub

20/10/2006, 12:17 AM

OK, a few random points.

It's important to highlight the examples of Chavez, Morales, etc in the west as they provide a perfect answer to those who mutter "All politicians are the same" into their pints. Not so. All OUR politicians - or more precisely, all our MAINSTREAM politicians - may be broadly similar but they don't represent the full range of political beliefs.

There's a strong history of people providing an alternative approach to running the world, going back from Chavez through the Sandanistas to Che Guevara to the Spanish Republic to the Russian Revolution to James Connolly to etc etc etc. Unfortunately, as someone pointed out, in this country politics has been led not by differences between ideologies but by how strongly your ancestors felt about the Oath of Allegiance, which pretty much boils down to differing degrees of the same ideology.

Personally I think the onus is on apologists for capitalism to explain why they think it's the best possible alternative when it has given us roughly two hundred years of war, famine, poverty and exploitation, latterly topped off with environmental crisis and accelerating resource shortages. Without getting into a whole "What have the Romans ever done for us?" discussion, I reckon that's a pretty poor return for having had domination over most of the world in that time.

We don't live in a democracy. We live in a partial democracy - as a former boss of mine used to take great delight in pointing out: "Democracy ends at that gate". Most of us spend the majority of our waking time at work but we have no say in how that huge and crucial element of our lives is run.

Even the partial element of political democracy that we do have is far from perfect. We get to vote every five years and we're supposed to feel grateful? And if our elected representatives decide to do something that is repugnant to us or with which we totally disagree, we've to accept the fait accomplit and wait for five years to get our own back?

There's an alternative model of democracy that allows for voters to recall a representative who fails to represent them or who behaves in a way the voters find unacceptable - they get to choose someone better to do the job, there and then and no hanging about for five years. "But that's a recipe for chaos!" wail some and oddly enough, the wailers generally turn out to be the noisiest proponents of what they call "democracy". No - it's a recipe for making sure our representatives actually represent our desires. It's been tried several times in the past and guess what, the people involved tended to be fairly enthusiastic about it.

I don't buy the argument that "socialism failed", simply because what I define as socialism has never actually been tried. I don't believe socialism and capitalism can co-exist, whether peacefully or in a state of armed confrontation. What happened in eastern Europe / China / Cuba is a whole nother thread in itself, but let's just say I'm of the school that said "Neither Washington nor Moscow" - Bohs Partisan and one or two others may recognise the reference - and I don't just mean The Redskins! ;)