Socialism in Ireland

[Marked Man]

"Man creates his own existance only in circumstances not under his control".

and "Necessity is blind until it becomes conscious. Freedom is the consciousness of necessity."

"It is not "history" which uses men as a means of achieving -- as if it were an individual person -- its own ends. History is nothing but the activity of men in pursuit of their ends"

.

I don't see that these quotes show that Marx didn't have a deterministic outlook. The first one seems to me to say only that there can be circumstances outside of our control (and that's compatible with determinism); the second doesn't deny necessity, it only says that necessity is blind (i.e., unaware of itself) until we become conscious of it; and the final quote simply denies agency to history, which, again, is compatible with a deterministic outlook.
You've obviously read more Marx than I have, so I wouldn't presume to say you're wrong here, but these particular quotes don't seem to make your case.

[BohsPartisan]

What I am trying to illustrate that Marx saw a role for the individual in shaping history, that is contrary to a deterministic outlook. Determinism is where history is shaped by blind forces that we have no control over eg. God or the Market, or in the case of the determinist early "social democrats" who would have described themselves as Marxists, history itself would dictate the inevitable progression towards Socialism. It was in response to Bernstein's determinist revisionism that Marx declared "if this is Marxism then I am not a Marxist". Engels wrote a critique of revisionist "Marxist" determinism in Anti-Duhring.
The opposite of a determinist view of history is the belief that "great individuals" shape history and external forces play no part. Genuine Marxism is somewhere in between and contains elements of both versions of history which is why I said it was an example of the dialectical law of the "interpenetration of opposites".

[Dr.Nightdub]

Best explanation of dialectics I can remember is from our history teacher in school:

1. Take a thesis (i.e. an idea or a proposition)
2. Take its antithesis (i.e. a directly contradictory or opposing idea)
3. From the meeting of the two will flow a synthesis
The process by which this happens is dialectics.

[jebus]

I see that America is about to vote in their first Socialist Senator in Bernie Sanders from Vermont. It's a pretty significant piece of history if you ask me, although I don't know too much about the guy, so I'll this link do the talking :)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/midterms2006/story/0,,1937064,00.html

[Lim till i die]

Stayed up Saturday night and watched the box-set of "Boys form the Blackstuff" my dad got me (Insert joke about lack of life here)

Absolutely amazing. I strongly suggest anyone with even a passing interest in the issues in this thread lay hands on it asap

[BohsPartisan]

Theres a new book/pamphlet out which is very relevent to this thread and anyone who is interesting in getting an understanding of what Marxism means in the 21st century. Its called "Marxism in Today's World (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/bookframe.htm)" and it is in Q&A form. The questioners are a couple of Italian guys who would describe themselves as Marxists but would have a very different approach to key questions than the Socialist Party/Committee for a Workers' International. The intervewee is Peter Taafe, veteran Socialist (and Everton fan!) who is the General Secretary of The Socialist Party of England and Wales (Our sister party over there).
Seeing as how a lot of this thread was focussed on where the Socialist Party stand on many issues, I thought this would be of interest for the non-socialists here as much as the socialists.

[Lim till i die]

Theres a new book/pamphlet out which is very relevent to this thread and anyone who is interesting in getting an understanding of what Marxism means in the 21st century. Its called "Marxism in Today's World (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/bookframe.htm)" and it is in Q&A form.

£5 :eek: :o

[BohsPartisan]

Hardly extortionate now is it compared to the price of books in Waterstones or Easons. These things cost a lot of money to print and as the print run wouldn't be massive it costs more than if you are running off thousands of copies of a bestseller.

[Lim till i die]

Hardly extortionate now is it compared to the price of books in Waterstones or Easons. These things cost a lot of money to print and as the print run wouldn't be massive it costs more than if you are running off thousands of copies of a bestseller.

Wasn't being smart man

It's just as one of those working class far left types I genuinely don't have a spare fiver for a pamplet this week :o

I'm sure it is a good read

[BohsPartisan]

if Militant had won that particular battle the Tories would still be in power. Then again, you're lot are just a rebranded Millies are you not?

KOH

That is one of the great myths created by Kinnock. Who is in power now? Oh they call themselves labour but are they? They are Tories in all but name. Same policies same interests. Same lies. Same vile sleazebags controlling stuff.
The fact is, Labours best election performances of the 80's were in areas where Militant were strongest - Particularly Liverpool - where the Militant led Labour council transformed the lives of working class people. Look at the stats if you get the chance. It blows that arguement out of the water.
In fact if it wasn't for Militant, Thatcher would have lasted a lot longer than she did. It was the Anti-Poll tax campaign that finished her. Who led that? Militant.
And yes we are Militant rebranded. I for one am proud to be part of the traditon that fought Thatcherism when that jaundiced tosser Kinnock was bending over backwards to the whims of the daily mail. The fact that Kilroy Silk was part of his entourage says it all.

Check out Militant (http://www.militant.org.uk) and The Story of the Liverpool Struggle (http://www.liverpool47.org/)

[WeAreRovers]

It was the Anti-Poll tax campaign that finished her. Who led that? Militant.


:D

Excellent piece of revisionism there. Even Class War have more of a claim to ending the poll tax than Militant. The Millies latched on to a mass movement - like they did with the Miners Strike, Troops Out and almost any cause you can mention.

Bandwagon jumping is official Militant policy. Same goes for your brothers in daft Trotskyism, the SWP. They invented the Anti Nazi league purely as a recruiting tool. All authoritarian politics sucks - left and right.

BTW I was briefly involved with Militant 20 years ago so I know what I'm talking about. The Moonies with a newspaper. ;)

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

Briefly? Obviously not long enough. Even Thatcher acknowledged our role. Ask anyone in Scotland who led tha Anti Poll tax struggle they'll tell you it was Militant and Tommy Sheridan. Militant set up the Fed (Anti-Poll Tax Federation). Class War? you must be joking. In 1988 Militant had 8,000 members in Britain. I doubt Class War ever had 800 members. Militant held a conference in Wembley Arena ffs.

You can't compare SWP's use of fronts and our involvement in fronts. I've been a member of both organisations. I jumped ship to the SP because of the way the SWP use fronts. The SP/Militant is a whole different kettle of fish.

Anyway we're drifting off topic here. Maybe these couple of posts could be moved to the Socialism thread

[WeAreRovers]

Anyway we're drifting off topic here. Maybe these couple of posts could be moved to the Socialism thread

Bring it on. ;)

KOH

[Dr.Nightdub]

They invented the Anti Nazi league purely as a recruiting tool.

Jesus, WAR, that's some distortion of history. At least give them credit for a genuine loathing for fascism, the NF, BNP and all who sail in her and a genuine desire to stop the scum in their tracks. There's easier ways of recruiting new members than ending up like Blair Peach. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


You can't compare SWP's use of fronts and our involvement in fronts.

Hair-splitting differentiation between "use of" and "involvement in" there, BP. ;)

Having once become a swimmie through a "front",(I joined the first No To War In The Gulf Campaign as an unaffiliated malcontent and one thing led to another) I kinda understand the theory here. If I remember right, it all goes back to Trotsky and the whole discussion around popular fronts versus united fronts in the 30s.

Unfortunately, "front" carries all sorts of pejorative baggage whereas "alliance" is what you're really dealing with. The critical thing is the terms on which the alliance is formed. "Front" implies hiding what your politics are about and to be honest, that's not something of which I'd ever accuse either the Swimmies or the Millies.

It makes sense from a point of view of broadening the party's reach, but also in terms of providing a determined socialist approach to tackling whatever issue is at hand. Again, having seen a few of these in action, I'd say both parties are pretty upfront about what they stand for.

Having resumed my unaffiliated malcontent status a number of years ago, I'd say the only real difference in approach is that the Millies tend to be a bit more restrained in terms of the number of campaigns / alliances / fronts they initiate, whereas the Swimmies go at it hell for leather.

I s'pose that stems from the respective parties' short-term goals: the Millies want to extend their electoral presence (and don't get me wrong, I think Joe Higgins ****es over any TD currently sitting and probably way out-passes Michael D when he cared or Tony Gregory when he was just starting out).

The Swimmies have - or had in the early 90s - a mania for building the party (and also a mania for parties generally!). It made sense at the time of the pre-Tiger downturn, cos there was a genuine urgency in terms of it needing to be done, now I'm not so sure. From talking to people who are still members, I think their emphasis has gone back towards convincing people about their ideas rather than action, action, action. I could be wrong though.

It all certainly made a poster-boy out of RBB though! :D

[rebs23]

[QUOTE=Dr.Nightdub;584527]Jesus, WAR, that's some distortion of history. At least give them credit for a genuine loathing for fascism, the NF, BNP and all who sail in her and a genuine desire to stop the scum in their tracks. There's easier ways of recruiting new members than ending up like Blair Peach. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

The Anti Nazi League were the most baltant recruiting tool for the SWP ever. Witnessed them in action on numerous occasions in London in the late 80's and early 90's and to say they deserve any credit for fighting fascism is a complete distortion. As for their genuine loathing for fascism, I'd say it was more a love for recruitring students than a loathing for fascism that motivated them.
In fairness whatever else you say about Red Action and Class War they were the only two groups that were willing to take on the NF/BNP when it mattered most eg the Battle of Waterloo.