A New Low - the North Overtake Us

[gspain]

I think it is embarrassingly that we are below Northern Ireland in the rankings. Their squad is made up mainly of lower division players who are not as good as ours. Their team however is clearly better at the moment.

[Dodge]

And he later managed Pats to great success. I'm actually trying to research him now gspain so if you have anything on him I'd appreciate any help. PM me if you can...

(No hassle if you can't)

[Dodge]

citizenerased, Don't post rubbish like that here. This is a final warning

[RogerMilla]

gsapin has hit the nail on the head , NI are punching above their weight and fair play to them , we are obviously nowhere near the standard we should be for the quality of player we have and our ability to start 11 top premiership players when our squad is fully fit. We should have bloody hammered cyprus away and we should have beaten the czechs at home too.

[Dodge]

our ability to start 11 top premiership players

I challenge you to back this claim up

[Donal81]

There's an element of the ROI support that I cannot stand - those that engage in political, anti British (many born on the island of Ireland are British/Irish), pro IRA chanting - but, in the main, I think the ROI support is fantastic.

And if you check my posts on this site, I've always said how pathetic those clowns are in Lansdowne Road, as are those who find some way of justifying them. I should have added this to my last comment for balance, I suppose. My original point was that I love what the North is doing now, making the most of the average players at its disposal, while our chancers, some of whom are considered to be top Premiership players, got trollied by Cyprus.

I suppose my views on Windsor Park will always be tainted by 1993. The anti-Irish abuse I expected and could understand and still would today and the times were different - but I'll never understand the monkey chants.

[eirebhoy]

The old system of rankings was at least broadly plausible, but the current method can absolutely not be taken seriously when
http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1871529,00.html
You just fluctuate a lot more with these rankings. We won't be lying 15th for 2 years any more. :) We could easily be in the top 20 within the next few months.

[Billsthoughts]

There's an element of the ROI support that I cannot stand - those that engage in political, anti British (many born on the island of Ireland are British/Irish), pro IRA chanting - but, in the main, I think the ROI support is fantastic.

pro IRA chanting?
when was that? NEVER EVER once heard it at a match

[Not Brazil]

pro IRA chanting?
when was that? NEVER EVER once heard it at a match

You've never heard the "add ons" to "The Fields"?

I was merely being guided by the observations of your fellow ROI fans on this very Board on various occassions.:eek:

[as_i_say]

i have deffo heard pro ira chanting at some games at landsdowne but thats been from the celtic shirt wearing under 20 moronic population. I agree with donals views about 1993-i will never forget that i dont think. Also agree that the north support has improved a lot.

there was a discussion on this board a while back about "british flags" at windsor as opposed to the northern flag itself and it seems now that the loyal supporter is really supporting NI as a team itself and have identified themselves with that rather than flying the UJ which i could never see the point of at a NI game. (you wont see too many UJ's at hampden for exapmle)

Anyway yeah hopefully form will be restored and we'll see healy and co losing friendlies to canada and on the back of a 0-5 in spain. :cool:

[eirebhoy]

You've never heard the "add ons" to "The Fields"?

In fairness, you should have said "There's an element of the Irish public that I cannot stand". You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game. Anyway, lets try to keep this on topic (FIFA rankings).

[Not Brazil]

You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game. Anyway, lets try to keep this on topic (FIFA rankings).

You must have missed as i say's post, directly above yours.

As for the rankings, no change since yesterday.:)

[Stuttgart88]

Which of the following points, if any, are contentious in people's opinion?


Ireland's decline in the rankings is deserved because competitive results have been poor since WC02. On the other hand Northern Ireland & Scotland's rise up the rankings accurately reflect improved results after a period of very poor performance.


Football is not a science. At 2-2 Raul missed a sitter against Northern Ireland and later the Spanish defence completely missed a goalkeeper's kickout for Healy to score. Likewise, Henry hit the inside of the post against Scotland and Scotland's only goal came from a poorly defended set-piece. When Ireland played France at Lansdowne Andy Reid hit the post & Henry's 25 yarder went inside the post, not against it like in Scotland. What I'm saying is that each of those 3 games could have gone either way, or finished as draws. Our most famous recent(ish) result - Holland in 2001 - was a travesty. Our draw in Lisbon was fluke, our draw in Amsterdam was the least we deserved. And so on.


There's further merit in Scotland's rise because in the last 12 months they've had very creditable results away from home. You could add their 1-1 with Italy and a narrow defeat to Italy away as creditable too. You can also add Northern Ireland's 0-0 in Denmark, but our away draws in the last group were just as creditable and there's no shame losing 1-0 in Stuttgart (despite justified criticism of the selection & the performance of certain players).


I think that no categoric conclusion can really be drawn other than Scotland & Northern Ireland are now capable of competing against good teams, especially at home. The real picture will be revealed at the end of the groups though.


Pathetic as Ireland's defeat in Cyprus was, if Ireland had lost 3-0 at home to Iceland that would have been met with even more derision.


Ireland's decline is not terminal. It can be reversed and soon if we get good results against Wales & Slovakia, and maybe a surprise home win at Croker against Germany.


On an individual basis, most club managers would prefer to have more of Ireland's players than Northern Ireland's or Scotland's.


There are lessons to be learnt from the relative success of our neighbours.


Applying these lessons could well reverse Ireland's fortunes, at least to the degree where we can at least make a good go at qualification.

[eirebhoy]

You must have missed as i say's post, directly above yours.

As for the rankings, no change since yesterday.:)
And I'm sure if 30,000 people were singing The Fields of Athenry on O'Connoll street you'd hear the add ons too! ;)

[as_i_say]

agree about your scienc-y point as in it really is the case now that any team in europe can beat any other team on any given day however in relation to our campaign for wc 2002, we had a really strong team.

i dont think our 1-1 in lisbon was a fluke. holland scored a cracker and neither team had many clear cut chances. the 1-0 win in dublin against dutch was lucky but in the end we took our only chance and they didnt take any of theirs.

as for france 0-1 at home, we could have played for 5 hours and not scored a goal. this was a brian kerr team.

The north have spirit now, and as much as it used to annoy me listening to sky news go on about the great spirit in our camp 5 years ago (as opposed to the good football we were playing), you only realise how important that sh it is when its gone. If we can get that back things will improve.

[Stuttgart88]

Maybe you're right about Lisbon. It wasn't exactly a "watch from behind the sofa" job but I never saw us getting back in the game after they scored. Robbie had a chance to deflect a shot into their goal late in the first half I think but that's all i can recall.

I think we could easily have drawn to France at home and if Reid had scored or we'd been awarded a good penalty cliam it might have been a famous night. Morrison narrowly missed in the first half too I think. Once France scored that was it I agree.

The North are saying now that they just love getting together. I bet the Scots are the same. It used to be like that for us & it still should be.

[Prof Hoffman]

I agree Stuttgart88.
The whole WC '06 qualifying campaign was frustration incarnate. Some people blame the French goal, others the Israel games which were basically thrown away. The team seemed to lack belief. That was the missing ingredient - belief.
I mean, we had qualified for WC '02 out of a group that included Holland and Portugal. Without our best player we almost made it to a Quarter Finals against South Korea. We did play well..I remember Ian Harte was off form, and missed 2 penalties in that Spain match. So near and yet so far. Thats the way it goes.
I seem to remember Euro '04 group looked fairly easy, and Switzerland and Russia came along and ruined that party. The confidence was shattered..the only way was down. If it had been Italy, say, or Germany that beat us..not good.. but Russia and Switzerland?
A new manager would bring a positive influence back to the squad surely! But we got the less than positive managerial influence of Brian Kerr, a conservative, uninspired choice. Draws galore, and bye bye WC '06. Down we go again.
We needed someone with vision, some with guts to inspire confidence..and we got Stan "The Gaffer". With injuries galore (including Shay Given) and poor defending - down we fall.
I can only hope Robson can help inspire some confidence and positive thinking in the team, a winning mentality. He'll need to inspire Stan too. I think we will fall to close to 70 in the world rankings, before we can hope for an upturn. Euro '08 is gone, forget it. I hate to say that, but they are not capable of achieving a miracle at this time. The team will need some serious work mentally, and physically, before they can hope to become a force on the world stage.

[Stuttgart88]

Does the following contention have any legs?

In Jack's era international football was more glamourous than domestic football. Our players all played for big English clubs which were banned from Europe from 85 onwards (until when? 90 or 91??). International football was these players' only chance to compete in an international context.

These days with 4 teams qualifying for the CL, and another half dozen or whatever for UEFA, international football no longer is the only chance for these players to compete internationally. And even those players in teams that can't make any form of European football are playing for their lucrative careers fighting relegation. These days avoiding the drop is the only ambition shown by some clubs.

Therefore, maybe it can be argued that players from The Championship or Hearts or Hibs or wherever are just hungrier for the different angle that international football offers them? Maybe internationals are a tedious break in an otherwise exciting routine for some of our players? For others it's an exciting break in a tedious routine.

[EalingGreen]

Blimey, the pedants are out in force. Windsor Park, Windsor Park, Windsor Park, so sorry. Take the Colin Murphy gag personally if you want, a comedian was making a joke, as they tend to do, I was just passing it on.

If you read the rest of my post, it was complimenting the Northern Irish team. It's an element of their support that I can't stand, I was passing on a joke I had heard about it recently, no need to get all worked up.

The Murphy comment was one of two things:
1. A gag, pure and simple. An example of this is the old one doing the rounds at the moment about the kid in the custody battle, who doesn't want to live with his da because he beats him. When the judge asks, what about your ma, he refuses this, since she beats him worse. And the grandparents are out, since they beat him worst of all. So the judge passes him over to the custody of the FAI... (Yes, I know it's weak)
Anyhow, this gag is not about child abuse, rather it's about the FAI. Whereas, if Murphy was making a joke, it was in poor taste if it was at the expense of NI fans by unfairly maligning them.
2. Alternatively, Murphy might have been making a serious allegation about NI supporters' sectarianism, which he's entitled to do, in this case by the use of "humour".
However, on this last point, I simply do not believe that he happened to be walking past Windsor Road [sic] over 6 years ago (the last game v Malta) and heard the chant alleged, from a crowd of 8,000 - it doesn't even "scan" in the way such chants invariably do. In fact, it was a "nothing game", against entirely unremarkable opponents, played in front of the genuine supporters who have never indulged in this sort of behaviour in the three and a half decades I have been attending Windsor Park. (Invariably, when this sort of crap does occur - hardly ever these days - it is from a gang of casual hoods who turn up for the occasional "big" or contentious, game, where they will get an audience)

But whichever it was, Donal, you are being entirely disingenuous by first making the claim of "sectarianism", then attempting to pass it off as someone elses "joke" when challenged.

As for our getting "worked up", I for one am sick to the back teeth of this sort of casual guilt by association that I have to suffer solely from the fact that I am an NI supporter. This is especially so when it comes from people who haven't been to Windsor Park in years (if ever) and whose "knowledge" of the facts invariably stems from what "the bloke in the pub" told them he "saw", or a throwaway comment from some second-rate comic, or from grievances at events which have long-since passed, or the rantings of extremist policians and agitators with an agenda.

And you are not absolved of responsibility for your slur of the fans by the fact that you also posted that our team is playing well at the moment - these hardly cancel each other out. (Besides, it's pretty bloody obvious that we're doing well, to NI fans more than anyone else)

For the record, no-one amongst the NI support would claim that we are entirely devoid of occasional bad behaviour by a section of our support. However, through a great deal of hard work on many peoples part, we have managed to eliminate 99% of what formerly went on and are working hard to eradicate the last dregs.
As such, our fans are now widely recognised and acclaimed by independent and qualified observers as being amongst the "best" in Europe, dare I say it, up with the likes of the fans of the ROI, which is high praise by anyones standards.

[NeilMcD]

Great post Ealing. Fair play.

[Donal81]

But whichever it was, Donal, you are being entirely disingenuous by first making the claim of "sectarianism", then attempting to pass it off as someone elses "joke" when challenged.

I am not Ealing Green. I said in my post I didn't like that element of Northern football and added a joke by Colin Murphy about it. And, as you and two other Northern posters have noted several times, it was just a gag. For a gag, you're taking it awfully seriously.

And while I'm sure it's the minority for Northern Irish support, you say yourself that there remains a sectarian issue.


For the record, no-one amongst the NI support would claim that we are entirely devoid of occasional bad behaviour by a section of our support. However, through a great deal of hard work on many peoples part, we have managed to eliminate 99% of what formerly went on and are working hard to eradicate the last dregs.

And as for this:


And you are not absolved of responsibility for your slur of the fans by the fact that you also posted that our team is playing well at the moment - these hardly cancel each other out. (Besides, it's pretty bloody obvious that we're doing well, to NI fans more than anyone else)

What slur? The sectarian thing? But there is a sectarian issue there. It's not a slur if it's true, according to libel law.

I was pointing out that I have a lot of time for where the whole thing is going, it reminds of what we were like a few years ago. Don't worry, I won't be bothering to post that again.

[EalingGreen]

Which of the following points, if any, are contentious in people's opinion?

Pathetic as Ireland's defeat in Cyprus was, if Ireland had lost 3-0 at home to Iceland that would have been met with even more derision.


To save space, I'll not repeat the list, just state that I thought all your points were entirely valid.

However, I would take issue with one minor point - i.e. the Cyprus/Iceland comparison.

I was at the Iceland game and although it was an absolute shocker of a result, in some ways, it wasn't that bad a performance. By which I mean, in the opening 10-15 minutes, NI actually opened brightly. They were then hit by two defensive errors in quick succession, expertly finished by Iceland, which knocked us back on our heels. In the ensuing play, Gudjonnsen, the one truly world-class player on the pitch, took advantage of our deflation (and slack marking), to run the game, culminating in a fine individual goal from him just before half-time, which killed the game as a competition. Consequently, a section of the fans booed NI off the pitch.
However, with a couple of substitutions, the team salvaged their self-respect in the second half by taking the game to Iceland (admittedly, Iceland were content to sit back), so that we even got a half-hearted chorus of "We'll support you ever more" from the Kop.
And if you look at the statistics re. possession, territory, chances etc, you might have expected NI to have won 3-0! Which is not to say that we should have: we got exactly what we deserved from the match, which was nothing (and a deserved boot up the arse).
Nonetheless, coming off the pitch, most of the players could say that despite how badly they had performed, at least they had tried hard.

By contrast, from what I've read and seen of the Cyprus match, the discontent stemmed from the fact that so many of the players appeared to have "thrown in the towel", long before the finish. And considering the reputation of the players (individually higher man-for-man that that of the NI players), such a failing is even more inexcusable.

I think the other thing which emerges from the comparison is that for NI, the Iceland game can be seen as a "blip", in the course of nearly three years of steady, if slow, progress. And the shock was quickly alleviated by the way this progress was manifested in the next three matches.

Whereas, it can be argued that the ROI has been in steady, if slow, decline over the same period. As such, where this is due to the loss of some exceptional players, even due to managerial failings, this might just be accepted.
However, if the team also displays a lack of pride and effort, then that is unforgiveable, since even the lowliest team can put in 90 minutes effort.

Of course, the ROI players went some way towards salvaging their reputation by their effort versus the Czechs, by all accounts. However, I remember a similar reaction from NI each time we suffered a similar debacle in the past.
It is important not to forget that 100% effort should be the "default setting" from any international player, not least because the opposition will normally be displaying the same.
Consequently, if there are deeper, more fundamental problems with the ROI team rather than simply one of motivation, then these problems may not be fixed anytime soon. (At least, not whilst Martin O'Neill is still at Villa!)

Anyhow, you'll "do" San Marino, come what may!

[Prof Hoffman]

I think what Stuttgart88 was basically saying, that if Iceland was in our group and came over to Lansdowne winning 3-0, the calling for Stans head would have been just as strong as the 5-2 Cyprus debacle. If they played with more pride and passion the way NI did, believe it or not people might have been more worried! "They played their hearts out and still got hammered!". The old Lansdowne fortress is long gone. Maybe the new one will be better.

[Stuttgart88]

I have to say I was surprised by the Iceland result, especially after you won away in Finland in August, albeit a friendly. And yes, there were no redeeming features in our game against Cyprus whatsoever, whereas if you say so I can accept that maybe 3-0 wasn't a fair outcome, probably like Wales didn't deserve to lose 5-1 at home to Slovakia.

For the record, when I saw NI vs Spain on TV all I could see was a bunch of young lads in green singing and thoroughly enjoying the way a thrilling game was unfolding. My NI mates, generally middle class / white collar types are proud as punch of their team and feel much more like it belongs to them again because the sectarian thing seems to be being kicked for touch.

By and large I think both teams in Ireland have very good support and long may it last.

[Stuttgart88]

I think what Stuttgart88 was basically saying, that if Iceland was in our group and came over to Lansdowne winning 3-0, the calling for Stans head would have been just as strong as the 5-2 Cyprus debacle. Yes, regardless of the performance the result would have been met with even more derision.

[Not Brazil]

And I'm sure if 30,000 people were singing The Fields of Athenry on O'Connoll street you'd hear the add ons too! ;)

Pardon my old age eirebhoy, but I miss your point completely.

Please elaborate.

[eirebhoy]

Pardon my old age eirebhoy, but I miss your point completely.

Please elaborate.
percentage of Irish football fans that would sing the add ons pretty much = the percentage of the Irish public that would sing the add ons. The fact that a few Irish fans would sing add ons says nothing about Ireland's support. I'm sure a few U2 fans do aswell. :) Anyway, stop dragging this out now... :mad: ;)

[Not Brazil]

percentage of Irish football fans that would sing the add ons pretty much = the percentage of the Irish public that would sing the add ons. The fact that a few Irish fans would sing add ons says nothing about Ireland's support.

Oh, right - thanks.:confused:

Earlier you said:

"You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game"

No need to drag it out any further.;)

[Paddy Garcia]

Rangers have signed many Irish players, they may not be from ROI but they are from the Island of Ireland so this comment is inacurrate.

Frankly this is a bit of a hateful debate of which no good will come - I' m sorry I posted on this topic at all. And I certainly could do without a debate on rangers openness to signing players from the Republic.

[as_i_say]

not exactly hateful but not exactly relevant either. rangers as a club have never contributed anything to ROI football but the people who boo rangers players that play for international teams at games are just tools, we all know this but to have any discussion about rangers and ireland is frankly boring.

[Qwerty]

Does the following contention have any legs?

In Jack's era international football was more glamourous than domestic football. Our players all played for big English clubs which were banned from Europe from 85 onwards (until when? 90 or 91??). International football was these players' only chance to compete in an international context.

These days with 4 teams qualifying for the CL, and another half dozen or whatever for UEFA, international football no longer is the only chance for these players to compete internationally. And even those players in teams that can't make any form of European football are playing for their lucrative careers fighting relegation. These days avoiding the drop is the only ambition shown by some clubs.

Therefore, maybe it can be argued that players from The Championship or Hearts or Hibs or wherever are just hungrier for the different angle that international football offers them? Maybe internationals are a tedious break in an otherwise exciting routine for some of our players? For others it's an exciting break in a tedious routine.

I don't think that European football is as big a factor as the hugely inflated salaries now being paid in England. Because of Sky and the 7x24 sports news cycle and the internet we now have a complete celebrity culture and somehow average football pros are treated as stars. Pro players in England have had a transformation in lifestyle. This has to eat away at motivation in some of the players - they play for big contracts and once they get them they ease off a bit. Besides it's not as if we have that many players playing in Europe.

[eirebhoy]

Oh, right - thanks.:confused:

Earlier you said:

"You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game"

No need to drag it out any further.;)
Put it this way, I haven't heard any.

[Billy Lord]

EL clubs are now doing better in Europe than in comparison to the national side, yet the vast majority of 'Ireland' fans prefer to support English clubs. Are Ireland fans the greatet bunch of losers/day trippers/event snobs the world has ever seen?

[gspain]

Oh, right - thanks.:confused:

Earlier you said:

"You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game"

No need to drag it out any further.;)

There have been debates on this site about sectarian chanting but it has been confined (so far) in bars or in one case a public square in Stuttgart.

I don't think it is right anywhere but there has to be a distinction between being sung at a game and in a bar.

[gspain]

I don't think this is down to the salaries and European Football. I think the manager has a huge influence in football. Look at Aston Villa now.

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause. Our players are playing week in week out at a higher level. David Healy has never started a game in club football at the top level in any league. I was at the Spain game and the Spanish players were lightyears ahead of the NI players in some cases yet they lost and deserved to lose because they were up against a better team on the night.

We had it with Jack. Mick McCarthy grew into the job after some shocking tactical mistakes. Brian Kerr is a good manager but he had to go last year. He had lost the dressingroom and had lost the plot. His decisions cost us dearly in both Israel games. It may have been that he felt under too much pressure once John Delaney took over as CEO but that late equaliser in Tel Aviv and the subsequent collapse in Dublin sealed his fate. A wonder goal from Thierry Henry can always happen but we were in a position to win the group in March 05 irrespective of the French game.

Stan was a very good player but hardly a talker or a leader on the field. There is nothing to suggest to me that he is or will be a good manager. I was amazed at his appointment but really hope I'll be proved wrong. A fit Bobby Robson would certainly make a huge difference

[Stuttgart88]

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause.

It was in another thread recently that his and Aldridge's club managerial records were very similar, Aldridge arguably more successful. If the position was available tomorrow would you advocate Aldridge?

[Qwerty]

I don't think this is down to the salaries and European Football. I think the manager has a huge influence in football. Look at Aston Villa now.

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause. Our players are playing week in week out at a higher level. David Healy has never started a game in club football at the top level in any league. I was at the Spain game and the Spanish players were lightyears ahead of the NI players in some cases yet they lost and deserved to lose because they were up against a better team on the night.

We had it with Jack. Mick McCarthy grew into the job after some shocking tactical mistakes. Brian Kerr is a good manager but he had to go last year. He had lost the dressingroom and had lost the plot. His decisions cost us dearly in both Israel games. It may have been that he felt under too much pressure once John Delaney took over as CEO but that late equaliser in Tel Aviv and the subsequent collapse in Dublin sealed his fate. A wonder goal from Thierry Henry can always happen but we were in a position to win the group in March 05 irrespective of the French game.

Stan was a very good player but hardly a talker or a leader on the field. There is nothing to suggest to me that he is or will be a good manager. I was amazed at his appointment but really hope I'll be proved wrong. A fit Bobby Robson would certainly make a huge difference

There are many factors, if you check the forum I have always said the manager is the most important person, his ability has a greater bearing on results than any other individual - but I do feel that the fat cat players that managers have to deal with today pose a new challenge to managers.

BW Stan was most definitely a leader on the field.

[EalingGreen]

There are many factors, if you check the forum I have always said the manager is the most important person, his ability has a greater bearing on results than any other individual - but I do feel that the fat cat players that managers have to deal with today pose a new challenge to managers.

BW Stan was most definitely a leader on the field.

I agree 100% of the importance of the manager; however, I would qualify your "fat cat" comment, since the basic principles of man-management should be the same whether you are dealing with superstars or donkeys. Martin O'Neill has shown this in a managerial career covering everything from Shepshed Charterhouse to Stan Collymore!
In NI's case, we don't have too many "fat cats", but one of our most talented players is left back George McCartney (ex-Sunderland, now WHU). For whatever reason, he didn't get on with Sanchez and said he wouldn't play for him anymore.
As it happens, his natural replacement, Mark Clyde of Wolves, has been permanently injured for two years and the next choice, Tony Capaldi of Plymouth has had to endure two years being shown up out of his natural position (left wingback).
Finally, Sanchez fast-tracked 18-year-old Centre Back Jonny Evans, who seems to have settled in fine.
In the short-term, we might have done better if Sanchez had swallowed his pride and brought McC back in; in the longer term, however, I think we have more than benefited by the reinforcement of team morale and Lawrie's authority.
Contrast that with Staunton's handling of Lee Carsley.

As for Stan's leadership on the field: might that be because he knew what he was doing as a player, but doesn't as a manager? Bobby Charlton was a true leader on the pitch for MU and England, but a failure as a manager. Whereas, his much less talented brother Jack was only an average pla... OK, you probably know the rest!

[geysir]

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.
ATM (it might last 5 minutes) I have a renewed conditional faith in Stan to do well.
As Giles never tires of saying that the starting point of any team is spirit.
Optimism, based on some evidence of that spirit over the 90 minutes and a decent batch of new competent players in Doyle, McGeady and McShane. Decent back ups with Kelly and Douglas.
But if I began to list the conditions I might slip back into despair.

[eirebhoy]

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.
I think that's a no-brainer since Kerr failed to beat them so Stan can't do worse. ;)

[gspain]

It was in another thread recently that his and Aldridge's club managerial records were very similar, Aldridge arguably more successful. If the position was available tomorrow would you advocate Aldridge?

I'd consider him although he has been out of the game for a long time. Unfortunately the job is not as attractive now as it was last year.

Stan was never a leader on the pitch IMO. He did his own job and did it well. He was appointed captain only for the World Cup when there weren't a lot of other options. He wasn't an inspirational player like McCarthy, Moran or Keane for example. I don't recall if he ever captained Liverpool, Villa or Coventry when an pbvious leader who plays in defence would have to have been a candidate.

[wws]

I agree 100% of the importance of the manager; however, I would qualify your "fat cat" comment, since the basic principles of man-management should be the same whether you are dealing with superstars or donkeys. Martin O'Neill has shown this in a managerial career covering everything from Shepshed Charterhouse to Stan Collymore!
In NI's case, we don't have too many "fat cats", but one of our most talented players is left back George McCartney (ex-Sunderland, now WHU). For whatever reason, he didn't get on with Sanchez and said he wouldn't play for him anymore.
As it happens, his natural replacement, Mark Clyde of Wolves, has been permanently injured for two years and the next choice, Tony Capaldi of Plymouth has had to endure two years being shown up out of his natural position (left wingback).
Finally, Sanchez fast-tracked 18-year-old Centre Back Jonny Evans, who seems to have settled in fine.
In the short-term, we might have done better if Sanchez had swallowed his pride and brought McC back in; in the longer term, however, I think we have more than benefited by the reinforcement of team morale and Lawrie's authority.
Contrast that with Staunton's handling of Lee Carsley.

As for Stan's leadership on the field: might that be because he knew what he was doing as a player, but doesn't as a manager? Bobby Charlton was a true leader on the pitch for MU and England, but a failure as a manager. Whereas, his much less talented brother Jack was only an average pla... OK, you probably know the rest!



What did Jack ever win as a manager to compare with his feats as a player?
I think he gained promotion for boro or somebody but thats it - won nothing with Eire (hehe)

won everything in the game as a player

also Martin O neill never got to the cl group stages - strachan looks on course

O neill is over rated - but knows well its all about creating ure own myth

[Collyontour]

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.
ATM (it might last 5 minutes) I have a renewed conditional faith in Stan to do well.
As Giles never tires of saying that the starting point of any team is spirit.
Optimism, based on some evidence of that spirit over the 90 minutes and a decent batch of new competent players in Doyle, McGeady and McShane. Decent back ups with Kelly and Douglas.
But if I began to list the conditions I might slip back into despair.

If I had a choice between Stan and Kerr to lead us aginst the Cypriots away, I know who I'd choose.

[Midgit]

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[geysir]

I think that's a no-brainer since Kerr failed to beat them so Stan can't do worse. ;)

But at least I have a quote :)

[Collyontour]

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:

I wouldn't mind if NI were above us if they were in the top 10. The fact that we're at 49 is not just embarrassing, it's a disgrace. Surely we're not that bad, are we?

[geysir]

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:
Wherever NI are in the FIFA table doesn't make me feel better or worse about where we are.
What's relevant, if comparison does matter to some people,
is the information from the official seedings thread

28. Ireland ave points 1.385
33. N. I. ave points 1.143

[EalingGreen]

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad:

You have dropped to 49th in the rankings; I'll leave you to determine how embarrassing (or otherwise) that may be, but leave NI out of it. Otherwise, on present form it could get a lot worse, if you judge your situation solely by reference to your Northern Chums.
Perhaps you should comfort yourself that you're still one place above Macedonia. Or 10 above Uzbekistan. Being 15 places places above Burkina Faso should give you bragging rights in Africa. Dammit, you're still 28 places above Wales!
For the moment...;)

[EalingGreen]

Wherever NI are in the FIFA table doesn't make me feel better or worse about where we are.
What's relevant, if comparison does matter to some people,
is the information from the official seedings thread

28. Ireland ave points 1.385
33. N. I. ave points 1.143

Fair point, Geysir. Mind you, the Seedings Table is turning, too, so you'd better hope that Stan finds a way to stop the rot before your next ECQ games.

[Kingdom]

And I'm sure if 30,000 people were singing The Fields of Athenry on O'Connoll street you'd hear the add ons too! ;)

Don't hear it in Thomond Pk with 20k, singing it, or in CArdiff, with 60/65k singing it. Just because some do it, doesn't make it right. 3 lads tried to do it at the Czech game. One got a warning to cop on, then he got a slap in the head. Fully merited. If we're gonna give the Nordies cop about their Sectarianism then we can't allow any shyte at our own games.