Basque and Catalan national teams?

[Dodge]

Phil Ball on soccernet (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=384226&root=europe&cc=5739)

Barcelona's take (http://www.fcbarcelona.com/eng/noticias/noticias/n06100807.shtml)

Interesting times.

[Lim till i die]

For two proud and ancient "nations" they sure did a good job of filling the Nou Camp :rolleyes:

Catalans really annoy me with their phony nationalism. When it boils down to it they know which side their breads buttered and have never made a serious attempt to secede

It's just peoples republic of Cork syndrome on a larger scale

[Dodge]

Some Catalans are very nationalistic, some aren't. Those who are are definitely not phoney. Get a grip man.

And 57,000 is a huge crowd of Catalans as no Basques travelled.

[ccfcman]

The Basque would be more likely to get one, and a bloody good team too.

By laws of the club, all Athletico Bilbao players must be of Basque origin, they'd maybe pic a few out of the likes of Real Socidad also.

Whereas Barcelon and Espanyol have alot of foreign imports.

[Dodge]

Just a correction, there's nothing in the rules of Athletic Bilbao stopping them from playing non Basques. They just don't do it. Sciedad play foreigners but not Spanish folk.

Both have played Spanish and foreigners in the past (note all histories day they don't play non basques in the "modern era")

In terms of legal structures, both regions are fairly level in that regard (Catalans got a whole heap of new powers last year and inclued in that was the word "nation" in their official documents.


Its way, way more comlicated than purely football and I won't pretend to know that much about it either

[Lim till i die]

Some Catalans are very nationalistic, some aren't. Those who are are definitely not phoney. Get a grip man.

And 57,000 is a huge crowd of Catalans as no Basques travelled.

How come the Nou Camp can be full for Barcelona games but not for the "national" side :confused:

I realise tourists and the like play their part but surely not to such a large extent, plus whos to say there wasn't a lot of tourists at that game

[Dodge]

No tourists at it because it wasn't advertised heavily (read the Phil Ball article). Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

[Lim till i die]

No tourists at it because it wasn't advertised heavily (read the Phil Ball article). Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all (Or indeed this thread)

I don't think you'll change my mind on Catalans, they're not refered to as the Jews of Spain for nothing (if thats offensive to anyone I'll cheerfuly withdraw) Basically from what I have read on them they wave around the nationalist card to gain concessions from Madrid without ever having a notion of actually doing anything about it as they have it so good within Spain

BTW I will concede my anti-Catalan bias stems solely from reading a few articles ages ago and the book "Morbo", if I'm wrong I'm more than willing to learn :o

[el punter]

BTW I will concede my anti-Catalan bias stems solely from reading a few articles ages ago and the book "Morbo", if I'm wrong I'm more than willing to learn :o

Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance

[Lim till i die]

Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance

Is that not hugely pro-Catalan though??

[el punter]

Is that not hugely pro-Catalan though??

Somewhere between the Madrid propaganda of 'White Storm' and the 'Barca' propaganda lies room for you to draw your own conclusions.

I don't think the Catalonia nationalism is phoney at all, on the contrary Spanish nationalism is somewhat of an oxymoron.

On a related point, Gibraltar are also trying to establish an international football identity...here (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=383544&cc=5739)

[Dodge]

In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all (Or indeed this thread)
Well ball probably wrote about it because he had nothing else to write about. I posted it here because I'm interested in it. There are obviously catalans who go between both of them but fair play to you making your second mass generalisation to annoy me in two days...

If Barca get 80K at a game, I think its fairly safe to assume that at least 30k of them will either be tourists or Spanish. Just because Barca is a symbol of Catalunya doesn't mean that all their supporters are nationalists.

[drinkfeckarse]

Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

To be fair on that score Dodge, it's hardly going to be competitive international. All games between the 2 would surely be classed international friendlies wouldn't they?

[Dodge]

Yep, was just saying that the casual football fan (i.e. those not interested in the nationalistic angle) wouldn't be arsed going to it. A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it

[drinkfeckarse]

A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it

That's a good marker. 57,000 indicates a great crowd then if you look at it that way.

[Lim till i die]

Well ball probably wrote about it because he had nothing else to write about. I posted it here because I'm interested in it. There are obviously catalans who go between both of them but fair play to you making your second mass generalisation to annoy me in two days...


Surely that's nothing to be proud of :p

You have to generalise to a certain extent when dealing with things as broad as national identity, I can't ask every Catalan personally how they feel about the issue. All I am saying is that in a region with a population of over 7 million a crowd of 57,000 for a showpiece game against the Basques might suggest that Catalan Nationalism isn't quite as rampant as some would have you believe

Also apologies for going off topic but I've been over yesterday and not once did I make a generalisation with regards to the issue that bothered you. I was merely stating an opinion

[Dodge]

Right, first the off topic bit, you stated that youi can't listen to a Catholic debating what is evil, implying you believe the Catholic church to have done many evil things (you explained this later on). Your point implies that all Catholics steadfastly think the Church did no wrong, which frankly is rubbish. Lots and lots of catholic scholars know the church did massive amounts of wrongdoings and there are moeve,ents within to church to remove some of their current policies. You absolutely did lump all Catholics in together

Here, you said Catalans annoy you with your "Phoney nationalism". I was pointing out that those who believe in Catalan nationalism arenot phoney, those who don't believe it cannot be called Catalan nationalsit and therefore couldn't be included. By constantly trying to suggest it was a poor crowd you're assuming that all Catalan nationalist would go toa football game... If there was a vote for separation and 57,000 turned up, then you could argue about it but 57,000 people turning up to a football game is good (BTW the only landmark issue is playing the Basques, the Catalan team play every year)

[Pablo]

Didnt Andalusia play Brazil a few years back?

[Dodge]

Most of the regions play an international team once a year.

[Over the post]

Tis a difficult one. I've lived in Madrid for eleven years now where most of the population are very centrist and suspicious of Catalan or Basque nationalism to say the least. But being an Irishman (married to a Galician) I am very sympathetic to national minorities.
One common trait among Spaniards is that they are hugely proud of the town/village where they are from and are genuinely convinced that their village's wine, landscape, women, etc. are unrivalled the world over. This often applies to football too; even the proudest Spaniard will follow the fortunes of his club (be it Madrid, Barça or whatever) more closely than that of the national team. And in the same way that the most reactionary Real Madrid fan won't give a toss if the national team are beaten by Norn Iron as long as Capello can get Ronaldo and Van Nistelroy firing on all cylinders, your ardent Catalan nationalist will prefer to see Ronaldinho and the lads blazing a trail through Europe rather than have the Catalan team achieve full recognition.

[lopez]

Just a correction, there's nothing in the rules of Athletic Bilbao stopping them from playing non Basques. They just don't do it.

Like this player:

http://www.athletic-club.net/acc/home.asp?a=1&b=250&equipo=1&jug=404&idi=1



Sciedad play foreigners but not Spanish folk.
Like these players

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/home/real.asp?menu=010101&jugador=45100&fnd=NOVO

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/home/real.asp?menu=010101&jugador=58527&fnd=RIVAS,%20D.

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/home/real.asp?menu=010101&jugador=43648&fnd=CIFU

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/home/real.asp?menu=010101&jugador=58425&fnd=GERARDO

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/home/real.asp?menu=010101&jugador=58370&fnd=JUANITO

Incidentally in the post - dictatorship era, how come a club with such a pride in Basque nationalism continues to call itself Real Sociedad, and that there seems to be no vocal group calling for a rename?



In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all.

I think the fact that this fixture was last played in the seventies during the Franco era says everything about the reality of this 'international': The equivalent in Ireland being Munster v Leinster prior to the ERC and the Celtic League.



I don't think you'll change my mind on Catalans, they're not referred to as the Jews of Spain for nothing
I'm lost on this one. :confused:



Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance
Even Burns admits this excellent hagiography was more than just a little biased.


Yep, was just saying that the casual football fan (i.e. those not interested in the nationalistic angle) wouldn't be arsed going to it. A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it
This is quite a good attendance for Barcelona. 6,000 saw Spain play Denmark in the 70s. Maybe its something to do with what Lim till i die says about Catalans. The last time Spain played in Bilbao in 1967 they got 30K against Turkey, in a group that included ourselves. The gate for us was 5K less in Valencia and there were 5K more for the crucial Czech game in Madrid. More interestingly was the difference between the two friendlies between Spain and England in the eighties. The first played in Barcelona attracted 50K. The second in Madrid attracted 35K. Traditionally 'la seleccion' has been poorly supported across Spain, and the title of the team seems to uphold the indifference.


One common trait among Spaniards is that they are hugely proud of the town/village where they are from and are genuinely convinced that their village's wine, landscape, women, etc. are unrivalled the world over.
I think you hit the nail on the head here, and this trait is born from the fact that Spain is the most diverse country in Europe. Downtown Alicante looks exactly the same as downtown La Coruna and yet it's the little things that suggest there is a chasm between the two. Things like food. Then there is the well kept bullring in Alicante in contrast to the constant legal objections in Galicia to bullfighting by many residents. And of course the language. My grandmother moved from the latter to the former having never been outside Galicia in Spain. In the disorientated way of many of the elderly, she thought she was in France.

It is easy to generalise about anything, but I've seen Ikurrinas and Catalan flags at Spain games and I've seen people wearing Spain shirts at games involving Barcelona. Ball, sadly for the excellent writer he is, talks a lot of cojones IMO in the article, but in a way I can see his logic (if he's Madridista others here claim he is), although he fails to admit it if that's the case. Firstly he uses an example of comparing England with Spain. Spain is a country unified between Castille & Leon, Aragon (which included Catalonia) and Navarra (which included the Basques). The unification wasn't a case of force and invasion (like Ireland) by one party on the other. The use of the title of United Kingdom of Iberia can be shortened by the use of the word Spain (as in Britain for England, Wales and Scotland). They mean the same.

He uses the example of the 1920s Olympic team and then questions the participants on their nationalism purely on the grounds of where they are born, a typical British (and Irish to be honest) trait it has to be said. What exactly were their politics? The Basque country and Navarra were the home of some of the most extreme Spanish nationalists, the Carlists. Spain's most prominent post-dictatorship Francoist sporting administrator, Juan Samaranch, was from (shock, horror!) Barcelona. And then we have Joan Laporta, the 'Visca Catalunya' Barcelona president. Presumably he was at the game. Was his brother-in-law, a former member of the Barca board who also doubled as a director of a surreal foundation aimed at keeping alive the memory of Fat Frank? http://www.fnff.es/enlaces.htm

Normal unionists - like those on a demonstration in San Sebastian a couple of years ago - celebrate region/nation and state by carrying both flags (eg. Ikurrina and the Spanish flag), something that those at Fundacion Francisco Franco would find abhorrent.

Incidentally, Ball mentions the two 'nations'' leaders at the game. Galicia played Uruguay in it's first international since the second republic last December and both the leader of the BNG and the regional PP were present (one local newspaper showed the PP leader celbrating one of the goals). However, this didn't prevent a pre-match spat between the two parties over ticket allocation to party members (the BNG wanted the lot and the 'Spanish' PP to get none).

As for the question of a Basque and Catalan team in FIFA/UEFA competitions. Well how's this going to work? Spain is still a uinited country and if opinion polls are to be believed it's going to stay that way for a long time. The players who feel they are good enough to compete in a World Cup will opt for Spain, the cr*p ones or that rare breed of ideological minded player, like Oleguer, will play for Catalonia or Euskadi. (Oleguer, by the way was apparently considering playing for la seleccion before the World Cup. Aragones, given either the player's views in the past, or the fact he's not that good, eventually declined to pick him). Footballers are exactly that mercenary, as we have seen regarding the Irish team, and to suggest that regionalism destroys any chance of Spain winning any trophies should remember that Spain won the Basketball world cup with an equally diverse squad.

One final point. If UEFA and FIFA are to admit the Basque and Catalan national teams then stands to reason that they must submit their own leagues aswell. And here is where the true hypocrisy of Catalan nationalism may well be shown. Imagine Barcelona's highlight of the season a game against Gimnastic, Sabadell or Lleida, and the financial implications this entails. On the other hand we may well see Barcelona 'elect' to remain in the 'Spanish' Liga, choosing to unite with all that we all believe they detest.

[wws]

good post. Post of the Month in fact¬

Phill Ball lives up the north and I think watches sociedad as his team of choice
hardly a madrid man
he just wrote a book about the biggest team in Spain - thats how writers make money