Is there any eircom League player good enough

[ainsie]

Could somebody please explain this continual debate. The best players get to play in the better leagues. They get payed more money because their better. They are watched by much better minds in soccer than on this board to see if they are good enough. They are given trials to see if they are good enough. If they are good enough they will be given a chance because soccer is a business and anything that can make a good thing better is jumped at. There are lots of scouts in Ireland and feck all EL players are asked to play at a higher level and when they do , most fail and come back here to play for little money.
In America, players who cant make the NBA play in little european leagues, In baseball they go to Japan.In soccer in the US its all retired players and wannabees.

Its always the same. We have some players in the Irish team that SHOULD be playing in the EL but none in the EL that should be playing in the national team. I think the question here should be are some of the Irish players only good enough for EL not the other way round


Loyalty makes people blind to reality.

I really thought Mayo could win this years all ireland....that about sums it up.

[adamcarr]

I remember Billy Woods playing for the U21's when he was an EL player and having a stormer against England and for an EL XI against Liverpool when they opened the floodlights at Lansdowne, he never settled in England but having seen him in action 2 or 3 times I am of no doubt he had the ability to play at the top level in England.




Advice for you. Dont ever go to see Billy play again, you'll be scarred fo life.

[endabob1]

Advice for you. Dont ever go to see Billy play again, you'll be scarred fo life.

:eek: I assumed he had retired by now, that must be the best part of 15 years ago!

[EalingGreen]

Darren Kelly. He IS eligible as Norhtern born players can play for the Republic. Remember Alan Kerneghan?

It is more accurate to say that merely being born in NI does not automatically disqualify someone from representing the ROI: there are still other criteria which need to be met (although anyone born in NI would usually meet them).

As for Kernaghan, he was unlucky to fall between two stools. Although brought up in NI, he was actually born in England, as were his parents. He did not qualify for NI EITHER because he only had a grandparent from NI, which the IFA used not to recognise at the time as sufficient, OR he had a grandparent from the ROI. (I can't remember which)
Anyhow, the FAI didn't mind either way, so gave him the chance to play international football, which is fair enough, imo.
As it happens, though, he was a product of NI youth football and played for NI schools. This, however, is because it is a FIFA rule that boys must play for the country in whose jurisdiction they are receiving their education, not where they come from. Therefore, he would not have been allowed to play for England schools, or the ROI schoolboy team.
Similarly, Ryan Giggs, who went to school in Manchester, wasn't allowed to play for Wales schoolboy side, so played for England schools instead. However, he "reverted" to Wales as soon as he left school.
I think there was a young lad from the ROI very recently who actually played for NI schools, since he went to school across the border (as a boarder, maybe?).
Anyhow, the two Schoolboy Associations agreed this one amicably.

As for Darren Kelly, apparently he does want to play for NI, but I can't see him getting in ahead of Hughes, Craigan, Duff, Baird, Evans or even Murdock (Rotherham) or McAuley (Leicester), all of whom are centre backs, or have played there a lot.

[higgins]

Owen Heary is good enough...

Theres no leaders on the Irish team.

[adamcarr]

:eek: I assumed he had retired by now, that must be the best part of 15 years ago!

No, still playing with Cork City. He got a cracker in the Champions league this season actually. Have a look: http://www.corktrophycentre.com/highlights/apollon120706.zip

[Soper]

Could somebody please explain this continual debate. The best players get to play in the better leagues. They get payed more money because their better. They are watched by much better minds in soccer than on this board to see if they are good enough. They are given trials to see if they are good enough. If they are good enough they will be given a chance because soccer is a business and anything that can make a good thing better is jumped at. There are lots of scouts in Ireland and feck all EL players are asked to play at a higher level and when they do , most fail and come back here to play for little money.
In America, players who cant make the NBA play in little european leagues, In baseball they go to Japan.In soccer in the US its all retired players and wannabees.

Its always the same. We have some players in the Irish team that SHOULD be playing in the EL but none in the EL that should be playing in the national team. I think the question here should be are some of the Irish players only good enough for EL not the other way round


Loyalty makes people blind to reality.

I really thought Mayo could win this years all ireland....that about sums it up.
Wrong Wrong Wrong.Read this thread over again.And read the one in the Eircom League section titled 'De Gaffor and de fai's insult to players'.

[Frankfurt Hoop]

Could somebody please explain this continual debate. The best players get to play in the better leagues. They get payed more money because their better. They are watched by much better minds in soccer than on this board to see if they are good enough. They are given trials to see if they are good enough. If they are good enough they will be given a chance because soccer is a business and anything that can make a good thing better is jumped at. There are lots of scouts in Ireland and feck all EL players are asked to play at a higher level and when they do , most fail and come back here to play for little money.
In America, players who cant make the NBA play in little european leagues, In baseball they go to Japan.In soccer in the US its all retired players and wannabees.

Its always the same. We have some players in the Irish team that SHOULD be playing in the EL but none in the EL that should be playing in the national team. I think the question here should be are some of the Irish players only good enough for EL not the other way round


Loyalty makes people blind to reality.

I really thought Mayo could win this years all ireland....that about sums it up.

There are loads of reasons why certain players don't prosper when playing in foreign countries. The Eircom League, this season, is ranked three places higher than the national team by UEFA, and that's before this week's performances have been factored in.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Barry Ryan, Owen Heary, Jason Gavin, Joe Gamble, Ciaran Martyn and Roy O'Donovan are the only players I think should be in the squad.

[Qwerty]

Well one thing the eL players mentioned would play with heart and run themselves into the ground and wouldn't sleepwalk through games like O'Shea, Harte, Keane, Duff, et al.

Given is really great, it's as if every game was his last. It sems that for most of the others the more caps they win, the worse they play. I say shake it up and bring in some hungry players.

[cheifo]

Players from countries like Denmark, Norway &Sweden sometimes return to clubs in their native countries after failing to settle in England and yet do a job for their national team.

[ainsie]

I admire the EL players, week in week out they go out there with bad facilities, horrible weather, low pay , bad support, no glory except for the odd first or second round of euro action. I admire the hunger for the game and I do agree that that a team of EL players would have put up a better fight last saturday.
But hunger and fighting spirit do not win the day. You have to have both skill and passion to win and play at the hightest level.
Whilst its great to be able to watch the EL teams in the Euro competitions its always an early exit because teams from Slovackia, France etc are just that much better than them. If an EL team were to play say Cardiff tomorrow and there was a gun at your head to bet your house on who would win, would you bet on Shelbourne???
I'll give you this there might be an exception or two and some undiscovered player waiting to burst on to the higher level , doyle for instance, but in general most EL players have found their level.

Someone mentioned that the league is higher that the national team, but lets compare apples to apples here, if thats your logic then the Irish womens team are rated as high as the men too...

Must go and look at thread I was asked to look at..

[ainsie]

ok I read about Stans insult to Eircom League. I agree maybe he did insult them. But I think the point is missed.There are a few players on the squad that should not be there and should not play i.e. Morrison and O brien and maybe an Eircom league player would have done better but the fact is they are better than what?? IMO they are both not good enough and just because one player is better than whats on offer does not mean that player is good enough to be on the team.
The fact of the matter is Stan did not use what he had correctly on Saturday , he has better players that whats on offer in the EL but refused to use them.

Given
Kenny
Finnan
Carr
Dunne
Mc Shane
St Ledger
O Shea
Harte
Kelly
Duff
Mcgeady
Reid A
Reid S
Mc Phail
Carsley
Douglas
Kilban
Doyle
Keane

Who do you drop for an EL Player. And lets not loyalty rule the brain. A bad game a lack of passion or playing out of place because of bad management does not make a bad player

[Billsthoughts]

I dunno bout outfield players but a goalkeeper should have been called up instead of henderson. he isnt playing regularly and thats important for a keeper. and it showed on wed.

[ainsie]

I agree on the keeper, but I believe that our first two choices are good enough. Kenny's display saturday was a result of the general performance and lack of communication and good management. It was the diplay by the defence as a whole that was the problem and Kenny was just a part of that.
He was hung out to dry too many times and except for that headed goal where he should have got something on it , it was not his fault.
There might also be a case for a forward but the same case could be made for Lee Trundle whos scores lots of goals in League 1 (except for the injuries this year). He wants to play for Ireland but has never proved him self at the top level. I know Morrison and Lee have not either but thats why I say there might be a case for a forward.

[adamcarr]

Given
Kenny
Henderson Mick Devine
Finnan
Carr
Dunne
Mc Shane
St Ledger Alan Bennett
O Shea Joe Gamble
Harte Danny Murphy
Kelly Owen Heary
Duff
Mcgeady
Reid A
Reid S
Mc Phail
Carsley
Douglas
Kilban
Doyle
Keane

Who do you drop for an EL Player. And lets not loyalty rule the brain. A bad game a lack of passion or playing out of place because of bad management does not make a bad player

There ya go!

[eirebhoy]

I'd have Harte over Murphy and O'Shea would be a star player in the EL. Other than that I couldn't argue too much but the chances of those players getting a game are slim.

[joema]

So that's why you put the word 'Irishman' in bold when comparing Bennett to O'Brien. Livehead1 was spot on in identifying the little islander mindset typified by your posts in this thread as being the major turn-off of this forum. Why do you and others like you have so much difficulty in understanding the concept of having an attachment to more than one country? Just because you only have roots in one nation doesn't mean that those who don't have to conform to your all-or-nothing mentality. Not to mention the fact that footballers have to choose the country they play for at a relatively young age; I think if someone in a situation like this has difficulty choosing which side of their cultural and genetic inheritence to plump for it's more an indication of thoughtfulness than a mercenary nature.

I put it in bold because I dont see a player who represented England as being an Irishman, because O'Brien represented England I dont believe he cares about Ireland as much as some of the other players do

"Why do you and others like you have so much difficulty in understanding the concept of having an attachment to more than one country?"

Believe me I do understand the concept of having a connection to more than one country, I honestly do but I really am dissapointed by the fact that O'Brien played for England, its as simple as that, thats how I feel, end of story

"little islander mindset"

Have a look at my other posts and see if I have a "little islander mindset", this is just my opinion on this particular subject.

Also I dont think you understand what I mean by Irishman - and Irishman is not simply someone who was born and rared in Ireland it is someone who feels Irish - e.g Kevin Kilbane, Mick McCarthy, Chris Hughton... I dont regard Bennet as an Irishman simply becasue he was born here. In short I dont see O'Brien as being as Irish as the likes of Bennett or Kilbane


O'Brien was really highly rated as a youngster and was a regular in the Bradford team at the age of 17. After a couple of seasons in the premiership with Bradford Newcastle paid £2m for him. If he cared that much about England he would have accepted the 2nd call up to the U21s. If he was good enough to be 1st choice centre half for the England U21s at the age of 20 it's impossible to predict that he'd be a poor player now. :)

Fair enough, howver I still feel the same way towards O'Brien - if he really is a true Irishaman why did he represent England???


JOE GAMBLE FAILED TO HACK IT IN ENGLAND AND COULDN'T GET HIS GAME WITH BARNET

It would be handy if you knew what you were talking about, he was only at Barnet on loan and actually played very well for them. And so what if he "failed" in England? Roy Keane was told he was too small, Denis Bergkamp was rejected, Eric Cantona was deemed not good enough for Sheffield Wednesday ffs. Just becasue it didnt work out for him in England does not mean he is not good enough as these cases prove

[superfrank]

adamcarr, are you actually mad??

There is no way Danny Murphy is better then Ian Harte.

As for O'Shea, I heard, don't know if it's true, that he played in the eircom league when he was at Waterford. I believe your man said he was 15 at the time and Waterford were in the First but supposedly he did very well. If true, surely that's evidence that he would be a star in the el as eirebhoy suggested. Remember, I don't know if that was actually true.

[Soper]

Harte is rubbish defensively.Remember him getting skinned in the fa cup by then League 1 Cardiff, not to mention in the Premiersh!t.

[adamcarr]

adamcarr, are you actually mad??

There is no way Danny Murphy is better then Ian Harte.




Danny is a better player defensively than Harte and although Harte is good going forward Id still throw Danny ahead of him.

[ainsie]

Originally Posted by ainsie
Given
Kenny
Henderson Mick Devine
Finnan
Carr
Dunne
Mc Shane
St Ledger Alan Bennett
O Shea Joe Gamble
Harte Danny Murphy
Kelly Owen Heary
Duff
Mcgeady
Reid A
Reid S
Mc Phail
Carsley
Douglas
Kilban
Doyle
Keane

Its all about who you play against week in week out.
BTW I did not have Henderson in my post so adding Mick Devine is fine as on the rare occasion ( I hope) that we need 3rd choice, stick anyone in there.
St Ledger is constandly getting man of the match for his team and plays at a higher level than EL so I'd pick him.
I'm not a utd fan but O shea if he ever gets his concentration together will be a fine player and except for that one stupid switch off against the Chech's he had a very good game and showed what he can do and its better than what I have seen in the EL. I dont think ferguson is that bad a judge and dont think Gamble would get a regular start in EPL.
Harte plays in what is one of the top two leagues in the world IMO and what you learn there qualifies you slightly better for playing internationals than your weekly grind in the EL. Yes hes slow, but so was Stan when he played.
Kelly is young, he played a good game the other night, but then again all being fit hes third choice anyhow for now until he matures.

I dont know is the point? , that EL players could make up the training spots on the team . Maybe they have the skill, the passion, but to suddenly slot in a a higher level when week in week out your playing far lesser players except for the odd euro game , I dont think so. Maybe if they move to the EPL( and if there good enough for internationals they should be able to play there or at least the championship) they will get international games. But do you really think their playing in the EL for loyalty? Or would they like to treble their wages and move or maybe the people who decide these things have decided they are only superstars in their own League.

[Soper]

I wish Irish football fans had the loyalty that rugby fans have, in standing by players that stay here instead of ones that are playing abroad.It would be lovely if Fifa brought in a rule where a certain number of players in the national team had to be domestically based, maybe then people would care.

[tetsujin1979]

I wish Irish football fans had the loyalty that rugby fans have, in standing by players that stay here instead of ones that are playing abroad.It would be lovely if Fifa brought in a rule where a certain number of players in the national team had to be domestically based, maybe then people would care.

As has been pointed out before, I believe this would actually be a bad thing, players would be getting into the squad because they have to, not because they have proven they are worth their place

[Soper]

Yes, but it would also force the fai, and sponsors, to invest properly in domestic football

Also, younger players stuck in leagues like league 1 in england, might come 'home' and play at a better level if it meant they had more of a chance to play for their country.

[eirebhoy]

Harte is rubbish defensively.Remember him getting skinned in the fa cup by then League 1 Cardiff, not to mention in the Premiersh!t.
If I'm not mistaking Harte was voted into the premiership team of the season twice. He can't be that bad defensively.

[Soper]

It is the general view that he is defensively shocking, not just mine.

[eirebhoy]

It is the general view that he is defensively shocking, not just mine.
Shocking? I think that's a bit ott. He's our only left back playing at the highest level and imo should be first choice. If Harte is defensively shocking then I'd love to know your view on O'Shea. :)

[Stuttgart88]

I wish Irish football fans had the loyalty that rugby fans have, in standing by players that stay here instead of ones that are playing abroad.
How on earth is this an issue about fans' loyalty? I don't think irish fans discriminate against someone like Geordan Murphy, for example, because he plays in England.

I think that rugby is a model we could look to copy as it'd be fantastic if we could keep our very best players at home & also by concentrating the talent into a smaller number of teams. But it's got nothing to do with fans' loyalty.

The rugby model is dependent on a degree of cross border competition, week-in week-out by the Magners league and more substantially by the Heineken Cup. Also, the financial difference between staying at home and playing for a provincial side or going to England is presumably not much of a factor. The pickings in Engish rugby are nowhere near as big as in football.

Also, the international rugby authorities have easily facilitated the thriving provincial teams by (a) allowing cross border competition and (b) allowing the provinces to enter what are essentially club competitions.

[Kingdom]

As for O'Shea, I heard, don't know if it's true, that he played in the eircom league when he was at Waterford. I believe your man said he was 15 at the time and Waterford were in the First but supposedly he did very well. If true, surely that's evidence that he would be a star in the el as eirebhoy suggested. Remember, I don't know if that was actually true.

I also heard that he was having relations with a well known former Pop Idoler who isn't a woman. If true, surely that's evidence as to why he's afraid to tackle and when he runs his hands are glued to his hips. Remember I don't know if thats actually true.

[Kingdom]

^^^
Re: Post above apologies. I'll try to add a sensible comment. I believe there is space for a few eL players in the squad. Particularily in the back line. In a squad of 23 players there has to be one or two players deserving of a callup. Surely Murray off Cork is worth a go, I've seen half a dozen times and he's always impressed me. Given the dearth of options we have there would be no loss in giving it a go. Same with the goalkeeping options. Henderson is not good enough I don't care what anyone says. His kicking is abysmal for a PROFESSIONAL. There has to be one keeper in the league who could do a job even if its just as backup. When you think about it, are the players who ply their trade in League 1 playing at a higher level than those who are playing in the eL? I don't think so. They way I look at it is the League 1 is just as big a backwater as our own , probably more so. The lads playing 3rd tier over there are just as much in the shop window as the 1st tier guys here. There were a lot of players in my age group in schoolboys (Murphy, Barrett) who weren't the best players on their team, never mind their age who went to England and in effect became journeymen. I'm of the opinion now that these are the guys who should be completing some sort of education here, on a scholarship with an eL club and bolstering our own league, rather than be peddled amonst the big boys over the water.

Given
Kenny
Murphy (

Finnan
Heary
Dunne
Mc Shane
Dan Murray
Andy O'Brien
Kilbane
Harte

Duff
Mcgeady
Reid A
Reid S
Carsley
Douglas
Joe Gamble/Kevin Deery

Doyle
Keane
Byrne/Farren?
Long/Stokes?

[superfrank]

Danny is a better player defensively than Harte and although Harte is good going forward Id still throw Danny ahead of him.
Yeah, you would but I'd say the other 99 out of 100 would have Ian Harte in there.

Ian Harte's the better player.

[galwayhoop]

in the SPL each team is required to have 2 players (i think it is 2 but maybe 3) who are under 21 in their match day squad. something along these lines the FAI could introduce would be to require 2 or 3 home based players being included in the 23 strong international squad.

before everyone lunges at me...... i know it would be slightly unfair on the boys wearing no's 21 - 23 in our current squads but how likely are these lads of getting a run in the team barr a massive spate of injuries (e.g. henderson in last game). outside our starting 11 and 4 or 5 players in reserve i really don't see much difference between eL and the rest of the squad members. people are getting bogged down in this debate about those players who start regulary or occasionally (e.g. o'brien) but the real debate should be about the so-called squad-fillers (e.g. st. ledger). a great comparison is henderson v devine. did henderson do anything that devine couldn't of done and also if devine had been in the squad what a massive boost the eL would of got

the advantages of calling up the 2 or 3 players would be 2 fold. raise the profile of the eL and players in it and also use it as an academy style system for the elite players in the eL.