View Full Version : Ryanair our new National carrier?
Clifford
05/10/2006, 12:50 PM
About time too.
Anyone invest in the 10,000 EI shares last week and now selling off at a huge profit???????????
Go on Mick, that really hit the Govt in the gonads.
Lionel Ritchie
05/10/2006, 12:53 PM
Won't happen. You can't compare a national carrier block or whatever he's calling it in Ireland with the precedents he's claiming exist in Germany and France.
Clifford
05/10/2006, 12:57 PM
But will he prob get a majority in it all the same?
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 12:58 PM
Competition my orifice.
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 1:00 PM
Competition my orifice.
There was a competition. It appears Mr. O'Leary has won :o
I don't mind Ryanair, I think they have done a lot of good for the air travelling consumer. Although I don't like the mad scrambles at check-in and at the gate on Ryanair, prices have come down and new routes have been openned (across all airlines).
However, this has only happenned because of competition, so I am highly sceptical about this potential takeover for two reasons:
1. the danger of a Ryanair monopoly (whatever M O'Leary says about maintaining the Aer Lingus brand);
2. the possible loss of service (e.g. asigned seating) on Aer Lingus.
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 1:16 PM
There was a competition. It appears Mr. O'Leary has won :o
Easy to win when you've got your own equivelant of Alan Kelly refereeing. :p
Clifford
05/10/2006, 1:18 PM
50 euro each way to Vegas change your mind if your seat is or isn't allocated?
By the way I agree entirely with your post crc.
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 1:22 PM
50 euro each way to Vegas change your mind if your seat is or isn't allocated?
All well and good but the plane will most probably land in Roswell with you having to bus the rest of the way :p
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 1:28 PM
All well and good but the plane will most probably land in Roswell with you having to bus the rest of the way :p
:D Very good.
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 1:33 PM
:D Very good.
See I'm not all about fighting over pipelines and racism :p :o
B&I privatisation resulted in the Irish Ferries situation. The Government are now in the process of letting the same thing happen to our national airline.
So 140 million for the Government, Irish workers losing terms and conditions, Irish consumers losing competition, and Bertie's stockbroker mates cleaning up on both advice fees and commission.
Clifford
05/10/2006, 1:35 PM
All well and good but the plane will most probably land in Roswell with you having to bus the rest of the way :p
:D :D outstanding. Probably bring you to Vegas and call it Dallas. Nice work
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 1:37 PM
B&I privatisation resulted in the Irish Ferries situation. The Government are now in the process of letting the same thing happen to our national airline.
So 140 million for the Government, Irish workers losing terms and conditions, Irish consumers losing competition, and Bertie's stockbroker mates cleaning up on both advice fees and commission.
Fully Endorsed (to use Bohs forum terminology...FACT!)
WeAreRovers
05/10/2006, 2:13 PM
Very, very funny stuff - the greedy Aer Lingus unions are now in bed with a man who doesn't recognise unions. And it's all the governments fault (and the unions of course).
Fair play to O'Leary, another privitisation messed up in spectacular fashion and you have to hand it to him that he's taken full advantage.
It might be bad news for the consumer but you can blame the champions of so-called competition in the FF and the PDs for that.
KOH
Not too many state assets left war, so I wouldn't be laughing too hard just yet...
Bit harsh to blame all the unions. IMPACT pilots were the only one's who didn't oppose the sale (or foresee this very turnout). Kinda ironic for them given the fight for recognition in Ryanair by their existing pilots, and they're terrible working conditions. Still, they reap what they sow.
tetsujin1979
05/10/2006, 3:06 PM
Anyone else just think it's another attempt at publicity and getting some free advertising for O'Leary? This is the man who commented at his wedding that his bride must have come on aer lingus when she was late!
I don't think O'Leary is uising Ryanair money as publicity stunt as he has bought 16% when 5% would be good enough for a stunt.
I think Ryanair have been good for irish aviation but buying AL would be very bad for competition.
I don't believe AL has been a National carrier for some time now as they have no internal irish service when Ryanair at least service Dublin-Cork. I suspect Ryanair now also serves more direct route out of Ireland than Aer Lingus. AL can not really be described as full service airline anymore.
I think the service on AL is probably better but not by much so depends on the price when i am spending my own money. Had to travel to scandanavia recently for work so not paying for. AL had no service at all & had to go via heathrow with SAS. Heard now Ryanair will shortly be offering direct service to Oslo & eventhough i would not be paying would definitely prefer direct flight on cheaper budget airline than indirect with full service better quality airline.
If Ryanair achieve a significant shareholding in AL will be massive embarishment to the government as will result in eircom failures resurfacing & will definitely cost votes in next election.
pineapple stu
05/10/2006, 7:21 PM
2. the possible loss of service (e.g. asigned seating) on Aer Lingus.
I wonder would O'Leary take the view that there clearly is a market for the Aer Lingus style flight (i.e. assigned seat, meal, etc) and use this as a way into that niche? In other words, those people who don't like to fly Ryanair - and they are many and vociferous - could still fly "properly" by flying...Ryanair.
Competition law is the biggest load of nonsense going though. Just means that the fat cats can make a wad load more money off of the Joe Soap. And even then you have stupid deals to simulate competition like the ESB being forced to sell electricity to suppliers for cheap so they can sell it on at a price to undercut the ESB.
Where else but Europe...?
Pete - I hardly think having an internal service in a country as small as Ireland prcludes you from being a national service.
strangeirish
06/10/2006, 2:26 AM
Aer Lingus rejects Ryanair bid. Offer described as undervalued and opportunistic. Will he ante up?
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 8:21 AM
Michael O Leary? Opportunistic? I'm shocked. :eek:
;)
I can't see how Aer Lingus maintain this bid undervalues the airline. It is above the top end of the price range the government and the airline management was considering for the IPO 2.7 per share. They ended up going with the lower end price of 2.20.
Having said that I think from a competition point of view this isn't good. Two strong competing airlines has to be in the best interest of the consumer.
Fair play to O' Leary though. He is showing up the idiots in the government for making a complete botch of another privitisation. These guys couldn't run a small business properly let alone a country.:mad:
I wonder would O'Leary take the view that there clearly is a market for the Aer Lingus style flight (i.e. assigned seat, meal, etc) and use this as a way into that niche?
Aer Lingus only provide a meal on long-haul flights. On European flights you have to pay for your grub just like on Ryanair
(which is fine, I don't like airlie food anyway, so I'm glad I don't have to pay for it).
I have to say, I think you're right about there being a market for a bit of service on flights, its not all about price. After all, there is are cheap busses from Cork to Dublin, but people still fork out for the train (and the plane, and of course, their automobiles - all of which are more expensive and/or comfortable)
casso36
06/10/2006, 9:45 AM
You have too hand it to O'Leary, he does'nt give a flying s!!!
If he thinks he can get it he will. Thats what business is all
about and i admire him for it.
I don't agree this would be good for the airline passenger in this country but huge respect for O'Leary. In hindsight its amazing no one saw this coming.
- Have to laugh that AL & the government say O'Leary is undervaluing the airline. If that was the case why did they "value" the airline at the IPO launch price?
- On Primetime last night the AL unions requested that the governement buy back the shares off O'Leary. How deluded are there people? :eek: Its very likely that AL employees are selling their shares to O'Leary at a nice profit as they supposed to have 60k each on average.
- If the government hadn't taken so long to make a decision on Dublin airport ot allowed a 2nd airport to be build maybe we would have more airlines flying in here so Ryanair & AL would have smaller share?
This can only be seen a massive governement failure again & with an election in the next 12 months will surely only remind people of the eirocom fiasco.
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 11:46 AM
O Leary is a parasite. Ryanair is a major beficiary of government grants (welfare for the rich). He never seemed to mention this when he went on about Aer Lingus's government funding.
O Leary is a parasite. Ryanair is a major beficiary of government grants (welfare for the rich). He never seemed to mention this when he went on about Aer Lingus's government funding.
All companies (big & small) get grants of some form or other. I fail to see what such a comment brings to the debate.
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 1:28 PM
It brings about as much to the discussion as the declarations of praise being dished out by other posters.
My point is that O Leary gets praised for singlehandedly maing Ryanair a success when along with his draconian labour relations he recieves a fair chunk of taxpayer money and then moans if the (ex) State Company gets it.
My point is that O Leary gets praised for singlehandedly maing Ryanair a success when along with his draconian labour relations he recieves a fair chunk of taxpayer money and then moans if the (ex) State Company gets it.
Please describe the nature of this money & the value of.
Ryanair is the most successful irish company. It carries 5 times the passenger number of AL.
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 2:10 PM
Please describe the nature of this money & the value of.
Ryanair is the most successful irish company. It carries 5 times the passenger number of AL.
OK but it will take me a while to research. I'll get back to you.
Off the top of my head I know they recieve something like 200 per person they fly into Knock airport.
Off the top of my head I know they recieve something like 200 per person they fly into Knock airport.
I believe that is a government tender that any airline could apply for. Aer Arann is the main airline that benefits from that on internal irish routes. I am not sure if it is also paid for external flights but i assume so.
BohsPartisan
07/10/2006, 3:18 PM
I'm not saying Ryanair are the only ones getting it, I am just pointing out O Leary's hypocricy.
I'm not saying Ryanair are the only ones getting it, I am just pointing out O Leary's hypocricy.
I think there is a difference between 500m cash gift/donation from proceeds of AL sale going into AL bank account than givernment grant for provide a service that marketplace would not otherwise provide.
The government own 28% & the employees own another 12%. Ryanair need another 30% from the other remaining 40% left to gain control.
The government have made a massive cockup in undervaluing the IPO. How can a 2.20 IPO now be worth 2.90+. Looking at 1/3 increase in 1 week which means the 60% the state sold off undervalued by 200-300m.
:rolleyes:
In hindsight its amazing no one saw this coming.
They did - it was flagged by SIPTU. What is amazing that the Government persist with the lie that they had no option, despite SIPTU having it writing from the EU that there was nothing to stop the Government investing the 170 raised.
On Primetime last night the AL unions requested that the governement buy back the shares off O'Leary. How deluded are there people?
Well it's something the Government could do to block it. May not be politically expedient to do so, but it is something that could be done to increase the non ryanair stack, rather than Government talk about being against it.
This can only be seen a massive governement failure again & with an election in the next 12 months will surely only remind people of the eirocom fiasco.
Whatever way you look at it's been a disaster. Even if you support privatisation, the current share price show's the Government massively undervalued the company. This can only have been to the benefit of their IFSC friends, and was certainly to the detriment of the taxpayer. As for eircom, sure last week we saw another consequence of that with the handling of the Smart debacle.
It is clear that Privatisation simply doesn't work in such a small market as this. The tax payer most certainly doesn't benefit - either via undervalued flotations; private monopolies replacing public ones; price increases that soft regulators wave through with no conditions necessary...
BohsPartisan
09/10/2006, 8:14 AM
They did - it was flagged by SIPTU. What is amazing that the Government persist with the lie that they had no option, despite SIPTU having it writing from the EU that there was nothing to stop the Government investing the 170 raised.
Yeah, Joe Higgins and Clare Daly were blue in the face pointing this out too.
Whatever way you look at it's been a disaster. Even if you support privatisation, the current share price show's the Government massively undervalued the company.
As someone who favours privatisation i have to agree. You have to wonder what the government advisers got paid 30m for. Certainly when the company so undervalued can hardly say the advisers were under-writing the IPO.
There is no way the government should waste any money on buying shares at infalted price off Ryanair. I hear the unions may buy up extra shares themselves & if they want to do that then i have no problem with.
dahamsta
09/10/2006, 4:27 PM
As someone who favours privatisation i have to agree. You have to wonder what the government advisers got paid 30m for.Is that a rhetorical question? :D
There is no way the government should waste any money on buying shares at infalted price off Ryanair.For once on a business/economy issue, I agree with you.
adam
There is no way the government should waste any money on buying shares at infalted price off Ryanair.
A case of shutting the stable door, after they've dragged the horse out kicking and screaming. However, the main point is that this is something they could do, if they are genuinely concerned about Ryanair taking over. Put up or shut up and take the political fall out.
I know it's their trade, even a FF tradition, but the blatant lies and mistruths that Government Ministers are coming out with is ridiculous. Saying it was illegal for them to invest, then later in the same discussions saying did people want the Government to put in 2bn. Either they were allowed or they weren't, either the company needed 170m or 2bn. Liars.
dahamsta
10/10/2006, 7:19 AM
Gov.ie's in a right pickle here whether or which, particularly with the loudmouth gobsheen himself involved. If this goes to the Competition Commission or the CAA, guess who'll be shouting about a 25% conflict of interest? That 'discussion' will be interesting to say the least...
Perhaps the relevant regulatory bodies could cram something into O'Leary's mouth for the relevant time? It's a big mouth, but I'm pretty sure there's enough Ryanair complainants out there to fill the biggest hole in the world (http://verbo.se/notablog/the-biggest-hole-in-the-world/), which is roughly the same size.
adam
BohsPartisan
10/10/2006, 7:51 AM
This reminds me a bit of the film Wall Street. Gordon Gecko trying to buy the airline Martin Sheen was wporking for so he could strip its assets and make a fortune.
Whatever happens with this O Leary wins. Because of his big talk about a buy out, the share price will increase so even if he is finally bought out he stands to make about 20 million on this. Now think about that for a second. This is a company that has been built up with taxpayer money I.E. our money, our parents money and our grandparents money, along with years of labour from workers in Aer Lingus. O Leary comes in, buys a load of shares, shoots his mouth off, sells them a few weeks later and makes millions on it. There in a nutshell you have the reality of privatisation of state assets in particular and the nature of the capitalist beast in general.
Now think about that for a second. This is a company that has been built up with taxpayer money I.E. our money, our parents money and our grandparents money, along with years of labour from workers in Aer Lingus.
Aer Lingus was run for the employees benefit for years & has cost this state a fortune to subsidise. They are making profits now but the state has still susidised the redundencies & pension fund whole in the last 5 years.
They are making profits now but the state has still susidised the redundencies & pension fund whole in the last 5 years.
Yeah, sell when they're making pay back. :rolleyes: It never ceases to amaze me the arguement to sell now it's profitable, rather than the income going back to the exchequer or to be reinvested.
The hole in the pension fund is down to mismanagement of that fund, for which the state has to take responsibility for. Probably was allowed to build up on the basis it was a state company anyway. Kinda irrelevant anyway, as the state didn't fill the whole in the pension fund, it used funds raised by the floatation to do it, so no subsidy there.
All redundancies are subsidised to a minimum level - it's part of your PRSI contributions (hence Irish ferries claiming back millions on this basis).
Clifford
13/04/2007, 9:30 AM
Can't wait....
Ryanair transatlantic fares could cost €10
By Sean McCαrthaigh and Geoff Percival
RYANAIR chief executive Michael O’Leary confirmed yesterday that the low-fares airline is looking to start a separate transatlantic service within the next three years, which could offer fares as low as €10 per person.
Mr O’Leary said that the new service would operate a “hybrid” business model which would see 60% of seating devoted to economy class and 40% at a premium service. The premium service — which would include flat-bed style seating, showers and luxury lounges — will probably cost around €5,000 per return ticket.
A big take-up of premium tickets will allow the company charge as little as €10 each way for its economy class tickets.
Mr O’Leary said that the premium offering would be “way ahead of anything the likes of British Airways or Aer Lingus are currently offering” and described the thinking behind the concept as being “very Ryanair”.
The new service will not come into operation until either 2009 or 2010 at the earliest, or until there is a discernible downturn in the price of aircraft. Mr O’Leary said that average prices for aircraft are currently around 50% higher than will be the case when Ryanair is looking to buy.
The company will invest in a fleet of between 40 and 50 aircraft from either Boeing (787s) or Airbus (A350s) and will base up to five aircraft at its larger hubs around Europe, such as Dublin, Stansted, Beauvais and Frankfurt-Hahn.
The new entity will have its own board of directors and be run as a separate business to Ryanair. It will probably include the Ryan family name in its title, but will not be called Ryanair.
The head office will be based in Europe, but probably not in Dublin. It will be funded through the issuing of around €200 million in share capital with the purchase of aircraft funded by private borrowings and sale and leaseback arrangements.
In terms of destinations, it will follow the traditional Ryanair model of flying to secondary airports in major cities. The company is currently eyeing up nine US cities as maiden destinations — New York, Boston, Florida, Dallas, Denver, Los Angeles, San Diego, Las Vegas and San Francisco.
Ryanair, meanwhile, also announced four new routes from its bases in Frankfurt and Marseille. Faro in Portugal and Marrakech and Fez in Morocco will be the destinations from Frankfurt while the new flights from Marseilles will go to Bournemouth. There will also be increased flight frequencies on existing routes from Stansted, Barcelona, Liverpool, Pisa and East Midlands.
Seems to be a big departure from the Ryanair model & don't know if will get people to pay 5k for transatlantic flight.
There is little difference between Aer Lingus now except for the fact AL still dearer. Have to laugh at the current complaints about assigned seating & baggage charges. If you want to bring large bag & have assigned seat you pay for & if you don't then don't pay. I prefer these charges then seeing the base prices increasing. I would pick Al if the flight time was better & price competitive otherwise I see no point.
The funniest thing in airports is watching people queue for Ryanair flights for 30 minutes as if there won't be enough seats. Also if assigned seat important why not pay a few euro so no standing. :rolleyes:
Clifford
13/04/2007, 11:40 AM
Can't disagree with any of that Pete, it does make me laugh seeing the queue develop as you say as if they will run out of seats.
Hat's off to them if they make a go of the US stuff, I'd be well up for it. The people who spend 2,000 or more already to go there may not be willing or able to go up to 5,000. But for a shower it might be worth it, ha ha.
Risteard
13/04/2007, 11:45 AM
40% of passengers first class is a lot.
The space required for those beds would take up 2/3 of the aircraft.
So you'll have 60% of the passengers crammed into about 30-33% of the passenger space.
Even putting aside any expecations of comfort or customer service, I'd say regulations might be stringent on something like that.
dahamsta
16/04/2007, 7:31 PM
I can see people paying 5k for a flight, just not one with Ryanair on the side.
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