Bohemians' millions [Archive]

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Stuttgart88

11/09/2006, 11:06 AM

Anyone got any thoughts on how this could impact the national game as a whole?

I'm putting this in the Ireland International section as my main angle of enquiry is to ask if people think the Bohemians windfall could lead to any or all of the following:

Stronger domestic league
Better facilities
Better crowds
Better investment
Better money for better players
Better players staying at home
At least one fully functional academy
Any scope for other clubs to "cash in" on their real estate assets
Stronger representative sides in due course due to any of the above

I wonder how the Kilcoynes feel?

Emmet

11/09/2006, 11:39 AM

I don't really follow the Eircome League but really the best thing for the league as a whole, and Irish football as a consequence, has to be to get a team into the Champions League. I'm sure there are better qualified people here than me ... is that a realistic goal for say the next five years?

Billsthoughts

11/09/2006, 11:39 AM

they will probably just **** the money away on players and wages.
wasnt the FAI supposed to set up an academy?
I dont understand the "have to get to the champions league group stage" mentality.
I dont see how getting hammered by the likes of chelsea and man u would do the leagues profile any good.did it do anything for shelbournes attendances when they went on their run a couple a years back?
we deffo need to move away from sending all our best plyers to england at a young age.
there just wont be the oppurtunities there used to be with all the foreign players in the premiership.

Emmet

11/09/2006, 11:48 AM

I dont understand the "have to get to the champions league group stage" mentality.

Well ... it's got something to do with money and attracting good quality players!! You'll find that every single club team in Europe with any serious ambition wants to get there - it is a measure of a team's / league's quality

Peadar

11/09/2006, 11:55 AM

they will probably just **** the money away on players and wages.

By the time Bohs get the money, they will be signing players for a league with a 65% of turnover wages cap. Even if they include the money in their turnover for one year and pay huge wages, they will need to have a vastly improved turnover in order to maintain those wages.

For the league, I think the improved facilities will be the greatest benefit.
This year, drogs had to play their UEFA Cup games in Dalymount because their ground doesn't meet UEFA requirements.
Derry have to play their games in front of a greatly reduced capacity crowd, in order to satisfy UEFA requirements. The alternative was to move to Lansdowne or Windsor.
Cork City FC have a capacity of 5,000 due to redevelopment work at Turners Cross. Had we progressed in the Champions League, we'd have had to move to Lansdowne Road. It's very unfortunate that we don't have any ground in the league suitable for large crowds in UEFA competitions.

What is very significant about our participation in Europe this season, is the progress we've made in terms of rankings. We've moved up 5 places and as a result, the League winners will be seeded in the CL qualifiers next year.

It's progress like this which will bring us closer to the group stages, not the 40 odd million windfall of one club.

Billsthoughts

11/09/2006, 11:55 AM

would get money alrite but a couple of bad beatings (and we are talking the best teams in europe here) wouldnt really do the league any good in terms of trying to promote it to the casual fan here in my opinion. might be better off to try and get into uefa cup group stages. as for the "top quality players" I think you are applying factors which effect the top end of the premiership and not a small league in a small country.

livehead1

11/09/2006, 11:56 AM

Emmet

11/09/2006, 12:03 PM

Playing against the top teams will allow the players to learn and develop - both in terms of their skills and also in terms of their tactical awareness. It will raise the profile of the league and of the teams playng there which will make it easier to attract bigger name players. Attracting bigger name players will boost interest in the team locally and will create bigger attendences, more support etc. It would also encourage good young Irish players to stay rather than moving to England / Scotland. The team(s) will certainly get the odd hammering to begin with but as the players get more experience and become better players this will cease and things will get better. I understand what you're saying but I think that overall having a team playing in the CL regularly would be a massive boost for Irish football. It sounds as though the faciliaities need to be improved before this can happen but when it does happen I think it will make a big difference for football in Ireland.

SUB of the day

11/09/2006, 12:06 PM

As a City fan, I'm delighted for Bohs.If they are to become the Chelsea or Rosenberg of Irish football, so be it.By raising the bar domestically and in Europe, the gypsies have the opportunity to set the standard for other EL clubs to follow.I was in Dalymount the night they beat Glasgow Rangers, pride and passion in a real football atmosphere,where Bohs represented their club , city and country with such distinction .Such nights may again be imminent.A Dublin based club in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League would have the knockon effect of at least giving our exiles and young players an Irish option

pete

11/09/2006, 1:37 PM

People are obsessed with the CL but its a problem with event junkies.

Closed Account 2

11/09/2006, 1:46 PM

How many other European leagues have yet to have a member reach the group stages...?

Not 100% sure but so far I can think of :-

Wales, Iceland, Belarus, Cyprus, FYR Macedonia, Moldova, Bosnia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Northern Ireland, Albania, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbiajan, Kazakhstan and Uzbeckistan.

Billsthoughts

11/09/2006, 4:08 PM

Emmet

11/09/2006, 4:43 PM

Playing against the top teams will allow the players to learn and develop - both in terms of their skills and also in terms of their tactical awareness.THIS IS OVERLY SIMPLISTIC - 6 GAMES A YEAR IS NOT GOING TO MAKE THEM BETTER PLAYERS - ASSUMING THAT IRISH TEAMS WILL REGULARLY BE IN GROUP STAGES WHICH TO HAPPEN WOULD MEAN THEY WOULD HAVE TO GET A VERY FAVOURABLE DRAW IN THE 3RD ROUND EVERY YEAR

Playing in the CL would be hugely beneficial to the players ... do you really think playing against the like of Ronaldinho Kaka Messi Henry etc will have no effect on the players? It might only be for six games but the players will learn lots from those six games!!

It will raise the profile of the league WITH WHO???

With people outside of Ireland.

and of the teams playng there which will make it easier to attract bigger name players.WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY BIGGER NAME PLAYERS? REALISTICLY DO YOU EVER ENVISAGE A DAY WHEN HIGH PROFILE PLAYERS AT THEIR PEAK ARE GOING TO COME TO PLAY IN IRELAND JUST SO THEY CAN PLAY IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE? NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

Well that's just your opinion ... it is a known fact that players do choose to play for clubs on the strength of whether or not they will be in the CL. Rightly or wrongly they do make that choice. I'm not saying that if Bohemians had qualified this season then Ballack would have gone to them over Chelsea(!) - I am just saying that they will attract better players than they do presently. Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that this is Ireland so therefore we shouldn't have high expectations ... why can that sort of thing not be happening regularly within five - ten years' time? Aside from pessimists saying that it won't I mean!!

Attracting bigger name players will boost interest in the team locally and will create bigger attendences, more support etc.MAYBE TO A SMALL EXTENT BUT WE JUST DONT HAVE THE CULTURE OF REGULARLY ATTENDING SPORTING EVENTS IN THIS COUNTRY ON A WEEKLY BASIS

Again, why can that not change? Ireland has culturally been changing at a rate of knots over the last ten years - why is it not possible for this to change also?

It would also encourage good young Irish players to stay rather than moving to England / Scotland. THIS SHOULD BE ONE OF THE AIMS OF THE LEAGUE/FAI IN THIS COUNTRY

Well - players are motivated mainly by success and money (again, rightly or wrongly). Playing in the CL regularly would give them both to a certain degree. You are right though - it is also the responsibility of the FAI to an extent.

The team(s) will certainly get the odd hammering to begin with but as the players get more experience and become better players this will cease and things will get better. WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? TEAMS IN ENGLAND/SPAIN/ITALY/GERMANY and THE TOP TWO IN SCOTLAND HAVE VASTLY MORE RESOURCES THAN ANY IRISH TEAM AND THEY STRUGGLE TO COMPETE WITH THE TOP TIER IN EUROPE.

Again, low expectations. This does not need to be the way things are for ever ... I'm not saying that we'll have a team that will win the CL in ten years' time - I just think that it is very possible to have at least one club side that competes and holds its head there. Mention Spain England Germany etc by all means - but what about Turkey? What about the Ukraine? There are loads of economically poor countries who have one or two club sides who can compete in the CL and not be disgraced there. Seriously - why should Ireland be any different?

I understand what you're saying but I think that overall having a team playing in the CL regularly would be a massive boost for Irish football.IT WOULD BE GREAT ALRITE BUT IT SHOULDNT BE THE YARDSTICK BY WHICH TO JUDGE AN IRISH TEAMS SUCCESS - GETTING TO THIRD QUALIFING ROUND SHOULD BE DEEMED A SUCCESS BUT THEN YOU ARE GIVEN A POX OF A DRAW

You do get substantially more money for getting to the group stages and that is probably why most teams see the group stages as the main goal. I think that if we want to get better as a footballing country we need to expect a bit more and that means getting past the qualifying rounds and into the CL proper

pete

11/09/2006, 5:44 PM

I believe only twice in the history of the CL has a country outside the european top 20 had a representative in the Cl group stages.

If eL clubs can continue recent good progress moving from 39th to 35th could see the eL in 27-28th place in europe in a few years.

I sometimes think some people use non-CL football as an excuse not to support our National football league.

Dodge

11/09/2006, 7:10 PM

Personally hope no irish team other than pats reach the group stages of the CL. Will actively support any team they play in the ast prelim round

SUB of the day

11/09/2006, 8:57 PM

Personally hope no irish team other than pats reach the group stages of the CL. Will actively support any team they play in the ast prelim round

Tunnel vision? BIGGER picture? Rising Tide?....I suppose losing 10 nil in Europe leaves its scars.....

eirebhoy

12/09/2006, 12:15 AM

I have a feeling that the money Bohs are getting will only attract bigger investors into the likes of Shels or Cork. I can see clubs growing hugely within the next decade or so. What investor is going to throw �40m into Shels atm? Nobody. If/When Bohs do really improve and raise the profile of the league it'll become much more attractive for investors. Anderlecht were the whipping boys in Europe for the last 2 seasons but they can still attract decent quality.

Squad changes for 2006/2007 season

In:

* Argentina Lucas Biglia (from Independiente)
* Morocco/Netherlands Mbark Boussoufa (from Gent)
* Egypt Ahmed Hassan (from Beşiktaş)
* Argentina Christian Leiva (from Banfield)
* Argentina Nicol�s Pareja (from Argentinos Juniors)
* Belgium Davy Schollen (on loan from Breda)
* Democratic Republic of the Congo Mohammed Tchit� (from Standard Li�ge)
* Belgium Jelle Van Damme (from Werder Bremen via Southampton)

Out:

* Belgium Walter Baseggio (to Treviso)
* Ukraine Oleg Iachtchouk (to Ergotelis)
* Belgium Vincent Kompany (to Hamburger SV)
* Serbia Goran Lovr� (to Groningen)
* Belgium Gabriel N'Galula (to Standard Li�ge)
* France Gr�gory Pujol (back from loan to FC Nantes)
* Finland Hannu Tihinen (to FC Z�rich)
* Burkina Faso Lamine Traore (to Gen�lerbirliği)
* Sweden Christian Wilhelmsson (to FC Nantes)
* Sweden P�r Zetterberg (retires as player but enters the staff)
* Poland Michal Zewlakow (to Olympiacos)

macdermesser

12/09/2006, 7:19 AM

Personally hope no irish team other than pats reach the group stages of the CL. Will actively support any team they play in the ast prelim round

That is horsesh.it. At least the second part of the sentence "actively support"ing. I know that it would be difficult to stomach Shels doing well and the grin on Ollie Byrnes face ... but still would want them to well from a sporting sense.. and to shut up those voices saying the EL is useless etc etc

Stuttgart88

12/09/2006, 8:55 AM

It'd be nice if the Irish public had a Damascan conversion but it ain't going to happen.

CL or high-profile competitive fixtures against well known European sides can only attract more interest. Sure there's a degree of "event junkyism" but I also think that there's an innate yearning for outward recognition in the Irish, hence the euphoria surrounding the national team when they first started qualifying for tournaments. This may not matter to the hard-core loyal eL fans, but it does to those who are potential attendees. This is the only benchmark against which those who persist in their "eL is rubbish" stance can be made to think otherwise.

Through their travels to England, Scotland or wherever watching soccer, watching Ireland play away, or watching Irish rugby sides play abroad, Irish people now have a set minimum standard of facilities that they see as benchmarks. Most Irish soccer venues fall way short.

I think there's a substantial amount of Irish people who are simply sports fans and would regularly attend any event of a particular standard or size if it was available. However, admittedly having grown up in Sth Dublin, I probably fail to recognise just how deeply rooted the GAA is throughout the land and can only really speculate whether ther same applies elsewhere in Ireland.

What'd also help is if the Irish media collectively recognised and repeatedly commented upon just how morally bankrupt & anti-sport the Premiership has become. I'm also sick of reading syndicated match reports of British football in Irish papers barely mentioning the Irish that were in action. There's not ONE mention of Doyle's performance last night in the Irish Times, no mention of Shane Long coming off the bench or no mention of Richard Dunne.

gustavo

12/09/2006, 9:25 AM

.

there's an innate yearning for outward recognition in the Irish

If ya ask me its more like an inferiority complex whereby people cant accept anything as being any good unless its given a seal of approval by the UK . Happened with Father Ted , same thing with Aslan I remember Tony Fenton interviewing them saying he heard "This Is" beside Wonderwall and Bittersweet Symphony and put it to them that they should be successful in the UK

NeilMcD

12/09/2006, 10:16 AM

Aslan are rubbish full stop.

SUB of the day

12/09/2006, 10:21 AM

Agree completely with Stu '88......eg Shels struggle to get 1500 at EL games in Tolka.For a PRE qualifier V Deportivo 24,000 seats soldout at Lansdowne.Cork City brought 16,000 fans to the same venue for the final v Drogs....twice the capacity of Turners Cross.22,000 showed up for Rovers v Pats in the first match at the RDS.300,000 tuned in for the City v Derry league decider last November.Event junkies? maybe some.Remember the Munster rugby team couldn't fill Thomond till 2001....look at them now............Just read post, I sound like an anorak, but stats stand.

endabob1

12/09/2006, 10:38 AM

I'm also sick of reading syndicated match reports of British football in Irish papers barely mentioning the Irish that were in action. There's not ONE mention of Doyle's performance last night in the Irish Times, no mention of Shane Long coming off the bench or no mention of Richard Dunne.

That's because the Irish papers are too mean to send journalists over to games so they just lift the reports from a news agency or in the Indo's case they get it from the UK Independent news paper which they own.

NeilMcD

12/09/2006, 10:44 AM

New-found wealth a real challenge for Bohemians

Emmet Malone On Soccer: Given that few Irish clubs manage to generate even 20 per cent of their income from gate receipts, it's been tempting to view most of them as highly efficient fund-raising organisations that happen to field football teams.

The news last week, however, that Bohemians are set to sell their home of more than a century for some �65 million suggests that the most successful club of the next decade or so may simply be the one that best played the booming Dublin property market of the last few years.

The futures of Shelbourne and St Patrick's Athletic are also both closely tied up with the value of their respective homes in one way or another but the last of the capital's "big four", of course, have nothing to sell or redevelop given that Milltown was cashed in two decades ago. Many of those involved with Shamrock Rovers now were active opponents of the decision to move the club back then and how different, they must wonder, the last 19 years might have been if Keep Rovers At Milltown (KRAM) had been successful in its attempt to match a purchase price that is now estimated to have been a little short of �1.3 million.

The amount seems almost laughable these days, barely the price of a solitary semi-detached home in one of the city's more desirable areas - Milltown for instance - and few doubt that if sold now Glenmalure Park, though sitting on a smaller site than Dalymount, would achieve a similar sort of sum to its northside counterpart.

Whether even KRAM would have held out to see the value of the ground reach its current level is another matter. "Personally I doubt Rovers would still be playing there no matter who owned the club," says Mark Lynch, a present day director and long-time supporter. "I think the time would have been reached at some point where the people in charge would have reckoned that it was time to move on because the asset was simply too valuable to hold on to.

"It's impossible to say when that might have occurred but what is certain is that the club would have done better than it did out of the sale the way it actually did happen".

Not long after Rovers had their home sold from under them, Bohemians had a narrow escape when they received an offer of fractionally over �1 million for Dalymount but declined to sell. There have been some tough times since with the club struggling to maintain the ground, never mind update it. But the determination to stay on until now looks to have ensured a bright future.

Others have done relatively well out of the city's property boom by buying before it was too late - with Shelbourne a good example. Around the same time Rovers were selling up and Bohemians deciding to stay put, Ollie Byrne was eyeing up Tolka Park as a new home for his club. The lease on the ground wasn't an entirely straightforward affair but at around �410,000 the deal was still a good one and it is believed that the club's net share of the recent agreement to sell the ground on ahead of a planned move to Santry was around �17 million.

The purchase of Tolka was reportedly supported in a roundabout way by the FAI who, it seems, eased the move by supporting Home Farm in its development of Whitehall. But the association's precarious financial state combined with the day-to-day existence endured by most of the country's leading clubs meant pitifully little was invested in property or other infrastructure back then at a time when it was more affordable.

"When the AUL bought Clonshaugh," recalls Michael Hyland, the league's long-time president, "the FAI was broke. They were actually looking for a loan from the junior league so we went ahead and did it ourselves." Hyland bid for the 49.5 acres of then farmland close to Dublin airport at an auction in 1986 and subsequently bought it for around �69,000. Getting the ESB to move pylons so that the pitches could be laid out cost the league almost as much again while many times that has been spent since on developing the site.

A couple of years back it was valued at around �14 million, a figure that would presumably multiply if it were to be rezoned. It seems almost unthinkable that anything like it would or could be purchased for football so close to the city today.

The failure of eircom League sides to secure their long-term futures at grounds of their own choice wasn't confined to Dublin with grounds, most painfully Flower Lodge, lost to the game in places like Cork, Limerick and Waterford. In many cases there have since been successful partnerships developed with local leagues but the fact remains the clubs involved lack control over their own destiny because they couldn't buy when the opportunity arose.

The properties bought and developed by the GAA during the past two decades, in contrast, have played a critical part in the health (and wealth) of that organisation today.

Around Dublin, though, even relatively small football clubs showed what could have been achieved with a little foresight and a very modest amount of cash. After a three- year search for a home of its own, for instance, St Francis spent �45,000 on 6.25 acres close to Baldonnell aerodrome in 1987 and then a further �25,000 on three more acres five years later.

"Our secret," recalls then manager Pete Mahon, who was central to the deal, "was that we were like the GAA in that nobody was taking a penny out of the club at the time. After Malahide United, I think, we were the second club in the country to run a lottery and we did everything else we could think of too but everything went into the club and it enabled us to make enormous progress and do everything the right way."

Almost 20 years on, the land, John Hyland Park, is the subject of a bitter dispute between two factions thrown up by a split that occurred after Mahon's departure. "Buying the land was the best thing that ever happened the club but the fall-out over it was the worst," observes Mahon ruefully now.

The boys at Bohemians, meanwhile, may have done very well to realise the value of a home whose potential they could not afford to develop but for property owners in Dublin becoming rich, on paper at least, has been all too easy during the past couple of decades. Using that new-found wealth to secure a prosperous long-term future is an altogether tougher challenge and one that the club's committee is only starting to grapple with.

� The Irish Times

Bald Student

12/09/2006, 10:55 AM

Through their travels to England, Scotland or wherever watching soccer, watching Ireland play away, or watching Irish rugby sides play abroad, Irish people now have a set minimum standard of facilities that they see as benchmarks. Most Irish soccer venues fall way short.I note that you've only cited foreign stadia in this argument. Unless you can convince me that the terrace in Donnybrook Rugby is more comfortable than terraces in soccer grounds I won't agree.

Stuttgart88

12/09/2006, 11:21 AM

I could add several GAA grounds too.

Donnybrook is no great shakes I accept, or certainly wasn't when I moved to the UK in 1999. I've been past it many times since but only difference I can see is some sort of construction at the Bective End now.

My guess is that any improvement in crowds at Leinster rugby is in spite of the facilities, be it at Donnybrook or RDS. Better players, better opposition and more interesting competitions?

Billsthoughts

12/09/2006, 11:33 AM

Stuttgart88

12/09/2006, 11:44 AM

what are the celtic league attendances? feck all I imagine. what are the attendances in club rugby?
Irish people will turn up for the big games but wont go week in week out to see teams regardless how they are doing like they do elsewhere.
facilities in the eircom league are not half as bad as they are being made out. and nobody goes to games just cause the facilities are nice. good luck to bohs and their money but doubt it will have much of an impact.

1. Celtic league attendances - you're probably right. Club attendances? I used to watch Terenure College in the 90s and it was in the hundreds at best, with the occasional exception.

2. True about facilities not making crowds by itself, but surely it's at least part of the package?

Dodge

12/09/2006, 12:09 PM

celtic league attendances are brutal. Less than a couple of thousand. Facilities rubbish too

Student Mullet

12/09/2006, 12:45 PM

I could add several GAA grounds too.You could add every ground in the country except Croke Park. The facitities argument is weak. Crowds in this country depend mostly on the publicity surrounding a game and on the success of the team involved.

The only example of facilities improving crowds is in dog racing and the crowds in this case are largely attending a government subsadised bar and restaurant, it has little to do with sport. Anyone who expect crowds to flock to the new Dalymount because the bucket seats are more comfortable is kidding themselves.

endabob1

12/09/2006, 12:47 PM

Munster 9-8 Border Reivers last week
"6,138-strong crowd"

Leinsters record was at the RDS against Munster 14,000 but that would be a one off I'd imagine. I still think they get a few thousand because they had to move the games from Donnybrook because the crowds were getting too big.

pete

12/09/2006, 1:21 PM

Munster 9-8 Border Reivers last week
"6,138-strong crowd"big.

That was one of Munsters bigger Celtic League crowds. They normally only get big 10k+ crowds for Leinster or Ulster combined with Christmas holidays.

Connacht had 1,500 last week. I would be surprised if Leinster would get anything more than few thousand this week.

Donnybrook is worse than most eL grounds and Musgrave Park is worse than Turners Cross.

Schumi

12/09/2006, 1:30 PM

Leinster would usually have 3-4,000 for games against foreign teams from the matches I've been at.

endabob1

12/09/2006, 3:04 PM

I'd reckon Munster average about 5k
Leinster from Schumi's comments and my brother goes a fair bit problably about 4k
Connacht is a lot less because the population is less and the standard isn't as good (no internationals) maybe 2,000?
Ulster are fairly well supported from what I've seen and I know they sold a lot of season tickets this year, a mate goes to see them whenever he's back in Belfast reckons about the same as Munster 5/6k
They're all decent crowds (except Connacht) I think, wouldn't have thought that there are many EL clubs would turn down an average of 5,000 for every home game?

Billsthoughts

12/09/2006, 3:55 PM

neither would many of the Irish rugby clubs....;)

Leeza

12/09/2006, 6:26 PM

it is also a measure of progression. A side in the champions league will generally be held in high regard. I feel that this is not the next step for irish league clubs, an improvement in facilities will naturally provide better oppurtunites for young irish players to get to a better standard, strengthening the league. Spending money on wages, and foreign players in particular at this stage could be hugely damaging to the structure of irish football.

The whole problem with this theory is that our best players will just simply end up being shipped off to the UK. So really, none of us will benefit as our best young players will be strutting their stuff in the premier league / England

I don't see why so many EL-heads are so anxious about improving training facilities or our youth academies. I think the money should be spent on raising the profile of our league so that our best young players do stay here. If Bohs 'do a Rosenborg' (And with the money they have its very possible) we'll be able to keep our better players and then we should begin improving training facilities etc. Then the stadiums would gradually improve and like as in Norway, a spin off efect will occur where teams will begin to challange Rosenborg, or in this case Bohs.

Soper

12/09/2006, 7:00 PM

If we have better young players staying here, then thye may well end up in England, but at least they will have gotten their clubs decent money

Billsthoughts

12/09/2006, 7:40 PM

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=532503&postcount=137

Good post here bout this....worth a read.

Stuttgart88

13/09/2006, 7:29 AM

From that post:

But I bet you that if I could track that man down now, the Bath jersey would be well and truely buried in the bottom of his wardrobe/mind, and he'd be a Leinester supporter instead (helped by Bath beign sh!t now). Once a viable Irish option appeared for him, I bet you he embraced it.

Is this an endorsement of franchising? Presumably this Leinster fan had no local club which he could call his own, but once a larger, more identifiable and, let's face it, better option came along that's what it took to convert this type of fan.

Dodge

13/09/2006, 10:40 AM

I'd go to the odd Leinster game but couldn't watch an AIL game. Wouldn't call myself a rugby fan though

Billsthoughts

13/09/2006, 11:19 AM

Stuttgart, why pick one line from a post which made some fairly interesting and well made points?

Merc67

13/09/2006, 11:28 AM

rugby attendances are not really what eL fans should be comparing themselves with for a couple of reasons.

1) it's a professional game that has (often) Ireland's international players on show. this is not the case, unf, in the eL and so unfair.

2) it's generally international competition (magners league and Heineken cup) which brings with it it's own level of interest, and once more there are other international stars on show.

3) it's a smaller sport in ireland than soccer and so any comparison should be weighted as such. in this regard it's more negative from an eL point of view. 6,000 people coming out to support a rugby team should see about 15-20k supporting soccer, given the respective fan base and participation levels.

4) rugby is also something that has more of a social (climbing?)/status thing behind it. people don't always go to these games because they love the game. it's fri night entertainment at donnybrook, you can meet colleagues etc, you can have a pint and they make an effort by putting food on too. this doesnt happen in eL.

it all boils down as usual to the competition available to sports fans.
rugby fans know they'll be watching, mostly, the best ireland has to offer in fairly decent surroundings.
prospective eL supporters know the best is on the tv and the place they can watch local talent in is not as comfy as a couch, does not serve pints and they dont believe in the talent.
but once more it boils doen

Stuttgart88

13/09/2006, 12:00 PM

Stuttgart, why pick one line from a post which made some fairly interesting and well made points?I'm not saying it's not a very good post. It clearly is. Well written too, undoubtedly. I don't know what prompted the debate between dcfcsteve & PP and I'm actually not that bothered.

I highlighted that one point because for me, it prompted the most obvious questions, namely why all of a sudden Leinster rugby has support it never used to have, and is there a lesson for domestic football (which I think there is, but not without implications too)?

As it happens Merc67 below has answered the first of those questions and, by suggestion anyway, probably the second.

Also, the reason I highlighted that one point only was because part of the post deals with PP's circumstances, which isn't the problem at hand because PP was born & bred in the UK ( I believe). A lot of the rest of the post addresses the absurdity of the Irish & their relationship with football. I can't argue with it so I didn't address it. As dcfcsteve himself said "it's self evident".

The "schism" referred to is correctly identified. How to reverse it is the big issue and the Leinster Rugby fan example prompted questions that need to be asked in my opinion.

I'd be happy to thrash out this debate further & listen to arguements from all sides.

Also, if you want me to complete my comments on the post, I'd say that all of dcfcsteve's first four bullet points apply to me & my affection for Arsenal FC (nice strips, some Irish, some success, influenced by friends) , but the last two don't. I dreamt of playing for Shamrock Rovers as a kid & Milltown was the best ground in the world for me, Dalyer & Belfield not far behind in their different ways. I was born in Glasgow & spent time there so "following" Celtic was pretty obvious for me too. But as I'll say repeatedly, the Irish national team is the one that means most to me. That's just the way it is.

Schumi

13/09/2006, 12:07 PM

I highlighted that one point because for me, it prompted the most obvious questions, namely why all of a sudden Leinster rugby has support it never used to have, and is there a lesson for domestic football (which I think there is, but not without implications too)?
I think the biggest factor is the quality of the team. Half of the Irish international team play for Leinster, something which will never happen for an Irish football team.

The crowds for Leinster matches aren't that huge either outside of the 5 or 6 big games a season. A successful Bohs/Rovers/Pats team wouldn't be that far behind their 3-4,000 normal crowd.

Stuttgart88

13/09/2006, 12:10 PM

Out of intererst how many would the Dubs get during the winter?

Billsthoughts

13/09/2006, 1:00 PM

Dublin get decent enough crowds in the League. deffo more than any other county. club championship football in dublin gets relatively decent enough crowds as well. As for the other post I just thought you were picking one thing to have a go at cause you didnt have anything else to criticise. Apologies. I think he makes a few interesting points and he makes them pretty well. and as I dont really support any club most of his criticisms apply to me as much anyone else. If man u or arsenal were on my doorstep I dont think I would be goin regularly eihter to be honest. I just dont have the time. I just dont see how people who claim to be massive man u / celtic / arsenal fans dont bother going to at games here is all. the typew off people who would watch a match between Fulham and Birmingham if it was on the telly.

NeilMcD

13/09/2006, 1:03 PM

Just out of curiousity what games do you go to Bill.

Billsthoughts

13/09/2006, 1:07 PM

Ive told you before ,I am not going to any games with you!!!!!

NeilMcD

13/09/2006, 1:16 PM

You should, live football is great and addictive.

Billsthoughts

13/09/2006, 1:27 PM

I should go with you???
I dont think so.
Have been to a load of games in a load of different sports/countries but never on a regular/weekly basis. just not for me. and I would say it is the same for a lot of people.
If the dubs were playing in croker week in week out at their current level of competitiveness I doubt they would fill it in the same way they fill it now. Thats why I think people who are looking for premiership / Irish international team style attendances at club fixtures are setting unrealistic goals. In my opinion regular average crowds of 8 or so thousand would be the most any EL teams could hope for. and I would deem that as a successful and thriving league