Bush admits to Secret Interrogation Centres

[joeSoap]

Bush admits existence of secret CIA interrogation centres =Irish Indo.

US President George W Bush has admitted for the first time that the CIA has been operating secret interrogation centres across the world.
Mr Bush made the revelation yesterday while announcing that 14 suspected Islamic militants being held in such prisons are being transferred to Guantanamo Bay to face military tribunals.

The Washington Post first disclosed the existence of the CIA centres last November, but the Bush administration refused to confirm or deny the reports.

The Council of Europe - the continent's leading human rights watchdog - concluded earlier this year that several people had been kidnapped from European countries by the CIA and transported to these secret prisons in breach of international law.

A number of people who claim to have fallen victim to the scheme say they were tortured for months in countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

[drinkfeckarse]

Ah sure it's ok, it's only America trying to protect us all. :rolleyes: It's outrageous that they can flout international law without anyone that matters batting an eyelid yet they are all up in arms about Iran going nuclear.

Of course that's to blow the whole world up though and not use it as an energy source for it's people :rolleyes:

I'm not really political but America does my head in with places such as Guantamamo and just make the rules up as they go along.....as long as it suits them though.

[BohsPartisan]

But the Islamists "Hate Freedom" therefore they must love being in secret prisons and undergoing sensory deprivation in camp x ray. Every day is a party for them. No wonder they are queing up to get in.
All makes sense to me now.

[jebus]

Now now, how else are we supposed to treat these Islamo Fascists?

On a proper note, it doesn't surprise me that Bush has admitted that these cells exist, really who is going to stop America doing whatever they want in this world? All that will happen over this is the Guardian will devote three pages of Comment to it, the Socialists will have a ten man march from the Central Bank and the rest of us will go and watch Fahrenheit 9/11 again. Thats why Bush can openly admit to these illegal cells, and thats why they will continue to exist

[First]

I wonder did they get thier Duty Free in Shannon on thier way through.

Not a statement based on fact but isn't it all sounding a lot more feasible....

[BohsPartisan]

Now now, how else are we supposed to treat these Islamo Fascists?

On a proper note, it doesn't surprise me that Bush has admitted that these cells exist, really who is going to stop America doing whatever they want in this world? All that will happen over this is the Guardian will devote three pages of Comment to it, the Socialists will have a ten man march from the Central Bank and the rest of us will go and watch Fahrenheit 9/11 again. Thats why Bush can openly admit to these illegal cells, and thats why they will continue to exist

Come on now there have been thousands on the anti-war marches. In fairness though the numbers have dropped off dramatically from the beginning where we were talking tens of thousands wheras now you get a couple of thousand. Understandable in that marching alone really doesn't do much in the short term.

[jebus]

Come on now there have been thousands on the anti-war marches. In fairness though the numbers have dropped off dramatically from the beginning where we were talking tens of thousands wheras now you get a couple of thousand. Understandable in that marching alone really doesn't do much in the short term.

Let's be honest BohsPartisan, the number for anti-war marches has reached embarassing levels. Where you get thousands from I don't know, unless you are talking about worldwide figures. The last count at the last protest camp at Shannon had it at 20 people by all accounts, the protest march against Israel led by the Socialists from the Central Bank a few weeks ago attracted between 150-200 people tops. It's time to admit that the support that was there against the Iraqi War and the bombing of Afghanistan was mostly made up of teenagers and college kids just latching on to their latest bandwagon. it lasted for about a year until they latched on to the Make Poverty History armband phase, and since then it has become a bit of a joke. The fight against Bush has been won and lost, and it's been over since before he resoundly beat John Kerry if you ask me

[pete]

So Bush had admitted these places exist. Big deal. I don't see anything changing. The US will do what it wants whether we like it or not. Protests are pointless too.

[osarusan]

Protests are pointless too.

I hope you mean this specifically relating to bush and Guantanamo.

Because protests in South Africa, in America in the 60's and 70's, France recently regarding job laws, (among many other examples) achieved great things.

[BohsPartisan]

Let's be honest BohsPartisan, the number for anti-war marches has reached embarassing levels. Where you get thousands from I don't know, unless you are talking about worldwide figures. The last count at the last protest camp at Shannon had it at 20 people by all accounts, the protest march against Israel led by the Socialists from the Central Bank a few weeks ago attracted between 150-200 people tops. It's time to admit that the support that was there against the Iraqi War and the bombing of Afghanistan was mostly made up of teenagers and college kids just latching on to their latest bandwagon. it lasted for about a year until they latched on to the Make Poverty History armband phase, and since then it has become a bit of a joke. The fight against Bush has been won and lost, and it's been over since before he resoundly beat John Kerry if you ask me
Thats Cr@p. Were you on any of the big marches in Dublin? The February 13th 2003 march had at least 100,000 (some estimates said 150,000), subsequent ones had 20 - 30,000. The majority were certainly not college kids and even the naysayers admitted that these protests attracted people from all walks of life. I would say a great minority were college kids. In my workplace, everyone went at the time. My parents went, NGO's were there, union branches, political organisations, religious organisations. The trains to Dublin were packed on Feb 13th '03. The real deflation was that the war still went ahead. Many people wrongly believed that the marches alone could stop the war.
The marches you mention were all midweek in the case of Dublin. Midweek marches have always been much smaller than weekend ones other than in the case of Day X. The Shannon ones are smaller because for most people it involves travel. When there is a Saturday march, as there usually is on the weekend nearest the anniversary of day X you get 1-3,000. I know, I've been there. The media always downplay the numbers anyway.
The majority are against the war/occupation and against Israel's role in the lebanon. I have done street work on both these issues and there is always massive support. They just don't know what to do to stop them.

[joeSoap]

They just don't know what to do to stop them.They don't care about them and have little interest in stopping them.

[BohsPartisan]

Not in my experience. Which is considerable in campaigning on these issues.

[jebus]

Thats Cr@p. Were you on any of the big marches in Dublin? The February 13th 2003 march had at least 100,000 (some estimates said 150,000), subsequent ones had 20 - 30,000. The majority were certainly not college kids and even the naysayers admitted that these protests attracted people from all walks of life. I would say a great minority were college kids. In my workplace, everyone went at the time. My parents went, NGO's were there, union branches, political organisations, religious organisations. The trains to Dublin were packed on Feb 13th '03. The real deflation was that the war still went ahead. Many people wrongly believed that the marches alone could stop the war.
The marches you mention were all midweek in the case of Dublin. Midweek marches have always been much smaller than weekend ones other than in the case of Day X. The Shannon ones are smaller because for most people it involves travel. When there is a Saturday march, as there usually is on the weekend nearest the anniversary of day X you get 1-3,000. I know, I've been there. The media always downplay the numbers anyway.
The majority are against the war/occupation and against Israel's role in the lebanon. I have done street work on both these issues and there is always massive support. They just don't know what to do to stop them.

The numbers you give may aswell be from a lifetime ago, and all it confirms is what I was saying in the lack of interest in marching these days. Even by your claims there has been a drop of 97,000 people on the marches in the last three years, now thats a lot of people to lose from any protest movement.

If the weekday marches pull in a lot less people then why have them? Surely a march such as the anti-Israel march could have been postponed til the weekend? Is this just down to bad planning?

As for the people who attended the protests around 2003, well I can't speak for the people of Dublin, but at the time I was spending my weekdays in Cork and weekends in Limerick, and the protests there constisted of mostly teenagers and students, backed up by the usual Socialist heads (not meant as an insult, just saying that ye organise a lot of these protests), so thats where I'll take my reference point from

[pete]

Did those protests change a single thing? There have been anti-war mareches since the 50s & they haven't changed anything.

[Marked Man]

What gets me is that we actually have a political situation where stating that you have torture camps on foreign soil is considered an election-winning strategy (hence the timing of the announcement).

[Dr.Nightdub]

As for the people who attended the protests around 2003, well I can't speak for the people of Dublin, but at the time I was spending my weekdays in Cork and weekends in Limerick, and the protests there constisted of mostly teenagers and students, backed up by the usual Socialist heads (not meant as an insult, just saying that ye organise a lot of these protests), so thats where I'll take my reference point from

Jebus, I know it's not statistically significant and at the same time I know they weren't the only ones, but my parents were on the march in Feb. 2003 - both are in their 70s. Neither would be in the zimmerframe wing of rent-a-mob either - the last march they were on was for Civil Rights in the north in the late 60s.

[BohsPartisan]

Did those protests change a single thing? There have been anti-war mareches since the 50s & they haven't changed anything.

The anti-war protests against Vietnam changed the face of American society. So yes. The protests do change things. If its only consciousness they change its a start.

[BohsPartisan]

The numbers you give may aswell be from a lifetime ago, and all it confirms is what I was saying in the lack of interest in marching these days. Even by your claims there has been a drop of 97,000 people on the marches in the last three years, now thats a lot of people to lose from any protest movement.

If the weekday marches pull in a lot less people then why have them? Surely a march such as the anti-Israel march could have been postponed til the weekend? Is this just down to bad planning?

As for the people who attended the protests around 2003, well I can't speak for the people of Dublin, but at the time I was spending my weekdays in Cork and weekends in Limerick, and the protests there constisted of mostly teenagers and students, backed up by the usual Socialist heads (not meant as an insult, just saying that ye organise a lot of these protests), so thats where I'll take my reference point from

Thats a fair point but the Dublin protests were certainly not student orientated. The protests of 2003 were awe inspiring. From a Socialist Party perspective, we always warned those who put too much stock in these protests alone that they would not stop the war or the US military using Shannon unless they were linked to serious union agitation at Shannon airport and other key areas of the economy. I have already said that in this context the drop-off of people from the protests in understandable. February 15th 2003 was a one off. It was the protest where those people who usually normally would never protest came out on the streets (actually the Irish Ferries one last year was similar if more union based). It was something the like of which I'd never experienced. The outpouring of solidarity from ordinary people when we do stalls on Iraq or Lebannon is astounding. When we are campaigning on issues such as this in Drogheda where I live, we frequently sell out of copies of The Socialist. Fighting fund donations often quadruple or more for these issues. This says that if anything, people are even more outraged now at what US and British Imperialism are doing in the middle east than they were in 2003, they are just not so confident in the method of marching up and down O Connel St. I suppose you could call it Protest fatigue.

[Partizan]

Ah sure it's ok, it's only America trying to protect us all. :rolleyes: It's outrageous that they can flout international law without anyone that matters batting an eyelid yet they are all up in arms about Iran going nuclear.

Of course that's to blow the whole world up though and not use it as an energy source for it's people :rolleyes:

I'm not really political but America does my head in with places such as Guantamamo and just make the rules up as they go along.....as long as it suits them though.

Its called double standards my good man. Its ok for the Israelis to batter Lebanon back to the Stone Age, KLA to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of non Albanians, not batt an eyelid to the erection of Saudi funded mosques and imposition of Wahhabist imams in Bosnia/Kosovo, Invade a sovereign state (Iraq) and kill 100,000 in the process, inflict torture on political opponents but hey as you say when its the Iranians, North Korea or Fidel Castro, no they cant do that because there the bad guys. America is good = democracy.

[anto1208]

Ah sure it's ok, it's only America trying to protect us all. :rolleyes: It's outrageous that they can flout international law without anyone that matters batting an eyelid yet they are all up in arms about Iran going nuclear.

Of course that's to blow the whole world up though and not use it as an energy source for it's people :rolleyes:

I'm not really political but America does my head in with places such as Guantamamo and just make the rules up as they go along.....as long as it suits them though.


to tell the truth i dont care , it was sticking to the international law that caused clinton to chicken out of having bin laden killed in the 90's , its the same laws that when he launched a missle attack after US embassy's where bombed ( also to divert attention from the monica scandle) on bin ladens base ,forced him to tell the pakistani goverment who in turn told bin laden to get out of there and he survived again . This was the attack that started the war between the al Q. and the northern alliance / America . this is when it all started long before GW Bush every got any power .

its the same civil rights laws that wouldnt allow the FBI to look at one of the 9/11 hijackers laptop which contained details of the twin towers attack and could have stopped it when he was arrested after a tip off from the flight school , all because his rights had to be protected .


the iranian goverment has stated it wants to wipe israel off the map , sure lets let them have a nuclear bomb , if you listen to interviews closely whats starts out as a "we want a power source " soon turns in to a if we had nuclear weapons other countries would have to take us seriously .... yip sounds like a trust worthy bunch of blokes .


i really dont care if america locks up some one that wants to see me dead or the whole world turned into an islamic state ... i like beer and chicks in short skirts if that means i have to back america then i will :D

[drinkfeckarse]

the iranian goverment has stated it wants to wipe israel off the map ,

.. yip sounds like a trust worthy bunch of blokes .


My recollection of that comment was that "Israel should be wiped off the map". Iran didn't say they were personally going to do it and they are not the only people who have a hatred of Israel. However, I will concede it was a reckless comment to make in political circles.

I never said they were trustworthy but they are no more or no less trustworthy than our American colleagues. You surely don't believe every word that comes out of Bush's mouth do you?

[casso36]

My recollection of that comment was that "Israel should be wiped off the map". Iran didn't say they were personally going to do it and they are not the only people who have a hatred of Israel. However, I will concede it was a reckless comment to make in political circles.

I never said they were trustworthy but they are no more or no less trustworthy than our American colleagues. You surely don't believe every word that comes out of Bush's mouth do you?


He's a great man!! Who else would make you laugh like that most days, He is a complete dumb A ss flucker!! Typical American ****!!! The sooner the better he is sent to his retirement home and better for the rest of the world!!
Least then maybe i can travel to New York and enjoy it, rather than shi t bricks every time i fly over there!!

[anto1208]

My recollection of that comment was that "Israel should be wiped off the map". Iran didn't say they were personally going to do it and they are not the only people who have a hatred of Israel. However, I will concede it was a reckless comment to make in political circles.

I never said they were trustworthy but they are no more or no less trustworthy than our American colleagues. You surely don't believe every word that comes out of Bush's mouth do you?

i certainly dont but doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still better than doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons .

speaking as some one that lived in saudi these islamic countries are backward countries like ireland used to be , no rights for women , women not aloud to work ,vote, wear what they wanted ( some may say the good old days :D ).ruled by religion rather than goverment or police now no one wants to go back to those days , this is what the islamic f**king mentalist want .

watching reeling in the years the other night seeing women all wearing head scarfs talking about skirts above the ankle being for whores !!! the local priest having more power than the local gaurd !!frightening to think how backwards this country was .

it all reminds me of the team america pussies dicks and arseholes speach !!:D

we may not like everything about america but we do need them to protect us , who else can we rely on the French ???!!!;)

[strangeirish]

He's a great man!! Who else would make you laugh like that most days, He is a complete dumb A ss flucker!! Typical American ****!!! The sooner the better he is sent to his retirement home and better for the rest of the world!!
Least then maybe i can travel to New York and enjoy it, rather than shi t bricks every time i fly over there!!
I can understand that you don't like Bush, but could you refrain from painting all Americans as typical ****'s.
Thanks in advance.

[anto1208]

He's a great man!! Who else would make you laugh like that most days, He is a complete dumb A ss flucker!! Typical American ****!!! The sooner the better he is sent to his retirement home and better for the rest of the world!!
Least then maybe i can travel to New York and enjoy it, rather than shi t bricks every time i fly over there!!


think your getting your dates mixed up a bit, al Q. hijacked planes & crashed them into new york then the war on terror starts !! if you think bush leaving will stop terrorist attacks that have been going on for donkeys years before he arrived then im afraid your mistaken , remember bin laden funded an attack on the twin towers in 93 it was around 2000 that bush got into office

[anto eile]

I hope you mean this specifically relating to bush and Guantanamo.

Because protests in South Africa, in America in the 60's and 70's, France recently regarding job laws, (among many other examples) achieved great things.

generally the great thing about french protests is that they run amok and riot for days. that works. peaceful protests are a waste of time

[pete]

Reading an interesting article on the latest Republican election strategy.

Bush has proposed a new law which would allow certain section of the state to engage in 'torture' & would block any attempts to punish anyone who carried it out in the past. Seems if the Democrats vote against this then they will be unpatriotic.

Its all part of the the new strategy that claims Gitmo & torture necessary to protect America & that the Republicans the only ones who will protect the nation.

:rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

think your getting your dates mixed up a bit, al Q. hijacked planes & crashed them into new york then the war on terror starts !! if you think bush leaving will stop terrorist attacks that have been going on for donkeys years before he arrived then im afraid your mistaken , remember bin laden funded an attack on the twin towers in 93 it was around 2000 that bush got into office

And the CIA funded Bin Laden to fight the Sov's. American foreign policy has led the world to where it is today.

[strangeirish]

The method of 'torture' they are using is putting the prisoners in a cold cell with no blanket and blasting them with 'Red Hot Chilli Peppers' music! I kid you not. If the Repugs really want to protect America, they should use 'Foster and Allen'.;)

On a more serious note, with the mid-term elections almost upon us here in the US, watch the Repugs ratchet up the fear mongering, especially via Faux News.

[drinkfeckarse]

The method of 'torture' they are using is putting the prisoners in a cold cell with no blanket and blasting them with 'Red Hot Chilli Peppers' music! I kid you not.


I don't believe that for a second strangeirish.

[casso36]

[QUOTE=anto1208;534108]think your getting your dates mixed up a bit, al Q. hijacked planes & crashed them into new york then the war on terror starts !! if you think bush leaving will stop terrorist attacks that have been going on for donkeys years before he arrived then im afraid your mistaken , remember bin laden funded an attack on the twin towers in 93 it was around 2000 that bush got into office[/QUOTE

I think if he leaves, you might get someone in that might actually talk to people before going gunho! into countries and blowing the **** out of city and towns,it was Bush that decided to invade Iraq & Afganastan and nobody else. myself and wife and couple of others were up the top of the Twin towers 1 month before september 11th and watching the story unfold a month later was scary stuff. We actually flew back over in the november just to see the devastation!! So i do know what i'm talking about!! thank you.

Bin Laden, i know is a terrosist and know that he does'nt listen and hates the Americans with a passion, but like Ireland it can be sorted with the right people in place and with dialog!! I could be wrong but would hope something could be done. He is completing his Dads war with the world and nothing else!!

[casso36]

I can understand that you don't like Bush, but could you refrain from painting all Americans as typical ****'s.
Thanks in advance.


Sorry Stange,

I sould have put that better!!!

I love New York!! The Best City In The World!!!!!

[BohsPartisan]

No. Best City in the World is Vancouver.

[casso36]

No. Best City in the World is Vancouver.

No New York!!!:D :D

[BohsPartisan]

No New York!!!:D :D

You make a compelling arguement. :D


Out of curiosity have you ever been to Vancouver?

[drinkfeckarse]

You both have obviously never been to Cork then.....;)

[casso36]

You both have obviously never been to Cork then.....;)


:D Have too!!! Baltimore, Sherkin Island, And Cork City For Michael Jackson!! Schome on!!! :D

[casso36]

You make a compelling arguement. :D


Out of curiosity have you ever been to Vancouver?

Not yet Bohs!!

But on my list of to do's before i die!!!!

[strangeirish]

I don't believe that for a second strangeirish.

On the 2nd page it makes a reference to this in the 7th paragraph. Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/washington/10detain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).


Sorry Strange,
I sould have put that better!!!
I love New York!! The Best City In The World!!!!!
No worries. I do understand your frustration with an increasingly unpopular administration though.

[drinkfeckarse]

On the 2nd page it makes a reference to this in the 7th paragraph. Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/washington/10detain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).


Sorry SI, I don't doubt that they do it. What I meant was that I didn't believe that's all they did.

Plus an American newspaper is hardly going to be objective in it's reporting. I admit I only scanned through the whole story but it is put together almost as a story and not a report and has very few qoutes.

[strangeirish]

Sorry SI, I don't doubt that they do it. What I meant was that I didn't believe that's all they did.

Plus an American newspaper is hardly going to be objective in it's reporting. I admit I only scanned through the whole story but it is put together almost as a story and not a report and has very few qoutes.
Agree totally. Here's another link (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866) that's a bit more discriptive. Even Eminem gets a 'shout out'.

I need to be careful here, I'm starting to sound like jockser.:D

[Marked Man]

its the same civil rights laws that wouldnt allow the FBI to look at one of the 9/11 hijackers laptop which contained details of the twin towers attack and could have stopped it when he was arrested after a tip off from the flight school , all because his rights had to be protected .

i really dont care if america locks up some one that wants to see me dead or the whole world turned into an islamic state ... i like beer and chicks in short skirts if that means i have to back america then i will :D

This is what happens when you lock people up without regard for their civil rights:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-security-canada-arar.html

There was a similar article in the New York Times about another such falsely arrested and subsequently tortured individual two days ago (can't post a link, as you need a subscription to view).

The vast majority of the detainees at Guantanamo have not been charged, and quite possibly won't ever be. None have been allowed see the evidence against them.

Incidentally, I spent a year in Indonesia, the world's most populous muslim country, and talked to a lot of higly educated intelligent women who wore the veil. It's certainly not a cut and dry case of women being oppressed into wearing it. All of the women I spoke to said that they had chosen to do it (whereas their parents' generation had not), as it allowed them to be taken seriously as people, rather than having to deal with men who just saw them as sexy chicks in short skirts.

[jockser]

Agree totally. Here's another link (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866) that's a bit more discriptive. Even Eminem gets a 'shout out'.

I need to be careful here, I'm starting to sound like jockser.:D
carefull now ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4757274759497686216&q=terror+storm