Money..

[Schwalker]

What´s the matter with Irish clubs and money matters..?

There is hardly a thread that don´t ends up with speculations about money. Who will go bankrupt? Who will make it big? Revenue this..Debts that!

The idea of having a realistic budget and having the books scrutinised by accountants every year haven´t reached the clubs?...Or is all clubs just built on sand in a financial sense? :confused:

[pineapple stu]

Or is all clubs just built on sand in a financial sense? :confused:
For most clubs, it's as simple as that. Some have learned from past experience - UCD, Waterford, Rovers, Harps - and appear to operate properly now.

[Schwalker]

So it´s a combination of fiscal optimism and drunk chairmen at to many clubs...:cool:

Money, Eircom is just next to the richest league in the world but many Irish clubs can´t pay their bills, because so many choose to support glamour teams in the EPL?..Hardly!
With summer footy there is no real competition with the EPL I guess..So the problem lies with the product. Yes I know I´m not telling anyone something new.

So what does the Eircom needs to become popular?

[BohsFans]

So it´s a combination of fiscal optimism and drunk chairmen at to many clubs...:cool:

Money, Eircom is just next to the richest league in the world but many Irish clubs can´t pay their bills, because so many choose to support glamour teams in the EPL?..Hardly!
With summer footy there is no real competition with the EPL I guess..So the problem lies with the product. Yes I know I´m not telling anyone something new.

So what does the Eircom needs to become popular?

please don't call it "the eircom".

Eircom are a phone company!

[Schwalker]

please don't call it "the eircom".

Eircom are a phone company!

Sorry..The EL :rolleyes:

[BohsFans]

Sorry..The EL :rolleyes:

that's better :p

[placid casual]

seems to me the basis of all money troubles in the EL is players demands.
football players, as humans,are by and large numbskulls.
they have their 5 tracksuits,white trainers and diagonal stripe through their hair and all think they are worthy of playin in the golden mecca that is english football.
managers have no choice but to invest in these imbeciles as they have a modicum of talent which can bring temporary success in a league starved of genuine quality.
joxer kelly.the baker runts,half the cork team - thses are perfect examples of these f**kers who deamnd high wages and go missin when its needed.
dont get me wrong there are some genuine footballers in this country .
people like mccourt,joe gamble,tony mcdonnell of ucd, barry murphy at rovers -these guys are trying their balls off.

until such time as we can get more real footballers into the league and not these trainee hairdresser's then money will alwayd be too tight to mention.

oh and i dont care if you disagree..
adios

[BohDiddley]

You don't think it's got something to do with the fact that no one, bar a few lunatics like us, goes to see them play?

[Dodge]

Bottom line is there is NO money in the league and its not an attractive proposition to invest in either. Add in the "speculate to accumulate" business practices and the fact no club wants to be left behind and you have the current situation. Its the perfect model for disaster. I just hope more clubs go bust and the rest sort themselves out.

[dcfcsteve]

There is something peculiarly intoxicating about football that makes normally quite cautious/sensible business people make ridiculous decisions and take kludicrous gambles - all to 'follow the dream'.

It is not a peculiarly Irish phenomena. It happens all over Europe. Gretna would be a classic and pertinent example right now.

Football just makes smart people act stupid. We can blame the players, the fans or whatever, but they're not the core problem. Money problems still exist in leagues with 20 times our support. The problem is still there in leagues with bags of talented players. Leeds United any one...?

Football is just a stupid pill. Until smart people stop making stupid decisions, football will continue to face money problems in Ireland and elsewhere.

[Jerry The Saint]

"Visionaries" like Roddy Collins and Ollie Byrne would tell you that the only way to get rid of these money problems is to spend even more money!:D :confused:

[manic da hoop]

Football all over the world is a loss making business, it's just that it is repeated on different scales depending on the size of the league in question. I hate the way the media constantly make an issue of the likes of CHF folding, and how it is a sign of things to come for others. Clubs have always struggled financially, most weather the occasional storm, and some thrive against all the odds. This is not unique to Ireland. If anything we'd be the odd ones out if our clubs consistantly reported a profit at the end of each financial year. There may be huge sums of money circulating in some of the bigger leagues in Europe, but guess where it all goes - the players' back pockets, that's where.

[Macy]

Ultimately it's down to not enough money coming in to meet the wage bill, due to lack of support. The Irish are a nation of part time glory hunters, in all sports, which is a problem for football based on a league campaign of 33 matches.

This is all exacerbated by net pay contracts, which lead to avoidance attempts to reduce the tax bill, especially for part time players. Revenue has copped on to this practice, hence the raft of big tax bills. The FAI have to insist on gross pay contracts only from now on, and should do a deal with someone like Sage to get all clubs producing proper accounts, payslips, revenue returns etc

[dcfcsteve]

Ultimately it's down to not enough money coming in to meet the wage bill, due to lack of support. The Irish are a nation of part time glory hunters, in all sports, which is a problem for football based on a league campaign of 33 matches.

This is all exacerbated by net pay contracts, which lead to avoidance attempts to reduce the tax bill, especially for part time players. Revenue has copped on to this practice, hence the raft of big tax bills. The FAI have to insist on gross pay contracts only from now on, and should do a deal with someone like Sage to get all clubs producing proper accounts, payslips, revenue returns etc

Macy - this is not the ultimate problem. It's just a symptom.

If those who run Irish football clubs ran them like any other non-football organisation or business - i.e. spent only what they could afford to - then they wouldn't be taking on such large wage bills. That is the bottom line.

You can't blame crowds. The crowds we have are the crowds we have, and our clubs just have to get on with working within that current reality. Spending beyond what your fan base suggests you can afford, and then blaming the lack of crowds for the inevitable financial problems that ensue, is like taking the roof off of your house and then blaming the weather when you get flooded out.

[pineapple stu]

seems to me the basis of all money troubles in the EL is players demands.
Eh, no. It's the fact that people will pay the money that's being looked for.

It's possible to run a club on a proper budget. Most clubs just don't. If they did, the league would be a much better place. It may be a weaker league, but it would at least be in a position to grow.

[Mr A]

I don't think the league would be all that much weaker. The vast, vast majority of the players would still be here, just on less money.

Maybe the 65% wage cap can make an impact next year...

[pineapple stu]

Maybe the 65% wage cap can make an impact next year...
I remember the same said about UEFA Licencing.

[dcfcsteve]

The sad thing is that the only obvious example of a large well-regulated league in Europe (France) also performss well below it's expected strength in European club competitions.

French football is effectively being punished for unilaterally introducing strict rules on financial competence. UEFA should recognise this and lean on other associations to follow suit.

[pineapple stu]

What about Switzerland? FCB in the second group phase of the CL recently, knopcing out Liverpool and Celtic and getting results off Juve and Man Utd. FC Thun there last year from nowhere and certainly not getting embarrassed. Only twice the size of Ireland too. Very strict rules there on finances - Servette were kicked out of the league among others.

[manic da hoop]

You can't blame crowds. The crowds we have are the crowds we have, and our clubs just have to get on with working within that current reality. Spending beyond what your fan base suggests you can afford, and then blaming the lack of crowds for the inevitable financial problems that ensue, is like taking the roof off of your house and then blaming the weather when you get flooded out.

So very true. There are too many of us that somehow believe that if we tweek some specific element slightly then the crowds will come pouring in...they won't. And blaming summer soccer for not being able to dramatically improve on this problem is silly and over-simplistic. There is no catch-all solution to the various problems that we face. Some changes will make some improvements, but the sooner we accept this league's limitations (and work around them) the better. The Derry team that lost to a Cypriot side three years ago weren't a pub team, the Derry team that hammered Gretna the other night aren't world beaters - certain small but significant hanges were made, and they paid off. Those that don't shouldn't be an excuse for saying "ah fcek it, it's usless".

[WeAreRovers]

I remember the same said about UEFA Licencing.

What is this "UEFA Licencing" you speak of?

KOH

[pete]

We need to remove the eL, have a knock out competition but allow teams that lose matches back in throuhg a qualifier section. Play all the games at the new Lansdowne Road. We will get 5-6 decent crowds for the big clubs but will need to play the season over 3 months.

:cool:

[Schwalker]

I don't think the league would be all that much weaker. The vast, vast majority of the players would still be here, just on less money.

Maybe the 65% wage cap can make an impact next year...


Your clubs pay 65% of their income in WAGES??? :eek:

My club (S04) pay around 30% and we are big spenders in the bundesliga..

[DmanDmythDledge]

Your clubs pay 65% of their income in WAGES??? :eek:

My club (S04) pay around 30% and we are big spenders in the bundesliga..
No at the moment clubs can spend what they want on wages. I wouldn't know what percentage each club spend on wages.

As of next season clubs will only be allowed to spend 65% max of income on wages.

[Schwalker]

No at the moment clubs can spend what they want on wages. I wouldn't know what percentage each club spend on wages.

As of next season clubs will only be allowed to spend 65% max of income on wages.


But but but..If a club spend that much on wages how can they afford to pay for their stadiums? New players? service their debts?
build new training facilities? Afford a decent youth academy? etc etc..:confused:

[CharlesThompson]

Schwalker - our clubs pay significantly more than 65% on wages. That is why our stadiums a rotting and why the Revenue Commissioners are squeezing clubs for the money we owe them.

[Schwalker]

Schwalker - our clubs pay significantly more than 65% on wages. That is why our stadiums a rotting and why the Revenue Commissioners are squeezing clubs for the money we owe them.

But it can´t continue like that. Something got to give..Either the clubs use some common sense and accept that they can´t spend more than they earn or they will fold.

It´s an earn more or spend less scenario..:cool:

[Dr.Nightdub]

Can someone just give John Delaney's mobile number to Schwalker? He can let on to be Sepp Blatter and threaten all sorts of nasty stuff unless the local administrators of the FIFA franchise start to actually run this League properly.

[sonofstan]

Can someone just give John Delaney's mobile number to Schwalker? He can let on to be Sepp Blatter and threaten all sorts of nasty stuff unless the local administrators of the FIFA franchise start to actually run this League properly.

Better, can we just give Schwalker John Delaney's job? how could he be worse?

[Schwalker]

Can someone just give John Delaney's mobile number to Schwalker? He can let on to be Sepp Blatter and threaten all sorts of nasty stuff unless the local administrators of the FIFA franchise start to actually run this League properly.

Hmm, I could actually get hold of Lennart Johannson...Good enough? :D

PS..Not that he will do anything I suggest, just wonder why some drunk idiot is calling him at his home.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, the joy of introducing new people to the league.

[Battery Rover]

Have often wondered. How many teams are actually living within their means? I know we didn't the last few years but have now decided as tough as it will be that we have to do it. Hence all players being west of the shannon. Club probably running of a €2500 weekly budget

[BohDiddley]

So very true. There are too many of us that somehow believe that if we tweek some specific element slightly then the crowds will come pouring in...they won't. And blaming summer soccer for not being able to dramatically improve on this problem is silly and over-simplistic. There is no catch-all solution to the various problems that we face. Some changes will make some improvements, but the sooner we accept this league's limitations (and work around them) the better. The Derry team that lost to a Cypriot side three years ago weren't a pub team, the Derry team that hammered Gretna the other night aren't world beaters - certain small but significant hanges were made, and they paid off. Those that don't shouldn't be an excuse for saying "ah fcek it, it's usless".
Both answers are right. You can take an accounting view on this or you can take a marketing view.
Accounting means balancing the books and living within your given means. That will avoid the succession of financial crises that we've been having, and of course will avoid the tax and wage scandals that continue to discredit the league. We can limit the analysis to that if we are happy to follow minnow clubs playing in a minnow league and continue to call everyone else a barstooler.
A marketing approach will seek to increase crowds in the long term, by including as many people as possible. Ultimately, the reason that clubs cannot live within their means is that there is not enough money coming through the turnstiles. Crowds matter. And crowds are getting smaller.
An awful lot hinges on the job that the FAI makes of propagandising the league and achieving a cultural shift in how we Irish relate to football. You can't put € signs on that, but that doesn't mean it isn't critically important. This is a major strategic opportunity. Pray it isn't wasted. My fear is that, in order for anything to be achieved, the first thing that has to happen is that we have a cultural shift in the FAI.

[dcfcsteve]

My fear is that, in order for anything to be achieved, the first thing that has to happen is that we have a cultural shift in the FAI.

Spot on.

The FAI should be doggedly fighting the EL's corner - tooth and nail - at every opportunity.

For example - every televised game brings additional money into our league, so they should be banging down the broadcasters doors on a regaular basis looking for them to show more games. This weekend has 2 great fixtures that could have a huge bearing on who wins the league (Cork v City / Shels v Bohs). The FAI should've spent the last few weeks solid badgering the 4 terrestial channels and Setanta about what great games these would be and the need to broadcast one of them. In reality I bet you they've done feck all, and most of the channels haven't really twigged how key these games are.

Until the FAI starts to use its funds and influence to puch us, we'll stay in the shadows. But I seriously doubt they care that much to even want to - let alone bother.