View Full Version : Derry & Rovers to be deducted points
BohDiddley
09/08/2006, 1:33 PM
What's the Derry match?
As for us, we have to lose six points because we signed a guy without realising that he was suspended from games that technically were never played?
Sometimes I hate this league so much.
In fairness, if Rovers didn't check with the league they have nobody to blame but themselves (except maybe the player himself!)
Anyone know what the craic with Derry is?
Peadar
09/08/2006, 1:39 PM
Both Drogheda and ourselves played Dublin City away in the first series. So why should be we penalised because, on the luck of the draw, we were drawn away to DC in the first series?
Don't know what your point is?
We beat them 1-0 at home and 0-4 away.
You lost 1-0 to them away.
You expect to be rewarded for that?
In fairness, if Rovers didn't check with the league they have nobody to blame but themselves (except maybe the player himself!)
Anyone know what the craic with Derry is?
Im guessing O'Flynn but he was only given a 1 match ban and this has still not been extended at the disciplinary meeting, unless they decided it and told no one:eek: but that couldnt happen could it??
mypost
09/08/2006, 1:43 PM
As for us, we have to lose six points because we signed a guy without realising that he was suspended from games that technically were never played?
http://www.foot.ie/showpost.php?p=512516&postcount=21
It's not our fault they went bust. :mad:
Did Cork play Dublin City down at Turners Cross in the first series?
Yes (http://www.foot.ie/showpost.php?p=448723&postcount=88)
Did Shels play Dublin City at Tolka in the first series?
Yes (http://www.foot.ie/showpost.php?p=465456&postcount=127)
dcfcsteve
09/08/2006, 1:46 PM
I disagree. Its not the fault of the clubs that only played them once that they have no chance to earn those 3 points. If any team doesn't fulfill one fixture, the other team is awarded a victory. Standard procedure in most leagues and cups. Why should it be any different for 15-16 games?
Because there's a huge difference between a team being unable to fulfill a league fixture, and one disappearing up it's own arse in a puff of smoke.
Can you tell me when the last time an EL team was unable to fulfill a league fixture ?? I seriously doubt you can, because in practice it doesn't happen. What happens is the team are either told to play it, or if both sides agree it gets rescheduled. Otherwise teams would be unfulfilling fixtures all the time to overcome injuries etc. Unfulfilled league fixtures simply do not happen with existing teams outside of pub leagues and the like.
And standard practice in other leagues (eg. England, France) has been to null and void any results of teams who have gone belly-up mid-season. How can you argue standard practice in one area (unfulfilled fixtures) , but not accept it in another much more relevant area (teams defuncting mid-season) ?
Can we all just agree that we all want what is best for our own clubs situation?
Does anyone favour a system that means their own club loses position in the league?
WeAreRovers
09/08/2006, 1:56 PM
As for us, we have to lose six points because we signed a guy without realising that he was suspended from games that technically were never played?
Sometimes I hate this league so much.
We won't lose 6 points and Derry won't lose any either. There's a number of precedents on this one in the eircom League and none of them involve points deductions.
Agree 100% about hating the league though.
KOH
We won't lose 6 points and Derry won't lose any either. There's a number of precedents on this one in the eircom League and none of them involve points deductions.
Agree 100% about hating the league though.
Still should have checked. Has nobody learned from our mistakes
Sure it'll be alright when the league merges with the FAI, afterall it's not like it was their pathetic implementation of licencing that caused this fookin mess in the first place.
I think I hate anyone that dons a blazer in every sport.
I think I hate anyone that dons a blazer in every sport.
Now you're talking
dcfc_1928
09/08/2006, 2:13 PM
What I'm saying is - if only the first series of Dublin City matches are taking into account, then why should the should the clubs who had to play DC away in the first series be penalised?
It is arguable that if both Drogheda and Derry had played their first DC games at home they could have achieved better results - as shown by the subsequent home matches in the second series.
Therefore rightly or wrongly, there will be arguments on both sides over what action the League should take. As I said, its a mess.
And yes, if Derry had won their first match, and Cork had lost - I'd probably be looking for the first round results to stand?!? :-)
Don't know what your point is?
We beat them 1-0 at home and 0-4 away.
You lost 1-0 to them away.
You expect to be rewarded for that?
sullanefc
09/08/2006, 2:53 PM
Can we all just agree that we all want what is best for our own clubs situation?
Does anyone favour a system that means their own club loses position in the league?
I think I'm leaning towards the expunging of points scenario. I know it doesn't favour Cork City but it seems right. I don't like the fact that players get goals and appearances stricken from the record yet suspensions still stand, but from a fairness point of view, I think the original decision was the fairest one.
In my local league a team dropped out. We had drawn with them twice but because of cancellation of fixtures earlier in the season some teams hadn't played them yet. We were going for promotion, but when the team in question left, all the teams around us were awarded 6 points and we lost out. If their results were made null and void we probably would have been promoted. Seemed unfair to us at the time.
On the other hand Cork City would gain from a similar scenario in this league, so I don't know. It's one big mess.
Poor Student
09/08/2006, 2:56 PM
Does anyone favour a system that means their own club loses position in the league?
Well I don't favour UCD getting a 3-0 walkover for a game that will never be played.
It doesn't affect Pats (or me) one way or the other.
BohDiddley
09/08/2006, 3:05 PM
Does anyone favour a system that means their own club loses position in the league?
Certainly not. Why should they?
I think I hate anyone that dons a blazer in every sport.
does that include when the longford players wear them after and before a match?:D
placid casual
09/08/2006, 4:21 PM
"does that include when the longford players wear them after and before a match?"
is this a case of not knowing whether they are coming or going?
higgins
09/08/2006, 5:04 PM
If we could go back to the day Dublin City folded and left the league I would agree to the 1-0 win for everyone situation in the remaining fixtures.
My theory being that you either take away the points and punish the teams that have played and won or you award the 1-0 wins and punish the teams who have played and lost.
Its 50/50 on who you want to see lose out.
1 The teams who won
2 The teams who lost
Id agree with Dodge and go for walkovers until the end of the season.
Because the FAI jumped in and made a decision I'm kind of swaying the way of just shutting up and keeping things the way they are but maybe as a matter of principle it has to be challenged. Its unthinkable that the FAI just came up with a decision there and then and released it the same night of Dublin folding.
What should of happened is all 21 EL clubs got together to debate the issue and came up with a ruling that would be put in place for the next situation.
What the FAI did was wrong but it wasn’t so wrong that Id like to see Judge Judy get involved.
Longford and Shels challenged the decision to expunge the points, I agree with them doing that but I also agree that if they get told that’s the way it is going to be that they leave it there and accept it as another FAI mess.
Roverstillidie
09/08/2006, 5:39 PM
Still should have checked. Has nobody learned from our mistakes
turns out the FAI sent the letter informing shields of his suspension to the wrong address.
i believe he wasnt on the list of suspensions from the FAI either.
neither himself, his old or new club were aware of the suspension and the fai didnt mention it on registration. the onus is on the league to inform clubs and players, not the clubs to ask every week who they can play
and besides, its just a story in the press at the moment.
Well Derry now in the clear, O'Flynns extra suspension only applies to St. Pats and Cork http://irishfootballonline.com/news_story.php?newsid=5145
Dodge
09/08/2006, 11:14 PM
turns out the FAI sent the letter informing shields of his suspension to the wrong address.
Easily believe that.
Which makes me hate this league...
nshoop
09/08/2006, 11:19 PM
turns out the FAI sent the letter informing shields of his suspension to the wrong address.
i believe he wasnt on the list of suspensions from the FAI either.
.
It beggars belief!,and we're letting these run our league from next season,God help us:eek:
Was the letter sent directly to the player or via Rovers? Surely the league at least knows the addresses of its clubs?
dav_sfc
10/08/2006, 3:27 AM
Can we all just agree that we all want what is best for our own clubs situation?
No.
Does anyone favour a system that means their own club loses position in the league?
Yes...
See my post here....
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=502136#post502136
sonofstan
10/08/2006, 7:06 AM
Was the letter sent directly to the player or via Rovers? Surely the league at least knows the addresses of its clubs?
Not easy with Rovers, though...
charliesboots
10/08/2006, 8:37 AM
Well Derry now in the clear, O'Flynns extra suspension only applies to St. Pats and Cork http://irishfootballonline.com/news_story.php?newsid=5145
It was Sean Hargan apparently. He was suppose to be suspended for the Bohs game but played. Derry say they didn't receive notification until the following week and as a result didn't play him against Bray.
BohsPartisan
10/08/2006, 8:47 AM
No I want whatever hurts Shels the most. Either way it doesn't make a big difference to us.
BohDiddley
10/08/2006, 10:13 AM
It was Sean Hargan apparently. He was suppose to be suspended for the Bohs game but played. Derry say they didn't receive notification until the following week and as a result didn't play him against Bray.
Irish Times says they will lose six points for playing him knowing he was suspended, and three if it's found that they didn't know.
But do we have any redress on this match, and if not why not?
monutdfc
10/08/2006, 10:23 AM
But do we have any redress on this match
No. We were deducted 3 points for playing Jimmy Fullam while suspended v Athlone a couple of seasons ago. We won the game, Athlone got nothing.
and if not why not?
Don't know why not, but I think the rule book is pretty clear on this one at least.
swano
10/08/2006, 10:27 AM
Was the letter sent directly to the player or via Rovers? Surely the league at least knows the addresses of its clubs?
I'd imagine that Shiels was without a club when he received his suspension, hence the letter being sent to his house. Obviously open to correction if anyone knows the proper story.
Dodge
10/08/2006, 10:45 AM
Dedecuted 3 points for playing him, even though they didn't know he was suspended? WTF!?!?!
Raheny Red
10/08/2006, 10:45 AM
No I want whatever hurts Shels the most.
:D Love it ;) :cool:
BohDiddley
10/08/2006, 12:35 PM
No. We were deducted 3 points for playing Jimmy Fullam while suspended v Athlone a couple of seasons ago. We won the game, Athlone got nothing.
Don't know why not, but I think the rule book is pretty clear on this one at least.
If it had happened to Ollie I suppose it'd be heading to the European Court.
pineapple stu
10/08/2006, 12:39 PM
Both Drogheda and ourselves played Dublin City away in the first series. So why should be we penalised because, on the luck of the draw, we were drawn away to DC in the first series?
Actually, removing DC's first series games makes more sense than you'd think. You'd be cancelling everyone's second and third round games - i.e. one home and one away - so everyone loses equal games from their original fixture list and ends up with 16 home/15 away or vice versa. By removing all their games, some teams end up with 16 home games and 14 away games, and vice versa.
pineapple stu
10/08/2006, 12:41 PM
Irish Times says they will lose[...]three if it's found that they didn't know.
That's the biggest load of ****** I've ever heard, and God knows you hear some in this league. If they can prove they didn't know (e.g. postmark on the letter, etc), then they can't be punished. End of story. (Unless Ollie pushes really hard of course...)
Dave77
10/08/2006, 4:10 PM
Just wondering if we can have one season where there is no point deductions of any sort.
Every season someone loses points it just makes the league look like a joke. LOI clubs sort it out or the attandances will continue to suffer.
i think the decision to remove all results involving dcfc was correct as its the least complicated. even though some clubs might feel harddone its the fairest way and it dosnt effect the table in the slightest as no team gains or loses at the end of the day.
as regards the shamrock rovers point deductions, it is the responsibility of the clubs to check these things when they sign or field a player. thats the way it is in every league. it just seens too convenient for rovers that it got lost in the post.:D
Roverstillidie
13/08/2006, 1:53 PM
as regards the shamrock rovers point deductions, it is the responsibility of the clubs to check these things when they sign or field a player. thats the way it is in every league. it just seens too convenient for rovers that it got lost in the post.:D
we never said it got lost in the post, we assume it got sent to a defunct CHF who obviously didnt notify shields. it was an additional one game ban so the player and club assumed that the original ban had been seen out as no-one had been contacted in relation to the extra ban. the onus is on the league to notify players of suspensions and they officially havent yet. when rovers recieve notification that he is suspended, he wont play.
daniel
14/08/2006, 4:20 PM
The craic with Derry is that the FAI failed to notify Derry with a suspension for Sean Hargan therefore he was allowed to play on, without notification then the fAI have no rite to deduct point from Derry, if they do their decision will be overturned when we take it to court!
League table may need to be explained
Emmet Malone
15/08/2006
On Soccer: In most countries the people who put together league tables for the newspapers need only letters and numbers to complete their weekly chore. As often as not here in Ireland, it seems, the asterisk is central to the process.
As it happens they have been rather neglected so far this season but that may all be about to end for after what should be a hectic day of meetings in Merrion Square tomorrow tables published for the Premier Division of the Eircom League may well be littered with the things.
The desire of Shelbourne to see the points earned against the now-defunct Dublin City restored is the main reason.
It has the potential to result in a table that requires quite a lengthy explanatory footnote while Derry City's apparent error in playing Seán Hargan while he was supposed to be suspended recently may also require a line or two.
We should, of course, be getting used to this sort of thing and as usual the league has to take some responsibility for the mess it finds itself in.
Pointedly, it pretty much beggars belief that nobody anticipated a club would hit the rocks so violently that it would be in no position to comply with the organisation's rather quaint rule 6.4, which states clubs must give two months' notice of intention to resign and may do so only when the season has ended.
The words reflect noble intentions, to be sure, but hardly the reality of a league where at least a couple of clubs flirt with financial ruin each year and even the main administrator at the biggest and most successful outfit is far from a stranger to throwing the kettle on the hob when the Professional Footballers Association of Ireland drops around to sort out the issue of unpaid wages.
Still, those in charge of the league sought to retrospectively sort out the mess left by the untimely demise of Dublin City as best they could. Precedents are few but what few exist all appear to suggest that the club's results should be written out of the record books. And that's what was recommended to a meeting of the league's Board of Control last month.
It was subsequently argued that the board was the wrong committee to deal with the matter and that members associated with clubs standing to benefit from such a decision should have abstained on the matter. It is worth noting, however, that everybody present chose to follow the advice put before them and that those who favoured the action adopted included neutrals and an official of one club (Cork City) that actually lost ground in the title race as a result of the decision.
In any case, the suggestion by an appeals committee that the club's resignation should have been refused seems just a little unrealistic, while a compelling case has yet to be made for allowing a situation whereby the championship is decided in part on the basis of results achieved against a team no longer in existence.
Derry City effectively stand to benefit by three points in respect of their pursuit of Shelbourne if the current position is upheld at tomorrow's Management Committee - which, coincidentally, is the number of points they are most likely to be docked for their actions in the highly contentious Hargan affair.
The problem here centres on whether the club received notification of Hargan's suspension for accumulated bookings ahead of the Bohemians game and whether they subsequently played him against Waterford United after having been made aware, even informally, that he was the subject of a suspension.
Judging by the rules, as amended a couple of years ago, the league looks to be on fairly solid ground here. Notification must be sent either by fax or email, and the latter was apparently used in this instance because the club's fax machine was out of action.
The league can demonstrate that the message was sent and while the club insists it was not received, actually proving it appears to be their only hope of avoiding a penalty, and it is questionable whether that is possible.
City are already threatening legal action over the matter, and the frustration of Derry City manager Stephen Kenny and his players is entirely understandable.
The suspicion is, however, that whatever happens in relation to Dublin City, when the league table is next run on Saturday morning, Derry's name will indeed give the newspapers a reason to roll out the asterisk.
My understanding of the law on this is that if the League have proof of the sent e-mail, it has the same status as a registered letter. The only way Derry could prove they didn't receive it is if theri ISP records prove conclusively that it never came in - which I'd say is unlikely. Accidentally deleted or never opened probably won'r do them any good.
bigmac
15/08/2006, 9:25 AM
Malone makes a good point about CHF - why should anything in the final league standings be dependent on a team that isn't a part of the league? The final standings of a league table should depend (asterisks aside) on how each team performed agains the other teams in the table - the whole point of a league is to take a certain number of teams and organise them into a ranked, systematical order. CHF are not part of the league, so IMO let everything associated with them be expunged.
DmanDmythDledge
15/08/2006, 1:20 PM
If you can't resign from the league should Dublin City then not still be in the table? If they can't fulfil their remaining fixtures all clubs yet to play them should be given a walkover. That's how I see it anyway.
dcfc_1928
15/08/2006, 1:38 PM
I think that'll be right - if the League can prove the e-mail was sent, then we're fecked.
My understanding of the law on this is that if the League have proof of the sent e-mail, it has the same status as a registered letter. The only way Derry could prove they didn't receive it is if theri ISP records prove conclusively that it never came in - which I'd say is unlikely. Accidentally deleted or never opened probably won'r do them any good.
dcfc_1928
15/08/2006, 1:44 PM
For the geeks out there..........
How do you think the League would prove it was sent? Would they require logs from their mail server?
A copy of the original e-mail would not necessarily prove that it was actually sent successfully?
Where is the burden of proof? Is it up to the league to prove it was sent, or Derry to prove it was never received?
dcfcsteve
15/08/2006, 2:07 PM
For the geeks out there..........
How do you think the League would prove it was sent? Would they require logs from their mail server?
A copy of the original e-mail would not necessarily prove that it was actually sent successfully?
Where is the burden of proof? Is it up to the league to prove it was sent, or Derry to prove it was never received?
Anyone can send an email with any date on it, ffs !
Just alter the time and date on your computer's clock and off you go !
Ridiculous....
lofty9
15/08/2006, 2:47 PM
What's the craic with the broken fax machine story? The Fai would have had to have phoned someone at the club to be informed that the fax machine was not working, out of paper etc. I'm sure in those communications someone would have mentioned the suspension. I reckon people were too busy watching the world cup to send out the notifications, nor was there any press releases at the time relating to the suspension, or even in the build up/previews to the match.
daniel
15/08/2006, 3:45 PM
If this story is true this will be easily fixed,as there are plenty of faxes sent to plenty of other people from that very fax machine, therefore through fone records it should be able to show it was working!
charliesboots
15/08/2006, 3:54 PM
I think that to prove that a fax was sent the league/FAI will have to produce a fax confirmation sheet.
In the case of an e-mail, it is possible to flag them to ensure that it has been received. A copy of this may also be needed.
Under the Electronics Communication Act it is necessary to prove that the electronic communication actually entered the machine of the intended recipitent, not just that it was sent.
Records on the FAI Mail Server would prove that the email was sent. There is no reason for them to make this information up as could do the same thing with a fax. How could they FAI prove that Derry had received a fax anyway.
A simple policy of sending a weekly fax/email on a specific day would solve all this. The clubs can check their faxes/emails say every wednesday & notify the FAI if not received.
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