GAMA Documentary released by The Socialist Party and Framework Films

[BohsPartisan]

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77562
http://www.socialistparty.net/

[jebus]

I've never trusted anything with the Socialist Party (or any other political party) stamp on it so I'm going to give that movie a wide-berth. Reading the first half of the review the writer sounds like a member of the socialist party who is pretending not to be so as to draw in people like me who want nothing to do with that shower

[Block G Raptor]

Socialist party should be renamed the Protest bandwagon party. they have no pro-activity about them and they seem to base their mandate on whatever protest is popular at local level. Shower of muppets IMO
(P.S. I know joe higgins and Ruth Coppinger personally so I feel I'm qualified to make the above comment re their muppetry)

[BohsPartisan]

Well as a member (who also knows Joe and Ruth) I can tell you you are talking sh't.
If you read the "What we stand for" column in our paper or on our website, you'll see there is more to our politics than "whatever protest is popular".
When the Gama story was broken (by ourselves I might add) it was far from popular and we were warned to give it a wide berth that we'd never get anywhere with it, but we persevered and won.
And I can categorically say that the person who wrote the article, in their preamble shows a sufficient lack of knowledge of our political ideology for me to say that they are not a party member.


Socialist party should be renamed the Protest bandwagon party. they have no pro-activity about them and they seem to base their mandate on whatever protest is popular at local level. Shower of muppets IMO
(P.S. I know joe higgins and Ruth Coppinger personally so I feel I'm qualified to make the above comment re their muppetry)
I'm also guessing by the bitterness of your comments you are a member of one of the other Parties in the area. My first Guess would be you are a memeber of Labour and a supporter of Joan Burton (as that is similar to the ill informed tripe she comes out with when commenting on our party). Failing that I'd say you are a shinner. Care to comment?

[Block G Raptor]

I'm also guessing by the bitterness of your comments you are a member of one of the other Parties in the area. My first Guess would be you are a memeber of Labour and a supporter of Joan Burton (as that is similar to the ill informed tripe she comes out with when commenting on our party). Failing that I'd say you are a shinner. Care to comment?
Are u nuckin futs what bohs fan would support Joan "NIMBY" Burton
and Yes I'm an EX Shinner. but had this opinion of Higgins and Coppinger long before my brief foray into local poliitics with SF. if its any consolation in local elections id vote for either Joe or Ruth before that tool McDonald

[rebs23]

Does the documentary cover the fact that the Socialist Partys "brothers" in the brickies union BATU took a High Court challenge to the Registered Employment Agreement which meant the agreed rates in the industry could not be legally enforced thereby allowing GAMA to pay under the agreed rates?

Does the documentary also cover the numerous written complaints from contractros going back several years who were complaining that GAMA were securing contracts based on them paying their employees substantially below the agreed rates?

All of this was known in the industry for several years, Joe Higgins just got wind of it and used Dail privlege to make his accusations.

Hyprocricy just makes me sick from these people. BATU (a union closely linked with the Socalist Party) cause the sitaution and their political party then act the hero's in sortng it out. Socialism just another "ism".

[BohsPartisan]

Does the documentary cover the fact that the Socialist Partys "brothers" in the brickies union BATU took a High Court challenge to the Registered Employment Agreement which meant the agreed rates in the industry could not be legally enforced thereby allowing GAMA to pay under the agreed rates?

Ah the old myth of us "controlling" BATU of course made up by a SIPTU official with ties to the Labour Party.
On the other point GAMA had no legal fallback. That was proven by the outcome of the case.


Does the documentary also cover the numerous written complaints from contractros going back several years who were complaining that GAMA were securing contracts based on them paying their employees substantially below the agreed rates?

Yes it does. Whats your point? The contractors in question couldn't get proof of this. We did.


All of this was known in the industry for several years, Joe Higgins just got wind of it and used Dail privlege to make his accusations.

So what are you saying? It was a bad thing that Joe exposed the scandal in the Dail? The fact that it was common knowledge and still GAMA had a position on the Building Trade Federation executive (or whatever its called) and the Dublin Chamber of Commerce speaks volumes.


Socialism just another "ism".
If you are speaking in linguistic terms you are correct, otherwise the above statement is devoid of meaning (but I bet you think its very clever).

[BohsPartisan]

Does this sound like something from a Party that controlls BATU;
From THE SOCIALIST (Paper of the Socialist Party) May 2005


Union leaders fail GAMA workers

Besides the notable exception of the GAMA strikers, the Dublin Council of Trades Unions May Day March was a shocking indictment of the trade union leaders. It is ironic while the GAMA strikers made the May Day March in Dublin worthwhile for some left and union activists, have not been given the solidarity they needed from the tops of the unions in the construction industry.

The majority of GAMA workers have been in SIPTU for many years. Their lack of serious action on behalf of these workers has been disgraceful and is clearly recognised by the GAMA workers themselves. Around 40 GAMA carpenters were signed up to the Building and Allied Trades Union (BATU) early on in the strike with a real expectation, given the traditions of BATU that they would get serious backing from that union. Rank and file activists in both unions gave very important support and assistance. But in the make or break task of influencing Irish workers on the GAMA sites to take solidarity action in support of the GAMA workers, particularly at Tynagh, and in trying to force suppliers to stop deliveries to GAMA sites, SIPTU and BATU unfortunately did very little.

[rebs23]

Joe Higgins was on a BATU picket line earlier this year in the Collen Dispute. The Socialist Party have continually supported a trade union that has campaigned against the Registered Agreement for the last 10 years, the agreement which provides for agreed rates and conditions of employment far in excess of that available in other industries. Never stated that the Socialist Party controlled BATU. BATU can't even control themselves.

My point is that the Socialist Party continually state (including a review in the E.Echo) that they exposed GAMA. Joe Higgins said as much in an RTE News bulletin at the time. The fact is that Irish Contractors exposed GAMA and went on reccord to the Dept of Enteprise Trade and Employment of their concerns about the rates of pay within GAMA years beforehand.

GAMA never held any position within the builders federation, never heard they were members of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

Delighted the whole issue was eventually covered by the media but don't turn around and claim it was all your doing and then deny and cover up the fact that a trade union BATU (the smallest trade union in the construction industry) which always get support from the Socialist Party, was at serious fault in the whole affair by initiating a campaign and legal process which legally allowed contractors to pay rates below those agreed between the CIF and ICTU.

As I said already it makes me sick that BATU (a union closely linked with the Socalist Party) cause the sitaution and the Socialist party then act the hero's in "sortng it out."

As for socialism, it's dead, the Berlin wall is gone, the gulags are gone, castro is gone. I have a passionate hatred of it.

[BohsPartisan]

Joe Higgins supports Trade Union disputes. The Socialist Party also criticises trade unions when we feel they are making mistakes or bad decisions. This is shown in the above article I posted.
Building contracters "exposed" nothing. They had suspiscions which they couldn't prove. Their suspicions were based on the fact that GAMA were able to undercut everyone by several thousand. However there was no proof. Cllr. Mick Murphy and the South county dublin branch of the Socialist Party did the ground work that turned up the evidence to expose GAMA. All the while the Socialist Party were being critisised for investigating GAMA from every other councillor on SDCC and official trade union circles. The Labour Party Mayor Robert Dowds went on the record as saying that GAMA had no case to answer.
The basic fact is that if it wasn't for Joe Higgins, Mick Murphy and the Socialist Party, the Turkish workers would never have got their money and this would still be going on in GAMA.
Maybe you should watch the DVD or at least read the pamphlet before you try criticising it.
As for your comments on Socialism they are ill informed. There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.



Lenin's prediction of revolutionary turmoil throughout Europe after imperialist world war and the Russian revolution proved correct. Unfortunately all these attempts to overthrow capitalism were unsuccessful due partly to the revolutionary workers' mistakes and inexperience, but mainly due to betrayals by the leaders of the European socialist parties and trades unions.

This failure was not however pre-ordained; the outcome could only be determined during the struggle itself and, particularly in Germany, the situation was on a knife-edge. Nevertheless, the result was that the world's first workers' state was left isolated and impoverished. This development allowed a layer of demoralised and corrupt bureaucrats to consolidate their position, because by this time, only the intervention of the international working class, with its democratic traditions, could have dislodged them.

The new bureaucratic caste's wiping out of the remnants of democratic workers' control of society was ultimately to lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union itself.

Colossal wastage

In the early 1920s Russia's new government were forced to re-introduce a widespread capitalist market to revive the economy from the devastation inflicted on it. This successfully boosted food production but also created a new class of rich farmers called kulaks.

Socialist opponents of Stalin, particularly Leon Trotsky, warned that the kulaks' economic power would eventually grow so much that they would threaten the regime. Stalin ignored this for years, but then panicked when danger was imminent in the late twenties and took drastic steps to transform Russia from a predominantly agricultural to an industrial society.

A five-year plan was introduced to build up heavy industry at breakneck speed and a programme of repression implemented to "liquidate the Kulaks as a class". The new line was given an ideological cover under the slogan of building "socialism in one country", which consciously rejected the internationalism that until then was at the heart of socialist thinking.

Much to Stalin's surprise, the drive to industrialise made spectacular gains. Growth targets were raised every few months as production exceeded the plan. Within a decade the Soviet Union was an industrial giant rivalling the capitalist powers.

How was this achieved? This transformation was unprecedented - capitalist countries had taken centuries of development to get to this point. The driving force in Russia was the plan of production itself; freed from the shackles of the market system, then in its deepest crisis after the Wall Street crash. There seemed no limit to growth.

The allocation of resources directly by the state planning body, rather than by the "hidden hand" of market forces, ensured a staggering pace of growth.

But the downside to the economic miracle was the huge wastage, up to 30% of production, due to the bungling, corruption and bad planning inherent in the undemocratic command system of economic management. The quality of goods was bad; Trotsky called poor quality the 'Achilles heel' of the planned economy.

The only way round this problem was to introduce a democratic system of control over production where consumers would have real power to ensure that the goods produced were both fit for purpose and made in the right quantities.

The re-introduction of the soviets on democratic lines would have achieved this, but Stalin would not contemplate such a course. Any vestige of democracy would have threatened his regime which, despite the surface calm, was unstable.

Much of the new infrastructure to support industry was built by armies of slave labour political prisoners, where millions perished due to the fiendish conditions imposed on them. The survivors of the camps and the super-exploited workers would have taken a swift revenge if Stalin had loosened the noose for a moment.

[rebs23]

We are clearly in disagreement. I wonder would that be allowed in "democratic workers socialist republic"?
Anyway is this forum now a vehicle for free adverticements for political parties or a discussion forum?

[BohsPartisan]

Well it certainly got a discussion going.

We are clearly in disagreement. I wonder would that be allowed in "democratic workers socialist republic"?
The answer to that question is yes.

[Partizan]

There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.


Trot alert

[Lim till i die]

As for your comments on Socialism they are ill informed. There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.

Well if "real" socialism is what your party stand for I want no part in it. Living on a working class estate I've never had one of your "activists" come within an asses roar of my door in my entire life.

I seem to remember Joe Higgins getting very upset when some upper middle class Dublin types had to pay for their bins though :rolleyes:

You lot would no sooner be inside the door of a coalition government and you'd sell out quicker than you can say the words "Labour Party".

Ireland's sorely needs a credible party of the Left. At the moment it sure as hell isn't you guys.

Anyone have any alternatives for me :confused:

[BohsPartisan]

Well if "real" socialism is what your party stand for I want no part in it. Living on a working class estate I've never had one of your "activists" come within an asses roar of my door in my entire life.

I seem to remember Joe Higgins getting very upset when some upper middle class Dublin types had to pay for their bins though :rolleyes:

You lot would no sooner be inside the door of a coalition government and you'd sell out quicker than you can say the words "Labour Party".

Ireland's sorely needs a credible party of the Left. At the moment it sure as hell isn't you guys.

Anyone have any alternatives for me :confused:

1. We've only a small branch in Limerick its quite young in age profile. We had a candidate in the last local elections for the first time her name is Aishling Golden. The Socialist Party was only founded in 1996. Before that we were a trotskyist group inside the Labour Party called the Millitant tendency (Millitant was the name of our paper in those days).

2. Er have you ever been to Corduff, Mulhuddart, Blanch, Clonsilla i.e. Joe's heartland and the heart of the anti-bintax and anti-watercharge campaigns? Upper Middleclass they certainly aren't! :rolleyes:

3. You know nothing about us or our history if you think we'd join a coalition. We wouldn't join a coalition with Chavez ffs never mind Enda Kenny. When Joe was on the Labour party executive he opposed coalition with FG. Our constitution prevents us from joining a coalition and our public representatives are legally bound to uphold that. They can only take the average industrial wage so selling out would have no benefit. Having been an activist for many years in the SP, I have to say our leading members are the most self sacrificing bunch of people you are likely to meet.

You should find out what we are really about as you obviously haven't a clue. I never understand why people try getting in a debate without first getting their facts straight.

http://www.socialistparty.net

This is the site of the international organisation we are affiliated to.

http://www.socialistworld.net/

[BohsPartisan]

Trot alert

Spot the Stalinist. :p

[Roverstillidie]

while im no fan of the SP/CWI and their neo unionist ways, Limtillidie is at least 10 yards offside saying Joe Higgins represents the upper middle classes and I think the SP are very explicit about coalitions with FF &FG.

you dislike the left, fine, but get somewhere approaching the facts mate.

[pete]

I think the far left is dead in Ireland for now. Would need the effective end of full employment to get people back into socialism.

[BohsPartisan]

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. Full employment is one thing but the number of low paid jobs is sky-rocketing while the cost of stuff is also going up. Having said that I agree that Ireland in the current situation is difficult terrain for building the left. However I would posit that it is not as treacherous as it was in the mid ninetees.

[pete]

I wouldn't disagree that many low paid jobs in this country but people are not supposed to work in them for ever.

I noticed last week that something like 30,000 unemployed people in the 18-25 year old bracket & 150,000 total. Obviously some people will be in between jobs but there is no reason for 30,000 unemployed young people.

[Lim till i die]

1. We've only a small branch in Limerick its quite young in age profile. We had a candidate in the last local elections for the first time her name is Aishling Golden. The Socialist Party was only founded in 1996. Before that we were a trotskyist group inside the Labour Party called the Millitant tendency (Millitant was the name of our paper in those days).


I actually voted for her :eek: best of a very bad bunch

Still didn't so mcuh as put a leaflet through my letterbox during the campaign though. :(

Was after a few drinks last night and can only apologise for my (admitedly misplaced) cynicism :o

Thanks for the links, they've helped clear up a bit of the oul ignorance although I must admit I still find the whole dislike of Cuba thing a bit baffling tbh.

Anything I can do to help the Limerick branch for my penance seriously let me know, always make a point of signing their petitions in town and that but I've always found them a bit namby pamby tbh

[Lim till i die]

I wouldn't disagree that many low paid jobs in this country but people are not supposed to work in them for ever.

I noticed last week that something like 30,000 unemployed people in the 18-25 year old bracket & 150,000 total. Obviously some people will be in between jobs but there is no reason for 30,000 unemployed young people.

Well I'm 20 and during the college year I do a coure which requires roughly 45 to 50 hours a week effort so call me a layabout if you must but I just don't feel like working after that :p

BTW the grants system in this country, when compared to social welfare, is an absolute disgrace

[Roverstillidie]

Lim, ask him about

a: the north

b: israel and the palestine

and c: did they support the wall coming down.

you will get some surprising answers that you wouldnt have thought the left come out with

[Lim till i die]

Lim, ask him about

a: the north

b: israel and the palestine

and c: did they support the wall coming down.

you will get some surprising answers that you wouldnt have thought the left come out with

I'd imagine they'd be along the lines of

a: 32 counties please

b: bloody israeli facists murdering Palestinians

and c: no, not really

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Roverstillidie]

I'd imagine they'd be along the lines of

a: 32 counties please

b: bloody israeli facists murdering Palestinians

and c: no, not really

:confused: :confused: :confused:


you would imagine. and you would be wrong.

on both.

great work on the ground, crap dicated to them by the CWI, their international grouping that bizarrly tell them what to say on the national question, not the other way round.

[BohsPartisan]

A. Not true. I ignored the Neo-Unionist jibe before. Our main theorist on the Northern Question is Peter Hadden who is from Derry so policy on that is not dictated by the international. Just because we don't take the usual over-simplistic, catholics = good, protestants = bad approach does not make us somehow unionist. We believe in self determination for all people and don't believe that a united Ireland on a capitalist basis will improve the situation for working class people in the north. We see the national question as only being solvable by a workers republic. Whether that is on a federal basis with some autonomy for the north in the initial stages is up to the people of the north to decide. It is on the basis of this approach that we are the only party of the far left in recent years to make any impression in the north (allbeit a very small impression outside of trade union circles - where we have considerable influence).
B. On the middle east, we unequivically call for the Israeli troops out of the lebannon and the occupied territories. Our Israeli section calls for a federation of an israeli workers republic and a palestinian workers republic. Obliterating one side or the other will not solve the problem.
C. If you believe we supported the restoration of Capitalism in the east then you are listening to the sparts a bit too much. We were against the restoration of Capitalism and are against the restoration of Capitalism in Cuba, however we call for an ened to the dictatorships that have mismanaged the planned economy and for Workers' democracy.

Peter Hadden Beyond the Troubles
http://www.marxist.net/ireland/index.html

[jebus]

None of what I've read in this thread or on the Socialist party webpage has made me think anything other than the SP are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who will never be a legitimate force in Irish politics. I'm sure its supporters will say I don't know what I'm talking about, but really all I'm saying is an opinion, my opinion, so I think I know a bit more about that than the Socialists :)

[BohsPartisan]

Qualify your opinion that we are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers.

[jebus]

Qualify your opinion that we are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers.

Any cause that ten people in this country have a gripe about ye seem to produce banners and slogans within ten minutes and have a march from the Central Bank, well if you count 14 people and a drunk who's along for the ride as a march

[BohsPartisan]

Thats just silly. I can name plenty of "causes" we wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Yes we organise campaigns on issues that we support. What kind of a party would we be if we didn't do that? (One of the mainstream ones :p )
At least we are consistant, you'll see us out campaigning wether there's an election coming or not unlike the others. Take Labour for example - Joan Burton in particular. Quite as a mouse for 4 years then all of a sudden she remembers that she is supposed to do stuff. All of a sudden she's organising public meetings like there's no tomorrow. A classic case of Joan Burton bandwagon jumping was the estate management fees issue. Joe Higgins and Catherine Murphy (ind) first brought the issue into the public domain on being contacted by constituents (you'd imagine the constituents who contacted Joe would also have also contacted Joan. Yet there wasn't a peep out of her for about six months after the issue went media level. All of a sudden she's a contestant for campaigner of the year. A recent Prime Time on the issue saw the RTE CA team approach Socialist Party councillor Ruth Coppinger to get all the info for their programme. In effect Ruth did their work for them. When the programmme comes around Ruth gets a two minute recorded snippet and who's in the studio putting the world to rights on estate management fees? Joan Burton. Now thats what I call bandwagon jumping.

[Strabane_Harp]

A. Not true. I ignored the Neo-Unionist jibe before. Our main theorist on the Northern Question is Peter Hadden who is from Derry so policy on that is not dictated by the international. Just because we don't take the usual over-simplistic, catholics = good, protestants = bad approach does not make us somehow unionist. We believe in self determination for all people and don't believe that a united Ireland on a capitalist basis will improve the situation for working class people in the north. We see the national question as only being solvable by a workers republic. Whether that is on a federal basis with some autonomy for the north in the initial stages is up to the people of the north to decide. It is on the basis of this approach that we are the only party of the far left in recent years to make any impression in the north (allbeit a very small impression outside of trade union circles - where we have considerable influence).
B. On the middle east, we unequivically call for the Israeli troops out of the lebannon and the occupied territories. Our Israeli section calls for a federation of an israeli workers republic and a palestinian workers republic. Obliterating one side or the other will not solve the problem.
C. If you believe we supported the restoration of Capitalism in the east then you are listening to the sparts a bit too much. We were against the restoration of Capitalism and are against the restoration of Capitalism in Cuba, however we call for an ened to the dictatorships that have mismanaged the planned economy and for Workers' democracy.

Peter Hadden Beyond the Troubles
http://www.marxist.net/ireland/index.html


What bloody influence??? Im a left wing non voter from the north, the only Socialist Party ive seen here are the Socialist Party of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Your policy on the North is partitionist so you can forget ever getting anyone elected as

a) Unionists dont like socialists, too close to republicanism

b) Openly partitionist parties, ie Fine Gael, Labour, Socialist Party will never get support from the nationalist cimmunity. Parties like Provisional Sinn Fein and SD(NEW)LP dont openly admit to be partitionist but pretty much are.

as for having Influence in the North, you dont have any! and in fact Joe Higgins is not very popular in the north even among socialists

[BohsPartisan]

I said limited influence. We have some well known campaigners in North Belfast, Fermanagh and Omagh. We established the highly popular We Won't Pay Campaign which had cross community support and we have members on the NIPSA executive and the northern executive of the FBU. We have members from both sides of the community (The Editor of our paper for example is from East Belfast).
We are not partitonist. I have explained our position in the post you quoted. It is not a partionist position, please refer.

[Strabane_Harp]

Im aware of your members on the NIPSA board, i helped vote them in a few years ago when i was a waster, sorry i mean silly servant, sorry Civil Servant :p

And im involved in the We Wont Pay Campaign, but all the Socialist party members i can see in it are members of the UK branch.

and your northern policy is very etchy and comes across as partitionist for those who oppose the northern statelet.

The federal idea is whiped off Republican Sinn Fein's Eire Nua paper.

I will only vote for a party which clearly states they oppose the northern state and wish to join an all ireland socialist republic, sadly none of them are saying that so myself and thousands of other people just arent voting.

[Paddy Ramone]

The federal idea is whiped off Republican Sinn Fein's Eire Nua paper.



I read somewhere they whiped the idea of Anthony Coughlin member of Official Sinn Fein in the 60's.

[Strabane_Harp]

the Eire Nua policy was developed by Daithai O Conaill, in the early 70's and was official policy of Provisional Sinn Fein until 1983 when it was dumped by the Adams leadership as being 'a sop to unionists'
Republican Sinn Fein led by O'Conaill and O'Bradiagh re-instated it as policy after they refused the 1986 constitution change.

It was never Official Sinn Fein / Workers Party policy

[Paddy Ramone]

the Eire Nua policy was developed by Daithai O Conaill, in the early 70's and was official policy of Provisional Sinn Fein until 1983 when it was dumped by the Adams leadership as being 'a sop to unionists'
Republican Sinn Fein led by O'Conaill and O'Bradiagh re-instated it as policy after they refused the 1986 constitution change.

It was never Official Sinn Fein / Workers Party policy

Sorry I made a mistake, I don't think Coughlin was ever a member of Official Sinn Fein but he was a member of Sinn Fein before the split and helped devise the New Departure strategy of moving towards Socialism that led to the split. I did read somewhere that Coughlin proposed a Federal Republic back in the 60's.

[BohsPartisan]

Im aware of your members on the NIPSA board, i helped vote them in a few years ago when i was a waster, sorry i mean silly servant, sorry Civil Servant :p

And im involved in the We Wont Pay Campaign, but all the Socialist party members i can see in it are members of the UK branch.

and your northern policy is very etchy and comes across as partitionist for those who oppose the northern statelet.

The federal idea is whiped off Republican Sinn Fein's Eire Nua paper.

I will only vote for a party which clearly states they oppose the northern state and wish to join an all ireland socialist republic, sadly none of them are saying that so myself and thousands of other people just arent voting.

UK Branch? Anyone active in the North is a member of the Socialist Party (Ireland) We're an all Ireland party.

This is from our What We Stand For column:


Peace process
- Build a real peace process based on uniting the working class communities, not on bringing discredited politicians together.

- Joint trade union and community action to counter all forms of sectarianism.

- An end to all activity by all paramilitaries, loyalist and republican.

- Complete demilitarisation - establish genuine policing services that are locally based and under the control of democratically elected policing committees.

- The conflict cannot be resolved on a capitalist basis - for the building of a mass political party capable of uniting the working class in the struggle for a socialist solution.

- For a socialist Ireland as part of a free and voluntary socialist federation of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales

[Strabane_Harp]

Sorry I made a mistake, I don't think Coughlin was ever a member of Official Sinn Fein but he was a member of Sinn Fein before the split and helped devise the New Departure strategy of moving towards Socialism that led to the split. I did read somewhere that Coughlin proposed a Federal Republic back in the 60's.


Seamus Costello, founder member of the IRSP/INLA was behind that move i believe

[Strabane_Harp]

UK Branch? Anyone active in the North is a member of the Socialist Party (Ireland) We're an all Ireland party.

This is from our What We Stand For column:


so basically u would move the whole of ireland into a Union with Britain, and ye wonder why you wont get votes :cool:

[BohsPartisan]

Is that what it says? No its not. It would be the people of Ireland controlling the wealth of the nation and entering into a free federation not a union (a federation that would be a lot free'er than the EU) With Scotland, England and Wales.

[Roverstillidie]

Is that what it says? No its not. It would be the people of Ireland controlling the wealth of the nation and entering into a free federation not a union (a federation that would be a lot free'er than the EU) With Scotland, England and Wales.

do you not see the symbolic problem people have with rejoining a union with Britain?

Thats why the SP are labelled neo-unionists by the rest of the hard left and quite a distance away from other trots on imperialism in ireland and beyond

[Partizan]

As a card carrying member of the Workers' Party in Waterford, I find some of the SP's policies to be quite naff. Attacking Castro & Cuba ffs when his country and the socialist system is under siege from an imperialist bully-boy to the north that wants nothing less then total subjugation and all this talk of entering a federation with Britain. As a Republican Socialist I would have a real problem with that.

Though I must say Joe Higgins in my book is one of the few TD's in Dail Eireann that I truly admire.

[BohsPartisan]

Yes but its not rejoining a union with Britain. We are already in a Union with Britain. Its called the European Union.
The federation we talk of is federation of economic co-operation of workers' governments. Any Marxist party worth the name has to be for moving beyond national boundaries. You can't equate national relations under capitalism where one or two strong nations will always dominate a federation or union or whatever you want to call it with a federation under democratic Socialism, where workers' councils call the shots. If this was the case the Ukrainian communists in 1919 would not have been for federation with Russia - with whom they have a similar love hate relationship we do with England.

[Strabane_Harp]

Any idea of a union or federation with Britain is a non-starter.

The SP is living a dream is they ever think people will abandon a soverign republic for a re-union with our old imperial masters

[BohsPartisan]

See you are missing the point again. Its not abandoning the idea of a sovereign republic. Deal with the real issue and we might have a debate here.
Here is what we call for. A free independant Workers' republic with national rights for all. Then we call for a federation of free sovereign socialist republics.
A united Ireland on a capitalist basis is far more under the thumb of british and american imperialism than this model.

[Partizan]

Then we call for a federation of free sovereign socialist republics.
.

Pie in the sky stuff here. Load of idealistic nonsense which will simply never happen. What exactly will this federation of yours entail. What kind of political and economic power will our new socialist British masters exercise over us. Now my understanding of a federation runs something along the lines of Italy, Germany, Mexico, ex Yugoslavia etc. If you think we are going to give up any of our sovereignty you've got to be joking. Leave all the the talk about federation to the faceless Eurocats in Brussells.

Decry me and my Party but how about working along the lines of a socialist, secular and equal republic as envisaged by James Connolly, no more, no less.
The resources and the land of Ireland for the Irish people and for the Irish people alone.

If you want to express international socialist solidarity than why not follow Hugo Chaves model of close economic & diplomatic cooperation that he has with other South American states. No talk of the damn federations tosh.

Two questions to ask you.
1. Why does your party oppose the Cuban socialism?
2. What is your party's view on Chaves and indigenous Left in South America?

[BohsPartisan]

Pie in the sky stuff here. Load of idealistic nonsense which will simply never happen. What exactly will this federation of yours entail. What kind of political and economic power will our new socialist British masters exercise over us. Now my understanding of a federation runs something along the lines of Italy, Germany, Mexico, ex Yugoslavia etc. If you think we are going to give up any of our sovereignty you've got to be joking. Leave all the the talk about federation to the faceless Eurocats in Brussells.

Decry me and my Party but how about working along the lines of a socialist, secular and equal republic as envisaged by James Connolly, no more, no less.
The resources and the land of Ireland for the Irish people and for the Irish people alone.

If you want to express international socialist solidarity than why not follow Hugo Chaves model of close economic & diplomatic cooperation that he has with other South American states. No talk of the damn federations tosh.

Two questions to ask you.
1. Why does your party oppose the Cuban socialism?
2. What is your party's view on Chaves and indigenous Left in South America?


Partizan, stop and read my post. British masters my eye. We are already subordinate to British and American Capitalism. Your understanding of a Federation runs along the lines of Capitalist nation states not the Socialist model. What is pie in the sky is thinking Socialism in one country can be achieved. You betray your Stalinist ideology with this nonsense. The stanlinist experement has failed. Its time for real Marxist Internationalism.

On Cuba, we defend the economic basis of the Cuban state but not the dictatorship that rules it. We are for the democratisation of the Cuban workers' state on the model envisaged by Lenin in the "State and Revolution" as part of a Socialist Federation of Latin America.

On Venezuala, for your pleasure:

http://www.socialistworld.net/category/venezuela.html

[jebus]

See you are missing the point again. Its not abandoning the idea of a sovereign republic. Deal with the real issue and we might have a debate here.
Here is what we call for. A free independant Workers' republic with national rights for all. Then we call for a federation of free sovereign socialist republics.



But you see you're not dealing with the real world, and neither is your party, so it's very hard to have a debate on here. I'd love to see a free independent Worker's republic, but I've accepted, as has the majority who have realised just how enslaved we all are in this world, that this will never happen, ever. How do we shift the basis of power back to the individual's rights when the individual has nothing to do with capitalist society? Nor would it have anything to do with a practicing socialist society. I find it hard to argue with you on this because I can't believe that the Socialist party still believe that they can take on the capitalists and win by harping on and on about worker's rights, that revolution has been fought and won, and it wasn't won by you lot. I think that's why so many people find it hard not to sneer at the name of the Socialist party

[Strabane_Harp]

Pie in the sky stuff here. Load of idealistic nonsense which will simply never happen. What exactly will this federation of yours entail. What kind of political and economic power will our new socialist British masters exercise over us. Now my understanding of a federation runs something along the lines of Italy, Germany, Mexico, ex Yugoslavia etc. If you think we are going to give up any of our sovereignty you've got to be joking. Leave all the the talk about federation to the faceless Eurocats in Brussells.

Decry me and my Party but how about working along the lines of a socialist, secular and equal republic as envisaged by James Connolly, no more, no less.
The resources and the land of Ireland for the Irish people and for the Irish people alone.

If you want to express international socialist solidarity than why not follow Hugo Chaves model of close economic & diplomatic cooperation that he has with other South American states. No talk of the damn federations tosh.

Two questions to ask you.
1. Why does your party oppose the Cuban socialism?
2. What is your party's view on Chaves and indigenous Left in South America?


hmm i find myself in agreement with a sticky for the first time in my 23 years :eek:

[BohsPartisan]

See there were alot of bourgeois around the time of the rennaissance saying, we'll never have our bourgeois republic so we may as well resign ourselves to feudalism. You have to take the long view of history to see what can happen in the future.
To quote Mumia Abu Jamal, "Contrary to popular belief, conventional wisdom would have one believe that it is insane to resist this, the mightiest of empires.... But what history really shows is that today's empire is tomorrow's ashes, that nothing lasts forever, and that to not resist is to acquiesce in your own oppression. The greatest form of sanity that anyone can exercise is to resist that force that is trying to repress, oppress, and fight down the human spirit"