View Full Version : Shels & Longford to appeal points loss?
sligoman
22/07/2006, 4:06 PM
Shelbourne and Longford Town, two of the club’s most adversely affected by the decision to expunge the results of Dublin City’s 17 Premier Division games this season, are reportedly considering an appeal to the league authorities.
The league opted to declare null and void the Vikings’ league results in the wake of the club’s resignation earlier this week.
That move saw Shels drop six points – enough to see them fall from first to third in the Premier Division standings – while struggling Longford saw their tally drop from 14 to 10.
According to a report in Friday’s Irish Daily Mirror, both clubs have written to the league to enquire whether the decision was taken strictly in accordance with the eircom League rule-book.
Pending the league’s response, the clubs could consider launching a formal appeal against the decision.
Champions Cork City were also badly hit by the league reshuffle, also losing the six points they had gained against Dublin City this season and dropping from second place to fourth.
http://www.elevenaside.com/premier/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=23553
RonnieB
22/07/2006, 4:49 PM
TBH I think it should be left as is. If you give teams the points they had then other teams cant make the points up as there is no one to play.
Anto McC
22/07/2006, 4:54 PM
TBH I think it should be left as is. If you give teams the points they had then other teams cant make the points up as there is no one to play.
Agreed!
Agreed!
Were you not going crazy at Shels "losing" points?
Anyway, its standard procedure in other leagues so it should be done here. You know, proper leagues, ones woth proper rule books
Drumcondra Red
22/07/2006, 5:32 PM
In fairness that was me! But the first round of matches should stand...
bohs til i die
22/07/2006, 5:54 PM
In fairness that was me! But the first round of matches should stand...
the first round of matches cannot be allowed to stand. Dublin City played some teams at home, others away so what if Shels end up playing 17 home games and 14 away and Derry lose the league by a point having played 15 home/16 away or 14 home/17 away?
Removing all trace of DCFC and deciding the league table on the 30 games each team plays against the other 10 teams is the only way it should be done.
CharlesThompson
22/07/2006, 6:17 PM
the first round of matches cannot be allowed to stand. Dublin City played some teams at home, others away so what if Shels end up playing 17 home games and 14 away and Derry lose the league by a point having played 15 home/16 away or 14 home/17 away?
Removing all trace of DCFC and deciding the league table on the 30 games each team plays against the other 10 teams is the only way it should be done.
Sensible.
Roverstillidie
22/07/2006, 6:56 PM
for once i agree with btid
If they do appeal, i wudnt be suprised if Ollie got his way. He has a knack of it!! :mad:
Speranza
22/07/2006, 7:54 PM
Putting aside the above posts, DCFC amassed points unfairly in that they were living beyond their realistic means. They took points off teams with a squad they wouldn't have been able to assemble if licencing was used to full effect.
Putting aside the above posts, DCFC amassed points unfairly in that they were living beyond their realistic means. They took points off teams with a squad they wouldn't have been able to assemble if licencing was used to full effect.
So we're going to exspunge all results from practically every club in the league...
The alternative option is to keep the existing points & award 3 points for all future Dublin City games.
As a fan i feel cheated that i paid in at a game that now for all purposes never existed. Of course i have no bias in this...
De Town
22/07/2006, 10:10 PM
the first round of matches cannot be allowed to stand. Dublin City played some teams at home, others away so what if Shels end up playing 17 home games and 14 away and Derry lose the league by a point having played 15 home/16 away or 14 home/17 away?
Removing all trace of DCFC and deciding the league table on the 30 games each team plays against the other 10 teams is the only way it should be done.
Sums it up perfectly for me.
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 9:41 AM
when a club can't field a team for a game, it's declared a walk-over. is that not exactly whats happening here, and yet the eL are trying to act as if dublin city never existed?
Let the exisiting points stand. let everyone get their walkovers and 1+ goal difference so that its even. it may not be perfectly fair but its hardly perfectly fair to reward the teams who lost points and punish the teams who went out and beat them. between myself and my girlfriend we spent about €100 going to see us stuff dublin city 4-0. since we're acting as if the games never happened, can we get €20 back please? i assume the clubs will recieve a refund for match referee payments too, right? all bookings and suspensions recieved v DC negated, and those who served a suspension against them will get their bans back? and maybe those who received injuries against them could get some magic healing.
acting as if the games never happened is ludicrous and a mockery of our league. if shels or city lose the league by 3 points, i'll be disgusted.
Gareth
23/07/2006, 9:57 AM
I think we can all agree that no matter what is done, someone will feel agrieved. The removal of Dublin City has a nightmare consequence if clubs do appeal against yellows, reds, payments etc. Because there is no way we can alter time. Then again the awarding of automatci three points will annoy the teams who lost points by playing and the same "three point" argument follows, however all the top teams played DC twice so it will have less effect that removing the points.
Shels, Cork and Longford have a point, but the question is, so what if they do because is there a solution they can provide that will not just shift the loss to other clubs. Having said that, I believe there is a possibility the league didn't follow correct procedure with this.
Anto McC
23/07/2006, 10:02 AM
Having said that, I believe there is a possibility the league didn't follow correct procedure with this.
How is that Gareth?
A Bohs fan on Shelsweb said that the league simply followed the rules,if this is the case i can't argue against their decision but if it isn't the case i will be p*ssed and would probably support the club in any legal action they wish to take!
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 10:08 AM
Shels, Cork and Longford have a point, but the question is, so what if they do because is there a solution they can provide that will not just shift the loss to other clubsso the disadvantage would shift away from teams who actually beat them to teams who managed to drop points gainst them. (people are saying its unfair that some teams have already played them twice. it wouldnt be a disadvantage if you played them twice and beat them twice!) holy god that sounds like common sense, no hope of that happening so.
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 10:12 AM
How is that Gareth?the only precedent i'm aware of for something like this is Servette in switzerland, and the other teams were awarded walkovers for their remaining games.
if this years performance in europe earns ireland a seeding in the CL qualifying next year, and Cork City miss out because of a blunder like this, i can see a loss-of-income law suit arising from it. with the aid of seeding i can see Shels or Cork progressing to the third qualifying round again next year, i cant see derry or drogs doing that :(
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 10:19 AM
I think we can all agree that no matter what is done, someone will feel agrieved. The removal of Dublin City has a nightmare consequence if clubs do appeal against yellows, reds, payments etc. Because there is no way we can alter time. Then again the awarding of automatci three points will annoy the teams who lost points by playing and the same "three point" argument follows, however all the top teams played DC twice so it will have less effect that removing the points.
Shels, Cork and Longford have a point, but the question is, so what if they do because is there a solution they can provide that will not just shift the loss to other clubs. Having said that, I believe there is a possibility the league didn't follow correct procedure with this.
Gareth
The league cannot just make a decision based on the "top teams" having played DCFC twice. There is now 11 teams in the league and the table should be decided by results involving those 11 teams playing the other 10 teams 3 times.
You seem to want the league to do what suits Shels, I think the league has to do what is best for the league, what is the fairest way to all 11 teams.
Can you explain why you think the league didnt follow "correct procedure"?
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 10:20 AM
the only precedent i'm aware of for something like this is Servette in switzerland, and the other teams were awarded walkovers for their remaining games.
if this years performance in europe earns ireland a seeding in the CL qualifying next year, and Cork City miss out because of a blunder like this, i can see a loss-of-income law suit arising from it. with the aid of seeding i can see Shels or Cork progressing to the third qualifying round again next year, i cant see derry or drogs doing that :(
Aldershot went out of existance about 12 years ago and the English FA removed all results involving them from the records, after 40 rounds of a 46 round league.
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 10:24 AM
when a club can't field a team for a game, it's declared a walk-over. is that not exactly whats happening here, and yet the eL are trying to act as if dublin city never existed?
Let the exisiting points stand. let everyone get their walkovers and 1+ goal difference so that its even. it may not be perfectly fair but its hardly perfectly fair to reward the teams who lost points and punish the teams who went out and beat them. between myself and my girlfriend we spent about €100 going to see us stuff dublin city 4-0. since we're acting as if the games never happened, can we get €20 back please? i assume the clubs will recieve a refund for match referee payments too, right? all bookings and suspensions recieved v DC negated, and those who served a suspension against them will get their bans back? and maybe those who received injuries against them could get some magic healing.
acting as if the games never happened is ludicrous and a mockery of our league. if shels or city lose the league by 3 points, i'll be disgusted.
Gavin, the FAIREST way to decide the league is by results between the 11 teams competing from start to finish.
There is no solution that is absolutely fair across the board, so by removing all results from the league table is as close as it will get.
If Cork or Shels are relying on points won against DCFC to win the title then you dont deserve to win it.
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 10:39 AM
Gavin, the FAIREST way to decide the league is by results between the 11 teams competing from start to finish.
There is no solution that is absolutely fair across the board, so by removing all results from the league table is as close as it will get. whats unfair about giving everyone a walkover against them?
If Cork or Shels are relying on points won against DCFC to win the title then you dont deserve to win it.:rolleyes: 3 points is three points... except in the eircom league where its a waste of time money and effort, apparantly.
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 10:45 AM
whats unfair about giving everyone a walkover against them?
:rolleyes: 3 points is three points... except in the eircom league where its a waste of time money and effort, apparantly.
Because some teams would be getting 6 points, other teams would be getting 3. Dublin City were doing OK this season and would have picked up points all the way.
I never said the solution was ideal, but in the grand shceme of things there is no fairer way then to decide the league based on what the 11 clubs do in 30 games against the other 10 teams in the table, having played each other three times.
Removing DCFC's record is as fair as it can be.
Dodge
23/07/2006, 10:56 AM
Removing DCFC's record is as fair as it can be.
And is standard practice throughout europe (thimk Reitoir posted a list elsewhere)
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 10:57 AM
I never said the solution was ideal, but in the grand shceme of things there is no fairer way then to decide the league based on what the 11 clubs do in 30 games against the other 10 teams in the table, having played each other three times.acting as if the dublin city games never happened throws up a hundred other things which DID impact on games dublin city werent involved in. it also "robs from the rich, gives to the poor", pretty much punishing teams for putting effort into beating a very poor side.
i realise things wouldnt be perfect either way. you say its unfair that a few sides would be awarded 3 "extra" points; how is it fair that a few teams should be deducted 6?
the only thing im certain of in all this is that i fvcking hate Ronan Seery.
Réiteoir
23/07/2006, 11:47 AM
Amateur Football League
Rule 17:
Should a club or team fail to complete its arranged fixtures, it shall have its complete record expunged.
FA Barclaycard Premiership
Rule 12:
If any Club ceases during the Season to be a member of the League, the record of the League Matches in which it has participated that Season shall be expunged from the table and the number of Clubs to be relegated at the end of that Season shall be reduced so as to maintain at 20 (or, if less, as near thereto as may be) the number of Clubs in membership of the League at the beginning of the next Season.
1961-62 Season:
Accrington Stanley resigned from the league after 33 games.
Their results were expunged.
1991-92 Season:
Aldershot withdrew after 36 games, all results expunged.
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 11:53 AM
oh thats ok then, the english do it so its right.
Réiteoir
23/07/2006, 12:00 PM
first one is from the AFL in Dublin btw
Plastic Paddy
23/07/2006, 12:13 PM
oh thats ok then, the english do it so its right.
Lose the shoulder chip Gavin; the English set-up is the one with which most people are familiar and there is prevous form on which to call, hence England being used as an example.
In addition to the previous cases cited, Newport County resigned from the Conference in 1988/89 halfway through the season (they had played 20-odd of 42 games) and their record was expunged. This had a direct impact on one of my team-mates (I played youths and reserves for Barnet) at the time, Gary Abbott, who had become the first player since the Second World War to score hat-tricks in three consecutive English first-class fixtures only to see one of them wiped out as the away match at Newport (which we won 7-1 incidentally) was deleted from the record. And who - apart from afficionadi of the English non-league game - has heard of Abbott since? It could have been quite different if the record had stood.
So the precedent exists and has been consistently applied across the water (or in my case, on this side of it). Whether the eircom League follows suit or bows to the pressure of two obviously self-interested clubs remains to be seen.
:ball: PP
Réiteoir
23/07/2006, 12:16 PM
I can post excerpts of rule books from Canada, the US, Australia, etc. which state the same thing if you want
Raheny Red
23/07/2006, 12:20 PM
first one is from the AFL in Dublin btw
Yeh, don't I know, 3 teams left my division last season. 3 ffs.
RonnieB
23/07/2006, 12:35 PM
I can post excerpts of rule books from Canada, the US, Australia, etc. which state the same thing if you want
I wouldnt waste your time. As im sure it would be wasted on him.
GavinZac
23/07/2006, 12:56 PM
I wouldnt waste your time. As im sure it would be wasted on him.:rolleyes:
no-one's answered yet, whats the story with suspensions, etc?
can i claim my money back from the administration, since i paid for a product/service and didnt recieve it, apparantly?
green-blood
23/07/2006, 1:05 PM
all yellow cards/red stand
no you cant claim your money back
phew, glad thats sorted
Gareth
23/07/2006, 1:54 PM
Gareth
The league cannot just make a decision based on the "top teams" having played DCFC twice. There is now 11 teams in the league and the table should be decided by results involving those 11 teams playing the other 10 teams 3 times.
You seem to want the league to do what suits Shels, I think the league has to do what is best for the league, what is the fairest way to all 11 teams.
Can you explain why you think the league didnt follow "correct procedure"?
I do not think what I said suggests I want the league to suit Shels. I stated that no matter what way you do this someone will feel at a disadvantage. Remove the Bohs glasses and read my post again. I was just thinking out loud different possiblities. Its all 10 teams now btw.
Amateur Football League
Rule 17:
Should a club or team fail to complete its arranged fixtures, it shall have its complete record expunged.
If a similar rule existed in the eL rule book i doubt anyone would be appeling the decision. Based on that logic i assume no such clear-cut rule exists. A precedent in other countries does not really matter although a precedent in the eL may.
It seem unfair for yellow & red cards accrued in Dublin City games to stay (this would benefit teams that have only played Dublin City once) at the same time removing the points earned.
:confused:
Moderator: Can we keep this on topic for a change?
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 6:14 PM
acting as if the dublin city games never happened throws up a hundred other things which DID impact on games dublin city werent involved in. it also "robs from the rich, gives to the poor", pretty much punishing teams for putting effort into beating a very poor side.
i realise things wouldnt be perfect either way. you say its unfair that a few sides would be awarded 3 "extra" points; how is it fair that a few teams should be deducted 6?
the only thing im certain of in all this is that i fvcking hate Ronan Seery.
Gareth
I follow Bohs. We played DCFC once. We won. If the league did things your way Bohs would be given 6 points for nothing. I dont think that is a fair way of doing things. Hardly Bohs goggles.
Gav
Some teams will lose 3, others 4 or 6. Your argument is based on Cork beating Dublin City twice. I think you'd be singing a different tune of Cork had not won either of those 2 games.
There is no other way to do this that is as close to being fair to all involved. What if a player got injured against DCFC in the 2nd game against DCFC and missed gameswhile other clubs are given 3/6 points for not having to risk injury?
There is no clear way of doing it, but by removing all results from the table it makes it as level a playing field as possible. That way the final table is decided by results involving those who played al 30 games.
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 6:17 PM
acting as if the dublin city games never happened throws up a hundred other things which DID impact on games dublin city werent involved in. it also "robs from the rich, gives to the poor", pretty much punishing teams for putting effort into beating a very poor side.
how does it rob from the rich and give to the poor?
all yellow cards/red stand
This is what makes no sense.
These players were carded in a game that was expunged so technically didnt happen.
Wheres the consistency??
bohs til i die
23/07/2006, 6:31 PM
How is that Gareth?
A Bohs fan on Shelsweb said that the league simply followed the rules,if this is the case i can't argue against their decision but if it isn't the case i will be p*ssed and would probably support the club in any legal action they wish to take!
that was an assumption on my part. I got a phonecall from a few Bohs directors on Wednesday afternoon and was told that the league were meeting that evening and that they will remove all DCFC results from the records. I assumed that was because the rules were specific but it might not be the case.
Gareth
23/07/2006, 7:46 PM
I believe they may have not followed correct protocol. But I imagine the result of following correct protocol would have been the same.
Bohs TID, I think you are misinterpreting me. I was merely seeing what other options existed, they are not what I think SHOULD happen. I have now stated in two posts that I think there is no real fair way, only differing levels of effect to different clubs.
But if I was to rpely to your point, being a devils advocate, you could argue that the fact teams played mroe games than Bohs is fair either, but well it was one or the other. If they picked the other option I am sure other clubs would appeal :) Its a situation were there are no right solutions but we have to live with one!!
bohs til i die
24/07/2006, 7:18 AM
I believe they may have not followed correct protocol. But I imagine the result of following correct protocol would have been the same.
Bohs TID, I think you are misinterpreting me. I was merely seeing what other options existed, they are not what I think SHOULD happen. I have now stated in two posts that I think there is no real fair way, only differing levels of effect to different clubs.
But if I was to rpely to your point, being a devils advocate, you could argue that the fact teams played mroe games than Bohs is fair either, but well it was one or the other. If they picked the other option I am sure other clubs would appeal :) Its a situation were there are no right solutions but we have to live with one!!
but by removing all record of DCFC is fair on all clubs. That way, the league is decided by the results of the 30 games the 11 teams each play against the other 10 who completed the whole season.
Having a league were some teams get 6 free ponts and others get just 3 is unbalanced.
If Shels had drawn twice with DCFC and Derry, Drogheda and Cork all got 6 points from DCFC would Shels be appealing the removal of all DCFC points/goals from the records? I doubt it.
Bottom line is the league had a decision to make, they made a quick and efficient decision based [presumably] on being fair across the board and they also have a few precedents around Europe to back them up.
If Shels finish behind Derry by a few points at the end of the season its because your record against the other 10 teams wasnt as good as Derry's. IMO thats as fair as it can be.
I think the league made the right call, even though it suits Bohs to have another 9 points then we currently have as a result of DCFC's departure. We would gain some ground on Sligo but I dont think its fair to include results of a team who only completed half the season.
The standard, fair and natural thing to do is expunge Dublin City's results. Yeh, its a pain in the arse for those clubs who went and actually beat them, but such is life. Aldershot is the best example.
The Servette situation was different- there were no walk-overs awarded. AFAIK they folded during the winter break. The clubs had all played each other once home and away before the winter break, so every club had played 9 home and 9 away against the same opposition. After the winter break the remaining 9 clubs played each other home and away again, so ended up playing 34 games in the league (1 each home and away v Servette, 2 each home and away against every other club)
by the way, I'm neutral here... I hate Shels, Cork, Drogs and Derry! ;)
bigmac
24/07/2006, 10:06 AM
the first round of matches cannot be allowed to stand. Dublin City played some teams at home, others away so what if Shels end up playing 17 home games and 14 away and Derry lose the league by a point having played 15 home/16 away or 14 home/17 away?
Yeah, would be a disgrace if Derry lost the league because they had to play an extra away match against their rivals....
...oh wait a minute....
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