View Full Version : Vikings boss blasts summer soccer
paudie
21/07/2006, 12:58 PM
the naysayers simply say it's only because we've a fitness advantage not because of skill level of the league having improved.
Surely anyone not giving the clubs doing well in Europe any credit would never contemplate going to an EL game anyway and aren't relevant to a winter/summer soccer debate.
They just think the EL is ****e. Full Stop
Surely anyone not giving the clubs doing well in Europe any credit would never contemplate going to an EL game anyway and aren't relevant to a winter/summer soccer debate.
They just think the EL is ****e. Full Stop
But isn't that the point? We were sold summer football on the basis of better European results will increase the leagues credibility and thus increase attendances. That hasn't happened on either count imo.
Ozymandias
21/07/2006, 1:04 PM
Name me 3 towns in England that are larger than Limerick and where rugby union is the main sport ? (I specify 'Union', because we don't have league in Ireland.)
There's more than enough room for Eircom league soccer in Ireland vis-a-vis other sports. The thousands of people from the island who head to games in England/Scotland every weekend should be proof enough of this.
Leicester,Bath, Northampton , Gloucester
sorry Just saw rogues point...There is an issue of Population as well.....Name me three Counties in ireland where soccer is the main sport....Gaa is our national game ..scandinavian countries do not have another team sport as well supported as GAA to contend with..the GAA whether u like it or not does affect our attendances..if the GAA wasn't there then you would be comparing like with like
on our recent trip to finland hjk supporters spoke about the exact same problems regerding icehockey .Its the main draw over there like gaa is here .They reckon the powers that be dont give a toss about soccer .
dcfcsteve
21/07/2006, 1:24 PM
Leicester,Bath, Northampton , Gloucester
The question was : name me 3 towns in England that are larger than Limerick and where rugby union is the main sport ?
The first sport in Leicester is football.
Bath is smaller than Limerick (particularly as Bath city has no environs/satellite towns that are/can be considered part of it, hereas Limerick does).
Glioucester is definitely right.
Northampton arguably so (soccer is as popular there as rugby, as a lot of the population follow teams other than Northampton. They just happen to have a more successful rugby than football team).
So there's 2 out of 4 from your list.
Name me three Counties in ireland where soccer is the main sport
Unfair to make it counties rather than towns/cities, given that soccer is a primarily urban phenomenon and GAA a primarily rural one. But ignoring this inherent bias in your question, I'll give it a go.
Derry - yes.
Antrim - yes.
Sligo - yes (the town at least).
Dublin - yes, and don't even debate it. Hill 16 or not, Dublin is primarily a soccer-loving town. Maybe not Irish soccer, but that wasn't the question.
Down - almost certainly.
Schumi
21/07/2006, 1:35 PM
The rrpoblem with attendances isn't with comnpetition from other sports, it's with people watching football on TV and supporting foreign teams over their own.
ifk101
21/07/2006, 1:38 PM
One word. Denmark.
Norway is probably a better example as Norway's population is only around 300,000 higher than ours.
dcfcsteve
21/07/2006, 1:44 PM
The rrpoblem with attendances isn't with comnpetition from other sports, it's with people watching football on TV and supporting foreign teams over their own.
In a nutshell.
As most other countries show - unless there's a direct scheduling clash, people have no problems going to watch multiple sports live.
If Man united moved to Dublin tomorrow they'd sell out every week, and the GAA attendnaces would suffer little or no negative impact.
Cork people will go to Turners cross in decent numbers, and then in the same weekend flock to Parc Ui Rinn/Thurles/Croker/wherever for hurling or football.
It's not about other sports - it's about the Irish attitude to domestic football. End of story.
ifk101
21/07/2006, 1:46 PM
Swedish and Norwegian football has to compete with the very popular activities of (Ice) Hockey and sitting in the sauna with naked chicks and still does ok.
Ice Hockey isn't much of a sport in Norway, cross-country skiing would be their national sport. It's only really the Finns and Swedes that play ice-hockey in Scandinavia. Athletics, handball, bandy, naked chicks in saunas and tango dancing are the other main sports in Scandinavia.
Ozymandias
21/07/2006, 1:52 PM
The question was : name me 3 towns in England that are larger than Limerick and where rugby union is the main sport ?
The first sport in Leicester is football.
Bath is smaller than Limerick (particularly as Bath city has no environs/satellite towns that are/can be considered part of it, hereas Limerick does).
Glioucester is definitely right.
Northampton arguably so (soccer is as popular there as rugby, as a lot of the population follow teams other than Northampton. They just happen to have a more successful rugby than football team).
So there's 2 out of 4 from your list.
Unfair to make it counties rather than towns/cities, given that soccer is a primarily urban phenomenon and GAA a primarily rural one. But ignoring this inherent bias in your question, I'll give it a go.
Derry - yes.
Antrim - yes.
Sligo - yes (the town at least).
Dublin - yes, and don't even debate it. Hill 16 or not, Dublin is primarily a soccer-loving town. Maybe not Irish soccer, but that wasn't the question.
Down - almost certainly.
Soccer loving and soccer attending are two different things...we were talking about attendances..more people in Derry, Dublin and Sligo attend GAA than soccer..won't comment on antrim and Down as they are not in the EL...we are slowly but surely going off point...if you apply yorur dublin reason then Leicester is a rugby loving city and Rugby is number one there
Cork is a soccer loving city yet the GAA is bigger all round ....
I think you have drained the life out of my post and I am not sure what your point is...I refer to mine that idf the GAA was not there Attendances at soccer would be bigger and the Scandinavian countries do not have a national sport as big as the GAA to contend with and as a result their leagues are stronger nationally attendance wise
Schumi
21/07/2006, 2:13 PM
if the GAA was not there Attendances at soccer would be bigger
I doubt the difference would be significant. Football attendances are no better outside of the GAA season.
BohsPartisan
21/07/2006, 2:14 PM
Plus GAA attendances are down this year
dcfcsteve
21/07/2006, 2:34 PM
Soccer loving and soccer attending are two different things...we were talking about attendances..
But now you've shifted the goal posts ! You're original question was : "Name me three Counties in ireland where soccer is the main sport". I named you 5. Now you're saying you are talking about attendances, which is not only a very different question but a meaningless one. We all know that soccer in Ireland is exponentially more popular than attendnaces at EL games alone suggest, so that would be a silly point to make anyway. I'll bet there's more Man United jersies sold in Ireland every year than the combined attendances at all EL games across the same period, which shows how pointless looking at EL attendnces is in measuring the popularity of soccer in Ireland.
more people in Derry, Dublin and Sligo attend GAA than soccer..
I think you may well be wrong on at least Derry there. There are 4 senior football clubs in the county - each playing 20 or more home games a season, and a similar number away. The GAA probably play no more than 8 home games a season in Co Derry max. I'm sure if you added up the attendances, the active soccer crowd in Co Derry would be bigger than the active GAA crowd. And that's before we get onto the fact that attendances for soccer in ireland don't in any way reflect the real popularity of the game.
if you apply yorur dublin reason then Leicester is a rugby loving city and Rugby is number one there
How ? Leicester is a rugby loving town, but soccer is by-far the most popular sport there in every way. The football stadium there has a capacity almost exactly double that of the rugby stadium, and Leicester City's average home gate last season was 135% higher than the capacity of the rugby stadium ! Leicester is actually proof that it is possible for 2 different sports to both secure big crowds in the same small city - something you're suggesting just couldn't happen.
I think you have drained the life out of my post and I am not sure what your point is...I refer to mine that idf the GAA was not there Attendances at soccer would be bigger and the Scandinavian countries do not have a national sport as big as the GAA to contend with and as a result their leagues are stronger nationally attendance wise
I haven't drained the life out of your post - it was anaemic to begin with. You're asserting that the presence of GAA is a big factor in soccer attendances in Ireland being so poor. I'm saying that this is nonsense. The fact that until recently soccer and gaelic in Ireland were played to completely different seasons shows just how off-the-mark your comment is. Why weren't crowds significantly bigger under Winter football then ? Football in Ireland is in an almost unique positon - not because of the presence of the GAA, but because of the mind-set of most of the soccer-mad Irish public towards their own domestic brand of the game.
Ozymandias
21/07/2006, 3:31 PM
But now you've shifted the goal posts ! You're original question was : "Name me three Counties in ireland where soccer is the main sport". I named you 5. Now you're saying you are talking about attendances, which is not only a very different question but a meaningless one. We all know that soccer in Ireland is exponentially more popular than attendnaces at EL games alone suggest, so that would be a silly point to make anyway. I'll bet there's more Man United jersies sold in Ireland every year than the combined attendances at all EL games across the same period, which shows how pointless looking at EL attendnces is in measuring the popularity of soccer in Ireland.
You named me towns ..I didn't shift any goal posts re attendances you use attendances as your reason for leicester see below yet u use soccer loving public as your reason for Dublin...One based on attendance the other on an assumption..i replied with Cork being a soccer loving city but GAA is bigger attendance wise.. I also stated that we are not treating like with like as in England there is a major Population and Geographical difference to Ireland and Also that Soccer is considered there National sport...therefore soccer in England and Scandinacvia do not have to compete with that countries national sport
I
How ? Leicester is a rugby loving town, but soccer is by-far the most popular sport there in every way. The football stadium there has a capacity almost exactly double that of the rugby stadium, and Leicester City's average home gate last season was 135% higher than the capacity of the rugby stadium ! Leicester is actually proof that it is possible for 2 different sports to both secure big crowds in the same small city - something you're suggesting just couldn't happen.
The fact that until recently soccer and gaelic in Ireland were played to completely different seasons shows just how off-the-mark your comment is. Why weren't crowds significantly bigger under Winter football then ? Football in Ireland is in an almost unique positon - not because of the presence of the GAA, but because of the mind-set of most of the soccer-mad Irish public towards their own domestic brand of the game.
MY point is that IF THE GAA WAS NOT THERE then there is a whole fanbase looking for a team sport to support ..this is obviosly hypothetical..But if the GAA WAS NOT THERE then we could compare our League and attendances to Scandinavia (which is where the first comparisons were beeing made and not England) as it is we are not comparing like with like because the league here has to compete with our national Games.
I agree with the comment on the mindset of soccer mad people to our league.
Breifne
21/07/2006, 4:23 PM
Unfair to make it counties rather than towns/cities, given that soccer is a primarily urban phenomenon and GAA a primarily rural one. But ignoring this inherent bias in your question, I'll give it a go.
Derry - yes.
Antrim - yes.
Sligo - yes (the town at least).
Dublin - yes, and don't even debate it. Hill 16 or not, Dublin is primarily a soccer-loving town. Maybe not Irish soccer, but that wasn't the question.
Down - almost certainly.
In much the same way, I don't think its fair to count Derry, Antrim or Down in those calculations. We are talking about Ireland in terms of soccer. None of these counties are part of Irish Soccer (with the notable exception of Derry City) within the 26 counties, you have named 2. And even now, Sligo have done exceptionally well in the football championships over the last 4/5 years, and with the IT winning two Sigerson Cups, the interest in GAA is catching up with Soccer. Interesting that you didn't mention Donegal, where i'd imagine its pretty level pegging between them.
mypost
22/07/2006, 5:23 PM
Summer soccer is a great success. The reason why crowds are low, is not because of the weather, or the GAA, or the style of football, but because of games being played at the wrong time, postponed for flimsy reasons, a weekend's programme stretched over 4 days, poor tv coverage, and non-existent marketing. Until that improves, crowds will always struggle, in summer or winter football.
alabama rover
22/07/2006, 9:05 PM
I say that if we played a winter season Dublin City would have attracted 30-35,000 per game and would probably, somehow, have won the World Cup this summer.
Keely is right, it's all a conspiracy.:) :) :D LOL!!!
alabama rover
22/07/2006, 9:18 PM
So it's Dublin City's fault that attendances are low throughout the league???
Sure why not blame them for the trouble in the middle east when you are at it :rolleyes:
It is Dublin City's fault that attendances are so low in the Middle East!:) ;)
All the evidence suggests that can been little change in eL attendances since the start of summer football so no one can say whether winter football would be the same.
What we can say is that the eL would very unlikely not have had the improved performances in europe in recent years. I have definitely noticed a lot more people watching eL games on tv since we started winning in europe. These people don't attend games but thats the way of the world now - too many armchair experts.
Keely was stuck back in the part-time era which was fine for him but i never saw why he had to criticise those trying to advance. Bye & good riddance.
bigmac
24/07/2006, 10:02 AM
With fairness to the GAA - I'd lay the blame less on their shoulders than on the FAI. I read a good article by Tom Humphries a while ago talking about women's sport. He mentioned that women had been completely neglected by the GAA for years, but no other sport had really managed to take advantage of that and get everybody involved. It seems to me that if the GAA disappeared in the morning, the FAI would struggle to convince any more people to go to EL matches - mainly because they don't seem to believe themselves that people should go. It's been said before by many people, but a big brand-name sponsor that runs their own advertising campaign around the league is the only way I can see the profile increasing - much as Guinness did with the hurling.
As for summer soccer - the standard of football is definitely higher now and I still remain unconvinced that crowds have fallen directly because it's in the summer.
As for summer soccer - the standard of football is definitely higher now and I still remain unconvinced that crowds have fallen directly because it's in the summer.
scheduling clashes with the big GAA championship and world/euro cups and olympics mean that the summer season is too fractious and marginalised - how can you market anything when for most of the season now it is impossible to determine if a fixture will take place at all - the mad dash to cancel games left right and centre to accomodate clubs marginal outings in european competitions being the latest in a long line of inherent flaws with "summer soccer".
bigmac
24/07/2006, 12:25 PM
the mad dash to cancel games left right and centre to accomodate clubs marginal outings in european competitions being the latest in a long line of inherent flaws with "summer soccer".
as distinct from the mad dash to cancel games due to waterlogged/frozen pitches?
it wasn't marketed when it was a winter season either so nobody knows what might happen until someone finally does market either the league as a whole or their own club properly.
as distinct from the mad dash to cancel games due to waterlogged/frozen pitches?
it wasn't marketed when it was a winter season either so nobody knows what might happen until someone finally does market either the league as a whole or their own club properly.
wrong
it is marketed
(tonnes of radio slots)
the problem is they're advertising a fixture freephone (as if its the samaritans) cos no one can say for defo if a game is on or not.
cancellations for extreme weather were not that many - and you didnt get it week to week as per derry cork and drogheda
dcfcsteve
24/07/2006, 12:39 PM
Actually Bath City is bigger than Limerick City as far as i know they have a population of approx 80,000 and Limerick is about 56,000 or so. Also Brefnie Donegal is a strong GAA county.
Bath population (including suburbs/environs) : 80,000
Limerick population (incl suburbs/environs) : 93,321 (2002 census)
Having lived in Bath for 6 years, and knowing the city intimately, I can also confirm thew size difference anecdotally. The key issue is that, unlike most cities, planning restrictions have made Bath very self-contained - having no real outlying areas that are considered part of the city. Limerick does have suburbs/outying areas that are considered part of the City.
Agree on Donegal being a primarily GAA county. I remember the local press reporting with some excitement in 1988 that kids could be seen playing soccer around the car park of Dunnes Storrs in Letterkenny, enthused by Ireland's success in that tournament. Reportedly, that was not a comon sight at that time.
as distinct from the mad dash to cancel games due to waterlogged/frozen pitches?
Yeah, games being postponed due to waterlogged pitches has been totally eliminated by our summer season.
Any talk of marketing, 4 day programme, games postponed for flimsy reasons are equally applicable to both summer and winter seasons.
It was sold on the basis of increased attendances and media coverage (both of which have not changed (even by the proponents of this season format admit as much)); increased skill level (which has improved, but you have to factor in non weather related factors such as our wages v lower UK leagues, ITV Digital collapse etc); and better performances in Europe (which has happened, but to no apparent benefit to the rest of the league).
dcfcsteve
24/07/2006, 12:46 PM
dctcsteve you are wrong again, we do have rugby league in ireland. we have an all ireland league. go to www.rli.ie for more info.
Apologies Viking - I should've paid more attention to the thronging crowds on route to the last Dublin Blues game..... :rolleyes:
Stop splitting hairs. Most sports in the world have a presence in most countries - you'll find american football, Korfball, and even Kabadi teams in Ireland. No surprise therefore that there is a rump of a Rugby League presence here.
Given that the crowds at Rugby League in Ireland are tiny, whilst they're much more significant at Rugby Union, I stated that it should be ignored for the purposes of talking about the relative strengths in rugby between England and Ireland. To do otherwise would be ludicrous, as even a small village in Yorkshire would have better supported rugby league teams than Dublin with its 1.5m population.
You're just trying to be pedantic to score cheap points....
bigmac
24/07/2006, 1:00 PM
going to pull out of this discussion now. I have a sneaking feeling that it will drag on for pages and end in an agreement to disagree so I'll say that now.
I just prefer summer football - there are probably valid reasons for and against both seasons but I'm happier with it the way it is now.
dcfcsteve
24/07/2006, 1:06 PM
You named me towns ..I didn't shift any goal posts re attendances you use attendances as your reason for leicester see below yet u use soccer loving public as your reason for Dublin...One based on attendance the other on an assumption..i replied with Cork being a soccer loving city but GAA is bigger attendance wise.. I also stated that we are not treating like with like as in England there is a major Population and Geographical difference to Ireland and Also that Soccer is considered there National sport...therefore soccer in England and Scandinacvia do not have to compete with that countries national sport
In comparing the popularity of the sport, it makes perfect sense to refer to soccer attendances in England but not in Ireland. We all know that Ireland is relatively unique in being a soccer-mad country where the locals turn their back on attending local games. Therefore, it would be absurd to rely on attenndaces to determine the strength of soccer in Ireland. The same cannot be said of England, where local soccer is extremely strong and stadia are of a size where demand for the game can on-average be well accommodated. Therefore, attendances are a good pointer to the game's popularity in England, and a rubbish one for Ireland.
Looking at Ireland, if Man United moved to Dublin tomorrow they'd have a packed stadium for every game. You know that, I know that, the dogs in the street know that. That shows how little relevance attendnaces at EL games have re the overall appeal of soccer in Ireland. It also show that the problems of Irish domestic football have nothing to do with the GAA, and everything to do with the attitude of the soccer-mad Irish public towards the doemstic version of the game they love.
As regards your fascination with Scandinavia as an example - I am not familiar with the circumstances there myself, but it has been noted by other posters that soccer is not the first sport in those countries, and that they suffer versus Ice Hockey in some cases as well. So it appears that Scandinavia isn't the example you think it is.
In comparing how a secondary or tertiary sport can do against a national one, I believe that England is a much better case study than Scandinavia. You're asserting that soccer in Ireland can't compete with GAA as it is our national sport, and if it wasn't there we'd do much better. But if you look at England, rugby union attracts good crowds there - even though it is scheduled directly against that country's national sport (soccer), and is at-best that country's secondary, if not tertiary, spectator sport. And the population arguement doesn't work either - English cities like Bristol, Leicester and Newcastle would not be out of place in Ireland (Leicester and Newcastle are the size of Belfast; Bristol is roughly 25% the size of Dublin). All 3 cities are first and foremost soccer towns - but they also manage to attract very health crowds to rugby union games. This exposes the incorrect assumption in your arguement - it is perfectly feasible for secondary or tertiary sports to do well against a national sport, particularly where thsoe sports are themselves popular (as soccer generally is in Ireland).
MY point is that IF THE GAA WAS NOT THERE then there is a whole fanbase looking for a team sport to support ..this is obviosly hypothetical..But if the GAA WAS NOT THERE then we could compare our League and attendances to Scandinavia (which is where the first comparisons were beeing made and not England) as it is we are not comparing like with like because the league here has to compete with our national Games.
I agree with the comment on the mindset of soccer mad people to our league.
Ozy - I think your understanding of people's attitude towards sports teams differs from most other posters on here.
Underlying what you're saying is an assumption that those who follow live sports do so exclusively : i.e. that they only follow one particular code. This is simply not true in-practice. There is a large degree of lap-over between, for example, Cork City FC and Cork GAA support (and even within that, between the different codes of hurling and football). The same is true for Derry City/County, and as we've seen in previous years even so for Longford Town and County. I myself actively go to both football and rugby games in England - and would do so with GAA if I was based in Ireland. I know I am far from alone in this.
Secondly, the idea that if GAA didn't exist there would be hordes of fans wondering what to do with their time and thereby attracted to EL doesn't follow either. When we had Winter football, the vast majority of the EL season was outside of the GAA season - especially the more exciting climax to the season. So why didn't we attract hordes of GAA fans then ? If the assumption is that active sports fans sitting around with no GAA team to support would therefore be attracted to EL in large numbers, then why weren't they during Winter football ?? As mentioned above, people do not slavishly support only one sporting code,and then only feel free to follow another if their first-love no longer exists.
Bottom line is that the Irish love soccer - but not the domestic Irish version. That is the root of our probelm - not the GAA, not the FAI, and not even Man United and Celtic themselves. The GAA could be erased from history tomorrow, and that fact wouldn't change.
paudie
24/07/2006, 1:21 PM
But isn't that the point? We were sold summer football on the basis of better European results will increase the leagues credibility and thus increase attendances. That hasn't happened on either count imo.
How do you measure increased credibility?
I would argue that better European results HAS increased credibility by virtue of positive media coverage, live TV games. Can't prove it though.
Attendances have certainly increased for Euro games and there have been more Euro games played so income has increased. I'd agree that league attendances haven't increased as a result.
The main point of my first post was that someone saying "you only won cos you were fitter" would probably have a negative attitude to EL in general. It's like saying "you only beat them cos you were better than them".
dcfcsteve
24/07/2006, 1:22 PM
No you were talking about a city Steve you asked people to name 3 cities that were bigger than Limerck i named them now you want to include part of Limerick county in their city figures ? You need to compare like with like man and stop changing the rules when you are clearly wrong ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick
And where does a city stop beingn a City ? Is there a magical line drawn in the street ??
For the record - I actually checked the figures on Wikipedia before I posted, so was all too familiar with the URL you've posted,and still posted what I did.
Which is why I stated earlier :
Bath is smaller than Limerick (particularly as Bath city has no environs/satellite towns that are/can be considered part of it, whereas Limerick does).
If it makes you feel better to restrict the size of Limerick City to its narrowest definition, then feel free to do so. I won't as that doesn't reflect reality on the ground.
dcfcsteve
24/07/2006, 1:54 PM
while the official population of the city itself according to the City Boundary Laws is 52,560, according to the most recent census of 2006 so in my favour i am not restricting Limerick City at all Steve.
1,2,3 it's all over
Firstly, your above scentence doesn't make sense. Looks like your missing a bit from the last part of it.
Secondly, is that why Wikipedia says :
The population of Limerick including suburbs and environs is 93,321 (based on the 2002 census carried out by the CSO),
3, 2 ,1 : you're back in the room...... :D
mypost
24/07/2006, 2:59 PM
dcfcsteve, i wasnt trying to get cheap points. you said that there wasnt rugby league here and i just said there was, simple as. as for attendances there was over 2000 at the league grand final last year.
Back on topic.
Oh sorry, I forgot that nobody wants to talk anymore about Dermot "we're safe in the league" Keely. Instead, Home Farm and Derry fans are arguing about the merits of Rugby League. :confused: :D
manic da hoop
24/07/2006, 3:28 PM
Back on topic indeed - Dermot Keely is a gimp, and he's talking ****e, and I hope he follows his club out the door and never returns to Irish football in any capacity.
Block G Raptor
24/07/2006, 3:38 PM
Summer soccer is a great success. The reason why crowds are low, is not because of the weather, or the GAA, or the style of football, but because of games being played at the wrong time, postponed for flimsy reasons, a weekend's programme stretched over 4 days, poor tv coverage, and non-existent marketing. Until that improves, crowds will always struggle, in summer or winter football.#
Gimme that hammer before you hurt yerself ( translated to mean you've hit the nail on the head there)
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