eL Clubs and Tax Breaks

[A face]

I said it when Shels were in trouble a few months back and i have written two pieces for FourFiveOne fanzine on the topic aswell.

Should eL Clubs gets tax breaks on parr with horse racing and greyhounds in this country? That is the question.

Brian Lennox has mentioned it at least 5-6 times in programme notes and in fans forums and interviews since he has taken over at Cork City. He mentions it here again. (http://corktrophycentre.com/audios/lennox10.mp3)

No eL will ever make money, and if they do, its doubtful they will be able to sustain it. It is now becoming very clear that clubs need to have they house in order but is there any assistance that the government should provide.

What do you think?

[Student Mullet]

Players already get tax breaks and I'm not sure what other taxes eL clubs pay, apart from a small ammount of VAT on food and merchandise.

[pete]

The pension rebate type thing is fine but there should extra tax credits for professonal sports people in this country.

The fact the horse and dog racing (they are animals) are subsidised to the tune of 50m a year says it all about priorities in this country. I'm the success of the brown horse or black dog is great for kids to look at but surely all it does is encourage them to become gambles. Proper sports on the other hand might encourage kids to play a sport as try to emulate their heros.

[Student Mullet]

The pension rebate type thing is fine but there should extra tax credits for professonal sports people in this country.

The fact the horse and dog racing (they are animals) are subsidised to the tune of 50m a year says it all about priorities in this country. I'm the success of the brown horse or black dog is great for kids to look at but surely all it does is encourage them to become gambles. Proper sports on the other hand might encourage kids to play a sport as try to emulate their heros.The government actually upped the subsidy to about 80 million a year recently which is scandalous in my opinion. Part of the preoblem is the government which has no interest in football. Another part is in the league though. You can't ask for more money from the government when there are no financial controls over the current money being spent.

[A face]

You can't ask for more money from the government when there are no financial controls over the current money being spent.

Just asking this as i dont actually know. Are there financial controls in place for the dogs and horses? Its not like a bottomless pit or anything is it?

[MariborKev]

Players already get tax breaks and I'm not sure what other taxes eL clubs pay, apart from a small ammount of VAT on food and merchandise.

We pay 17.5% on gate receipts straight to HM Customs and Revenue.


Barstewards!!!!!

[Student Mullet]

Just asking this as i dont actually know. Are there financial controls in place for the dogs and horses? Its not like a bottomless pit or anything is it?I haven't looked into it in enough detail to answer that but their accounts are published on (I think) the Dept. of Sport website. The government subsidy is shown as income in the accounts and is not linked to any particular projects from what I can see.

The point is that the Dogs and Horses seem to run their financial affairs properly. I don't think the eL is in a position to be asking for something similar.

[Dodge]

What the FAI could push for is tax breaks for companies/individuals who invest in football here.

[A face]

What the FAI could push for is tax breaks for companies/individuals who invest in football here.

Does anyone know if the FAI have ever pushed for something like that ??

[Student Mullet]

To be fair to the Government they announced 5 million capital money for the league last year and my sources tell me that they're going to announce something similar soon for this year. In the absence of a well run league or association I think that that's the best that they can do.

[Dodge]

But if they gave 5 mill in tax breaks, how much overall ivestment would that bring it?

(PS, can understand totally why they wouldn't do it, just putting it forward as an idea....)

[A face]

Cork City chairman urges tax breaks for footballers


CORK CITY FC chairman Brian Lennox last night called for football players to get tax breaks after the top club was landed with a €160,000 Revenue demand and a winding-up petition. The Revenue Commissioners served the High Court winding-up petition on the Eircom League leaders for unpaid PAYE and PRSI contributions.

The Turners Cross club has failed to pass on the full amount of tax and social insurance contributions deducted from the wages of players and staff. Last night Mr Lennox vowed the bill would be paid in full today but said the crisis underlined the money problems faced by all League of Ireland clubs.


Read more at www.examiner.ie (http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=7405-qqqx=1.asp)

[Mr_T]

Been saying this for many a long year now, and its something the FAI should be pushing for once they get their feet under the table, however as somebody said above its hard to ask for tax breaks when the vast majority of clubs are flouting the existing regulations.

A simple additional tax credit for professional sports people would be something which would make a huge difference to the EL however its not that simple.

The government would be concerned that it could be a costly measure when applied to rugby players for example, or golfers, or even Premiership millionaires moving here for the exemption similar to the artists tax breaks.

Another drawback would be that eL players would not be long coming asking for more money given that the clubs no longer pay as much tax for them.

Perhaps a way round it would be tax credits for part time sportspeople leaving the full time pros as they are, as these are the ones who really hurt clubs, i.e. they are working elsewhere and using up all their tax credits on that employments, so clubs get stuck paying 40% tax on everything making even a modest takehome cost almost double to the club.

It would hugely help the EL by allowing clubs to keep investing their income in quality players without giving (in theory anyway) a huge chunk of the cash (often raised by blood, sweat and tears of part time volunteers) to the taxman. Surely there is something wrong with people busting their butts selling lottos, draws and the like to give the money to the government!!!

TG

[passerrby]

EL clubs will I think be giving breaks only when the revenue are sure we are all doing the right thing .

[Dr.Nightdub]

There's a number of things they could do, whether they should do any of them is another matter.

- Corporation Tax isn't an issue cos hardly any clubs make enough profit in the first place to be paying tax on it. You don't pay tax if you make a loss.

- Tax-free earning status, a bit like what they did for artists and musicians under Haughey. I think they already have something like this in place where a player can claim back their tax at the end of their career provided they've played here continuously for a certain number of years. Main drawback for me is that it's not deduction of players' PAYE that's the problem, it's the club deducting it but not passing it on to the Revenue. Also, given that inflated wage demands by players are at least part of the reason we're all in this mess (combined with clubs' willingness / stupidity to accede to those demands), it makes me less supportive of starting off by giving them more.

- Zero-rate footballers for employers' PRSI, providing the players are still given credit for the relevant "contributions" as regards social welfare entitlements in the event of injury, end of career, etc. Roughly speaking, that ought to knock about 12% off every club's wage bill. Main drawback would be how to stop the tax break ending up with the players, a bit like the way the tax break for first-time buyers ended up being tagged onto house prices. Maybe link the tax concession to investment in facilities so that players can't set their beady eyes on it. Or a wage cap would be another way of ring-fencing the money.

- I like Dodge's idea about tax incentives for investors. It'd address one of the main weaknesses of the League, that apart from the odd dreamer, philanthropist (or property speculator, eh, WAR? ;) :D ) no-one's willing to invest in the league. Already, all sorts of donations can be written off against tax - charities, even forestry if you don't mind - so why not football?

One major problem of any of the above is how do you do anything without putting Derry at a disadvantage? Do you just write it off as a sad fact of life for them, pending the return of the fourth green field (like that's ever gonna happen) or do you allow them to register as a company in the south while trading in the north? That's one that'd require a bit of imagination by the two sets of Revenue.

[thomas]

This is cobblers.

What divine right does a footballer have to pay less tax on their salary? A tax break simply means the clubs would be paying out the same money to players instead of Revenue.

If they want taxs breaks they can offset it against their mortgage, their pension like the rest of us and they get their best 5 years back at the end of their careers on top of that.

Clubs dont pay any other tax, there's no vat on gate reciepts, and in general vat on other things can all be claimed back because clubs are involved in sport.

Cutting to the chase, if we mean government funding, obviously EUR80m a year would go a long way but get over yourselves, its not going to happen in the short term, and if delaney or his successor continue to be balls less then donet expect it any time in the next 10 years.

[A face]

What divine right does a footballer have to pay less tax on their salary? A tax break simply means the clubs would be paying out the same money to players instead of Revenue.

"Tax-free earning status, like what they did for artists and musicians under Haughey" - Why do you disagree with this is the obvious question i suppose, what divine right does an artists or musicians have to pay less tax

** Just a question on the artists/musicians ... do they have to wait a number of year to avail of the break or do they get it annually?

Thomas, the reason people have been suggesting this over the years is because they have been looking at other codes who get far more breaks than the eL. Some would argue that the eL contributes more, to a larger spectrum of people in the community, with what seems like at times, little or no assistance in return from the government.

Why should the league looking from more assistance be a bad thing, given what it is already getting (sweet fa in the scheme of things)?

[paudie]

It is hard to see EL clubs getting any kind of preferential tax treatment when most of them seem to so poorly run eg in the last year Rovers going bust, 2 of the top clubs hit with winding up orders for tax due.

One thing the clubs could do themselves is to stop agreeing to pay wages net with players.

This means the cost to the clubs can vary depending on whether a player is married or has another employment

[A face]

This means the cost to the clubs can vary depending on whether a player is married or has another employment

A common sense approach ... cant see this being too popular !! :p

[BohDiddley]

The point is that the Dogs and Horses seem to run their financial affairs properly.
It's a mite easier to run your financial affairs properly when government throws money at you. This is the same circular argument made by those who consider that the GAA is supernaturally gifted when it comes to financial management and fund-raising prowess, as opposed simply to being well-in.

[passerrby]

my guess is that EL clubs are not flavour of the month with the revenue and until we get our houses in order they will not do us any favours, we should not be surprised.

[A face]

It's a mite easier to run your financial affairs properly when government throws money at you. This is the same circular argument made by those who consider that the GAA is supernaturally gifted when it comes to financial management and fund-raising prowess, as opposed simply to being well-in.

Isn't that the truth .... infact if the GAA didn't have the house in order then its would be fairly worrying to say the least.

[pete]

Its easy to say that Horse & Dog Racing is run properly when its has 50-80m subsidy every single year & that i think does not even include the tax missed because of the stud farms.

Take horse racing as an example:
- The state builds facilities (this would be stadiums in the eL)
- The state subsidies prize money (this would be like paying for eL player wages)
- Stud farms are tax free (this could like academies or VAT free bars or something)

The fact is horse racing is a small sport not taken seriously by most countries & the only thing is does is allow millionaires make more profits and encourage gambling.

Imagine what kind of facilities the IRFU, GAA, FAI & Olympic sports would have in 10 years if the state invested 1 billion up to 2016?

If tax breaks are good enough for artists then its good enough for sport people. Even capping the tax break at the first 50-100k would make a huge difference.

The eL can not expect special treatment but professional sports such as Rugby not in great shape either. The IRFU only made 800k surplus this year is possibly its best ever year at international & provincial level.

[A face]

The eL can not expect special treatment but professional sports such as Rugby not in great shape either. The IRFU only made 800k surplus this year is possibly its best ever year at international & provincial level.

:eek: :eek:


Also, just to answer that one ...


I'd presume his answer would possibly be the part of his post where he states that the clubs would simply hand over any savings to the players in increased salarys.

That is only a small problem now in fairness ... and even so, if the money was given to players, wouldn't it attract more players here ?? Hardly an obstacle now is it, its like we are looking for problems with it.

[higgins]

Im with northside hoop

Clubs will pay the players basically every single spare cent they have. If they had 50K a week coming in they would find the players to spend that 50K.

Clubs should be forced to upgrade their grounds in order to compete at the top level.

Only by rules can you get most clubs to spend their money on other things outside players wages.

[A face]

Im with northside hoop

Clubs will pay the players basically every single spare cent they have. If they had 50K a week coming in they would find the players to spend that 50K.

So ?? What does that have to do with a tax break ?? You're making no sense?

From what i gather, you are saying that some clubs with spend 100% on players wages .... how does that impact on whether the league so get tax breaks or not .... 100% will always be 100% no matter what the figure ???


Clubs should be forced to upgrade their grounds in order to compete at the top level.

I know its completely off on a tangent and has nothing to do with tax breaks but thats a valid point. I heard somewhere a suggested rule of clubs only spending 65% of their income on players ... that would go someway to addressing your issue.


Only by rules can you get most clubs to spend their money on other things outside players wages.

Agreed.

N E Way ..... back on topic !!

[higgins]

So ?? What does that have to do with a tax break ?? You're making no sense?

From what i gather, you are saying that some clubs with spend 100% on players wages .... how does that impact on whether the league so get tax breaks or not .... 100% will always be 100% no matter what the figure ???

I know its completely off on a tangent and has nothing to do with tax breaks but thats a valid point. I heard somewhere a suggested rule of clubs only spending 65% of their income on players ... that would go someway to addressing your issue.


I am making sense :)
I always make sense :eek:

A tax break would mean EL Club owe less money to the Tax Man and therefore the debt would build up at a slower pace. The money saved (assuming clubs keep up their payments) would more than likely go into the kitty for the manager to spend on players.

If this is what you mean and are happy with then ok but I would like the money saved through a tax break not to go towards higher wages.

EL Clubs are focused on players, its players players players and they wont spend a cent they dont have to. Grounds are maintained only because they are required to now by the FAI. Very little seems to happen at most EL grounds that wasnt forced upon them or wasnt from a grant. Its an endless chase for the next best player, over and over and over again. There is always someone better out there that the manager wants and the extra few thousand would go on that player and force wages higher.

Very little (if anything) of the day to day income of clubs gets put into anything other than players wages.

We do need to eventually spend money to bring in a better quality player but not before every club has their house in order. Playing in a dump week in week out or renting grounds while splashing out money on big squads is madness. You need to spend money behind the scenes to allow your club grow and increase income levels.

A tax break wouldnt do me you or the next fan any favours. It would probably do the few 100 players a favour. Also players can claim back tax for their 10 highest paid years if they play in Ireland. Thats a big enough tax break for them I think! I'd love to claim back tax for 10 years when I was 34 or 35...

As for the 65% rule, thats part of the new proposal put forward by the FAI. Has been covered in other threads but its going to be very hard to work it. Until ALL players in this league receive all of their money by the proper means and everything is documented clubs can lie through their teeth on the 65% rule.

[A face]

Exactly.

So why bother having the government give tax breaks when it won't help the clubs but will help greedy players.

:confused: :D :D

How about trying to get other players .... who are not greedy but actually worth more ..... to bring more people through the gates ...... to get more money ..... to be able to by even better players ..... and see better standard of football ..... to get even more people through the gates ...... getting more money ..... to buy better players !!

Man .... come off it now in all fairness !!



I am making sense
I always make sense

A tax break would mean EL Club owe less money to the Tax Man and therefore the debt would build up at a slower pace. The money saved (assuming clubs keep up their payments) would more than likely go into the kitty for the manager to spend on players.

If this is what you mean and are happy with then ok but I would like the money saved through a tax break not to go towards higher wages.

EL Clubs are focused on players, its players players players and they wont spend a cent they dont have to. Grounds are maintained only because they are required to now by the FAI. Very little seems to happen at most EL grounds that wasnt forced upon them or wasnt from a grant. Its an endless chase for the next best player, over and over and over again. There is always someone better out there that the manager wants and the extra few thousand would go on that player and force wages higher.

Very little (if anything) of the day to day income of clubs gets put into anything other than players wages.

We do need to eventually spend money to bring in a better quality player but not before every club has their house in order. Playing in a dump week in week out or renting grounds while splashing out money on big squads is madness. You need to spend money behind the scenes to allow your club grow and increase income levels.

A tax break wouldnt do me you or the next fan any favours. It would probably do the few 100 players a favour. Also players can claim back tax for their 10 highest paid years if they play in Ireland. Thats a big enough tax break for them I think! I'd love to claim back tax for 10 years when I was 34 or 35...

As for the 65% rule, thats part of the new proposal put forward by the FAI. Has been covered in other threads but its going to be very hard to work it. Until ALL players in this league receive all of their money by the proper means and everything is documented clubs can lie through their teeth on the 65% rule.


I cant actually believe i am hearing this ??

Look ... with or without a tax break you have the problem you are outlining above .... i'd suggest you try and actually resolve that BEFORE you condemn a tax break.

Fair enough 65% rule might have problems but i dont see how a tax break has anything to do with that. Maybe you should try and think of them as two seperate issues, it might work out better for you.

[Stuttgart88]

Domestic footballers are far more deserving of tax breaks than the likes of Damon Hill who lived (lives?) in Killiney for tax purposes.

In order to attract capital investment, potential investors should be able to make the investment from their pre-tax income. That'd be a start.

Maybe also allowing revenue to be tax exempt if reinvested. And so on.

[paudie]

One stick the EL/FAI should use to beat the government with is the huge funding given to build/renovate new dog and horse tracks.

The eL can justifiably say that, for example, Cork City are competing for customers with:

1. the excellent facilities at the brand new, paid for by the government(100% probably) Cork dog track

2. The renovated Mallow race track paid for by government (100% probably)

The fact that these sports are run by state boards means the state is creating an extremely unlevel (is that a word?) playing field.

I think lobbying for tax breaks going to players are a waste of time to be honest. Funding for capital works is what the EL should aim for.

[pete]

Attendances do not rise because of better facilities. The only proven way of increasing club attendances is a winning team. I haven't been to Kilkenny but they seem to have decent ground but poor team & look at their attendances.

IMO the state should be part funding municipal stadiums in the major population centres as our investment in sport is pitiful by all international standards.

Developers get massive tax breaks (tax free rent for 10 years set against the building costs) for building apartments in some parts of our cities (many are not exactly deprieved areas) & same for car parks (at the same time preaching the evils of cars yet feck all tax breaks for building a stand with say bar concession.

[passerrby]

If there was a tax amesty tomorrow and all clubs were given a clean bill of health would we be back in this same situation in a number of years time, proberly because some clubs refuse to accept the level we are at and that i fear is why the revenue as ****ed of with some of our clubs and refuse to help us.
other sports have one distinct advantage ,most politicians support rugger or the gaa, both have good photo ops, nobody wants to be photographed next to our lot
bloody hell im going to cry

[A face]

nobody wants to be photographed next to our lot

Are they ever asked though ??

That is half of the problem, they aren't even being asked.

[thomas]

A Face it has everything to do with tax breaks.

The clubs deduct money from a players salary on his behalf to pay that players tax obligations. A tax break would simply mean the players would not have that money deducted from their pay.

[A face]

A Face it has everything to do with tax breaks.

The clubs deduct money from a players salary on his behalf to pay that players tax obligations. A tax break would simply mean the players would not have that money deducted from their pay.

Well, depending on the tax break ..... but yeah, i know what you mean.

So?? ...... yeah, players would earn more money !!

What is wrong with that .... if players can earn more money, we'll attract better players, even possibly keep a few players here aswell. What is wrong with that? A tax break on players wages would mean the wages would go further, this would be a good thing for this league imo. If you are saying it isn't ..... then that a whole other topic to be honest and i think you shouldn't be trying to confuse the two issues.

I mean if you are arguing with the fact that the clubs could pay players more, as a result of not having to pay tax then cut it short here fella. Football is a professional sport .... if you dont want to pay players then support GAA. You need to ask yourself what you actually want to be honest.

Also, if your opinion is that a tax break on wages is not good, and you are thinking of something else, then spit it out ... let us know.


(Bare in mind, my motive for starting this thread was to see if there was a way to improve the leagues situation.)



If they want taxs breaks they can offset it against their mortgage, their pension like the rest of us.

Who is to say they are not doing that already ?? And this doesn't add to the debate of tax breaks for eL


they get their best 5 years back at the end of their careers on top of that.

All professional sports people get that !! ....... every single one of them, not just eL players .... again .... has no impact on the debate on tax breaks for eL.


Cutting to the chase, if we mean government funding, obviously EUR80m a year would go a long way but get over yourselves, its not going to happen in the short term, and if delaney or his successor continue to be balls less then donet expect it any time in the next 10 years.

Its not governemnt funding i am on about, its tax breaks


What divine right does a footballer have to pay less tax on their salary?

If this is what you are contesting then say it .... if you dont agree with players paying less tax then say it. That way we'd know how you feel about eL players getting tax breaks. But if you dont agree, give us your reasons/motive.

[Block G Raptor]

We pay 17.5% on gate receipts straight to HM Customs and Revenue.


Barstewards!!!!!
Thats It I'm Never setting foot the Brandywell again............or at least until there is a united Ireland. do you reckon they can get one by october?;) :D

[thomas]

Well, depending on the tax break ..... but yeah, i know what you mean.

So?? ...... yeah, players would earn more money !!

What is wrong with that .... if players can earn more money, we'll attract better players, even possibly keep a few players here aswell. What is wrong with that? A tax break on players wages would mean the wages would go further, this would be a good thing for this league imo. If you are saying it isn't ..... then that a whole other topic to be honest and i think you shouldn't be trying to confuse the two issues.

I mean if you are arguing with the fact that the clubs could pay players more, as a result of not having to pay tax then cut it short here fella. Football is a professional sport .... if you dont want to pay players then support GAA. You need to ask yourself what you actually want to be honest.

Also, if your opinion is that a tax break on wages is not good, and you are thinking of something else, then spit it out ... let us know.


(Bare in mind, my motive for starting this thread was to see if there was a way to improve the leagues situation.)




Who is to say they are not doing that already ?? And this doesn't add to the debate of tax breaks for eL



All professional sports people get that !! ....... every single one of them, not just eL players .... again .... has no impact on the debate on tax breaks for eL.



Its not governemnt funding i am on about, its tax breaks



If this is what you are contesting then say it .... if you dont agree with players paying less tax then say it. That way we'd know how you feel about eL players getting tax breaks. But if you dont agree, give us your reasons/motive.

Take a chill pill ffs.

[A face]

Take a chill pill ffs.

Ahh .... i was just discussing it man, i didn't think you'd get upset over it. If you thought i was getting personal with you there i wasn't. I was merely arguing the point, never intended attack you at all, just the point .... y'know, debate it.

Sorry about that fella !!

[Poor Student]

Face, your usage of the old question mark can be a bit threatning.:p Know what I mean!!?????????;)

[A face]

Face, your usage of the old question mark can be a bit threatning.:p Know what I mean!!?????????;)

D'oh ... force of habit !! :)

[Dr.Nightdub]

Thomas, you're worrying about tax breaks just ending up in the players' back pockets. Fair point. Easiest way of ensuring that doesn't happen is to put a cap in place as regards wages as a % of club income, then the players can't screw the clubs for the windfall and it can be invested in upgrading facilities, etc.

[thomas]

Thomas, you're worrying about tax breaks just ending up in the players' back pockets. Fair point. Easiest way of ensuring that doesn't happen is to put a cap in place as regards wages as a % of club income, then the players can't screw the clubs for the windfall and it can be invested in upgrading facilities, etc.

I'm not worried about it cos its not gonna happen!
What I am saying is that if it did happen and players got the break it would be of no financial benefit to the clubs.
The % of turnover is common sense and any sensible club operates on this basis anyway. The tough question is should it be 55% or 65% and could this go higher if turnover goes over EUR3.0m or EUR5.0m...

[A face]

Does anyone think that tax breaks and wages cap/financial policy are two seperate things? Obviously there is a cross over but they are seperate.

That is a good point aswell, it should change if it gets beyond a certain level.


The % of turnover is common sense and any sensible club operates on this basis anyway. The tough question is should it be 55% or 65% and could this go higher if turnover goes over EUR3.0m or EUR5.0m...