China

[pete]

Anyone see the BBC2 documentary on China. Saw the 1st week & was very good - seemed to be alot more open than normal. Very interesting profile as such on the Chinese Communist Party. Recorded week 2 but not seen yet.

[liam88]

Very well made programme! Went to China a couple of years back and easily one of the msot interesting nations in the world at the moment. Because I'm involved in Free Tibet/Burma Campaign/Amnesty International -I always keep an eye on the (disgraceful) human rights situation there.
Been following the campaigner against the three dams project-he has been campaigning against the destruction and forced relocation of the village the dam in being built across. Last week he was brought in by the police after giving and itnerview to the independent (the reporters were arrested to befor being released) -on the way back from the station he was ambushed and smashed over the head with an iron bar. He will be parlysed but an operation is need to save his life- the villiage held a fundrauser because the operation needed to be paid for up front but the Chinese police came and shut it down. In stepped the German government who paid the full price of the operation and are calling for China to be challenged at the UN! Fair play to them!

Edit: I missed the second episode-anybody know if it will be repeated or if there is any way to get hold of it? Thanks!

[dahamsta]

I have a bit of a problem with these documentaries because while it is (or would be) good to see what life is like in China, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the filming wasn't unfettered, which means what we're seeing is or may be misleading. pete says above "it's a lot more open than normal", but is it really, or does it just look that way?

adam

[paul_oshea]

ya fair point adam, but isnt it good that we are at least seeing this, and seeing at least "some" side of it. i know it can breed ignorance but i think its better than seeing nothing at all.

[liam88]

ya fair point adam, but isnt it good that we are at least seeing this, and seeing at least "some" side of it. i know it can breed ignorance but i think its better than seeing nothing at all.

I'd agree with Paul here-the BBC have a good history with this kind of thing. Back in 2003 they ran a similar documentary in China. Whilst interviewing workers who'd been maimed in factories they were raided by police and the series ended with the crew escaping over the border into Laos to avoid being arrested and having their footage destroyed.

I know some of it is censored-your never going to get a 100% uncensored view of China because its a dictatorship. When I went even though we were actually there, there were things we wern't allowed to see, a government official had to be with us at all times and we were hustled away by the army when a small protest broke out in Tianmen Sqaure. Having said that I still think we got a better view of China than most. The authorities can try and stop you seeing the prisons, some of the factories etc. but they can't hide the fact that their are soldiers all over the streets, dropping chewing gum can fetch you up to a year in prison, there is no free press etc.

We were there during a major earthquake and the SARS outbreak -have Chinese newspapers saying 300 dead and nothing about SARS and UK newspapers from same day or they day before saying 3000 dead and SARS had broken out. The people in China new the score whent he earthquake occured and told us you had to times whatever the government said by 10.

[pete]

I would assume all the voice overs were done back in the Uk so the BBC could say what they wanted? Obviously its hard to know what level of freedom allowed with footage.

I was surprised to hear academics inside China criticise the communist party. maybe the chinese authorities realise that with the Olympics coming up its impossible to manage all the information abroad?

[dahamsta]

I think I'm more concerned about the thick element seeing something like this and thinking everything is hunky dory in China.

But I guess they're all watching Bog Botherer or reading The Stir anyway.

adam

[Ringo]

dropping chewing gum can fetch you up to a year in prison,

Sounds good to me. Should have that here.

[pete]

I think it showed how really screwed up China is. Seen some of 2nd programme & the fact parents work all year in the city and see their children 2 weeks a year seems fairly fecked up to me. Also the flash cities make up only a fraction of the population - the rest of the country is just above 3rd world?

With a surplus of 40 million males in next 20 years I wonder is China due a war to cull the numbers...?

[liam88]

With a surplus of 40 million males in next 20 years I wonder is China due a war to cull the numbers...?

There will be war in South East Asia-it's coming alright:


China/Japan arms race
Japan moving away from the "no war clause" in it's constitution
Taiwan as a flashpoint that will immediatly draw in China, US, N. Korea, S. Korea and Japan
N. Korea's arsenal on the build up, threatening South Korea and Japan especially
Instability in Nepal with potential for (more) Chinese influence
Instability in Burma with potential for (more) Chinese influence
Burma buying in material for a nuclear weapon
Overpopulated China bordering sparsley populated Siberia
Struggle between China, Thailand and India for influence over Burma


Throw in the tensions overs war shrines and kidnappings along with the brutal human rights abuses in China, Tibet, Burma, Nepal and N.Korea -the whole region is sitting on the edge of an enormous conflict.

[pete]

China seems to have managed Tibet fairly well allowing locals speak their own language. Now complete the China-Tibet railway (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4345494.stm) to enable Tibet to be connected to the rest of the world.

Japan won't get into any war although Taiwan will become a flashpoint at some stage especially if the US abandon them.

[liam88]

China seems to have managed Tibet fairly well allowing locals speak their own language. Now complete the China-Tibet railway (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4345494.stm) to enable Tibet to be connected to the rest of the world.


Are you joking??

Firstly it's not their country to 'manage'; they invaded in case you forgot.

How about that old Tibetan couple who ran an orphanage; they were having some building work done and a builder hung a Tibetan flag off the scaffolding so they have both be sent to jail, tortured and the orphanage shut down.

Forced abortions upon the women of Tibet.

Nuns locked up and tortured.

But woop dee doo they get to speak their own language!!! Well actually all the signs have been put up in Chinese so they Tibetans can't even read them and much of the schooling is in Chinese so their children loose their language.


As for your railway it's one of the greatest feats of cultural and envrionmental destruction to ever take place and will simply allow for an influx of Han chinese to dilute Tibet even more and further incorporate it into China (which the Chinese authroities teach the children that it always was!) With a bit of luck i'll be on the protest against it in London this Friday.

Finally lets not forget the Panchen Lama who was kidnapped by China so they could take control of Tibets spiritual leadership.

Pete-Chinese 'management' of Tibet is on a par with Nazi 'management' of Poland

[liam88]

The truth about the Golmud-Lhasa railway (http://www.freetibet.org/campaigns/railway/index.html#background)

Slight different to the Chinese dictatorships line of linking Tibet to the outside world and improving development (unless of course you are referring to the development of an illegal opression in which case its the biggest leap in years)

[pete]

Forced abortions upon the women of Tibet.


Sure the chinese do that to their own people too.

I certainly don't think the Tibet situation as bad as many others around the world. The chinese authorities not the nicest but thats what big powers do around the world.

[dahamsta]

pete, stop winding liam up please, it's not funny.

[paul_oshea]

Sure the chinese do that to their own people too.


aye, sure that makes it alright then!! :/

[dahamsta]

I'm closing this if there are any more trolls, or responses to trolls. Seriously, knock it on the head.

adam

[pete]

OK obviously a bit of windup from me but also playing devlis advocate. Then again its all very well criticising china for human rights abuse but what realistically can be done - boycotting chinese goods isn't an option.

I used to think the Falon Gong was religious persecution but a few chinese people have told me they also believe a cult (apparently it encourages people to think they godlike or something) & clearly many other religions exist without state intervention...

[liam88]

OK obviously a bit of windup from me but also playing devlis advocate. Then again its all very well criticising china for human rights abuse but what realistically can be done - boycotting chinese goods isn't an option.

I used to think the Falon Gong was religious persecution but a few chinese people have told me they also believe a cult (apparently it encourages people to think they godlike or something) & clearly many other religions exist without state intervention...

Pretty much no religion exists without some kind of state intervention in China. The state set up a puppet Catholic church with itself in place of the Pope -people who are found practicising their faith in the widespread underground Catholic church are arrested and often tortured. Buddhist monastries in Tibet are frequently trashed, the state is keen to play Buddhist sects of against each other and as for kidnapping the Panchen Lama and replacing him with their own you could not get more state cotnrolled. Unless there is a huge upheavel of Buddhism and a fundemental change to the Buddhist theology their next leader will inevitably be chosen by the state thus giving China almost complete control over Buddhism and Tibet (in reality there is likely to be a massive pheval and divide in Buddhism).

As for what to do I agree it's hard-a lot of it is down to governments to put pressure on the Communist Regime (communist by name not really by nature) -still it will be incredibly hard to end the human rights abuses but letting Jianto have a parade down the Mall sent completly the wrogn message from Britain and as for Tony Blair failing to even mention Tibet when they met this was just cowadice.

However it's not all down to the governments-there's a lot we can do. Letter writing campaigns to Chinese authorities (organised through Amnesty, Free tibet etc.) have a real impact. Once the prison authorities know that hundreds of people on the outside are watching and are concerned they have often (not always but often) been known to improve conditions, cease torture and even reduce sentances -grassroots activism at its best.

This may be seen as tackling the symptoms not the cause but in reality it provides the valuable otuside support needed by the people inside China and Tibet who can make a difference.

[bennocelt]

I have a bit of a problem with these documentaries because while it is (or would be) good to see what life is like in China, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the filming wasn't unfettered, which means what we're seeing is or may be misleading. pete says above "it's a lot more open than normal", but is it really, or does it just look that way?

adam

have lived in china for 4 years,
sometimes these documentaris can be a pain, they never get it 100% right
most chinese people couldnt give a fart about freedom, they are happy with their lot, capitalis is doing just fine for them, they have their mobiles, their homes, their cars and can shop in wal mart and eat in KFC, why would they care about freedom, the Comminist party are so good to give them this ability to spend money!
on the other hand, china isnt so backward that the people dont know what is happening, its just that they really dont care as much as we would expect

[bennocelt]

I think it showed how really screwed up China is. Seen some of 2nd programme & the fact parents work all year in the city and see their children 2 weeks a year seems fairly fecked up to me. Also the flash cities make up only a fraction of the population - the rest of the country is just above 3rd world?

With a surplus of 40 million males in next 20 years I wonder is China due a war to cull the numbers...?

yeah but you also have to remember that nearly all chinese people have a home, a family to look after them, a close knit community that sticks together, cheap food
They are poor but they are not anything compared to africa
and now with the construction boom and education, they also have more chances for jobs , etc
...especially for woman who are taking advantage of education to better themselves

[bennocelt]

China seems to have managed Tibet fairly well allowing locals speak their own language. Now complete the China-Tibet railway (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4345494.stm) to enable Tibet to be connected to the rest of the world.
.

if you travel to Tibet or Mongolia (inner), you will find that Han Chinese are hated

the railway will only speed up the movement of han into Tibet, swamping its local culture