Refereeing

[Superhoops]

Anyone see 'the Premiership's best Referee' Graham Poll's performance tonight in the Aus v Croatia game.

Surely the worst WC refereeing display of all times. Missed a blatant penalty when Simunic took down Viduka with a tackle round the waist that Brian O'Driscoll would have been proud of. Even though he did get one right when rightly awarding the Aussies a penaly when Tomas handled, he denied Australia another penalty when he missed a blantant handball by a Croat defender. He then gave Simunic three yellow cards before giving him a red after the final whistle.

He wasn't helped by one of his assistants who failed to spot that both Kewell and Viduke were offside for the Australia equaliser.

A truly terrible display of refereeing

[DmanDmythDledge]

I didn't see Poll tonight but generally in this WC the refereeing has not been great. I've noticed that the assistants are also getting a number of offside calls wrong on numerous occasions.

[Metrostars]

I would also like to add that the penalty for Ghana against the US was a very bad decision. Completely changed the game and allowed Ghana to sit back in the second half.

[Soko]

I know a guy who missed his yankee, a pretty big sum of money, because Poll blew up early on what was a certain Australian goal at the end. Brutal performance and I hope he gets punished for it

[RonnieB]

I havent been able to see many of the games due to time difference and the fact sky own all live rights here :( but there seems to be a crazy amount of yellow cards per game. Are the games really that "dirty"?

[Metrostars]

I havent been able to see many of the games due to time difference and the fact sky own all live rights here :( but there seems to be a crazy amount of yellow cards per game. Are the games really that "dirty"?

To me, it seems the game has become a non-contact sport.

[Superhoops]

I know a guy who missed his yankee, a pretty big sum of money, because Poll blew up early on what was a certain Australian goal at the end. Brutal performance and I hope he gets punished for it
The only punishment he is likely to get is that he will not get any more games to do in this WC, but he will be back in the Premiership and the CL next season.

[padzer]

I know a guy who missed his yankee, a pretty big sum of money, because Poll blew up early on what was a certain Australian goal at the end. Brutal performance and I hope he gets punished for it


I had Brazil -2, Italy, Ghana and Australia in an accumulator, shocking decisions all through that Oz and Croatia game. How de fcuk can he blow up with the ball in the 6 yard box? And how can ye book a bloke twice and not send him off?

I feel raped.

[pineapple stu]

I assumed it was a free out for the challenge on the keeper myself.

[Dodge]

Yeah I thought that too Stu, and it was fairly obvious. Shocking in general though. FIFA's official records have changed and now Simunic has only 2 yellows. The one fore the tackle on viduk in the 89th minute is gone. All to save Poll I presume. It fools nobody

[razor]

I had Brazil -2, Italy, Ghana and Australia in an accumulator, shocking decisions all through that Oz and Croatia game. How de fcuk can he blow up with the ball in the 6 yard box? And how can ye book a bloke twice and not send him off?

I feel raped.The Ghana win was fortunate to say the least and at the end I reckon if Poll didn't blow for full time he would have given a free out cos one of the Croatians was definitely fouled.

[OwlsFan]

Easy to criticise referees and linesmen. The latter's job for offside is almost a physical impossibility: how can he watch to the left when the ball is being kicked and at the same time watch to the right to see if a player is offside. If he has a squint it might help.

A referee can only give what he sees. If Poll and presumably the linesman didn't see the handball, how can he give it and if he did see it I have no doubt he would have given it.

As the the extra time, the number of minutes are only put up for guidance since it is hardly exact numbers all the time. I really think they should adopt the rugby "stop the clock" and hooter at the end. Once the time has passed on his watch, he's entitled to blow up and for everyone who had a bet on Australia winning, I am sure there were plenty who had a bet on a draw.

No excuses for booking someone 3 times though:eek:

[Roadend]

In defence of the refs, those idiotic FIFA clowns change the rules before every World Cup and then scrutinise every single decision they make to see if they can continue refereeing, adding to the already immense pressure. The three cards thing was inexcusable alright though.

[Dodge]

A referee can only give what he sees. If Poll and presumably the linesman didn't see the handball, how can he give it and if he did see it I have no doubt he would have given it.
Ow he decided the Croatian headed it is a far more pertinant question. A way more obvious handball than the one he gave earlier


In defence of the refs, those idiotic FIFA clowns change the rules before every World Cup and then scrutinise every single decision they make to see if they can continue refereeing, adding to the already immense pressure. The three cards thing was inexcusable alright though.
They didn't change any rules this time and its only right they scrutinise every decision. No referee is perfect but the better ones (the ones who make less errors) remain in the competition

[Roadend]

They did change the rules you'll find. Yellow cards for breathing on your opponent was brought in.
Also as regards the better refs staying in, Merk was world referee of the year the last two years and he's had a poor competition. If he's the yardstick and pressure to get things right is affecting him, what chance for any of the others.

[OwlsFan]

:D I suppose in theory they hope to make the game more free flowing by trying to cut down on the physical side of it. That leads to more bookings and more players missing games.

They have had some success - the back pass rule was excellent. Players pretending to be hurt is still a problem. If you stay down for more than 5 seconds you must leave the field to be treated and be only allowed back after the next stoppage in play.

[Beavis]

To me, it seems the game has become a non-contact sport.
Agreed, it is regrettably becoming less physical . I play LSL and referees are obviously influenced by what they see on television. I've found frees are given far more readily, esp in the last year or so, for things trying to muscle someone off a ball or any fair but zealous tackling.
My usual response when I get a cheap free against is 'Its no f**king basketball ref' :o

[Superhoops]

Easy to criticise referees and linesmen. The latter's job for offside is almost a physical impossibility: how can he watch to the left when the ball is being kicked and at the same time watch to the right to see if a player is offside. If he has a squint it might help.

A referee can only give what he sees. If Poll and presumably the linesman didn't see the handball, how can he give it and if he did see it I have no doubt he would have given it.....
Even you accept this as a valid point, you have to ask how he missed the 'rugby tackle'. If he did not see that then you have to query either his eyesight or his competence.

[OwlsFan]

Rugby tackle is a bit of an exaggeration wouldn't you think? He might have given it if Viduka didn't throw his hand up in the air making it look like a dive. As they say in the old cliche, I've seen penos given for more and for less.

In any event the better of the two teams went through despite the egotistical performance of Mr Poll. I have a lot of sympathy for referees but I don't actually like Poll.

[OwlsFan]

Interesting commentary on Poll here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5108722.stm

Surprising that none of the Australians pointed out to Poll his error on the two yellows.

[Dodge]

Interesting commentary on Poll here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5108722.stm

Surprising that none of the Australians pointed out to Poll his error on the two yellows.
Not being funny but they had other things on their mind...

[geysir]

Surprising that none of the Australians pointed out to Poll his error on the two yellows.
Apparantly Viduka did
"I was sure it was his second," said Viduka.
"I asked Graham how many cards had Simunic received. Graham said only one. It looks like he got it wrong."
"Everybody makes mistakes," he said.
"Graham Poll is a top quality referee. I will not say anything against him."

A positive result inspires a lot of forgiveness.

[OwlsFan]

What chance have referees in the modern game? Right from the start players are play-acting, diving, feigning injury, elbowing, appealing, shirt-pulling, trying to get an opponent booked, swearing and complaining. No help from technology that the pundits exploit.

If the World Cup has shown anything, we need the following:

(a) The clock being stopped for all to see when a player goes down.

(b) Video replays for crucial incidents if required by the ref for disallowed goals and red cards.

(c) Radio contact between a ref reviewing tapes and the ref on the field of play so that the Figo headbutt can be picked up if the ref misses it.

CHeating is ruining the game not the refs.

[Dodge]

He booked Figo for the headbutt. He made the wrong choice.

[OwlsFan]

He booked Figo for the headbutt. He made the wrong choice.

Headbutts are an automatic red so the linesman must have given him the incorrect information.

[pineapple stu]

(a) The clock being stopped for all to see when a player goes down.
No need. The ref just adds the time on. Just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it isn't happening.


(b) Video replays for crucial incidents if required by the ref for disallowed goals and red cards.
No. If a ref has to consult a video for every decision, the game would degenerate into a farce. If someone else is watching a video from the stand and letting the ref know every time he made a mistake, you'd breed a new generation of useless refs unable to make a decision for themselves.


(c) Radio contact between a ref reviewing tapes and the ref on the field of play so that the Figo headbutt can be picked up if the ref misses it.
No need. The ref has two linesmen for that exact purpose. That they didn't spot the Figo incident or the Sneijder push (which, ridiculously, was also only a yellow) is the real issue.

[geysir]

Anyway, I don't see how Figo's slight nod of the head could have made any contact with Van Bommell's face and then the few seconds delay before Van Bommell hit the grass in agony. Hard to tell who's the bigger príck.

[OwlsFan]

No need. The ref just adds the time on. Just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it isn't happening..

Transparency. The players and fans can see what the clock is stopped for an how long is left.



No. If a ref has to consult a video for every decision, the game would degenerate into a farce. If someone else is watching a video from the stand and letting the ref know every time he made a mistake, you'd breed a new generation of useless refs unable to make a decision for themselves...

I didn't say every decision. I said red cards and goals which the ref feels he needs to refer to a 4th Official. Many of these are not contentious and surely it is more important to get the decision correct than have a minute's delay. It has to come and it would be the end of Andy Gray etc perpetually going on about refereeing decisions.



No need. The ref has two linesmen for that exact purpose. That they didn't spot the Figo incident or the Sneijder push (which, ridiculously, was also only a yellow) is the real issue.

This is the less important of the 3 but linesman obviously didn't see the headbutt otherwise it would have been a straight red. I suspect he thought it was a push or something like that.

[Soko]

Well that was an outstanding first half display for the linesman. He let Adriano away with 2 clear offsides, one almost resulting in a goal and the second was a goal. Its beyond belief how he missed those 2 clear decisions.

[OwlsFan]

It is almost a physical impossibility to get all offsides correct - how can you be looking two places at the same time (unless cross eyed). Very difficult task. Wouldn't like that job at all.

[geysir]

The correct term to use is figobutt, not headbutt
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41811000/jpg/_41811864_figobutt203.jpg

[pineapple stu]

Transparency. The players and fans can see what the clock is stopped for an how long is left.
But what's to gain from that? I wouldn't be bothered, to be honest. Wouldn't mind seeing a return to not knowing how much injury time was to be played, to be honest - far more exciting in tense games.


I didn't say every decision. I said red cards and goals which the ref feels he needs to refer to a 4th Official. Many of these are not contentious and surely it is more important to get the decision correct than have a minute's delay.
But this is the whole point - if you create refs who are able to defer any contentious decision to a video ref, they'll soon be unable to make any decision on their own. Suddenly your one minute delay is getting multiplied by five...ten...fifteen consultations a match. These decisions even themselves out over time - people get far too hooked up on getting them right all the time. And as Munster will tell you, even the video replay's not infallible. Where do you go then?


This is the less important of the 3 but linesman obviously didn't see the headbutt otherwise it would have been a straight red. I suspect he thought it was a push or something like that.
It barely qualified as a head-butt to be honest. I'd actually agree with geysir above. In which case, I'd proffer the contentious opinion that the punishment fitted the crime perfectly.

[Colie]

Ref in Potugal Holland was right on most occassions so I think its the players that should be getting the grief not the ref on that one coz I heard of him getting a load of stick.

[pineapple stu]

Definitely. Hard to argue against any of the reds, to be honest. He even missed a couple! :eek:

[Marked Man]

It is almost a physical impossibility to get all offsides correct - how can you be looking two places at the same time (unless cross eyed). Very difficult task. Wouldn't like that job at all.

In general I would agree, but Brazil's second goal should have been an easy call: the ball wasn't played to Adriano from a long way behind him. The passer was more or less in line with Adriano, so the linesman wouldn't have had to watch two places at once for that.

And as for yesterday's penno for Italy...

[geysir]

The ball was flicked onto Adriano (in an offside position) by the defender.

[Soko]

The ball was flicked onto Adriano (in an offside position) by the defender.



And the ball was crossed in by Cafu? with Adriano in an offside position. The defender flicking it is irrelevant.

[OwlsFan]

Anyway, I don't see how Figo's slight nod of the head could have made any contact with Van Bommell's face and then the few seconds delay before Van Bommell hit the grass in agony. Hard to tell who's the bigger príck.


Have a look here. Seems like good contact.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41811000/jpg/_41811864_figobutt203.jpg

[geysir]

Have a look here. Seems like good contact.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41811000/jpg/_41811864_figobutt203.jpg
I had already posted that image in post 31 :)

I'd admit contact, but a butt?

[Stuttgart88]

I had already posted that image in post 31 :)

I'd admit contact, but a butt?
Figo was lucky. Everybody knows that what he did was just an aggressive gesture rather than a full-blown headbutt but, equally, everyone also knows that this type of action almost always gets a red card while the "recipient" never has a case to answer. Ask Alan Thompson & Peter Lovenkrands.

[Stuttgart88]

Ref in Potugal Holland was right on most occassions so I think its the players that should be getting the grief not the ref on that one coz I heard of him getting a load of stick.
True. In fact the main errors the ref made were not giving straight reds to the guy who fouled Ronaldo & Deco for hacking the guy down with no intention of doing anything other than taking the guy out.

Costinha's yellows were both deserved and Van Bronckhorst's second yellow was also deserved. Both teams played the game in a deeply dishonest & sly manner and Blatter should be ashamed of his remarks. The cheating players were to blame for the high card count, not the referee.

I'll forgive Portugal if they win on Saturday though!

[NeilMcD]

Article by David Ellery the day of the Australia game before it of course. Comical reading in hindsight.

Poll hopes to keep his flag flying
By David Elleray
Our correspondent says referee's cool displays will ensure that two 'home teams' qualify
THE match between Saudi Arabia and Ukraine in Hamburg will have had a significant bearing on whether or not the English FA’s second team will progress to the knockout stages.

Graham Poll, the referee, and his assistants, Glenn Turner and Phil Sharp, knew that a good performance would greatly increase their chances of being one of the 12 or 13 refereeing teams retained for the competition’s next phase. They would have been a little tense yesterday morning as they waited for the referees’ meeting, when all of Monday’s matches were reviewed by members of the Fifa referees’ committee, but the absence of controversy and a pleasingly “low-profile” performance should bode well for the trio. They were provided with encouragement last night when it was confirmed that they will officiate the group F match between Croatia and Australia tomorrow.

*
Fortunately for Poll and his team, England’s qualification for the knockout phase does not reduce their chance in any significant way and the English official will not suffer as George Courtney did in Italy in 1990. Having refereed the third/fourth-place play-off four years earlier, Courtney, one of England’s finest international referees, was a pre-tournament favourite to emulate Jack Taylor, who refereed the 1974 final.

At the time, sadly for Courtney, Fifa had the strict rule that any referee whose national team progressed to the knockout stages was sent home. Fifa wanted only neutral referees, so there could be no accusations of referees influencing the outcome of matches in a way that might assist their national team.

The problem was that many of the best referees came from the top footballing nations, so most of the top referees were sent home, even though, for some, they would become “neutral” a match later if their team were eliminated. Fifa thus changed its policy and it was a good job it did because the world’s finest referee, Pierluigi Collina, of Italy, would not have been in Japan to take charge of the 2002 final.

Poll’s first match, South Korea versus Togo, went well. The only black mark was a bruise from a dead leg after a collision with a Togo player shortly before half-time. His name is probably pencilled in on the retained list.

Fifa will be looking to keep a mixture of neutral and “aligned” referees while political considerations mean that it would also like to have at least one referee from each continental confederation. Of the less celebrated footballing continents, the three Asian referees, from Singapore, Australia and Japan, have impressed me. Toru Kamikawa, of Japan, performed very well in England’s 2-0 defeat of Trinidad & Tobago.

However, the two African representatives have been less effective and Essam Abd El Fatah, from Egypt, may be a casualty, having failed to send off Tim Cahill, of Australia, for a tackle on Yuichi Komano — a lapse compounded because the foul should have resulted in a penalty for Japan and Cahill went on to score a second goal.

Until the weekend, the refereeing had been largely uncontroversial and most people I have spoken to have hardly noticed the referees, although they have commented on the greater number of cards being issued in the second round of matches.

The card rash exploded in Kaiserslautern with Jorge Larrionda, the Uruguayan referee, sending off Daniele De Rossi, of Italy, and Pablo Mastroeni and Eddie Pope, of the United States. This was only the fourth time in a World Cup finals that three players have been dismissed in a match. Few would argue with the sending-off of De Rossi for his elbow on Brian McBride. The two reds for the US were strict but not incorrect interpretations of Fifa’s instructions, so the referee broadly got it right.

For me, the most disappointing aspect was the ridiculous comments about the refereeing from David Pleat, a commentator who is usually rational and sensible about such matters.

The debate about whether or not Patrick Vieira’s powerful header for France had crossed the line before being dragged back by Lee Woon Jae, the South Korea goalkeeper, will intensify if France fail to qualify for the next stage. Fifa had hoped to have goalline technology in place in time for this tournament, but trials in Peru last year demonstrated that much work still needs to be done.

Fifa is appointing referees to the final group matches in small batches and, as the time for the announcement of each set of appointments nears, tension grows in the referees’ camp. A second match means that a referee has a good chance of remaining in Germany for the sharp end of the tournament. Poll and his colleagues’ performances in Hamburg should ensure a double FA representation; a chance of an English team in the final moves a step closer.

[micls]

Blatter should be ashamed of his remarks. The cheating players were to blame for the high card count, not the referee.

Have to agree with this. If i was the ref i think id walk out of the tournament in protest. He is given strict guielines to enforce, does it in a game where both teams were playing dirty and Blatter comes out and gives out to him about it......absolute disgrace. Referees may have been poor in some games but that fella had no choice and gets stick for it

[eirebhoy]

And the ball was crossed in by Cafu? with Adriano in an offside position. The defender flicking it is irrelevant.
I don't know about that. The last player to touch the ball before it got to Adriano was a Ghanaian therefore he can't be offside. That's my interpretation anyway but I stand corrected.

[pineapple stu]

He was offside and interfering with play when the cross went in, and so was offside from that pass. As Soko pointed out, the defender flicking it is irrelevant. The flag should have been up by then.

The cross was clealry meant for him, as proven by the fact that he scored from it, so he was interfering with play.

[micls]

I don't know about that. The last player to touch the ball before it got to Adriano was a Ghanaian therefore he can't be offside. That's my interpretation anyway but I stand corrected.

If he was offside when the ball is crossed the he is offside if he interferes with play afterwards. He got an advantage by bbeing offside when the ball was crossed and therefore was offside. The new rules(active etc.) are just confusing...if youre offside you should be called offside end of

[Clifford]

FIFA are fully responsible, in particular that Grade 1 fuc*kwit Blatter, for creating a situation whereby the referees were actively 'encouraged' to clean up the game, to severly punish anything involving 'studs up', i.e any tackle where the underside of the boot could be seen regardless of whether contact was made with the ball, as well any tackle or contact which involves an opposing player falling to the flloor. And this 'yellow card' fever has caused more of a problem that it has solved. We now get players diving at the lightest of physical contact, in the full knowledge that not only will they get the free kick they seek but the likelihood is the offending player will be booked. On Sunday, the Russian ref, through his desire to impose his authority through some early bookings, only made things worse. And it just so happened that this game involved two sides with a strong and regrettable tendency to consistently cheat, possibly moreso than many other sides. The performance of the referee was digraceful but no more so than the bulk of the players, on both teams, who contrived to make this game into the farce it became. But it is FIFA that has created this situtation, a situation where even clean tackles and legal physical contact are punished by referees who fear a FIFA blacklist if they don't comply.

On another topic I must admit I'm a bit baffled by some of the comments about tackling being no longer part of the game, and blaming that on changes in refereeing. It's down to coaching, and you hear it at every level: "don't foul", "don't dive in", "stay on your feet", "he was going nowhere". It's also down to players' fear of injury - old-fashioned crunching tackles are out because you might injure yourself, so "tackling" means the sort of late, from behind, or simply reckless foot-up challenge that gets yellow cards but is likely only to injure your opponent.

If matches without tackling are boring, why didn't you all enjoy the Holland - Portugal match? If the ref hadn't sprayed cards around, what sort of violence do you think players would have resorted to? Apart perhaps from Van Bronckhorst, who may have been unlucky, which cards weren't justified? At least two of the yellows might have been straight reds. Don't tell me you'd have not wanted a card for any of those tackles on an Irish player in an ordinary match.

Remember '66? Ramsey calling Argentina "animals"? Pele being kicked out of it in Mexico? Italy v Chile - great tributes to the old-fashioned game.

And let's not kid ourselves. The expectation at top level allows all sorts of routine physical contact that technically is holding or pushing or "careless" challenges. At the Liverpool international youth tournament last year, Mark Halsey took an under-16 match, and refs who normally do youth football (including Academy games) were wincing at some of the stuff he allowed as part and parcel of the game.

[eirebhoy]

He was offside and interfering with play when the cross went in, and so was offside from that pass. As Soko pointed out, the defender flicking it is irrelevant. The flag should have been up by then.

The cross was clealry meant for him, as proven by the fact that he scored from it, so he was interfering with play.
Why then did the referee in the Swiss-Korea game overrule his linesman offside call because the Korean was the last player to touch the ball?

Here:
http://www.zshare.net/download/frei-2-0-vs-korea-republic-zip.html

/edit - ahh. I see, the Swiss player didn't actually pass the ball to Frei so it's ok?

[micls]

Why then did the referee in the Swiss-Korea game overrule his linesman offside call because the Korean was the last player to touch the ball?

Here:
http://www.zshare.net/download/frei-2-0-vs-korea-republic-zip.html

/edit - ahh. I see, the Swiss player didn't actually pass the ball to Frei so it's ok?

Afaik yes but as i said its confusing

[geysir]

It's a learning process. What loop then allowed for Robbie to linger on that time(in a EPL game) unknown to the goalkeeper and as soon as the ball was placed on the grass Robbie could appear and bang it into the net.