A Tale of Two Coaches: Kerr v Pekerman

[wws]

Both youth coaches - both met with their respective charges in 1997 semi final - one went on to bring most those talents through to the senior team and was supported by a competent FA that knew how to develop football - the other was stabbed in the back by the FAI.

RESULT - they're at the world cup and one of the best teams to watch in it and we're not

[Reality Bites]

Get real WWS, the FAI were right to sack Kerr, in his tenure the Irish team gave the most limpless insipid array of displays i have ever witnessed as a Fan, He had neither the balls or the tactical Know how to get us to the world cup, The players didn't respect him either, he was out of his depth,, thank christ he was sacked because i couldn't take another heartless performance under Kerr..The match away to Switzerland in Basle 2003 set the trend for his tenure in charge, nothing changed after that!

[Dodge]

He definitely had the tactical know how. His results at every other level show this. what he didn't have was good enough players.

Peckerman obviously does

[Jerry The Saint]

Both youth coaches - both met with their respective charges in 1997 semi final - one went on to bring most those talents through to the senior team and was supported by a competent FA that knew how to develop football - the other was stabbed in the back by the FAI.

RESULT - they're at the world cup and one of the best teams to watch in it and we're not

I'm glad someone else mentioned this, it's been confusing me - everything I've read about the Argentina coach says he's a great manager and the TV pundits (including RTE) have praised him highly. Do they not realise this Peckerman guy has NEVER coached in the English Premier League! :eek: And he didn't come close to winning 100 caps as a player (hugely important for international management in the modern era).

It's one thing to win tournaments with little kids, anyone could do that because it's much easier than winning matches with grown-ups. Although Kerr proved how rubbish he was in the 1997 championships in Malaysia when his team failed to beat Pekerman's Argentina in the semis despite having future world stars like Aidan Lynch, Thomas Morgan and Dessie Baker in his squad. (The Argentina squad was full of no-mark journeyman like Riquelme, Cambiasso, Pablo Aimar, Lionel Scaloni, Leandro Cufre, Leonard Franco and Walter Samuel who isn't even in the current squad).


“If it was up to me, I’d give Jose Pekerman a contract for life.” These words, uttered by Julio Grondona, president of the Argentine Football Association (AFA), offer a good indication of the esteem in which the national coach is held.

Those crazy South Americans!

[wws]

continuity is a great thing

the contrast in the way things are done is significant

world football keeps moving on and we go and hire the walsall coach

the implications of the poverty of the "english game" mentality are there for all to see this world cup


the gas part is we outplayed pekerman with cambiasso et all for large parts of 97 - now we've regressed more put em under pressure Mick byrne ballacks

we'll never progress with that mindset

[NeilMcD]

Lads this would be a point if Kerr was never given the Irish job. But he was given the job and we finished out of the top 2 twice the first time we did that since Eoin Hand. Kerr said judge me on my results and he was which is fair enough. I was a supporter of Kerrs right up to the end but I want the Irish manager to be judged on his results over 2 campaigns.

[wws]

its really down to the football culture you aspire to

we've gone for short sighted adulation of the failed football across the water

we needed a coach to ingrain a new brand of professional thinking and attitude - if that tooke two or three failed campaigns it would be worth it (mindful of the fact that pretty much everyone agrees we're deficient in squad terms of world class players to work with for the last few years)

anyone who has watched the great football of teams in this world cup knows that deep down we're not even aspiring to that level with our actions to date

[NeilMcD]

Where were the signs that this was happening under Kerr. Long term planning is the way ahead I agree. But does it have to come at the expense of short term qualification. I think not. Also it is not the job of the Manager of the national team to in charge of long term strategic planning. That should be done in the background, out of the spotlight and pressures of qualification and the media and all that entails. Your ideas are good but I would disagree with the practcalities about how you go about it.

I think Kerr would be brilliant in the job you talk about but I dont think that job is for the Irish football manager. They should work in conjunction. It is like Frank Arnesen and Jose Mourinhio at Chelsea.

[stickyjoe]

wws I was like you delighted when kerr managed to get the Ireland job and defended him from Premiership worshipping supporters who were demanding that some clown like Peter Reid get the job.

But Kerrs reign was nothing short of a disaster. His tactics belonged back in the Italia 90 era. The football was atrocious and the displays in Cyprus/Basle were among the worst I ever seen from an Irish side and I just about seen the latter parts of Eoin Hands regime. Most of the players also seem to have disliked the regime.

His competitive record in charge was woeful only beating Faroes,Cyprus,Georgia,Albania and his use of friendlies was a joke, treating them as seriously as competitive matches and not experimenting or trying out youngsters.

Although I agree that harking back to the days of Mick Byrne isn`t exactly a step forward ultimately Kerr had to go.

[NeilMcD]

Great post Joe and I also would like to add that the appointment of Mick Byrne is not half as significant as people are making out. He is a cheerleader there to boost the spirits of the squad no more no less. It does not mean that all of a sudden the players will not prepare properly etc. There is more to football than just preparation. There are tactics, motivation fitness and many other aspects. You need to get all right rather than just a select one or two.

[Stuttgart88]

harking back to the days of Mick Byrne isn`t exactly a step forward Stan made the point that the whole camp was lacking in strong personalities & strong characters. If bringing back Mick Byrne goes some way to fix the problem then 100% fine by me. It's hardly indicative of resorting to outdated football methods.

Look, there are so many things we can complain about in the way the FAI goes about his business. Any manager, domestically nurtured or nurtured in the UK or wherever will face the same problems. But as themanager of the team the results were poor, the attitude was wrong, he lost the dressing room, the use of friendlies was wrong, the use of personnel (in my amteur opinion) was wrong and so on. It clearly was just not working.

Take the following most recent competitive games in sequence: Israel away, Israel at home, Faroes away, France at home, Cyprus away, Switzerland at home. Which of these showed signs that Kerr was up to the task? If my results at work fell this far short of my targets I'd be long gone out of here.

I'd personally love to see someone like Kerr take overall charge of the FAI but that's a different story.

[wws]

Pekermans 2006 argentina are playing the same way that Pekermans 1997 Argentina team played - the continuity of doing it right is the central point - their is no short termism. Its this central fact that we in Ireland arent grasping - fck respect of the players/judge me on reults or any baloney we are simply not serious about changing the football we aspire to playing - and we will NEVER do well if we dont aspire to being like the best and doing it right

hint - we're currently doing it wrong

I've no problem with the english prem - its a great league but our footballing horizons are extremely limited by it - its not the be all and end all and english football has a lot of limitations

we shoul learn from the best at this world cup because plainly we wernt paying attention in 1997 - absolute disgrace that half their team went on to be at the 2006 WC and half our ended up the LoI - it says it all to me

[Stuttgart88]

Somebody posted a few months ago the Argentinian squad that beat us the the World Youth Cup semi-finals. Most of that squad are household names now. Only a handful of the Irish squad are doing anything of note, if I recall correctly.

Didn't we beat Ghana in the 3rd place play off, or were Ghana in the final? I've only a hazy memory at this stage. But if I'm right, how many of those Ghanaians are in the WC06 squad?

[NeilMcD]

But the Senior team under Kerr did not play the same way as the underage teams did. When did we ever see the 4 3 3 . So the continuity argument goes out the window. The reason that Perkerman has been kept in the job at underage because he was achieving success with good football. He was then given the senior managers job, just like Kerr. The difference is that Pekerman has continued to play the same way he did as an underage coach and has put faith in his young players at the expense of the older player. Kerr did not do this, given fewer debuts than any manager in recent memory.

You are not comparing like with like here. Kerr played negative boring football , this was not the best and this was nothing to do with not aspiring to be the best etc. His tactics were seriously flawed at the highest level.

[wws]

Somebody posted a few months ago the Argentinian squad that beat us the the World Youth Cup semi-finals. Most of that squad are household names now. Only a handful of the Irish squad are doing anything of note, if I recall correctly.

Didn't we beat Ghana in the 3rd place play off, or were Ghana in the final? I've only a hazy memory at this stage. But if I'm right, how many of those Ghanaians are in the WC06 squad?


as i edited my post above thats to our footballs shame

same player in blue n white in 1997 would have been developed


we've small minds in this country and we cant grasp the potential we have if we do it right

anyway back to the walsall assistant manager and "team spirit" :rolleyes:

[eirebhoy]

While Kerr failed in his time as Ireland manager I don't understand why people blame his tactics. His tactics in Israel were absolutely spot on. They are a team that plays on the break. They let you attack them and catch you on the hop when you lose possession. The best thing to do in that case is don't give them possession. You seen that with Roy Keane. He was free in space and could have crossed the ball in but decided just to pass it back to midfield. It was very unlucky that we lost a goal in the last minute but if we'd have won that game we would have been the first team to win in Israel in a decade and a half and Kerr would have been praised.

The other games that we lost leads was nothing more than losing the nerve. Whether that was down to Kerr's lack of motivational skills I don't know but you don't tell a team to go and attack the French in Paris but just sit back on a point in Basle. I couldn't fault his tactics but I know for a fact that he could have certainly done with Martin O'Neill type speaches at half time.

Kerr didn't play boring football. He played very attractive football as we seen in the friendlies and in Paris. You don't play attractive football in friendlies and change your tactics for the important games. It's not his fault that Irish players lose their nerve when their favourites to win outside of Lansdowne.

[Stuttgart88]

The difference is that Pekerman has continued to...put faith in his young players at the expense of the older player. Kerr did not do this, given fewer debuts than any manager in recent memory.
Absolutely agree.

When Kerr went the Tribune ran the headline "End of an Era: the McCarthy Era" and it was 100% correct.

[NeilMcD]

I do not take pleasure in been critical of Kerr however I cant let my prejudice deceive my eyes.

[Stuttgart88]

we would have been the first team to win in Israel in a decade and a half and Kerr would have been praised.Did Israel play all their home games in Israel in that period?

Sure, Kerr could have had more luck and who knows, better results may have led to better morale, and better susbsequent performances and so on.

Bad luck:
Nothing at all went our way at home to Israel. That game was an absolute freak
Bad offside calls in Basle
Speculative equaliser in Tel Aviv
Switzerland's late winner against Cyprus
Timing of French players returning to the scene
Injuries & suspensions at key times
O'shea's shot in Paris
Barthez not getting sent off
Getting Markus Merk for the Swiss match

But we had good luck too:
Getting ANYTHING from the game in Cyprus
Faroes not going 1 up from a corner at 0-0
Shay Given rescuing us in Basle
Half the French team getting injured or suspended for Paris
Almost every other result in the group suiting us

But, as you know & we'll agree to differ, I do believe that tactics & substitutions, especially in the two Israel games were a big factor.

I consistently felt we should judge Kerr on the whole campaign. By the time we got to the last 2 games Kerr had a few too many entries in the debit column, but he could have scored ponts in the credit column to even things up. He didn't. The last two games were the stuff of nightmares.

[eirebhoy]

Who should Kerr have played that he didn't play? I think that's ridiculous.

He has little choice but to stick with McCarthy's tried and trusted during the Euro qualifiers but after that there were major changes. The difference between the team that lost in McCarthy's game in charge and the team that played the first WC qualifier against Cyprus is huge. The only players to occupy the same position in both teams were Given, Cunningham and Keane.

O'Shea replaced Harte
Carr replaced Kelly
O'Brien replaced Breen
Kilbane replaced Kinsella (Kilbane got player of the year for his performances in the centre so it turned out to be a good move)
Kavanagh replaced Holland
A.Reid replaced Healy
Duff replaced Kilbane (on the left)
Morrison replaced Duff (up front)

He gave debuts to over 15 players, most of which just weren't/aren't good enough.


Did Israel play all their home games in Israel in that period?
No but I think the unbeaten run stretched to 20-30 games.

[wws]

He gave debuts to over 15 players, most of which just weren't/aren't good enough.

Unfortunately True.

a lotta people just want the good times back but dont understand that it takes more than just debuting 50 sub standard players in every friendly - a lot more.

[NeilMcD]

Eirebhoy I think the point that is made here is that Kerr was a great manager but WWS is trying to say that he is up there with Pekerman man and if it was not for those pesky kids (The FAI) that we would be in a world Cup semi Final with Kerr as the manager. There is a lot more to that. Number one reason is talen. Argentinas players have the talent and drive to go to the top. Are guys did not. Its all very well saying we were on a par with the same guys at under 18. But as Liam Brady has said, every young guy that leaves Ireland to play football is talented But luck, drive passion and many other factores come into it. Not sure it helps that all our players are coached by English coaches and we dont have mixed coaching cultures.

[NeilMcD]

Come on WWS give us your 10 point what should have happend from 1997.

[wws]

1 John Delaney and his ilk should have been shot
2 Roy Keane and Brian Kerr should have been put in charge or at the very least ppl who shared their vision
3 Mick Byrne and co should have been put out to grass
4 money should have poured in to creating a link between youth development and our National Senior clubs


thats 4 for starters!

[drinkfeckarse]

Kerr may well have had the technical know how but the team lacked passion with him at the helm and that is just as important as getting your tactics right. Ultimately the buck stopped with him over why that was and it was the right decision IMO to sack him.

Very valid points wws re Mick Byrne but if he's only there to put a smile back on the players faces well then that will help them on the park IMO.

[pineapple stu]

Didn't we beat Ghana in the 3rd place play off, or were Ghana in the final? I've only a hazy memory at this stage. But if I'm right, how many of those Ghanaians are in the WC06 squad?
We beat Ghana 2-1 in the 3rd place play off (after losing to them in the gorup stages). Dessie Baker scored after about 20 seconds and Duffer also scored.

[Bald Student]

We beat Ghana 2-1 in the 3rd place play off (after losing to them in the gorup stages). Dessie Baker scored after about 20 seconds and Duffer also scored.Are you sure? I could have sworn that Aidan Lynch scored the winner in that game.

[pineapple stu]

Nope - he got carted off injured after about 25 minutes.

[Dodge]

Thought Glen Crowe got the other goal in the 3rd/4th play off

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_FIFA_World_Youth_Championship_(squads)
Some well known players in those squads. 2 points for the person who can name all 6 players who went on to play for Pats. 5 points to whoever can tell me what happened that Brazilian top scorer

[Stuttgart88]

We beat Ghana 2-1 in the 3rd place play off (after losing to them in the gorup stages). Dessie Baker scored after about 20 seconds and Duffer also scored.
OK, I'll dig up the respective squads to compare. Back in 4 hours!

eirebhoy, there was just so much "same old, same old" and things that COULD have changed: McGeady, who ran Colocchini(spelling?) ragged at Celtic, barely got a sniff, Duff being repeatedly played as a striker, players like Reid, Dunne & Delap exiled, Doherty as super-sub, Carr favoured over Finnan, players who actually did do well in friendlies were ditched again...

I thought the future was bright after Holland in June 2004, just like I thought it was bright after Finland in August 2002. Why did it all go so wrong?

The initial premise was that the FAI was the difference between Pekerman & Kerr. A key element of Pekerman's teams' progress was the fact that Argentina are in total control over their players' development. We're almost totally dependent on a foreign league & a foreign system that can no longer be relied upon to develop our players, and even if it could, they'd be turned out technically inequipped to compete with the best foreign sides anyway. Whatever you think about Delaney I don't think anyone could have solved this problem over that time period, but as I said above, I'd feel far more confident about the whole football set up in Ireland if someone like Kerr was in charge.

[frankbrett]

Argentina 1997 youth squad

1 FRANCO Leonardo
20/05/1977
2 CUFRE Leonardo
09/05/1978
3 SAMUEL Walter
23/03/1978
4 SERRIZUELA Juan
25/01/1977
5 CAMBIASSO Esteban
18/08/1980
6 MARKIC Diego
09/01/1977
7 QUINTANA Diego
24/04/1978
8 RIQUELME Juan
24/06/1978
9 ROMEO Bernardo
10/09/1977
10 AIMAR Pablo
03/11/1979
11 RODRIGUEZ Pablo
07/03/1977
12 MUNOZ Cristian
01/07/1977
13 CUBERO Fabian
21/12/1978
14 PLACENTE Diego
24/04/1977
15 PEREZLINDO Martin
03/01/1977
16 DIEZ Nicolas
09/02/1977
17 ROMERO Sebastian
27/04/1978
18 SCALONI Lionel
16/05/1978

[Stuttgart88]

OK, I'll dig up the respective squads to compare. Back in 4 hours!
Sorry, didn't see the posts above.

[pineapple stu]

Thought Glen Crowe got the other goal in the 3rd/4th play off
Nope, definitely Duffer. Quality finish from the edge of the box after being played through. Think he also crossed for Baker to score as well. Have the game on video at home.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_FIFA_World_Youth_Championship_(squads))
You were missing a bracket on that link - think that's OK now.


Some well known players in those squads. 2 points for the person who can name all 6 players who went on to play for Pats. 5 points to whoever can tell me what happened that Brazilian top scorer.
Oooh, I like points!

Trevor Molloy, Derek O'Connor, Thomas Morgan and Colin Hawkins for a start. Spotted Con Blatsis down the way. And of course Jeff Clarke. Yayyy!

Three of those players actually ended up at UCD as well - want a guess at to which three? Two are fairly easy, one not so.

No idea about the Brazilian.

That French squad is phenomenal!!

[Soko]

Take the following most recent competitive games in sequence: Israel away, Israel at home, Faroes away, France at home, Cyprus away, Switzerland at home. Which of these showed signs that Kerr was up to the task? If my results at work fell this far short of my targets I'd be long gone out of here.



That says it all really, he had to go. That sequence of results and performances was an absolute disgrace and got worse as time went on.

[pineapple stu]

That sequence of results and performances[...]got worse as time went on.
Think that's the most important point. Regression, not progression.

[Jerry The Saint]

Here's the FIFA page:

http://www.fifa.com/en/comp/PrevTeams/0,6838,WYC-1997-112,00.html

Never realised Blast'dis and Clarke were in that tournament.

List of Goalscorers:



Players Played Total Goals Penalty Goals
ADAILTON (BRA)
5 10 2
TREZEGUET David (FRA)
5 5 0
SALAPASIDIS Kosta (AUS)
4 4 1
ALEX (BRA)
5 4 0
YANAGISAWA Atsushi (JPN)
5 4 1
ROMEO Bernardo (ARG)
7 4 0
ZALAYETA Marcelo (URU)
7 4 0
RIQUELME Juan (ARG)
7 4 2
VAN HANDENHOVEN Gunter (BEL)
4 3 0
LILLINGSTON Eduardo (MEX)
4 3 1
MURPHY Danny (ENG)
4 3 1
OWEN Michael (ENG)
4 3 1
DEUS (ESP)
5 3 0
HENRY Thierry (FRA)
5 3 0



From the England squad:



14 MACKEN Jonathan
07/09/1977

Heh-heh.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think that the main reason why our underage superstars did not develop into future senior internationals was that they were being shipped off to England at the earliest opportunity because the LoI is not up to standard. It would have been far better if the players were able to make sufficient progress playing in Ireland but that would have damaged the players development. Many of the players obviously did not have the drive and determination to make it to the top. They were left in the hands of an English club which did not have the players development as a priority. Most Argentinian and Brazilians leave their country to play in Europe at the age of 20/21 and staying at home has done them good. Basically the point I'm making is that a players development is best nutured at home but this can only be done by implementing a youth system similar to the South Americans and then hope that the EL will continue to sustain the levels of progress it has made in the past few years, so that more Irish underage stars will play their trade at home.

[stickyjoe]

[QUOTE=eirebhoy]we'd have won that game we would have been the first team to win in Israel in a decade and a half and Kerr would have been praised.
QUOTE]

israel never had an unbeaten record in israel like that. in 99 they even got hammered 5-0 by denmark in isreal in the euro 2000 qualifying play off

[NeilMcD]

Also getting back to the original post, I dont think that Pekerman would be in charge if he failed to qualify for the World Cup with Argentina. its all very well praising their FA for keeping faith and claiming the FAI are backstabbers but Pekerman has been successful in charge and Kerr was not. I think Kerr is more suited to the role that Stuttgart has hinted at rather than as national team manager.



Also WWS many irish fans would be appaled at the thought of Roy Keane in charge of the Irish team. I would not but I could understand their anger.

[NeilMcD]

1 John Delaney and his ilk should have been shot
2 Roy Keane and Brian Kerr should have been put in charge or at the very least ppl who shared their vision
3 Mick Byrne and co should have been put out to grass
4 money should have poured in to creating a link between youth development and our National Senior clubs


thats 4 for starters!


So you are encouraging murder or attempted murder. What do you mean Delaney and his ilk should have been shot what exactly does that mean.


kerr was put in charge and Keane was brought back and we failed to qualify or to improve performances

What exactly has Mick Byrne done wrong. he is not a physio he is there to increase team spirit hardly a bad thing.


I agree with the 4th aspect but that is to do with Government funding.

[Noelys Guitar]

I cannot remember going all the way back to John Giles of so many Irish players lambasting an Irish manager. Kerr was not up to the job. He lost the dressing room. He has not been appointed an ANY other club or country since being sacked. What happened to the South Africa job which according to Kerr's mates in the media he had already been offered?..The India job?..The mysterious Champions league team which for some reason had to remain "unnamed!

[drinkfeckarse]

So you are encouraging murder or attempted murder.

:rolleyes: You still have a bad habit of taking everything too far Neil...

[NeilMcD]

No we are having a debate on what should be done with the future of the FAI. I dont know WWS so I am asking him to explain his comment in relation to Delaney should be shot. What exactly does he mean by this. I am not sure how Delaney been shot either literally or whatever way its mean will benefit the Irish football team. i am trying to tease these answers from WWS. What exactly does he mean when he says that Delaney should be shot.

[DmanDmythDledge]

It's a figure of speech ffs

[NeilMcD]

I know but what does the figure of speech mean in real terms in this case. The context of this was a 4 point plan in order to improve the way Irish football is run. So what does it mean as a figure of speech that Delaney and his ilk should be shot. I would think that if you are putting forward a 10 point or 4 point plan on the way forward for Irish football, figure of speeches and coliquial terms such as someone should be shot really dont add anything to the debate. I am not sure of the constructive merits of it.

[wws]

The answer is that Alex now plays for Japan!

[osarusan]

I know but what does the figure of speech mean in real terms in this case. The context of this was a 4 point plan in order to improve the way Irish football is run. So what does it mean as a figure of speech that Delaney and his ilk should be shot. I would think that if you are putting forward a 10 point or 4 point plan on the way forward for Irish football, figure of speeches and coliquial terms such as someone should be shot really dont add anything to the debate. I am not sure of the constructive merits of it.


Agreed. wws started this post, and when asked to put forward ideas to support his point, put as his first point either a figure of speech, or a bad joke.
Everybody knows its a figure of speech, but for a person argueing so vehemently that the FAI are to blame, his points didnt help him out.

[Jerry The Saint]

I dont know WWS so I am asking him to explain his comment in relation to Delaney should be shot. What exactly does he mean by this. I am not sure how Delaney been shot either literally or whatever way its mean will benefit the Irish football team. i am trying to tease these answers from WWS. What exactly does he mean when he says that Delaney should be shot.

I'm still waiting for wws to answer this important question - should we shoot Delaney gangland-style or execution-style? At the very least we should give his car some speed holes...

[Schumi]

Out of a cannon I say. :D

[wws]

I just got a cheque in the door from Genesis for my 4 point plan....


no wait its from Ollie Byrne....sh:t not worth the paper its written on! :D