Shels line up Investors

[higgins]

You maintain a wage bill that seems to be beyond your capabilities. You incur further debt by continuing to have such a big squad. You don't seem to really have money to pay them on your current income.


Considering Shels have paid the wages for as long as I can remember I would say it seems to indicate it is within our capabilities.
I think it far too much myself but you cant say we don’t pay the wages when there is nothing to back it up other then friends of friends of friends who know a player. It wouldnt come as a major shock if one day Shels cant pay the high wages but calm down until you see players leave.



Bills are one thing, wages are another. If you cannot pay the wages on time there is something wrong. Also, above all, the taxman's bills are the ones you don't let yourself get behind on.


Lots of EL clubs owe the taxman money. It was fairly common up until a year or two before they put more control on it. Shels made a bad call on not keeping up their payments and as a result their bluff was called but again that bill WAS PAID.



I can't speak for other clubs but you had a winding up order issued in the national newspapers. You talk about all debt as if it is the same. There's healthy debt and unhealthy debt. Running up a large debt with the taxman and only paying it after you get the winding up order is unhealthy debt.


The winding up order came as a shock to most EL fans I would expect and wouldn’t have happened a few years back.
That bill was PAID!!



The time they got their winding up order from the taxman? The time they couldn't get a programme out for the Bohs game because they owed the printers money? The time you couldn't pay the players wages on time?


Shels always pay the money they owe to people but as I said they aim high and cash flow can be a problem at times.
Printers and taxmen will get their money in FULL. Its not cheating until you don’t pay.. If an EL club goes to the bank for a loan they wont all get the same amount, different clubs have different levels of debt and different capabilities of paying that debt.

If I was the owner of a club I would always try to have money there for every bill and pay on time but it’s a little different in the real world and sometimes things don’t go to plan.



If you can't budget properly and incur a long term debt you can't guarantee you can pay off then you are cheating.


ALL BILLS WERE PAID!!!!!!!!!!!
Its not cheating



I'm basing it on the fact you need bridging loans to pay your tax debts, you failed to pay the players on time, you even seemed to fail to pay the programme printers. There's obviously something wrong.


Shels have had plenty of loans in the past to pay bills. Like any other debts loans will be paid off over time and everyone gets their money!!



Higgins, you're obviously not a fan of fiscal prudence. You advocate splashing cash now and worrying about it later. Put Peter Ridsdale into Google and have a read about "living the dream" and so on.

That’s not true.
If it was me there I wouldnt spend anything now if I didn’t know where the money was coming from but Ollies track record of paying his debts is fairly impressive.

What bills are not paid by the way or are you just making it up?

[Poor Student]

What bills are not paid by the way or are you just making it up?

Higgins I see where you're going with this one. Yes, now all the bills have been paid, but it seems with great difficulty. The national media has confirmed you're getting advance payments on the sale of Tolka, it's the only way you seem able to pay those bills. Aside from the sale of your capital asset you don't seem to be able to pay the bills. That is fiscal suicide as the capital asset will eventually be gone. You don't seem to even be able to transfer that capital asset into liquid cash. Ok, you may be able to get in investment and you may be able to secure a new home and sell Tolka off fully but these are ifs and buts and you have budgeting and spent on these being absolute conditions. You can't run a football club like that, it's reckless.

[higgins]

Higgins I see where you're going with this one. Yes, now all the bills have been paid, but it seems with great difficulty. The national media has confirmed you're getting advance payments on the sale of Tolka, it's the only way you seem able to pay those bills. Aside from the sale of your capital asset you don't seem to be able to pay the bills. That is fiscal suicide as the capital asset will eventually be gone. You don't seem to even be able to transfer that capital asset into liquid cash. Ok, you may be able to get in investment and you may be able to secure a new home and sell Tolka off fully but these are ifs and buts and you have budgeting and spent on these being absolute conditions. You can't run a football club like that, it's reckless.

great difficulty is correct!!

I dont for one second think taking bridging loans on the sale of Tolka Park to be doing good business. I have tried to add some facts into the debate but I have never suggested this was a great way to run a football club. Its worrying, very worrying but its not cheating. Cheating would you not paying the massive debts you built up.

I think all clubs should be able to carry on until it comes to the time where they cant manage their debts. When that day happens there should be laws in place to punish the clubs but friends of friends saying people have not got their money and two players walked does not really amount to cheating.

Players are sold all the time or released from contracts when the club can no longer afford their wages and if that day comes soon then well and good but you are jumping the gun a small bit with some of the stories being posted.

Just for the record I dont agree with a lot of the ways Shels run their affairs but its easy for me to say that. I couldnt handle the pressure thats for sure but I will defend those who run the club when I know some of whats posted on here to be a complete twisted version of the truth.

[aido1895]

Oh and the reasons players don't walk away higgins is that there's a transfer embargo. Add in the fact that Shels pay way, way above what others do and you can see why the players stick around that little longer hoping to get their money

Is that a fact Dodge ? Id love to see your proof because I for one know of a certain team offering players considerably more money than Shels .

[Dodge]

I didn't say all others aido but in general most clubs could not pay the wages shels do

[Anto McC]

True. Ollie'll be OK though 'cos it seems most Shels fans don't really care what happens at the club so long as they keep winning.

Are you suggesting we murder Ollie if things go belly up?

[pineapple stu]

Well, seeing as you ask...yes.

I'll give you a hand if you want. :)

[Anto McC]

Nah you're alright,it's against my religion :)

[Dr.Nightdub]

Higgins, put it like this: Shels have sold off their car to pay for petrol. Does that make it any clearer to you?

The cheating part arises from outbidding your rivals for players when you haven't got the money to pay up on the salaries with which you enticed them. It works like this:

Act 1
Manager of Nightdub Athletic: We'll pay you €800 a week.
Player X: Oooh I like the sound of that.
Ollie: We'll pay you €1500 a week.
Player X: Oooh I like the sound of that even better.
Audience: Behind you! ("Man on!" doesn't really hack it in pantomine terms) He hasn't got €1500 a week to pay you!
Ollie: Oh yes I have!
Audience: Oh no he hasn't!

Player X signs for Shels anyway. Six months later, they're ahead of Nightdub Athletic in the chase for the League title and Player X is their top goal scorer.

Act 2
Player X: Ollie, you owe me wages.
Ollie: The taxman's taken all my dough...(this bit can work as a musical interlude if you're a Kinks fan)...here's a nice shiny medal instead.

That's cheating. It's cheating the player and it's cheating the competition.

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally, how much have Pat's lost in the last two years...?

[soccerc]

Incidentally, how much have Pat's lost in the last two years...?


Go and log onto cro.ie, pay the small fee and you'll get all the info you need!

I know you want to, go on, go on..............................

[Dodge]

Incidentally, how much have Pat's lost in the last two years...?
More than UCD, less than Shels

[higgins]

Spending money you dont have Dodge??
Is that cheating!! :)

[pineapple stu]

Go and log onto cro.ie, pay the small fee and you'll get all the info you need!

I know you want to, go on, go on..............................
It was a rhetorical question. ;)

I've downloaded the accounts for Bray, Cork, Drogheda, Dublin City, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Pat's, Rovers and Waterford from the CRO. No other club operates as a company, though info's been posted here about Bohs and Harps, while I have a decent understanding of UCD's accounts (though I'm not that much involved in the club).

[soccerc]

It was a rhetorical question. ;)

I've downloaded the accounts for Bray, Cork, Drogheda, Dublin City, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Pat's, Rovers and Waterford from the CRO. No other club operates as a company, though info's been posted here about Bohs and Harps, while I have a decent understanding of UCD's accounts (though I'm not that much involved in the club).

Bohs are a company, but the incorporated name is as gaelige. You need to search for them under Cumann Peile Boithemach (sp) Teo:cool:

[pineapple stu]

Spot iontach é sin - maith an fear! :)

Did a business name search on all the clubs to find their trading names - think I didn't bother with Bohs because I knew it was a members' club and therefore not a company!

[NY Hoop]

Are there any shels fans here who acknowledge what is realy going on at their club cos all I've seen are a few kids who are to put it mildly scaringly ignorant.

The players were given cheques before they departed for Lithuania and these bounced magoo style all over the place when they arrived home. The manager is owed a five figure sum. This is common knowledge and just cos its not in all the papers doesnt mean its not true.

KOH

[Poor Student]

The players were given cheques before they departed for Lithuania and these bounced magoo style all over the place when they arrived home.

First I've heard of that bit NY Hoop. Any source?

[WeAreRovers]

First I've heard of that bit NY Hoop. Any source?

This news is everywhere and the source is a high-ranking Shels employee. Shels are totally and utterly fooked. Anyone who doesn't realise this is fooling themselves as surely as Ollie is fooling them.

Shels are currently a mix of SRFC 1987 and SRFC 2005 - Ollie is doing a great impression of Kilcoyne and Maguire and the same time.

KOH

[Poor Student]

If the money is still owed that we certainly have an intriguing July ahead of us. Surely though, going by rumours, they'd have walked out again if they had walked out before?:confused:

[Dodge]

Threatened to walk out. They hear stories of money coming to Shels and stick around for their share. Nobody else will pay Colin Hawkins or Dabve Rogers well above €1,000 a week

[pineapple stu]

Not much point walking out now when the transfer window's open next week surely?

[Poor Student]

Nobody else will pay Colin Hawkins or Dabve Rogers well above €1,000 a week

There is one club, Drogheda.

[DmanDmythDledge]

This news is everywhere and the source is a high-ranking Shels employee. Shels are totally and utterly fooked. Anyone who doesn't realise this is fooling themselves as surely as Ollie is fooling them.

Shels are currently a mix of SRFC 1987 and SRFC 2005 - Ollie is doing a great impression of Kilcoyne and Maguire and the same time.

KOH
Where is it mentioned then?

[WeAreRovers]

Where is it mentioned then?

In a phonecall I received yesterday, at the game last night, in the pub afterwards, in work this morning etc, etc.

This is a tiny league, everyone knows everyone else. Just because the hacks are in thrall to Ollie and won't do a bit of digging doesn't mean it ain't so.

They all reported Ollie's "new investors" story as gospel despite the fact that it was a blatant lie. I heard him myself on Newstalk and nearly chocked on my Parma ham on turnover sandwich.

KOH

[higgins]

Are there any shels fans here who acknowledge what is realy going on at their club cos all I've seen are a few kids who are to put it mildly scaringly ignorant.

The players were given cheques before they departed for Lithuania and these bounced magoo style all over the place when they arrived home. The manager is owed a five figure sum. This is common knowledge and just cos its not in all the papers doesnt mean its not true.

KOH

we do know whats going on...
but there is still lies added here to the fatcs that need to be defended.
If you read back through the posts it never says all is lovely and happy in Shelsland.
Shels posters are trying to get you to stop making stuff up on the basis of rumours.
Some of what on here the past two weeks is true and some is not.....

But sure keep adding to the fire if you like, I'll join in!

Anyone hear Ollie sold the bulbs in the floodlights to pay for a football for the game on Saturday ?

[Roverstillidie]

ok higgins, yes/no answers.

did the players strike for 2 days last week due to non payment of monies owed?

is this money, or part of it, still due?

have you sold the lease to tolka park to a property consortium?

has this money been used for day to day expenditure at shels?

have the printers been paid?

has olly made any statement re the sale of tolka to the supporters?

are you moving to santry, a stadum with approx 5% of the seating capacity of tolka park?

seriously, where are the lies?

[Student Mullet]

ok higgins, yes/no answers.

did the players strike for 2 days last week due to non payment of monies owed?

is this money, or part of it, still due?

have you sold the lease to tolka park to a property consortium?

has this money been used for day to day expenditure at shels?

have the printers been paid?

has olly made any statement re the sale of tolka to the supporters?

are you moving to santry, a stadum with approx 5% of the seating capacity of tolka park?

seriously, where are the lies?May I add one?

Do you believe a stadium with covered seats for 800 people belongs in the new look premier division next season?

[higgins]

ok higgins, yes/no answers.

did the players strike for 2 days last week due to non payment of monies owed?

is this money, or part of it, still due?

have you sold the lease to tolka park to a property consortium?

has this money been used for day to day expenditure at shels?

have the printers been paid?

has olly made any statement re the sale of tolka to the supporters?

are you moving to santry, a stadum with approx 5% of the seating capacity of tolka park?

seriously, where are the lies?

I'd take a guess at 5 yes's 1 no and a maybe :)
You know enough to work out where to place the answers!

[stickyjoe]

Shels are currently a mix of SRFC 1987 and SRFC 2005

KOH

One big difference - I don`t think shels will have a taxman that is prepared to write off the couple of million that he did for rovers

[higgins]

May I add one?

Do you believe a stadium with covered seats for 800 people belongs in the new look premier division next season?

an emphatic NO!!

[Student Mullet]

an emphatic NO!!Where does that leave your move to Santry?

[higgins]

Ive not got a chance to look into the Santry thing too much the past two days.

If you have some details please post them.

Am I right your saying Shels are playing on an 800 seater stadium from the beginning of next season ?

wher eon earth did you hear that or are you doing what others do and add meat/lies to the bones of rumours.

[Student Mullet]

Ive not got a chance to look into the Santry thing too much the past two days.

If you have some details please post them.

Am I right your saying Shels are playing on an 800 seater stadium from the beginning of next season ?

wher eon earth did you hear that or are you doing what others do and add meat/lies to the bones of rumours.I don't have any details other than to say that Santry has about 800 covered seats.

[WeAreRovers]

Ive not got a chance to look into the Santry thing too much the past two days.


You see this is what baffles the rest of us, the apparant lack of interest from Shels fans in the future of your club.

You've just been told that Shels are moving lock, stock and barrel to Santry. This massive news drew 7 post to this thread - http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=6037

Meanwhile last November, discussion on our MB about a temporary move to Santry attracted 240 posts on this thread - http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=606830&CategoryID=362984&threadid=2342447&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Santry

While obviously internet talk is cheap and not representative it still beggars believe that your fanbase is ostensibly taking all this lying down.

I can confidently say that in your position we would at the very least ask the questions RTID outlined above re. Tolka, money etc. Failing any convincing answers we'd have taken action. It's your club, not his. Just like Rovers is ours and not Maguire or Kilcoyne's.

KOH

[higgins]

You see this is what baffles the rest of us, the apparant lack of interest from Shels fans in the future of your club.

You've just been told that Shels are moving lock, stock and barrel to Santry. This massive news drew 7 post to this thread - http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=6037

Meanwhile last November, discussion on our MB about a temporary move to Santry attracted 240 posts on this thread - http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=606830&CategoryID=362984&threadid=2342447&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Santry

While obviously internet talk is cheap and not representative it still beggars believe that your fanbase is ostensibly taking all this lying down.

I can confidently say that in your position we would at the very least ask the questions RTID outlined above re. Tolka, money etc. Failing any convincing answers we'd have taken action. It's your club, not his. Just like Rovers is ours and not Maguire or Kilcoyne's.

KOH

Internet talk is cheap!
I agree.......

but Imake the point how you had in parts to rumours and only a few posts later I have you saying we are moving lock stock and barrel and Student Mullet asking questions about should Shels be let into the new Premier Division having 800 seats in Santry :D

You hear one thing and assume worst case senario every time.
just wait for news and then tell us all what you think. all else guess every possible senario so as you can claim you were right all along!

Wasnt so long ago Ollie was going to run off with the money and leave us with nothing. Do you not think we should be happy that he didnt (so far!!! :p )

As for your comment about not asking questions I cant answer for every shels fan out there??? who am I or you to say they have not asked questions....

240 posts on foot wont solve a feckin thing

[higgins]

I don't have any details other than to say that Santry has about 800 covered seats.

So when you asked about next season you added that part in yourself ?
So when you asked about 800 seats you assumed nothing would be done with santry

You like making stuff up ??

If it turns out your right you'll be delighted but would you not wait for some more facts?

[Student Mullet]

So when you asked about next season you added that part in yourself ?
So when you asked about 800 seats you assumed nothing would be done with santry

You like making stuff up ??

If it turns out your right you'll be delighted but would you not wait for some more facts?I made nothing up. I asked you an honest question and you gave me an honest answer.

To answer your question, I am assuming that nothing will be done to Santry before next season because of the timing. I know nothing more on the move other than what's already placed in the public domain by Ollie Byrne and Fintan Cassidy and I never claimed to know any more.

[WeAreRovers]

but Imake the point how you had in parts to rumours and only a few posts later I have you saying we are moving lock stock and barrel and Student Mullet asking questions about should Shels be let into the new Premier Division having 800 seats in Santry :D


Eh, the Santry thing comes directly from Ollie's official mouthpiece and from the man himself on Newstalk. Surely that alone would have you up in arms? No? Oh well.

KOH

[Roverstillidie]

So when you asked about next season you added that part in yourself ?
So when you asked about 800 seats you assumed nothing would be done with santry

You like making stuff up ??

If it turns out your right you'll be delighted but would you not wait for some more facts?

you do know the first mention of santry was when Fintan Cassidy and the Oily himself announced you were going there? :rolleyes:

you have painted your self into a corner and wont back down because of the clubs of other posters.

you have sold your right to tolka to pay day to day bills. fact. you are moving to a ground that you have no guarantees that will be brought up to scratch. fact. an unknown amount of your players are all out of contract a fortnight before the transfer window opens. fact.

but rather than acknoweldge these facts and ask how and why this situation got to this extreme point, you are blanket denying there is a problem and trying to score points.

are there any sensible shels posters that actually know whats happeneing rather than higgins making a collective fool put of you
http://www.championship_606.ursatech.com/images/comical_ali.jpg

[NY Hoop]

ok higgins, yes/no answers.

did the players strike for 2 days last week due to non payment of monies owed?

is this money, or part of it, still due?

have you sold the lease to tolka park to a property consortium?

has this money been used for day to day expenditure at shels?

have the printers been paid?

has olly made any statement re the sale of tolka to the supporters?

are you moving to santry, a stadum with approx 5% of the seating capacity of tolka park?

seriously, where are the lies?

Wouldnt be arsed responding to this rainman. If they want to live in the clouds let them.

KOH

[higgins]

Eh, the Santry thing comes directly from Ollie's official mouthpiece and from the man himself on Newstalk. Surely that alone would have you up in arms? No? Oh well.

KOH

Up in arms we might be moving to santry ???
Sure Santry is the best option Ive heard in the past year!

even with its 800 seats :)

as for denying there was a problem !!:eek:
Who did that ???
I told you already everything was not ok. I told you I wouldnt run a club like that giving half a chance.

I also told you that some of what is posted is lies....

[Poor Student]

Shels posters are trying to get you to stop making stuff up on the basis of rumours.
Some of what on here the past two weeks is true and some is not.....

But sure keep adding to the fire if you like, I'll join in!

Anyone hear Ollie sold the bulbs in the floodlights to pay for a football for the game on Saturday ?

Higgins, with all due respect, you cannot expect people to only talk about things that have been confirmed officially by Shels or Ollie. No one has actually officially confirmed the wages thing nor has it been reported in the press (to the best of my knowledge) and we know that at least some degree of it is true. Shelbourne fans on here seem only to be in the mood of denial and ambiguous statements. If your club and fans aren't going to be forthcoming with information then why should people not be allowed to bring information to the board. It's your fault you don't seem to be countering any of it or not coming forward with info.

[higgins]

Higgins, with all due respect, you cannot expect people to only talk about things that have been confirmed officially by Shels or Ollie. No one has actually officially confirmed the wages thing nor has it been reported in the press (to the best of my knowledge) and we know that at least some degree of it is true. Shelbourne fans on here seem only to be in the mood of denial and ambiguous statements. If your club and fans aren't going to be forthcoming with information then why should people not be allowed to bring information to the board. It's your fault you don't seem to be countering any of it or not coming forward with info.

I dont fully know whats going on either, nobody but Ollie knows whats fully going on with Shels. what i have tried to do is point out where you lot have been wrong.

As soon as one rumour is finished another starts, its endless :)

Do you want me to agree with you that two players have walked out ???
I can if you want but Ive no knowledge to base it on so it would be foolish. I could say I heard from a guy who is close mates to a an ex EL player and as we all know the EL is a small place! Would that be enough for me to get on your side.

As for coming out with information myself ! I dont work for Shels and as I said I dont know the exact story so couldnt and wouldnt post it here even if I did.

[Roverstillidie]

I also told you that some of what is posted is lies....

for example? the rumour mill in relation to shels over the past few weeks has been remarkably accurate.

as NY says, you are doing a good rainman here. :rolleyes:

[DmanDmythDledge]

Higgins what do you think of Shels moving into a 800 seater stadium? Do you think they should be aiming higher and move to a stadium with more seating capacity?

[Poor Student]

I dont fully know whats going on either, nobody but Ollie knows whats fully going on with Shels. what i have tried to do is point out where you lot have been wrong.

If you know as little as you say you do though then it doesn't explain why you're quick to deny a lot of things. If you're similarly in the lurch then you can't confirm or deny rumours with any certainty.


As soon as one rumour is finished another starts, its endless :)

You could put it down to a dislike of Shels or it could just be that there's that many weird things going on at your club.


Do you want me to agree with you that two players have walked out ???

I don't claim they have, I don't know.


I can if you want but Ive no knowledge to base it on so it would be foolish. I could say I heard from a guy who is close mates to a an ex EL player and as we all know the EL is a small place! Would that be enough for me to get on your side.

It's fair enough if you know something, I know very little myself, but you can't quash these rumours either if you know nothing, can you?


As for coming out with information myself ! I dont work for Shels and as I said I dont know the exact story so couldnt and wouldnt post it here even if I did.

Well there's the thing. It's fair enough and it's your prerogative and we all know you wouldn't tell us if you knew, so you're absence of info doesn't tell us how much you really know but as I say, for a man who knows nothing you're quick to deny and in your own words point out "lies".

[higgins]

Higgins what do you think of Shels moving into a 800 seater stadium? Do you think they should be aiming higher and move to a stadium with more seating capacity?

Well I think location wise it couldnt be much better but of course I would love to have more space around and own the stadium ourselves.

Its been clear enough these past few months that the money we get from the sale of Tolka wont fund a new ground even without the bridging loans rumours. It seems we need a helping hand same way as Rovers have out in Tallaght. Land prices are far too expensive now and without a donation of council land we would be in a position to build a stadium with the profits from Tolka.

The FAI want groundsharing and I wouldnt like to be stuck in Dalymount the home of Bohs, same as being stuck out in Richmond the home of Pats. I wouldnt like to go to Tallaght either!

When I hear Santry I would be very happy to move there. Even with its 800 seats at present. The land is big enough to hold a decent sized stadium without a running track.

Depending on the deal worked out from the sale of Tolka we could go there with cash in the pocket and a sharing scheme would allow us gain further funding from the FAI (if they stay true to their word).

Id take a move to Santry in the morning!!!

[Roverstillidie]

When I hear Santry I would be very happy to move there. Even with its 800 seats at present. The land is big enough to hold a decent sized stadium without a running track.!

there you go again rainman.

you reckon the running track goes do you? that clonliffe harriers are going to get the heave ho to suit you?

think before you post you jackass

[DmanDmythDledge]

But do you see it as lack of ambition moving into a stadium that only holds 800 seats?