Shels players not getting their wages?

[Student Mullet]

Hang on Colin (apologies to everyone else for the brief aside from Shels's' implosion..). Did you read Student Mullett's message at all ?? :confused: He basically agreed with me !

He says that EXPENDITURE is the key figure in football. I said that TURNOVER WAS NOT THE KEY FIGURE, and others were more important - such as profit, income and expenditure. Therefore, we're broadly in-agreement.

Turnover is largely irrelevant here, and it will NOT be the key figure the FAI will be looking at in clubs.

Now write out 100 times..... ;)I don't know why my approval is so sought after but, for the record, I agreed with ColinR.

[BohsFans]

Listen son,jealousy is a terrible thing!

:D :D That takes the biscuit, it really does. :rolleyes:

[Terry]

whatever happens to Shels will be fully deserved (if anything happens at all) but would some supporters rather see shels gone and some small club come in with an average gate that will probably struggle to get 100 past the gates?? like kildare, kilkenny etc (no offence to the named clubs)

[Patrick Dunne]

Terry is right. I know its hard for supporters of other Dublin clubs to take a
dispassionate (?) view, but the demise of Shelbourne, or any of the other of 20 proper clubs in the EL, would be a bad day for Irish football.

[BohDiddley]

Shelbourne.
Cynical football. Cynical signings. Bohs haters. Bohs squad wreckers. Whinging management. Rootless imposters. Deluded fans. No fans. FAI/Delaney poodles. Money-driven. Money-ruined.
I won't be shedding any tears if their ill-gotten players walk. But do I want there to be no Shelbourne? I don't think so, and I don't see how any football fan can wish that.
Shelbourne's troubles, and those of all other national league clubs, are a symptom of the systematic shafting of Irish football by the political, sporting and media establishment of this country over the past several decades. Excuse me if I don't join the celebratory barbecue.

[Jerry The Saint]

Listen son,jealousy is a terrible thing!

It's not jealousy! We'd hate you even if you had no trophies, no ground and no cash to pay wages. Oh hang on a minute...

[Raheny Red]

What he said.

Shelbourne are scum, their players are scum, they are run by a ex-con cheating thug, their fans are deluded twits, I hate them.

How many fans turned up at the game after their "glorious" 0-0 draw with Deportivo?

If Shelbourne went up in flames tonight I'd go to Drumcondra, cut off the water supply, and have a barbecue.

Yes we are scum :rolleyes: don't think you can say much with your element. Tut tut gypo :rolleyes: :ball:

[TheOwl]

Shelbourne.
Cynical football. Cynical signings. Bohs haters. Bohs squad wreckers. Whinging management. Rootless imposters. Deluded fans. No fans. FAI/Delaney poodles. Money-driven. Money-ruined.
I won't be shedding any tears if their ill-gotten players walk. But do I want there to be no Shelbourne? I don't think so, and I don't see how any football fan can wish that.
Shelbourne's troubles, and those of all other national league clubs, are a symptom of the systematic shafting of Irish football by the political, sporting and media establishment of this country over the past several decades. Excuse me if I don't join the celebratory barbecue.

This type of hatred I can live with. I could go on a similar rant on why i hate Bohs and Rovers, but I don't want either club to disappear.

[Dodge]

This type of hatred I can live with. I could go on a similar rant on why i hate Bohs and Rovers, but I don't want either club to disappear.
And thats fine. I hate Shels and I hope it disappears. We disagree. No biggie...

[bigmac]

I'm no Shels fan but:

Because "rules are rules" when it suits them

I can't blame them for using every trick in the rule book to get out of this that and the other - the fact is that the EL/FAI rule book is completely incompetent and idiotic - if it was administered and applied properly then there wouldn't be a loophole to get out of everything. In my book, the fact that they can get away with challenges to rules and sanctions is the league's fault - it happens in every sport and although it's not fair/sporting etc.., whether it's bans in GAA or citing in rugby, most teams will exploit a loophole that is present


Because they've mortgaged their whole future on short term success

Wouldn't make them any different to a lot of clubs really - look at Rovers before the fans took over - why is this a reason for Shels and not Rovers. I would much rather see a team who did this completely fail and end up relegated and reorganised rather than disolved.


Because Ollie Byrne is a criminal

This always really annoys me when people come out with it. Yeah he commited a crime and he did his sentence. Crime-punishment - that's it - he's paid the price for it and he should be allowed to move on, isn't that the whole point of prison? Do you think people who have been to prison should be banned from ever doing anything else? I'm sure there are other clubs out there who have shareholders with some form of a record, but it doesn't seem to be a problem there?



Because he's a f.ucking c.unt too

If Ollie wasn't there would you then change your mind about Shels?


Because when winning the league they brought less than 1,000 fans to a game in Dublin
If they brought 10,000 you'd be complaining about bandwagoners.


Because of repeated legal challenges
Because of having too much influence within the FAI/el

see first one


As far as I'm concerned it's never a cause for celebration when a club gets into difficulty. A bit of schandenfreude perhaps - we're only human, but football in this country could do without this being the number one story of the year - when things have finally started to look a bit more positive with better football on average, the setanta cup, games on tv, players in international squad etc., the last thing we need is another season where a club folding or being in big trouble occupies the media's attention.

[Philo]

Yes we are scum :rolleyes: don't think you can say much with your element. Tut tut gypo :rolleyes: :ball:

You're not scum at all, you're complete nobodies. In fan terms you might as well not exist.

As for the element attached to Bohs, there are now 30 banning orders in place at Dalymount. These bans are enforced for match days and non-match days alike. The problem lies with the official bodies and clubs that refuse to take the issue as seriously. Your uninformed waffle has gone beyound tedious at this stage. The only thing Shels bring to the league is a handful of morons on message boards. Like many others, I look forward to a time when your disease of a club no longer exists.

[Dodge]

I hate doing this but....


I can't blame them for using every trick in the rule book to get out of this that and the other - the fact is that the EL/FAI rule book is completely incompetent and idiotic - if it was administered and applied properly then there wouldn't be a loophole to get out of everything. In my book, the fact that they can get away with challenges to rules and sanctions is the league's fault - it happens in every sport and although it's not fair/sporting etc.., whether it's bans in GAA or citing in rugby, most teams will exploit a loophole that is present
Its the pontificating about it thats the problem. To do condemn one club "for the integrity of the rules" and then continually claim for leniancy "in the interests of football" is totally taking the ****.



Wouldn't make them any different to a lot of clubs really - look at Rovers before the fans took over - why is this a reason for Shels and not Rovers. I would much rather see a team who did this completely fail and end up relegated and reorganised rather than disolved.
And I'd rather see Shels go. We disagree


This always really annoys me when people come out with it. Yeah he commited a crime and he did his sentence. Crime-punishment - that's it - he's paid the price for it and he should be allowed to move on, isn't that the whole point of prison? Do you think people who have been to prison should be banned from ever doing anything else? I'm sure there are other clubs out there who have shareholders with some form of a record, but it doesn't seem to be a problem there?
FFS if you can't tell it was a flippant remark thrown in with others, there's no point in answering any of these


If Ollie wasn't there would you then change your mind about Shels?
They'd certainly be less detestable


If they brought 10,000 you'd be complaining about bandwagoners.
No I wouldn't. Do you think its good enough that the league champions bring less than 1,000 fans to a game in their city where they clinch the trophy


As far as I'm concerned it's never a cause for celebration when a club gets into difficulty. A bit of schandenfreude perhaps - we're only human, but football in this country could do without this being the number one story of the year - when things have finally started to look a bit more positive with better football on average, the setanta cup, games on tv, players in international squad etc., the last thing we need is another season where a club folding or being in big trouble occupies the media's attention.I agree totally but if the club has put itself into this p[osition they have NO ONE to blame but themselves. Sweeping it under the carpet and pretending its not a serious issue helps nobody. The vast majority of Irish clubs are overspending and if Shels, as the frontrunner here, get into massive massive trouble and fold, maybe in the long run their lesson will be better for Irish football than simply not having bad publicity about it.

[LeixlipRed]

All your hatred is wasted my friends. We needer care about nor listen to your meanderings. We might be a "disease" of a club but atleast none of our fans seem to have the dangerous psychological problems which are associated with taking football so seriously you actually think one of your rival clubs is a "disease". You sad, sad people

[bigmac]

And I'd rather see Shels go. We disagree

Fair enough, no problem there



FFS if you can't tell it was a flippant remark thrown in with others, there's no point in answering any of these

Might have been a flippant remark but it's thrown out time and time again by people who don't like Shels. IMO it only contributes towards their us against the world mentality - must be the red jerseys, maybe they think their from Cork or something.


I think we're in agreement about most stuff, but I see the biggest problem as being a lack of structure and professionalism imposed by the league - turkeys and christmas I suppose, but in an organisation where anything goes, then clubs can be expected to do whatever they want and get away with it. The main problem as i see it is that Shels folding solves nothing for any other team - there will always be the people who think they can buy success as long as there are no real financial guidelines imposed on the clubs from above.

[Mr A]

Have to say I'm with Bigmac on this one. I don't really want to see any club go under- Harps have looked that possibility in the face in the past and I wouldn't wish the feeling on anyone.

I've no great time for Ollie Byrne but I find the constant references to his having a record very childish.

[A face]

must be the red jerseys, maybe they think their from Cork or something.

But ... but, but .... We DONT have red jerseys ???

Here, try this out (http://www.fisher-price.com/us/fun/games/colorshapes/default.asp) ... hopefully it will help you out in future situations.

[Poor Student]

All your hatred is wasted my friends. We needer care about nor listen to your meanderings. We might be a "disease" of a club but atleast none of our fans seem to have the dangerous psychological problems which are associated with taking football so seriously you actually think one of your rival clubs is a "disease". You sad, sad people

To be honest as someone who cares passionately about the game, if I were a Pat's fan I can imagine I'd have quite a disdain for your club. I can see where Dodge is coming from. My own club had to go to court to get what was due to us from your club.

[LeixlipRed]

Its ok to have a hatred of certain people who were involved in events were your club lost out, but to actually hate a club, its fans, everything about it, is pathetic. I dont particularly love Cork or Bohs but I certainly dont hate them or the fans. Anyway, hating inanimate objects is just a bit odd

[bigmac]

But ... but, but .... We DONT have red jerseys ???

Here, try this out (http://www.fisher-price.com/us/fun/games/colorshapes/default.asp) ... hopefully it will help you out in future situations.

sorry, red-green colourblind you see.

Anyway, who said I was talking about City? isn't red the colour de rigeur for most of "the rebels"?

[Poor Student]

Its ok to have a hatred of certain people who were involved in events were your club lost out, but to actually hate a club, its fans, everything about it, is pathetic.

The thing is, sometimes Shels fans are seen as complicit in the more reprehensible actions of your club. There seems to be an unquestioning loyalty among a lot of your fans towards the people who run the club in spite of the fact that they let yourselves and Irish football down and appear to be running your club into trouble. Your lack of criticism and questioning is stirring up an increasing apathy or dislike of your fans amongst others.


I dont particularly love Cork or Bohs but I certainly dont hate them or the fans. Anyway, hating inanimate objects is just a bit odd

I always considered clubs to be living breathing entities. There's a rather impassioned plea by a fellow Shels fan of yours saying as such about your club in another thread.

[Dodge]

Its ok to have a hatred of certain people who were involved in events were your club lost out, but to actually hate a club, its fans, everything about it, is pathetic.
I disagree entirely. Its pathetic if your hatred comes out in voilence or anything like that but how can having strong opinions on a football club and all it represents be pathetic? Also agree with poor student re; clubs being a living entity

[LeixlipRed]

there is something to be said for the idea clubs are living, breathing entities. So i'll just adjust my point to say that I believe hatred, in general, is pathetic. Its a waste of time. Dislike anything you want but hatred actually takes energy. pointless. More of a general argument about hatred than football so i'll leave it at that

[Roverstillidie]

bigmac, i agree but for one part.

all shels problems are 100% self inflicted.

[Dodge]

there is something to be said for the idea clubs are living, breathing entities. So i'll just adjust my point to say that I believe hatred, in general, is pathetic. Its a waste of time. Dislike anything you want but hatred actually takes energy. pointless. More of a general argument about hatred than football so i'll leave it at that
Looks like we have totally different attitudes to football so. I LOVE the tribal nature of it.

[anto eile]

A: I think they've been synonymous with a raising of the standard of the football within the league.

B: As for Ollie Byrne - he is not Shelbourne, he is a man behind Shelbourne; a club that was around long before he got involved and hopefully long after his involvement.

A: shels are single handedly responsible for driving the players wages in the EL up to ridiculous unjustifiable and unsustainable levels (leading to near bankruptcy of themselves and half the other teams in the league) through the aforementioned gambling of long-term security on short term success

B: ollie byrne owns something like 14,886 out of 15000 shares in shels. he IS shelbourne.

[anto eile]

Its ok to have a hatred of certain people who were involved in events were your club lost out, but to actually hate a club, its fans, everything about it, is pathetic. I dont particularly love Cork or Bohs but I certainly dont hate them or the fans. Anyway, hating inanimate objects is just a bit odd

we're not talking about cricket or tennis.this is football,and in football, you dont really need a good excuse to hate the team from down the road or the other side of the city.its football and you hate your rivals.thats the way its always been. nevertheless, shels provide ample reason to be hated anyway.

personally i find the most despicable aspect of your club is your gimpy goonish pathetic fans. that dispassionate opinion of yours quoted above is just one example

[el punter]

A: shels are single handedly responsible for driving the players wages in the EL up to ridiculous unjustifiable and unsustainable levels (leading to near bankruptcy of themselves and half the other teams in the league) through the aforementioned gambling of long-term security on short term success

B: ollie byrne owns something like 14,886 out of 15000 shares in shels. he IS shelbourne.

In fairness Anto Eile, neither of the points you directed towards mine above relate all that much to what I was saying.

A: I never mentioned money, just the standard of football. I don't defend Shelbourne's financial policies.

B: Shelbourne FC was around before Ollie, and like I said earlier, hopefully after him. I dont think anyone is any doubt about how much control he currently exerts on the club. I dont accept that Ollie Byrne IS Shelbourne FC. Any club is much more than one man.

[Billy Lord]

el punter: as we discovered at Shamrock Rovers, ownership is everything when it comes to a football club. That's why we bought ours - I wouldn't trust anyone but the fans with something as precious as our beloved SRFC.

[Anto McC]

B: ollie byrne owns something like 14,886 out of 15000 shares in shels. he IS shelbourne.

He owns roughly 98% of Shels and i wouldnt have it any other way :)

[LeixlipRed]

we're not talking about cricket or tennis.this is football,and in football, you dont really need a good excuse to hate the team from down the road or the other side of the city.its football and you hate your rivals.thats the way its always been. nevertheless, shels provide ample reason to be hated anyway.

personally i find the most despicable aspect of your club is your gimpy goonish pathetic fans. that dispassionate opinion of yours quoted above is just one example

Im a gimp and a goon because you believe im dispassionate? ffs, thats some logic. I said I dont believe in hatred. That doesnt mean I dont display passion. Hatred is a waste of time. When I think of hatred I conjure up images or religious warfare and the like. Now, I dunno about you but my mind isnt tuned into that sort of extreme feeling. I dont like you a lot after that stupid comment about ggons and gimps but I'm damn well dont hate you. Its probably semantics but I believe that when you turn extreme dislike into hate you cross a line thats hard to come back over. Just my opinion mind you. and I display extreme passion when it comes to football. I love my club. So I'm neither a gimp, goon or a dispassionate version of either of them

[A face]

Its probably semantics but I believe that when you turn extreme dislike into hate you cross a line thats hard to come back over.

And thats all it is to be fair, its colloquial man, i woldnt focus on the words ... its the actual point that is important. Its tribalism or whatever way you want to describe it but its all good once it doesn't move from that.

[LeixlipRed]

I get what you mean ie people are saying they hate shels fans, etc but they actually dont hate them in the strictest sense of the word. Thats probably true as well. Moving beyond tribalism onto violence or anything like that is totally unacceptable of course

[anto eile]

He owns roughly 98% of Shels and i wouldnt have it any other way :)
so you wouldnt like shels to be a members club owned by the fans (ie you) where you elect the board, where you get a say in how your club is run? that doesnt appeal to you??

[Anto McC]

so you wouldnt like shels to be a members club owned by the fans (ie you) where you elect the board, where you get a say in how your club is run? that doesnt appeal to you??

Why should I get a say?
I have no experience in running a football club,Shelbourne FC owes me nothing!

If it were the case,i would elect Ollie every time!

[Roverstillidie]

enough said anto mc.

that attitude sums up why we think you derserve everything you get

[el punter]

Has Anto and Ollie ever been seen in the same room, at the same time? Just to confirm like :)

[Anto McC]

Has Anto and Ollie ever been seen in the same room, at the same time? Just to confirm like :)

:D There has been many things said of me on this forum but thats the best ever :)

RTID,we will get what we deserve,as all teams do and there is no team more deserving of their place in the first division than Rovers!

[Roverstillidie]

:D There has been many things said of me on this forum but thats the best ever :)

RTID,we will get what we deserve,as all teams do and there is no team more deserving of their place in the first division than Rovers!

and the ironic thing is if we got control any earlier we might have been ok.

the reality is anto, mcliar and ollie are the same animal with one difference, olly is a genuine shels man with a love for the club. but they are both spendthrif spoofers who are hoping for that pay day.

if you hear the investor is coming in 3/4 weeks, ill pay you in at the kildare game on wednesday and introduce you round as our new biggest fan :D

[Dr.Nightdub]

Shelbourne FC owes me nothing!

You just don't get the whole football thing do you? Clubs owe fans EVERYTHING. No fans = no gate receipts, no sponsorship, no perimeter advertising, no programme sales, no half time draws, no merchandising sales, no income, no club. Ollie could go down on Abramovich in the morning to bail youse out of this, but without fans, he'd be running a shell, not Shelbourne.

[Anto McC]

You just don't get the whole football thing do you? Clubs owe fans EVERYTHING. No fans = no gate receipts, no sponsorship, no perimeter advertising, no programme sales, no half time draws, no merchandising sales, no income, no club. Ollie could go down on Abramovich in the morning to bail youse out of this, but without fans, he'd be running a shell, not Shelbourne.

I do get the whole football thing,i just dont take the same veiw as everyone else!!

If i go to a nightclub week in,week out,pay whatever fee they are charging me every time i go,am i then due a say in how the nightclub is run,or a vote on who the manager of the night club is?

RTID,are you saying that i am not a geniune shels fan?

[aido1895]

and the ironic thing is if we got control any earlier we might have been ok.
.....
So why didnt you go for control earlier ? !

[Roverstillidie]

RTID,are you saying that i am not a geniune shels fan?

No, im saying you arent a genuine football fan.

imagine comparing your football team to a nightclub? :(

time to dig up the football culture thread again

[anto eile]

So why didnt you go for control earlier ? !
it took the 400 club over 2 years of hard work , and a lot of time and money, (a lot spent convincing fellow fans who werent as clued in) that the club was being run into the ground.
not to mention court and examinership. it all kept a delay on eventually taking over the club.
anto mcc you sound like a clueless gombeen.i dont know whether your head is in the sand or if its up ollies arse.
hope you's get shafted like us in '87. at least youl have deserved it

[anto eile]

nb your nightclub analogy is pathetic

[aido1895]

it took the 400 club over 2 years of hard work , and a lot of time and money, (a lot spent convincing fellow fans who werent as clued in) that the club was being run into the ground.
not to mention court and examinership. it all kept a delay on eventually taking over the club.
......
I see what you are saying , but why did it take Rovers almost going out of business to galvanise you(thee fans) into doing something about the situation ?
It was obvious for many years before the 400club were formed that your club was heading towards the **** heap. To the outsider It might appear that Rovers fans werent bothered doing anything until they realised that their club would soon be no more.
anto eile you quite obviously havent a clue what the Shels fans are doing and are trying to do in order to have more of a say in the running of the club so your preaching here on the subject smacks of patting yourself on the back over the 400club. Just because things arent talked about on the net or because fans dont run to the herald ala the 400 club for a bit of publicity doent mean nothing is happening.

[dcfcsteve]

I don't know why my approval is so sought after but, for the record, I agreed with ColinR.

I don't knoiw either, but Colin's got you down as his professional witness...... :D

Ayways- make up your mind. One miniute you're saying that Expenditure is the key figure with regards the accounts of a football team. The next minute you're saying it's turnover. Which one are you going to settle on Stu ?

[Student Mullet]

It's a couple of years since I've sat in an economics lecture but my understanding of turnover is that it's the amount of money passing through a business. In the case of a business which is loss making or just breaking even (which probably includes all league clubs), turnover and expenditure are the same figure.

[Anto McC]

nb your nightclub analogy is pathetic

Elaborate please?
We can all make remarks and then not back them up!

I happened to use a nightclub because the person i was specificly refering to was called Dr Nightclub or something along those lines!!

Anto Eile,almost everytime you post,you insult someone,i dont know if its jealousy because the club you support is sh*t,be it in the control of the 400 club or anyone but whatever it is,it doesnt add to any of the points you make!

[Dr.Nightdub]

It's a couple of years since I've sat in an economics lecture...In the case of a business which is loss making or just breaking even (which probably includes all league clubs), turnover and expenditure are the same figure.

That lecture mustn't have held your attention much either - if the business is loss-making, it's because the expenditure figure is HIGHER than the turnover figure.

Turnover probably isn't the most appropriate figure to use here anyway. It's fine for a company whose main (or only) source of money is from selling goods or services. That's not the case for football clubs, where income from sources like sponsorship, etc can outweigh what they get from selling tickets, merchandise, etc.

When it comes to setting the salary cap, the best thing to peg to would be its income, from all sources.

Anto McC, your nightclub analogy is trite (apart from also being a tad illiterate, but that's a mistake many people make so I'll let you off on it). A football club isn't simply another option among many for how to spend your leisure euro. If Club Whatever shut down, you'd just go bopping somewhere else. But unlike a nightclub, a cinema or a video shop, there's an emotional bond between a fan and their football club.

Unless, of course, that too is different at Shels.

[dcfcsteve]

It's a couple of years since I've sat in an economics lecture but my understanding of turnover is that it's the amount of money passing through a business. In the case of a business which is loss making or just breaking even (which probably includes all league clubs), turnover and expenditure are the same figure.

I'd question your attendance at any economics lectures if you think turnover and expenditure are the same thing - regardless of a businesses' financial performance. :o

It's 12 years since I sat in an economics lecture myself, and 13 for an Accountancy one, but I still wouldn't be able to use chronology to explain away such a basic misunderstanding.

Turnover would be a ridiculous figure to base any salary cap on, because it would be frankly an irrelevant one. An Irish football club could turnover €10m a year - but a large chunk of that might be money it is effectively collecting for other people (e.g. merchandise manufacturers, tax man, ground rent/gate-share etc etc). Why should they therefore be allowed to pay players more on the basis of money that isn't theirs ? Also - if such a club's non-salary costs were higher than their turnover e.g. €11m, that would show the absurdity in using that figure.

I agree with Nightdub that Income/revenue is a better figure - though that would also fail to fully address the need to take a club's key costs into account. 'Trading profit' would probably be the ideal figure to use to get round this problem - though football being the business it is, it would mean that a lot of teams would have a zero or negative salary cap ! :o