Football question?

[the 12 th man]

EDIT: In a penalty shoot-out:

Any Refs or anybody have a view on this?:
Penalty kick strikes the cross bar and goes downwards and hits the goalkeepers back(standing on/beside his line) & goes into the goal.Is the goal allowed?

[Roo69]

Im not a ref but i would say yes, the goal should stand.

[Hitman]

I'm not certain, but I think if it's a penalty shoot-out the kick is deemed complete when the ball stops travelling forward. In that case if it came back and rebounded off the keeper it shouldn't stand. I think.

[drinkfeckarse]

The only way that wouldn't stand would be in a shoot out, no reason for it not to stand during the actual game but I assume you meant a shoot out.

[Roo69]

Has there not been a few cases when a peno has been taken, hit the post came off the back of the keepers head and went in the net. The goal stood. For some reason i think this happened to France in the Mexico 56 world cup ?

[Real ale Madrid]

Has there not been a few cases when a peno has been taken, hit the post came off the back of the keepers head and went in the net. The goal stood. For some reason i think this happened to France in the Mexico 56 world cup ?

I presume you mean Mexico 86. Yep France were awarded a goal in a penalty shoot out against Brazil incorrectly when the ball struck the post and came back out hit the keeper on the back and went in. It happened so fast the ref didnt see it. The rules say as pointed out earlier that the kick is over when the ball ceases to go forward. An ordinary penalty is different obviously.

[the 12 th man]

The only way that wouldn't stand would be in a shoot out, no reason for it not to stand during the actual game but I assume you meant a shoot out.

It was in a shoot out.

[anto1208]

What happens so if the ball hits the cross bar bounces before the line ( stopped going foward ) but because of the spin it rolls over the goal line again with out hitting the keeper ?

[Schumi]

What happens so if the ball hits the cross bar bounces before the line ( stopped going foward ) but because of the spin it rolls over the goal line again with out hitting the keeper ?
My understanding is that it shouldn't count in a shootout but I couldn't be certain.

[Dodge]

PM Reitoir here..

[John83]

My understanding is that it shouldn't count in a shootout but I couldn't be certain.
AFAIK, that's correct. In a shootout, once the ball stops going forwards, it's dead. It's been awarded plenty of times though.

Personally, I think the rule's being intperpreted too strictly there. It's just meant to stop anyone scoring from a rebound, and it seems perfectly reasonable to let that sort of penalty stand.

[pineapple stu]

What happens so if the ball hits the cross bar bounces before the line ( stopped going foward ) but because of the spin it rolls over the goal line again with out hitting the keeper ?
I don't know if that's actually physically possible though? You'd be lifting the ball and putting heavy top spin on it? Maybe an engineer or someone can clarify.

[John83]

I don't know if that's actually physically possible though? You'd be lifting the ball and putting heavy top spin on it? Maybe an engineer or someone can clarify.
Sounds tricky. I could see it happening with a volley, but probably not from a dead ball.

[Bald Student]

I don't know if that's actually physically possible though? You'd be lifting the ball and putting heavy top spin on it? Maybe an engineer or someone can clarify.Divet.

[the 12 th man]

Divet.

Goalkeeper gets a touch before it hit the bar..........

[pineapple stu]

But how does the top spin come into it? You have to hit over the top to get top spin and from the bottom to lift it onto the bar. Plus, the keeper's glove would take any spin off the ball. Similarly, possibly, with the divot.

[John83]

But how does the top spin come into it? You have to hit over the top to get top spin and from the bottom to lift it onto the bar. Plus, the keeper's glove would take any spin off the ball. Similarly, possibly, with the divot.
No, Mullet is right. If there's a divot, you don't need any top spin.

[pineapple stu]

Ah yes - hadn't thought of the divot there... :o

[Stuttgart88]

EDIT: In a penalty shoot-out:

Any Refs or anybody have a view on this?:
Penalty kick strikes the cross bar and goes downwards and hits the goalkeepers back(standing on/beside his line) & goes into the goal.Is the goal allowed?
This actually happened in Mexico '86, France vs Brazil I think, in the last 16 or last 8.*

The ball hit the bar or post (can't remember) and came out bit hit the 'keeper and went back in. The keeper was a few feet off his line at the point of contact. The goal stood. I'm not sure what you mean by "beside his line".

However, following frantic efforts from the TV analysts to see exactly what the rule was, it transpired that the goal shouldn't have been allowed. Once the ball had hit the woodwork and travelled outwards the penalty should have been deemed to have been missed. In effect the penalty was scored from a rebound.

There was a certain "moral justice" in the outcome though, because the same goalkeeper had committed a totally blatant professional foul in normal time. What would have been a certain red card these days only attracted a yellow. It was only a free kick and France missed so Brazil completely got away with it. Not sure about the teams, but recall the scenario well!

Has Reitoir seen the question?

* The exact question was what happens if the keeper was actually ON his line. This is different I suppose.

[pineapple stu]

Bruno Bellone was the player in question. Can't remember the keeper. The goal was allowed but shouldn't've stood.

[the 12 th man]

* The exact question was what happens if the keeper was actually ON his line. This is different I suppose.

The reason I said on/near the line is that I think the Goalkeeper is (strictly speaking) supposed to be on his line while/when the kick is being taken but in reality that seldom happens as the keeper sometimes move out a bit as the ball is struck.

[Stuttgart88]

In relation to the issue of "spin" I think the ball will always come out even if it had crossed the line earlier. In my opinion, a ref should be able to make a good guess as to whether a goal had been scored by looking at how far the ball had come back out. If it only comes back a foot or two from a hard shot it was probably a goal, if further it had probably hit the line or not even.

[Stuttgart88]

The reason I said on/near the line is that I think the Goalkeeper is (strictly speaking) supposed to be on his line while/when the kick is being taken but in reality that seldom happens as the keeper sometimes move out a bit as the ball is struck.Yes, it'd be highly unusual for a keeper to dive directly across his line, so it'd be highly unusual for the exact scenario to happen. Technically, if the ball came vertically down and went in off the keeper, you could argue that the penalty hadn't yet been missed and a goal should stand.

But what I described did happen in Mexico and the wrong refereeing decision was made. Good call by those above that got it right!

[Stuttgart88]

sorry, in my hurry to answer the question, I didn't notice that the France vs Brazil game in Mexico was already mentioned :o

[John83]

* The exact question was what happens if the keeper was actually ON his line. This is different I suppose. That's a good point. It could only strike the keeper's back while going backwards if he'd left his line!

Not that that rule is enforced at all. I remember Dida taking the **** in a recent Champions League final shootout.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Incidentally the France-Brazil game was a quarter final.

[Bald Student]

Ah yes - hadn't thought of the divot there... :o
Where did you think the divot would be?

[pineapple stu]

What a rubbish drawing! Stick to John Delaney pictures.

I'd envisaged the ball hitting the divot first, as it usually does. That's place it along the line from penalty spot to goal, but before hitting the bar. Something like straight kick, ball hits tuft at edge of divot, spins up, off the bar and over the line... :o

[Student Mullet]

What a rubbish drawing!I tought he captured your pineapple head quite well.

[lofty9]

The GK for Brazil in 1986 was Carlos.

[pineapple stu]

I tought he captured your pineapple head quite well.
Would you not just have copied and pasted a picture of Jason Lee?

[Pat O' Banton]

EDIT: In a penalty shoot-out:

Any Refs or anybody have a view on this?:
Penalty kick strikes the cross bar and goes downwards and hits the goalkeepers back(standing on/beside his line) & goes into the goal.Is the goal allowed?

A controversal descision in a game you were managing?

Just to muddy the waters then; what would happen if the ball struck both posts and went in?

[John83]

Just to muddy the waters then; what would happen if the ball struck both posts and went in?
Still depends on the question: did it stop going forwards at any point? It probably wouldn't be clear in that case, and would be given.

[Plastic Paddy]

Where did you think the divot would be?

Quality picture BS. I take it your studies are in fine art? :D

(I now have a perfect picture formed in my head of what PS looks like. Tall and geeky. :D It might be far from the truth, but that picture is now indelible...)

:ball: PP

[the 12 th man]

A controversal descision in a game you were managing?



Not controversial as such,my Team scored as described in the first post (off goalies back) and the Ref gave it,later on someone called me over and whispered "psst -You know that Goal should have been disallowed".:confused:

[John83]

Quality picture BS. I take it your studies are in fine art? :D

(I now have a perfect picture formed in my head of what PS looks like. Tall and geeky. :D It might be far from the truth, but that picture is now indelible...)

:ball: PP
Actually, think of a shorter, fatter Michael Jackson with a sallow complexion. Make slightly less freaky.

[pineapple stu]

If you watched the UCD-Derry game today, you'll have seen me several times...

[osarusan]

If we call in the idea of spin, then I guess you could say that it is possible that even if the ball has hit the crossbar and is rebouncing away from the goal, it is possible that the ball is still spinning forward which would allow it to bounce back over the line. So if it hits the keeper first, he may have just stopped the spin from effecting a change in direction. It is surely impossible for a referee to see what spin (if any) the ball has.
on a slightly different point, if this happens during a game (as opposed to a shootout), the goal will stand, but who will be given the goal credit?

I remember in the last European Champ. Rooney had a shot which hit the post, then hit the back of the Swiss keeper`s head on its way away from the goal, and rebounded over the line. I thought it should have been given as an O.G. but he (Rooney) got the goal.
Also, in a Liverpool - Newcastle game this season, Crouch had a header which Given saved onto the post, it then rebounded off the post onto his hand and went over the line. Was considered an own goal, harsh I thought, as without his intervention it would have been a goal anyway.

[the 12 th man]

If we call in the idea of spin, then I guess you could say that it is possible that even if the ball has hit the crossbar and is rebouncing away from the goal, it is possible that the ball is still spinning forward which would allow it to bounce back over the line. So if it hits the keeper first, he may have just stopped the spin from effecting a change in direction. It is surely impossible for a referee to see what spin (if any) the ball has.
on a slightly different point, if this happens during a game (as opposed to a shootout), the goal will stand, but who will be given the goal credit?

I remember in the last European Champ. Rooney had a shot which hit the post, then hit the back of the Swiss keeper`s head on its way away from the goal, and rebounded over the line. I thought it should have been given as an O.G. but he (Rooney) got the goal.
Also, in a Liverpool - Newcastle game this season, Crouch had a header which Given saved onto the post, it then rebounded off the post onto his hand and went over the line. Was considered an own goal, harsh I thought, as without his intervention it would have been a goal anyway.


Penalty shootout I watched Sat:Goalkeeper saves the ball by pushing it back out the way it came but pushed the bottom of the ball inadvertently putting backspin on it -you know what happened next and the goal stood,with the World Cup approaching this could very well occur again.