Lawro says Forget It!

[as_i_say]

agree with stuttgart-it WAS nothing short of scandalous the way we played in the last campaign (save for a decent away performance against the french where if we had any real balls we would have won). Kerr and players were to blame.

you'd have to worry for the next campaign. personally ill be happy if we give it a right go and play positive, attacking football. its the only chance we have of getting through. maybe we should play like the israelis did last season??!

[Stuttgart88]

One change I'd like to see staright away is the binning of this outdated "win at home, draw away" notion. If you look at the teams that qualify regularly they tend to win enough games to allow for the odd slip up. I think this is true even of the second tier teams that make it.

Not contradicting myself, but right now I'd happily buy a draw in Germany & Czech Republic. But I'd happily take our chances in Slovakia and Wales (where Toshack is shaping a very young side and with half-decent results recently). Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Maybe some more away friendlies will be of help.

[Real ale Madrid]

Is this the same Mark Lawrenson who said that you will never win the title with kids:eek:

Listen - lets be honest he's entitled to his opininon but he has been wrong before....

one point about our apparent disgraceful performances in qualifying. i hope that hindsight will show our last qualifying group to be one of the toughest ever. Dont be surprised to see France AND Switzerland in the quarter finals of the world cup and i expect Isreal to go close in thier qualifying group also next time around. We were guilty of poor performances against Isreal twice - France and Switzerland were both excellent sides and while we didnt play well in some of those games we were not far away from qualifying. The group we have next is not a good as the last one.

[Dodge]

Is this the same Mark Lawrenson who said that you will never win the title with kids:eek:
That was Hanson

[Real ale Madrid]

That was Hanson

Tom at toe / Tom aa toe

:o

[as_i_say]

The group we have next is not a good as the last one.

youre having a laugh surely! France are a quality side but switzerland, israel are poor-though we made them look good.

a group with germany, slovakia and czechs to get out of (not to mention wales who will be dodge) is easier than the group kerr had??

No way :eek:

[Stuttgart88]

We were guilty of poor performances against Isreal twice - France and Switzerland were both excellent sides and while we didnt play well in some of those games we were not far away from qualifying. The group we have next is not a good as the last one.

My point was largely directed at the Israel performances, and at players and management alike. But equally, although a draw against Switzerland may be seen as a respectable result if taken in isolation, the manner of the 0-0 draw in the context of a must win game was shocking. Having virtually no efforts at goal was inexcusable, though Harte did miss a sitter early on.

I also accept that Markus Merck (spelling?) ruined the flow of the game, that Robbie, Andy Reid and others were only barely match fit & Duff was injured, but despite all this where was our renowned spirit? The limp nature of our exit left a very sour taste.

[Real ale Madrid]

youre having a laugh surely! France are a quality side but switzerland, israel are poor-though we made them look good.

a group with germany, slovakia and czechs to get out of (not to mention wales who will be dodge) is easier than the group kerr had??

No way :eek:

Have to Disagree. Switzerland are an excellent young side who i remember rightly did very well at the European U-21 championships a few years ago. Isreal you forget to mention also got Draws in Switzerland and Fance so again a decent side. In my post earlier i said that hindsight will hopefully prove me right but it's only my own opininon.

As for the crop we are going to be playing. Germany - Ballack aside have zilch we should worry about.Decent side but hardly world class like France. They will also have new manager as they are going to die at the world cup. Czechs are a decent side who despite ageing are still a force. Slovakia are average - certainly not as good as Isreal IMO. While Wales - well if we dont beat Wales twice we may as well forget it anyway. Wales are absolutly rubbish. They didnt play well once during the last qualifying and got Murdered at home by Poland and Austria. Thier defence is just so weak

[Stuttgart88]

Slovenia are average - certainly not as good as Isreal IMO. Maybe so, but we're playing Slovakia who are a lot better:). Got to a play-off in last campaign.

[CraftyToePoke]

The limp nature of our exit left a very sour taste.

thats what got to me the most about it as well, soul destroying to see us just concede chance of qualifying so tamely.

so how concerned are you about the half-arsed display the other night v chile then stutt? was Stan not meant to be the antidote to the ill-spirit in the camp etc, and yet the men he selected let him down badly, i.m.o.. they treated the game as an end of season inconvienence, which it may be to them, (and possibly with some justification) but to the man who just took them off to portugal, it was important id imagine. id expected a bit more from them for Stans sake if nothing else, you know?

[as_i_say]

ok i agree wales are muck. slovakia (not slovenia btw) will be a very stern test. Israel punched way abvove their weight and got results cos of a very average swiss and at the time france side (who started to play when zidane and co came back)

also the notion of world cup hangovers i believe is tenuous, but we may indeed profit from people retiring from the likes of germay and cze.

[Real ale Madrid]

Maybe so, but we're playing Slovakia who are a lot better:). Got to a play-off in last campaign.

Meant slovakia sorry - think i'll go away and have a lie down actually. Between Hanson/Lawerenson and slovenia/slovakia i have a pain in my brain.

[Stuttgart88]

so how concerned are you about the half-arsed display the other night v chile then stutt?

I don't really know, to be honest. I'd say "concerned" - yes, but "despairing" - no. You?

On one hand, I'm absolutely certain that the result counts for nothing. I'm just about prepared to accept that it may genuinely be hard for the players to get fully fired up for such a game at this time of the year & maybe the week spent in Portugal was more important. We've traditionally been crap in May / June friendlies from what I can remember. Home defeats to Greece & Scotland spring to mind as does Nigeria in 2002 and the Unity Cup.

But I have grave doubts over one or two (but not many more) players and I'm concerned that Staunton saw fit to move Steven Reid away from the position he's excelled in for both Blackburn & Ireland recently.

I suppose I'll only be concerned if we fail to learn from some of the OBVIOUS lessons from last week. There's also O'Shea I suppose. Of all the players out there he was maybe the one with the most to prove. I'm disappointed we didn't have an opportunity to look at the likes of Paddy McCarthy, Joey O'Brien, Alan Quinn etc. and in away the lack of availability of certain fringe players made the whole exercise a bit redundant.

I really do think that if we have our strongest players available and when it counts we can improve on last year's performances. Psychologically it'd have been nice to go into the summer on a bit of a high. Reading Bobby Robson's assessment of the match last week made me feel better.

[NeilMcD]

I would not get too down about the chile game in the same way I would not get to up about the Sweden game. I remember thinking coming out of the Game in Holland that times are good for this team, but 18 months later and the team had come 4th in teh group. So friendlies are nice but nothing to get carried away with. Robsons comments after the game show that when it matters I think the experimenting will have shown more of what we cant do rather than what we can do. Stephen Reid in the centre for us is vital for us in my view and a back four containing Finnan is also vital.

[as_i_say]

bottom line-twas only a friendly. throughout ericssons tenure with england they have lost an absolute rake of friendlies-and ericsson learnt a lot in defeat, lets hope stan can do the same.

[geysir]

Unlike the last two campaigns, I don't have the expectation that we should qualify next time. There are too many variables and the last friendly brought up a few more.
I'd hope that the Chile match brought out few problems "early doors".
Nobody quite knows what happenned to cause the collapse in our last 2 qual games. Eliminating Kerr does not neccessarily eliminate the problems behind the collapse.
I still don't know what Lawrenson wrote, apart from whether he used one small word.
Whatever he gets paid for sitting in the commentary box beside Motson, it's not enough. Lawrenson was an absolute class player for Ireland and would fit in many people's all time Irish teams. We were fortunate to have had him available.

[eirebhoy]

youre having a laugh surely! France are a quality side but switzerland, israel are poor-though we made them look good.
No we didn't. If we made them look good maybe they'd be getting the credit they deserve. They were really poor against us in both games. I seen probably half of Israel's games in the qualifiers (thanks to Setanta) and their performances against Switzerland and France were a lot better than against us. That was mainly down to the fact that they thought of us as the best team in the group and sat back hoping to catch us on the break. The best thing to do in that situation is just don't give them possession and we managed that for just over 90 minutes.:(

I think if we'd have beaten Israel in one of those matches we'd be preparing for the world cup atm. They bottled it though in so many games. We were world class in friendlies with no pressure. :)

[Stuttgart88]

We were fortunate to have had him available.
Someone should send John O'shea a video of Lawrenson's performances under Jack.

Remind me: did Lawrenson retire from all football prior to Euro '88, or just international football?

[geysir]

Someone should send John O'shea a video of Lawrenson's performances under Jack.

Remind me: did Lawrenson retire from all football prior to Euro '88, or just international football?
Played even better pre Jack.
Yep he had to quit playing football altogether in the spring of '88. Therefore he never made it onto the pitch at Stuttgart '88.

[frankbrett]

He said not 5 minutes ago "They havent really got going yet , England , have They"


He definitely used the word 'we' in reference to England at least once last night.

[Stuttgart88]

Played even better pre Jack.But not as a converted midfielder?

[geysir]

You are fortunate you stuck in the question mark.
You should know there was nothing to convert about Lawrenson's talent.
At least he played midfield in the 2-1 wcq game '80 V Holland and scored the winner.

[eirebhoy]

He definitely used the word 'we' in reference to England at least once last night.
I only watched the first half but he definitely didn't in the first. I've yet to even get the feeling that Lawro supports England. Alan Hanson seems more pro-England than Lawro.

[Stuttgart88]

I've yet to even get the feeling that Lawro supports England. Alan Hanson seems more pro-England than Lawro.Agree. Like Andy Gray*, Hansen plays to his audience. If he was to diss the English football team as often as he'd probably like to, he wouldn't have a job.

There was a MOTD analysis on England's WC chances when the draw was made back in December and it was clear that both Lawrenson & Hansen were distancing themselves from England. Gary got a little precious over it, just like he did when both the others said that Robbie Keane was better than Defoe recently.

With Andy Gray, the guy's either a total mercenary, or one of those Rangers hardliners who supports England over Scotland because Scotland isn't "British enough" in a curious right-wing kind of way.

*And also Alan Greene (Norn Irish) on 5 Live and Patrick Barclay (Scottish) in the Sunday Telegraph, though in fairness to Barclay in particular his support is purely for the team, he's very outspoken about the support. Andy Gray wouldn't say a bad word about the English support.

[Stuttgart88]

You are fortunate you stuck in the question mark.

At least he played midfield in the 2-1 wcq game '80 V Holland and scored the winner.
Nothing fortunate - I always cover myself!

Remember Lawro's goal, diving header at the far post, yes? Not dissimilar to Stapleton's goal in Belgium, the first equaliser, in '86.

[jbyrne]

He definitely used the word 'we' in reference to England at least once last night.

at what stage in game?:confused:

[NeilMcD]

Hansen used it last night and then corrected himself not sure Lawrenson did though. Andy Gray is just a mercenery who gets caught up in the emotion but I am sure his background means he has no hatred of England that an ex Celtic player or a big Tartan Army might have. But I dont think Gray Supports England over Scotland.

[Jerry The Saint]

Anyone else think the title of this thread would make a great T-shirt? :)

[Dassa]

Lawro seems harsh in his comments about ROI. They were unlucky not to qualify last time and with abit of luck have chance in their nxt group. They are probably 3rd favourite for the group.

[geysir]

He definitely used the word 'we' in reference to England at least once last night.
Could it have been we we.
Sorry just a bit bored

[thejollyrodger]

one thing he hit the nail on the head was about ireland fire... we used to be all fired up .. now we couldnt give a rats ass... the last qualification campagin is just one such example

[Stuttgart88]

Have to Disagree. Switzerland are an excellent young side who i remember rightly did very well at the European U-21 championships a few years ago. Isreal you forget to mention also got Draws in Switzerland and Fance so again a decent side. In my post earlier i said that hindsight will hopefully prove me right but it's only my own opininon.

Yes, Switzerland won the U21s a few years back I think. I have to say that having seen Switzerland a few times in our campaign, for the most part I thought they looked ordinary. They only just beat Cyprus at home and only just beat Faroes away for example.

But I watched most of the first half of Switzerland vs Italy last night. I was flicking between that and France vs Denmark although the wife came back in at 9am and it was Big ****ing Brother from then on.

I thought the Swiss looked like a very cohesive, tall, athletic team that's very well balanced and is quite a tidy unit. I wouldn't go as far as saying they're "excellent" but they are very decent. I thought they were poor in Euro 2004, embarassingly for us, but I expect them to make the last 16 this time.

To digress, I think that France are beginning to look the part.

[NeilMcD]

Lads I still have not seen one quote from Lawrenson on this issue.

[wws]

Let it go man

Let it go

[NeilMcD]

Let what go. We have a 5 page thread on something we dont even know Mark Lawrenson has said or not. Before I comment on what he said, I would just like to know what he actually said.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't really know, to be honest. I'd say "concerned" - yes, but "despairing" - no,you?

id go along with 'concerned' as the result of that game will not live long in the memory, wheather we had won, drawn or lost it, but id definately say Staunton will have been disappointed with the efforts expended by some of his key men, again, it goes back to our squad size, there are a number of guys who genuinelly dont have to fear for their place in the 11, and v chile i believe this was apparent, and from Stans expression whenever the camera panned to him, any illusions he may have had that they would always give their all for him, will have disappeared.

id say he intended to play Dixon at some point, but was unable to due to the course the game had taken, this again stems directly from the efforts of the starting 11.

so, although it wont be important long term, its certainly something he will have learned about his players, like you say, maybe the work done in portugal was the real important part.lets hope so.

Reid's re-emergence this season directly links to an extended run in the middle of the park at blackburn, to ignore this at a time when our options there are limited in the middle would be a big error, particularly when you take into account the performances of O'Shea and Miller.

[Stuttgart88]

Whether he actually said it or not isn't important to me anymore, it's whether the premise is true that's worth debating. Somewhere in among the 5 pages of "oh yes he did, oh no he didn't" this issue was actually addressed.

[NeilMcD]

Of course its not true, to say we are never going to qualify goes down with comments like everything that is going to be invented already has been invented which was uttered in the early part of the 20th century. Or Bill Gates saying that there is only going to be a need for about 2 computers in the world.

You can never say never. We have a chance over the next capaign of qualifying no more no less. We should have qualified for Germany with more passion and more get up and go and and more attacking mindset.

[as_i_say]

thats why the key to qualifying is to have ian harte on the team.

[Jerry The Saint]

Let what go. We have a 5 page thread on something we dont even know Mark Lawrenson has said or not. Before I comment on what he said, I would just like to know what he actually said.

Lawro Say RELAX.:)

[Paddy Garcia]

[QUOTE=NeilMcD] Or Bill Gates saying that there is only going to be a need for about 2 computers in the world.[QUOTE]

Don't think that quote was Bill Gates - more like the old Chief Exec of IBM!


......well as Stuttgart88 has suggested, it's not as if this thread has not already drifted from the germane topic: whether Lawro is correct as opposed to who he supports the most.

[Paddy Garcia]

I think he has a very fair point. However I feel it has more to do with the habit of winning (& I guess therefore talent though I was reluctant to admit this). There is no doubt that in past qualifying campaigners we have fielded more players used to winning than the present crop. Off the top of my head players (in past qualifying campaigns) very used to going out on a field & winning included:

Liverpool, perennial double & title winners: Lawrenson, Houghton, Aldridge, Staunton, Whelan, Beglin,

Man U - early players were contenders later perennial double & title winners: McGrath, Stapleton, Moran, Irwin, Keane

Aston Villa: Contenders & Cup Winners: McGrath, Townend, Houghton, Staunton.

Celtic: League & Cup Winners: Bonner, McCarthy & Morris

Everton: League & European Cup Winners: Sheedy

..even Kelly & Harte at Leeds for a while in this period. And we could add Brady & O'Leary to that list of winning clubs.

OK - some of the above are doubled up - but the point is the spine & sometimes much more of the Irish team were at top English/Scottish clubs, typically winning titles & cups galore.

On this thread I have read about the merits of trying players like Alan Quinn, Paddy McCarthy & others to see if they can do a job for us. Elsewhere we are suggesting that EL players are as good as what we have in England. If we use the "success criteria" above we simply don't match up today: This season - Duff (& only partial this season) & Finnan, with O'Shea there or thereabouts. And McGeady hopefully to step up. Worse a lot fighting relegation or seeking promotion. Some are already declaring Doyle as a saviour - & it's hardly fair to him (though hope it is true).

Frankly this is a million miles a way from the talent we had available in the past.

How many Irish players will be regulars in the top 3 English teams next year ? We will be lucky if there is 2 in total - in successful qualification campaigns in the past we could have had up to 3 in one team alone & quite a few others in the pack behind.

EG:
06/07
poss none at Chelsea
poss none at Man U - though maybe 1
probably 1 at Liverpool

...so not many in green these days with the winning habit. And for this reason in the short term I think Lawro may have a point.

[Irish_Praha]

I think he has a very fair point. However I feel it has more to do with the habit of winning (& I guess therefore talent though I was reluctant to admit this). There is no doubt that in past qualifying campaigners we have fielded more players used to winning than the present crop. Off the top of my head players (in past qualifying campaigns) very used to going out on a field & winning included:

Liverpool, perennial double & title winners: Lawrenson, Houghton, Aldridge, Staunton, Whelan, Beglin,

Man U - early players were contenders later perennial double & title winners: McGrath, Stapleton, Moran, Irwin, Keane

Aston Villa: Contenders & Cup Winners: McGrath, Townend, Houghton, Staunton.

Celtic: League & Cup Winners: Bonner, McCarthy & Morris

Everton: League & European Cup Winners: Sheedy

..even Kelly & Harte at Leeds for a while in this period. And we could add Brady & O'Leary to that list of winning clubs.

OK - some of the above are doubled up - but the point is the spine & sometimes much more of the Irish team were at top English/Scottish clubs, typically winning titles & cups galore.

On this thread I have read about the merits of trying players like Alan Quinn, Paddy McCarthy & others to see if they can do a job for us. Elsewhere we are suggesting that EL players are as good as what we have in England. If we use the "success criteria" above we simply don't match up today: This season - Duff (& only partial this season) & Finnan, with O'Shea there or thereabouts. And McGeady hopefully to step up. Worse a lot fighting relegation or seeking promotion. Some are already declaring Doyle as a saviour - & it's hardly fair to him (though hope it is true).

Frankly this is a million miles a way from the talent we had available in the past.

How many Irish players will be regulars in the top 3 English teams next year ? We will be lucky if there is 2 in total - in successful qualification campaigns in the past we could have had up to 3 in one team alone & quite a few others in the pack behind.

EG:
06/07
poss none at Chelsea
poss none at Man U - though maybe 1
probably 1 at Liverpool

...so not many in green these days with the winning habit. And for this reason in the short term I think Lawro may have a point.

I agree with the point that a winning attitude goes a long way to winning games, which is what you need to qualify. However, the vast majority of the players we had that qualified for the last WC were not part of winning teams either. I'm no big McCarthy fan but somehow he instilled a certain amount of pride into the team when playing for Ireland, which was lacking in the last two campaigns. I know he was in charge for the start of one of those but it all went a bit flat due to the fallout from Saipan Gate. All we can hope is that Staunton can somehow work the same magic. Time will tell.

BTW here is the WC 2002 squad and as afar as i can remember no major player used in the qualifiers is missing due to injury. I got it from http://www.travelnotes.org/Football/2002/Korea-Japan/Teams/E3.htm
and no I didnt change ManU for "sent home in disgrace" :D

Goalkeepers:

1 Shay Given (Newcastle United)
16 Dean Kiely (Charlton Athletic)
23 Alan Kelly (Blackburn Rovers)

Defence:

2 Steve Finnan (Fulham)
3 Ian Harte (Leeds United)
4 Kenny Cunningham (Wimbledon)
5 Steve Staunton (Aston Villa)
14 Gary Breen (Coventry City)
15 Richard Dunne (Manchester City)
18 Gary Kelly (Leeds United)
20 Andrew O'Brien (Newcastle United)

Midfield:

6 Roy Keane (Sent home in disgrace)
7 Jason McAteer (Sunderland)
8 Matt Holland (Ipswich Town)
11 Kevin Kilbane (Sunderland)
12 Mark Kinsella (Charlton Athletic)
21 Stephen Reid (Millwall)
22 Lee Carsley (Everton)

Forwards:

9 Damien Duff (Blackburn Rovers)
10 Robbie Keane (Leeds United)
13 David Connolly (Wimbledon)
17 Niall Quinn (Sunderland)
19 Clinton Morrison (Crystal Palace)

[Qwerty]

Sure it's nice to have players from clubs wining titles but how many English players play for Chelski or Arsenal? The Premiership has changed a great deal in the past 10 years. Remember who was Leeds top scorer when they won the Premiership? Would Leeds win the title with a team like that today or would they have a better chance at relegation?

The standard of football has improved enormously. The bottom line is that our first 11 is usually an all-Premiership team and in the past this was not always the case, you could argue we have never had so much depth as now even if we don't have quite as many really top class players.

We have the players to compete, we just need a management team to do the business.

BTW - I see nothing wrong with Lawro using 'We' to refer to England, let's grow up lads.

[beautifulrock]

Whats Lawro using "we" got to do with growing up????

[brine3]

As for Lawro referring to England as "we", I never heard him do it myself, but even if he did, so what?

It is possible for somebody to feel an attachment to two countries at the same time. Especially if your family is from the one country and you grew up in another. It's easy enough for an Irish person in Ireland to criticise somebody for doing this, as they've never stood in Lawro's shoes. He's as Irish as smoked salmon and as English as Yorkshire pudding, that's just the way his background is. You can be both at the same time.

Lay off the man. He chose to play for Ireland in the pre-Charlton days when nobody was begging people to declare.

[Fergie's Son]

As for Lawro referring to England as "we", I never heard him do it myself, but even if he did, so what?

It is possible for somebody to feel an attachment to two countries at the same time. Especially if your family is from the one country and you grew up in another. It's easy enough for an Irish person in Ireland to criticise somebody for doing this, as they've never stood in Lawro's shoes. He's as Irish as smoked salmon and as English as Yorkshire pudding, that's just the way his background is. You can be both at the same time.

Lay off the man. He chose to play for Ireland in the pre-Charlton days when nobody was begging people to declare.

Great post. Thank you.

[Reality Bites]

Back to the topic of the thread, we are back down to earth as a footballing nation i.e pre-italia 90 days, its quiet clear that we have very little talent at the moment and will have to accept that it will be unlikely that we will qualify for the Euros in 2008, and as the world cup comes around lets face it Englands Squad outshines us everywhere except Goalkeeper..we would have always argued that we had three or four players superior in various positions now its just down to the goalkeeper!!!
Some might argue we had a golden generation in mid to late 80's culminating in euro 88 and Italia 90, lets face it WC2002 was down to Roy Keanes preformance in qualifers, end of Storey.. So as a football nation the good times may not come around in the near future so Lawro is not far of the mark in my opinion..

[shakermaker1982]

I think Finnan, Duff and Robbie Keane would walk into the England team right now no problem. Throw in Given and you have 4.

[Stuttgart88]

It kind of poses the question: what can be done to maximise the chances of another golden generation occurring?.

There are encouraging signs that at all levels under 20 we have very good players coming through, but whether these guys progress or not is largely out of the FAI's hands.

It's no good just sitting back and seeing whether they make it or not while spending most of our time watching Man United on telly and then once a year bemoaning the lack of real quality coming through.

In my opinion we've got to grab the bull by the horns and leave as little as possible to luck. You could debate this issue until the cows come home I suppose but it's pretty obvious to me that a thriving domestic league is at least one requisite, one that can actually offer our better footballers a good career as well as a competitive & technically proficient environment in front of crowds and stadia that actually make it something for young players to aspire to. By and large, I think the Genesis II and the recent related changes that have been announced will take the league this direction, but I know it's not without controversy.

Maybe I'm being totally naive but I think that there is sufficient interest from the public in attending ALL sports as long as the standard is sufficiently high.