Pyramid system

[citybone]

http://www.petitiononline.com/SFA/petition.html
i really think this would help the 1st division
imagine if the intermediate clubs could get promoted to the 1st division and bottom of the 1st division got relegated as long as the clubs get a licence and same with junior leagues-intermediate-senior so a small club club can go from junior to senior providing they pass the club licencing
what do yee think?

[Roo69]

The whole league needs to be revamped full stop, more clubs are needed from different part of the country that are not involved already, the problem is that a lot of these clubs do not want to.

[dcfcsteve]

http://www.petitiononline.com/SFA/petition.html
i really think this would help the 1st division
imagine if the intermediate clubs could get promoted to the 1st division and bottom of the 1st division got relegated as long as the clubs get a licence and same with junior leagues-intermediate-senior so a small club club can go from junior to senior providing they pass the club licencing
what do yee think?

Pyramid systems work best where joining the senior/professional 'pinnacle' of the pyramid is aspirational. Hence, the detailed pyramid system in England is quite strong.

I'm not entirely convinced that a continual flow of intermediate clubs in Ireland would want to join the EL First Division. No doubt there are one or two who would sieze such an opportunity if it arose, but the simple fact is that EL membership is not an aspiration that many clubs have. Understandably, given that it would involve a substantial increase in costs with little significant income or benefit in-return. For some club sit would probably cripple or kill them financially - for which price there is no realistic benefit. Until we bed the current EL down as a quality product and structure, there isn't much point looking to hook it up to a nationwide football club conveyor belt.

Likewise, looking at it from the other side of the coin - I'm not convinced that hoofing the bottom EL club each season back to the wilds of intermediate football would necessarily be a positive thing either. Would it have benefited the league if an eager Athlone Town, with all it's off-the-pitch activities - had been replaced at the end of last season with an untried and untested intermediate club ? Would Athlone have had the confidence and league security to embark on their ambitious new stadium in a pyramid structure, given they have been a bottom 2 club in 3 of the last 4 seasons ? Consider also Longford Town. They've finished rock-bottom of the EL 3 times in their short senior history - the last occassion as recently as 1998. If Longford had been sent back to non-league football on any of those 3 occassions, I doubt the club would be where it is now - either on or off the pitch.

So in summary - pyramids work within league structures that work. Our league doesn't, so it wouldn't.

[citybone]

there needs to be some sort of way of making it easier to promote intermediate clubs to senior if they want and junior to intermediate etc.

[dcfcsteve]

there needs to be some sort of way of making it easier to promote intermediate clubs to senior if they want and junior to intermediate etc.

Junior to intermediate I agree, as the downside isn't huge (bar travel costs)

Intermediate to EL I disagree. There just simply isn't an ongoing demand for anything regular to happen. By all means, the FAI should be continually encouraging ambitious clubs to make moves in the right direction, with a view to accepting them when they are suitable both on and off the pitch, but to have anything formal is simply unfeasible and unrealistic at the moment.

Clubs can still seek entry into the EL without there beign a pyramid structure shuffling clubs to the top of a waiting list whether or not they are willing or able. It would be a worse situation having the champions of various Intermediate leagues continually rejecting EL membership under a pyramid system.

[Bald Student]

Don't the new league proposals allow for a non league club to challenge the bottom placed first division club to a playoff? That seems to be the best of both worlds, it doesn't force any intermediate club into the league but would add some spice to the bottom of the first division.

[citybone]

that makes sense but why dont clubs want to make the step up?

[dcfcsteve]

that makes sense but why dont clubs want to make the step up?

It's not necessarily through lack of ambition - it's a simple risk-benefit analysis. Big downside with little upside in return.

The outgoings would be high. Any new club looking to come-up would have to spend a lot on its facilities. It would then have to spend further on it's team. And then it's travel costs would be higher than ever before, before you add-in other match-day costs like stewards/security, accommodation etc.

Meanwhile, the income from joining the league would be much smaller. Crowds in the first division are poor - particularly for unestablished teams - sponsors are hardly beating a path to anyone's door, and the chances of achieving anything other than mere survival for quite a few years would be slim. Therefore - you'd be unlikely to win anything, particularly promotion, for some time, which would limit both your income and crowds still further.

Most clubs would weigh up both of the above and come to the conclusion that it's just not something they could financially risk doing for their club. It could easily lead to the death of a club if not done properly.

[citybone]

It's not necessarily through lack of ambition - it's a simple risk-benefit analysis. Big downside with little upside in return.

The outgoings would be high. Any new club looking to come-up would have to spend a lot on its facilities. It would then have to spend further on it's team. And then it's travel costs would be higher than ever before, before you add-in other match-day costs like stewards/security, accommodation etc.

Meanwhile, the income from joining the league would be much smaller. Crowds in the first division are poor - particularly for unestablished teams - sponsors are hardly beating a path to anyone's door, and the chances of achieving anything other than mere survival for quite a few years would be slim. Therefore - you'd be unlikely to win anything, particularly promotion, for some time, which would limit both your income and crowds still further.

Most clubs would weigh up both of the above and come to the conclusion that it's just not something they could financially risk doing for their club. It could easily lead to the death of a club if not done properly.
why do kildare/mon utd/kilkenny stay in the league den?
why dont they just drop to intermediate? ulster senior league/leinster senior league it would save them expenses but lose gate receipts from rovers/limerick/galway
the eircom league could manage with as little as 20 clubs and have two 10 team leagues

[dcfcsteve]

why do kildare/mon utd/kilkenny stay in the league den?
why dont they just drop to intermediate? ulster senior league/leinster senior league it would save them expenses but lose gate receipts from rovers/limerick/galway
the eircom league could manage with as little as 20 clubs and have two 10 team leagues

I can't answer for clubs.

All I would guess is that once you're in senior football, as long as you can survive make ends meet somehow there's no incentive to not hang-in there. I'm sure those running the clubs concerned would like to stay on the senior stage. There's a huge difference between a weak senior club not wanting to fall back into intermediate football, and a strong intermediate club not wanting to risk going into the senior game. Once you got senior status you probably wouldn't weant to lose it too willingly.

Also - I guess there's always hope. 7 years ago you could have asked what was the point in Longford staying in the league den. Then they got promoted, won 3 trophies, played in Europe twice, and became a perennial Premier side. So whilst you're sitting at the table, theres' always hope....

[Magicme]

It is the hope of moving up and gaining promotion again some day that keeps you going....also it gives the children of the area something to aim for in footballing terms. eL is a good shop window and if you are playing with a Juvenile side who is part of an eL club u have more chance of getting noticed...at least out in the sticks thats the way it is. The likes of James Hand and Jonathan Douglas no doubt have their time at Mons to thank for taking their careers where they are today and even Dublin City's Paul Sheils has his 12 years at Monaghan to thank for him playing Premier football.

It would break my heart if we lost eL at Monaghan....as a county we have a good sporting tradition and soccer is growing in importance all the time....I think its only right that we have a chance to play against the best clubs in Ireland (albeit the lower tier at the moment!)

[Ronnie]

As DCFC Steve said about Longford Town. In 1998 we were the smallest club - bar none in the league. If we can do it, so can anyone else.

[Magicme]

Only difference between us and u Ronnie is that we have a smaller population base and a stronger GAA tradition.

But I do believe we can do it....our gates have increased this season.

[Ronnie]

Nope, population of Longford Town is only 7000. Pop of county is 30000. Support is coming from the rural areas more so than the town and by and large these people are gaelic first.

[Magicme]

I read elsewhere that ur towns population is approx 9k and Monaghan has only bout 6k so I suppose there aint that big a difference!

[monkey magic]

maybe im being ridiculous here, but while were debating it here, does anyone thing there's merit in the idea of having a third tier to el football? a second division where stadium and faclilities requirements do not exist and any cost barriers are reduced as much as possible- a type of conference style division.
the purpose would be two fold; firstly it would give a spring board to small aspiring junior/ intermediate clubs to get a foothold in league football, secondly it would give struggling el clubs a bit of breathing space to drop a division and get their houses in order before mounting a challenge again...

just a suggestion to throw out there..

[citybone]

maybe im being ridiculous here, but while were debating it here, does anyone thing there's merit in the idea of having a third tier to el football? a second division where stadium and faclilities requirements do not exist and any cost barriers are reduced as much as possible- a type of conference style division.
the purpose would be two fold; firstly it would give a spring board to small aspiring junior/ intermediate clubs to get a foothold in league football, secondly it would give struggling el clubs a bit of breathing space to drop a division and get their houses in order before mounting a challenge again...

just a suggestion to throw out there..
thats good but maybe a conference north/south system including connocht(sorry if i missspelt it) and dont use provences as borders just the highest geographical 12 clubs and lowest geographical 12 clubs that way still reducing costs and keeping a high standard which is what a pyramid system is maybe the top team in both north and south could apply for el playoff then if they wanted

[monkey magic]

thats good but maybe a conference north/south system including connocht(sorry if i missspelt it) and dont use provences as borders just the highest geographical 12 clubs and lowest geographical 12 clubs that way still reducing costs and keeping a high standard which is what a pyramid system is maybe the top team in both north and south could apply for el playoff then if they wanted
thats not too different to what we have at the moment, what im suggesting is bringing all those aspiring clubs under tha umbrella od the league, without necessarily having to meet the criteria, specific the capital intensive infrastructure requirements, until they get promoted to the first...

[dcfcsteve]

You can't go making radical changes to the league's structure every couple of years.

I agree. Domestic football in the Republic has faced constant flux since it began. Believe it or not, we have NEVER made it beyond 5 seasons at any time in the league's history without some sort of changes to our clubs - teams joining, teams dropping out, or existing teams changing names. I'll repeat that - not once since the foundation of the league 85yrs ago have we made it through a period of more than 5 seasons without some sort of change to our clubs in name or numbers.

With that in mind we're going through a period of relative stability for clubs in the league. The last change was in 2002 when Kildare County replaced St Francis. If we can make it into next season with no changes to any of our clubs (a strong likelihood) then it will be the most stable period ever for the membership of our league. That's shocking when you think about it.

What's even more shocking is that we have, however, changed the size of the 2 divisions in the league since 2002 - so we're back to having had no truly stable period in domestic football that has lasted more than 5 seasons.


The next change should be to incorporate more clubs from Ulster. Rather than wait for the IFA top be co-operative, and anyone who knows their history of Irish football over the last 100 years knows that that isn't going to happen, the Eircom League should issue invitations to the big clubs up North to join our slightly less shambolic league down here.

Firstly, we already have 3 clubs from Ulster (a province the majority of which is outside the jurisdiction of the EL) and only 2 from Connaught (a province entirely within the jurisdiction of the EL), so why is Ulster such a priority ?

Secondly why should we be looking to incorporate anyone at any point soon ? Our league has been in constant flux since it began 85 years ago. Why look to continue that, rather than try and introduce stability into what we've got and make that work first ?

Thirdly, the idea of the FAI approaching selected Northern clubs behind the back of the IFA to poach them into our league is ludicrous. It just won't happen. That's simply not how football works. The FAI wouldn't act in such an aggressive and under-hand way, the IFA would kick-up a huge stink if they did, and UEFA would step-in to put the FAI back in their place. If Northern Clubs wanted to join the EL themselves, and approached the FAI or EL independently, then that would be a different matter. But we're still years off that possibility becoming an eventuality.

If the sentiment was merely that any future change should focus upon Northern Ireland, then I'm afraid that that would be an unrealistic approach for our administrators to take anyway. You can't run a league in the hope of events that may well never happen. And it wouldn't be fair to deny any southern teams entry whilst this holy grail was being pursued.

[citybone]

i can agree on that but it still needs to be a pyramid down so that junior-intermediate starts from local divisions up to conference north/south divisions and can have a straight run up leagues if nessary
anyway junior and intermediate leagues still play winter football which would help if it changed to summer football for any link between intermediate and senior leagues to become easy or some other format anyway

[pineapple stu]

Has there been a proposal yet as to how you're going to jump from winter football to summer football? Fairly awkward to organise a play-off, for example, when the relevant clubs would be at entirely different stages of their seasons.

No problems with the idea in principle myself - provided UEFA Licencing is applied obviously. If there's a club out there who wants to and can improve the league, let them in.

[citybone]

Has there been a proposal yet as to how you're going to jump from winter football to summer football? Fairly awkward to organise a play-off, for example, when the relevant clubs would be at entirely different stages of their seasons.

No problems with the idea in principle myself - provided UEFA Licencing is applied obviously. If there's a club out there who wants to and can improve the league, let them in.
the eircom league took three seasons to change over why dont intermediate and junior also change?
gaa season? holidays?
it would give them a better chance in the fai cup and better pitchs and the underage teams players would have more free time to train etc.

[pineapple stu]

Not the point. The point is that Team A (being non-league) decide they want to enter the eL. Their season ends in May. At this stage, the eL has already started, so they can't enter now or they'd have a huge long season and lots of matches to catch up. The eL ends in November, when they can have a play-off (say) to enter the league, or simply replace the bottom team in Division One. At this stage, Team A are two months into their season. They then presumably have to withdraw from their league, causing results to be annulled, etc. If there's a play-off, one team would be fresher than the other (presumably the non-league team, who aren't at the end of a long season), which would given them an advantage.

How else can you arrange for a promotion/relegation between the two leagues?

[citybone]

change to summer soccer in intermediate league and wait till both have finished seasons it should take three years to change over or the team can have a huge off season like 18 months or so

[pineapple stu]

Well, that's the other option, yes. But will the clubs want to change? Will the players want their summers taken away, or will clubs find it too hard to arrange games around summer holidays? There'll have to be agreement from the entire junior/intermediate league clubs, the vast majority of whom have no intention of joining the eL.

[sullanefc]

A pyramid system will only work in a country with a big population. Should Cork Con, Dolphin, Garryowen etc be aloud to get promoted to the Celtic League in rugby???

[citybone]

this new "championship" in this new structure might work come on city reserves