View Full Version : Afghan Hunger Strike
monutdfc
16/05/2006, 10:03 AM
Surprised no-one has posted on this yet.
McDowell is refusing to negotiate with them. Is he Maggie Thatcher 25 years on? 3 brought to hospital today.
Apparently, for some of them it is not a case of having been denied asylum, they have not been processed yet after 4 years, during which they are not allowed to work. One blind guy was sent back and killed almost immediately. (Anyway, I support open door, so there's no point in me giving my opinions on what should happen. I'm sure this will prompt a debate and I'll read viewpoints.)
They are on a hunger and thirst strike - they should take water, that way it lasts much longer and builds up publicity and suspense which in turns garners more publicity.
I'm not on favour of the open door policy as this country cant look
after its own people properly yet, never mind those of other nations.
I actually only caught the tail end of the story on the news last night
but McDowell was saying cases are dealt on a individual basis and not
in a group demanding status etc which I think is right.
(granted I dont know the in's and out's of applications etc but I dont
think this country can be held to ransom in such a manner)
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 12:09 PM
The one thing I've long agreed with McDowell upon is that he can't run an asylum system based upon who can organise the biggest most prolific protest.
Our asylum system should be generous and compassionate -it should also be more efficient than it is -but it shouldn't be suceptible to this kind of nonsense or there'd be no system at all.
I'm not familiar with the specifics of these guys cases or what the average time delay for a decision on an application is ...but I'd have thought if I was looking for asylum I'd keep my head down as long as possible hoping the duration of my stay would mitigate in my favour.
The Thatcher comparison is ridiculous as well as the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
monutdfc
16/05/2006, 12:15 PM
The Thatcher comparison is ridiculous as well as the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Disagree. Thatcher publicly stated that she would not negotiate, meanwhile the hunger strikers died* . McDowell has publicly stated that he would not negotiate, and seems unconcerned if the Afghans die.
*(allegedly there were 'behind the scenes' negotiations approved by her, but that is not certain)
the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Not even remotely comparable??? hmmm.
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 12:40 PM
No -they're not comparable.
One involved poor political judgment on Thatchers Cabinets part -it would've cost them little by way of face and less by way of uniforms to re-instate special category status -christ if they'd played it right they could've let them wear their own togs and then make life considerably harder on them in other ways.
But no -Thatcher didn't want to be seen to be negotiating with them so she let them become martyrs and let the situation evolve where more petrol was thrown on the flames of an already volatile situation resulting in far more death, misery and hardship for ordinary innocent people.
To borrow a Sinn Fein catchphrase those ten lads deaths "were regretable" -but they got to decide the hour and manner of their own passing (how many IRA/INLA/UVF/UDA victims were given such courtesy I wonder) and as such I don't see them as being any different from your average mis-guided, misled Karbala Suicide Bomber.
McDowell isn't dealing with insurgents -but with people who are guests in this country and who are not satisfied with the manner and speed of the bureacracy they're encountering.
I seek to make no judgement either on their claim or the processing of it as I don't have the facts of either to hand -I'm merely pointing out the obvious -that if he caves in to everyone who doesn't like the answer they get or the time it takes to get it then the system collapses.
hoops1
16/05/2006, 12:44 PM
One question they obviously didnt get on the plane in Kabul and end up in Dublin why didnt they stay in any of the other
countries they came through?
One observation if you give in to them every chancer that is in the same situation is going to go on hunger strike!
monutdfc
16/05/2006, 12:51 PM
But it's not about caving in, it's about negotiating with them to stop the hunger strike.
Anto McC
16/05/2006, 12:52 PM
mod very helpful Anto...
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 1:09 PM
But it's not about caving in, it's about negotiating with them to stop the hunger strike.
What's to negotiate? You say some of them haven't even had their cases assesed yet. Is he to negotiate whether or not they're to be assessed?
And what of any who have been assessed and perhaps found not to qualify for asylum? What's he got to negotiate with them? "Our starting position is that you don't qualify for asylum but let's all work something out in the interests of a quiet life".
monutdfc
16/05/2006, 1:19 PM
Looks like McDowell has agreed for the Dept of Justice to meet them.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0516/asylum.html
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 1:32 PM
Im With Anto Mc On this.Hoops1 good point but to answer your question it's because this country has one of if not the least effective asylum processes and the most lenient in dealing with failed seekers.They know they will be here for years and will be provided for by the state for the duration. they also know there is plenty of dodgy cnuts that will pay them into the hand on building sites etc. Ireland is a soft touch for economic tourists anyone who thinks any different is Blind
Have you any figures for this Block g raptor? For Ireland and other EU countries.
Don't bother coming back on the thread without these. Cheers
They are on a hunger and thirst strike - they should take water, that way it lasts much longer and builds up publicity and suspense which in turns garners more publicity.
I agree with that. I don't know enough about these guys cases to comment on but as a Nation we are suckers for a bleeding heart story. We (as a nation) voted on citizenship referendum but everytime theres a sob story in the media we cave in.
Whats know with Afghanistan anyway? Didn't the US liberate it & now great democracy 'n all?
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 2:13 PM
I don't find BGRs contribution helpful either as it muddies the water between those who may need asylum and those who may be economic migrants.
The country has an obligation to look after the former to the nth of it's ability and a right to regulate and even cherry pick the latter in much the same manner as other countrys do.
I agree with that. I don't know enough about these guys cases to comment on but as a Nation we are suckers ----. We (as a nation) voted on citizenship referendum
Makes sense to me
Although the citiznship referendum would have made no changes to policy regarding asylum
Although the citiznship referendum would have made no changes to policy regarding asylum
I only used as example that we suckers for the sob stories i.e. no consistency.
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 2:19 PM
Ok I Dont have figures. But if you think about it rationally Why would so many immigrants chose to come to a small and pretty much anomynous country on the western frontier of europe over say France, Germany, or Britain, if not because we offer them more. also the point made above about landing first in other EU countries en route.European Law states that asylum seekers must claim asylum in the first eu state they reach now i know a lot of Immigrants come into the country in appalling conditions in lorries etc. but a lot also come in through Dublin Airport which has no Direct flights to places like Afghanistan or Nigeria. I personally know quite a few immigrants who lived in britain for years and who admit to coming here because they get better social benefits. I would like to clarify that I have no problems with genuine needy people making a decent life for themselves in this country. I beleive the system is open to abuse
Ok I Dont have figures. But if you think about it rationally Why would so many immigrants chose to come to a small and pretty much anomynous country on the western frontier of europe over say France, Germany, or Britain, if not because we offer them more.
I'll ask again. Can you get me figures for amount of asylum seekers in those countries. I guarentee you the numbers in ireland are miniscule compared to France and UK
I beleive the system is open to abuse
All systems are
Surely immigrants come here because too many jobs for population plus the wages here would be very high compared to their countries? Makes no sense to claim assylum in Germany where can't find a job if they approved. Even if they saved 10% of their irish income to send home that would buy a lot in their countries.
There is no excuse for unemployment in ireland today. I think we currently need more immigrants but we should have the option to reduce this level if when jobs start to dry up.
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 2:33 PM
I'll ask again. Can you get me figures for amount of asylum seekers in those countries. I guarentee you the numbers in ireland are miniscule compared to France and UK
All systems are
You're probably right about the comparison with other countries. do you have figures? but Id imagine if it was taken or a per capita basis It's my opinion from living in Dublin(Again I dont have figures but I do have eyes and ears) that
we would have quite a high amount of non-nationals(for want of a more appropiate word) PER CAPITA
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 2:46 PM
All systems are
Yes I agree but it is my opinion that our's is more susceptible to abuse than the Average.
http://www.orac.ie/pdf/PDFStats/Monthly%20Statistics/2006/March_ORAC_Statistics.pdf
You'll find the Irish stats at that link. One thing though, don't think all non nationals are asylum seekers, the vast, vast, vast mojority aren't.
Have the UK stats bookmarked (work thing) when I find them will post up
Yes I agree but it is my opinion that our's is more susceptible to abuse than the Average.
And the point I'm making is you have no idea of other sysytems (or indeed ours) so you have no basis for this apart from a couple of people you know...
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 3:03 PM
Fair enough I dont know the ins and outs of this and I agree that the vast majority of non Irish people in this country are from accession states. I have no problems with any of them. I'll be honest if I may It is my opinion that a significant Minority if not the Majority of asylum seekers in Ireland chose here because its easier to Scam our Government than the Brits
Fair enough I dont know the ins and outs of this and I agree that the vast majority of non Irish people in this country are from accession states.
Agree with who? Thats not the case at all.
I'll be honest if I may It is my opinion that a significant Minority if not the Majority of asylum seekers in Ireland chose here because its easier to Scam our Government than the Brits
But again you have no basis for this bar tabloid scaremongering. The British press say their's is the worst. Wonder what the French think?
Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 3:16 PM
But again you have no basis for this bar tabloid scaremongering. The British press say their's is the worst. Wonder what the French think?
Is it scaremongering?. maybee it's the Irish Inferiority complex but I honestly cant envision someone in Lagos deciding "I have to get out of this oppression. I think I'll go to Ireland" Cop on I doubt very much If there is a single Nigerian in this country that hasn't spent time living in the UK before coming here as word of mouth spreads as to how accomodating we are. I certainly havn't met any and through the course of my daily life I meet quite a few
Bald Student
16/05/2006, 3:32 PM
I agree that the vast majority of non Irish people in this country are from accession states.I would have thought that the British made up the biggest group of foreigners.
NeilMcD
16/05/2006, 5:39 PM
I read a stat in the Irish Times not too long ago that the biggest majority of non national in Ireland were from the US, after than came the UK and after that it was Poland I think.
Yanks out Yanks Out. Only joking by the way.
I I certainly havn't met any and through the course of my daily life I meet quite a few
Does this sentence make sense.
Bald Student
16/05/2006, 6:28 PM
Does this sentence make sense.It does when taken in the context of the previous sentence in which he refers to two groups of people; Nigerians here who haven't been to the UK and all Nigerians here. When he said "I haven't mey any ... I've met quite a few" he was referring to two different groups of people.
I honestly cant envision someone in Lagos deciding "I have to get out of this oppression. I think I'll go to Ireland" Cop on I doubt very much If there is a single Nigerian in this country that hasn't spent time living in the UK before coming here as word of mouth spreads as to how accomodating we are. I certainly havn't met any and through the course of my daily life I meet quite a few
Well they pay to go to Ireland so they go to Ireland. Not being funny but if you're going to tell me to cop on, you might wanna have a bit of a clue what you're talking about before you start thinking I don't. The VAST majority of Nigerians here (who as we know from the figures given to you are a small percentage overall) defintely do not live in the UK first. I worked 6 years in theat area. Trust me I know way more than you on this topic.
dahamsta
17/05/2006, 12:11 AM
Just the facts ma'am. Drop the cop ons and the bit of a clues please, both of you.
Lionel Ritchie
17/05/2006, 10:38 AM
I read a stat in the Irish Times not too long ago that the biggest majority of non national in Ireland were from the US, after than came the UK.
Though curiously I've not once heard an American or a Briton described as a "non-national" in any Irish media. Doubt they'd use it to describe a person from anywhere else in the English speaking world either (mmmmmmmmmmaybe South Africa).
It's like it's become a nudge-nudge, raise your eyebrows and nod all-knowingly thing.
Marked Man
17/05/2006, 12:05 PM
Have to laugh at Bertie's tough talk on the importance of playing by the rules on immigration while having just pledged funding to the movement to help Irish illegals stay in America. Rank hypocrisy.
anto1208
17/05/2006, 2:59 PM
does any one know why they will be killed if they go back to afganistan ??
anything to do with what they did there when they where part of the taliban . one was interviewed on the radio yesterday and when asked why they would be killed he refused to answer .
ive a feeling and its just my opinion but if nazi war criminals where on huger strike most would let them starve thats whats happening here .
Condex
20/05/2006, 7:54 AM
Well they pay to go to Ireland so they go to Ireland. Not being funny but if you're going to tell me to cop on, you might wanna have a bit of a clue what you're talking about before you start thinking I don't. The VAST majority of Nigerians here (who as we know from the figures given to you are a small percentage overall) defintely do not live in the UK first. I worked 6 years in theat area. Trust me I know way more than you on this topic.
I live in London and would agree with the VAST majority of Nigerians do come to London first, as there is a large Nigerian community here. Are you trying to say that they go directly to Ireland, highly unlikely...
I remember a few weeks back standing in a queue in a bank behind a Nigerian, he was trying to open a bank account using an Irish driving license.
On the Afghan hunger strikers, you can't give in to blackmail....
I live in London and would agree with the VAST majority of Nigerians do come to London first, as there is a large Nigerian community here. Are you trying to say that they go directly to Ireland, highly unlikely...
Not being funny but if you live in London, you'd have no clue about the Dublin situation. I do, and the vat majority of Nigerians here first settle in Ireland. Obviously not all but there you go...
Gardaí have removed the Afghan hunger strikers from St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0520/asylum.html
Condex
21/05/2006, 11:15 AM
Not being funny but if you live in London, you'd have no clue about the Dublin situation. I do, and the vat majority of Nigerians here first settle in Ireland. Obviously not all but there you go...
OK, so you live in Dublin, do you know all these people personally...
Knowing quite a quite a few Nigerians (they admit corruption is rife in their country) myself they will go where ever they find easiest to get the necessary papers to travel onwards in the EU, if thats Ireland so be it..
On the Afghan hunger strike I must commend the government/gardai on how they handled situation... Over here you fly a hijacked plane into the country they´ll give the hijackers asylum:rolleyes:
OK, so you live in Dublin, do you know all these people personally...
Know some. Also worked in the area for 5 years
Well done to the Gardai for bringing this circus to a halt.You can't allow blackmail and threats to succeed and undermine the asylum process.How would the Afghans like it if a bunch of Christians took over one of their mosques in Afghanistan for a week for a protest.They wouldn't last long I'd say.
Terry
22/05/2006, 10:00 AM
does any one know why they will be killed if they go back to afganistan ??
Theres a guy working with me that says that one of the Afgans is a wanted criminal in Afganistan for being a serial rapist (the death penalty awaits him). It was front page news on yesterdays Sunday Independent. Send him back, we should not be letting these people in our country.
placid casual
22/05/2006, 11:46 AM
oh well if its in the Sunday Independent then it must be true....
i live about 40 feet away from the cathedral and i have to say the most amusing thing was watching the reaction of the pro-immigration lobby(students,socialist worker etc) to the local kids who came out with "SEND THEM HOME banners" . they seemed to be a little bit wary of them.
anyway glad the situation was resolved with no fatalities.
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