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max power
16/05/2006, 8:17 AM
I pay €44 a week for this "service". 2 drivers who have already been paid for driving these trains go off on a mad one on another issue being dealt with and now it rolls over all of us, i'd love the media to get their names and ask them to justify their actions.

I was up this morning at 5.30 to drive up and will prob be here until after 7 tonight to avoid the traffic going down as well.

all unions are the same in my eyes, they to more harm than good i, i got to dublin yesterday morning only to find out i had no way home. i had to take a half day off work to make sure i got a bus as i was signing for my mortgage yesterday and had to be home.

I hate unions, all of them, they take money every week from hunderds of thousands of people and do damn all with it apart from the cosy weekends away for the delegates and then when something like this happens where are they, its their moral duty to ask the drivers to make this an offical strike or go back to work, but after 24 hours they have done neither.

After all we all want better conditions, but not to want to drive new trains when you look at the state of the rest of them is a joke

This reminds me of the carry on film where they all went on strike because there was a match on they were going to miss, oh weren't cork city playing at home last night ??? or did the toliet roll run out in the jacks !!!!

Macy
16/05/2006, 9:05 AM
Bad faith from CIE management. They were due to start talks today over the introduction of the new trains with regard to training, safety etc, so ask yourselves why Management decided to introduce the new trains the day before with no consultation? All they had to do was put the existing trains in service yesterday morning and there would've been service.

The drivers would be hung out to dry if there was an accident because they hadn't been trained in properly.

max power
16/05/2006, 9:30 AM
Bad faith from CIE management. They were due to start talks today over the introduction of the new trains with regard to training, safety etc, so ask yourselves why Management decided to introduce the new trains the day before with no consultation? All they had to do was put the existing trains in service yesterday morning and there would've been service.

The drivers would be hung out to dry if there was an accident because they hadn't been trained in properly.

sorry macy but i must disagree, the issues were outside these trains and they were indeed to be dealt with today. they were safety, pay etc but over the fleet and not this train.

The same happened with the dart drivers and the longer trains, any chance to get a cheap buck, if the issues are so important why hasn't an offical strike been called ???

the issue of the pay for these trains was resolved by the labour court on jan 12 and was put to bed, the other issues were to be dealt with at a later date as agreed in writing and that date was today, now i have looked at both sides and have no time for iarnrod eireann management but here all i see are drivers looking to bully more money, if it is legit then call a legit strike in the proper manner and not this cheap way in which they have.

drivers refused to drive the other trains, mine wasn't a "new" train and neither was the one i get home, but neither ran, i think there are 14 new trains in total ( 65 parts ) and the irony is they hold less than the current ones:rolleyes: but that issue is for another day.

pete
16/05/2006, 10:54 AM
Guy at working lives in Portlaoise so had to get taxi home last night. Can't come into work today becuase no guarantee he can get home.

If workers have complaints the very least they can do is give notice of a strike! It should illegal to have wildcat strikes & people should be jailed for it.

There is absolutely no defence for these "workers: Why should they be paid to train (on company time) how to drive new modern trains. FFS what other worker would get piad extra to upskill to modern technology?????

Anyone want to calculate the cost to the irish economy because of these illegal strikes?

max power
16/05/2006, 11:44 AM
Anyone want to calculate the cost to the irish economy because of these illegal strikes?

no but i'll gladly give you the cost to me.

Shelsman
16/05/2006, 12:59 PM
Do you support Train Driver's strike?

Rory H
16/05/2006, 1:04 PM
if they arent trained enough to operate the new trains they i support it

its not about money,its about safety and maybe i.e. should use some of the 35euro they are charging for that **** excuse of a train service from sligo to dublin on training them properly instead of now throwing it away on hiring private coaches to transport the passengers affected....

Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 1:17 PM
Haven't voted as I'd like more information but I'm beginning to find the safety argument spurious.

The labour court looked at the substantial issues back in January and found the drivers hadn't a legitamate gripe. The 'Health and Safety' strawman now appears to have been constructed in an act of spitting the dummy out.

I believe I'm strongly pro-union -but this is starting to smell like the kind of fcukactin' that gets unions a bad name.

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 1:21 PM
I can't vote, there's too much bull flying about.

EDIT: Can now.

Ash
16/05/2006, 1:25 PM
if they arent trained enough to operate the new trains they i support it...

Apparently thay have been already trained

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 1:26 PM
Apparently thay have been already trainedThis is what I mean. You say that they've already been trained, which is factually accurate. However they say that they were given one preliminary training session, and that this isn't enough. So if what they're saying is true, your statement is misleading.

Dodge
16/05/2006, 1:27 PM
If its an unnofficial strike, that means it wasn't sanctioned by unions, right? So how come some are criticising unions here?

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 1:30 PM
If its an unnofficial strike, that means it wasn't sanctioned by unions, right? So how come some are criticising unions here?Any opportunity to stick in the knife, even if it defies logic and common sense? If the cap fits...

Rory H
16/05/2006, 1:37 PM
im a bit confused now

Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2006, 1:46 PM
If its an unnofficial strike, that means it wasn't sanctioned by unions, right? So how come some are criticising unions here?

I should've been clearer on that -though I didn't criticise any given union -I said this sort of thing gives Unions a bad name.

max power
16/05/2006, 1:48 PM
Any opportunity to stick in the knife, even if it defies logic and common sense? If the cap fits...

no actually if it was a legit strike the company would talk to the workers via the union, the unions in question are making no effort to do this and are in MY EYES allowing this dispute to continue with no end in sight, maybe its ok for you to sit there and judge, but do you take the trains each day ??? are you paying for a service that is not being provided because two guys feel like a pay rise ????

dahamsta, you must realise that any company can't just give into workers all over the place, they have been told if this is a legit problem call a legit strike. BUT are they doing it, no. why ??? who knows. but i do think that the unions have a moral obligation to the public to advice their members of the correct course of action which is to go back to work OR make the strike legit.

you must remember that some of these workers are SIPTU members, as were many of the workers stranded yesterday and today, they are paying members of this union and should also have their interests looked after, what would SIPTU say if a worker got sacked because they couldn't get into work with this "strike", they would be up in arms. its normal workers this is getting at.

if i drive a ford focus and get a vw golf, how many days training do i need to drive it ??? these are meant to be professional drivers ffs:mad:

end of rant.

rebs23
16/05/2006, 2:06 PM
If its an unnofficial strike, that means it wasn't sanctioned by unions, right? So how come some are criticising unions here?

I work in an industry bedevilled by so called unofficial action. Union officials and committees instruct members to engage in picketing or go slows but then say it has nothing to with them ie. they didn't officially sanction strike therefore very hard to prove in court union was behind action thereby very hard to sue union.
It's a common enough union tactic to circumvent the need to go through legally binding dispute procedures and deny all knowledge. This is especially true if they have been through procedures and lost (like current rail strike) or if they know they won't win by going through procedures.
Trade Unions don't do themselves any favours by proving yet again that where they are strong they take the ****.

Jerry The Saint
16/05/2006, 2:14 PM
Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike: you just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way!

max power
16/05/2006, 2:20 PM
Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike: you just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way!

Well workers at irish rail would have to improve a lot to make it up to half assed;)

Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 4:06 PM
I've received A New Pc in work this morning. Very Hi Spec. Can I go on strike to get more pay for using it? Get back to work you Muppetts

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 4:35 PM
I've received A New Pc in work this morning. Very Hi Spec. Can I go on strike to get more pay for using it? Get back to work you MuppettsSomehow I doubt your PC has the same potential for death and injury as a train.

strangeirish
16/05/2006, 4:43 PM
I've received A New Pc in work this morning. Very Hi Spec. Can I go on strike to get more pay for using it? Get back to work you Muppetts
How do you really feel BGR?:D


Somehow I doubt your PC has the same potential for death and injury as a train.
He could electrocute himself.

Block G Raptor
16/05/2006, 4:55 PM
Somehow I doubt your PC has the same potential for death and injury as a train.
Fair Point but the real issue here is Money not training. and anyway according to an IR representative on Radio 1 this morning there is no significant difference in the operating procedure for the new trains

Bald Student
16/05/2006, 5:09 PM
Somehow I doubt your PC has the same potential for death and injury as a train.Adam, no one objects to the train drivers getting proper safety training, we're objecting to the train drivers wanting more money to do the same job as before.

Shelsman
16/05/2006, 5:33 PM
I think what most of us are angry about is the fact that they striked with no notice leaving (and estimated 35,000 I heard on the news ) people in the sh!t. They did this to get at the company but managed to FOOK everybody else in the process.

Selfish Wahnkers!

Couldn't they have gone back to the fcuking shed and taken the old one out and driven that instead??????? As for all the other w@nkers in all the other stations, they were just looking for a day off.

Someone give me a basket of eggs and I'm off down to Kent Station to find some of the fcukers.

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 6:00 PM
@BGR, an IR representative is biased by default. Until someone from the press examines this issue properly, I have difficulty believing anything from either side. Given the laziness of the press these days, I could be waiting.

@Bald Student, the drivers say training is the sole issue for them not driving the trains. Refer to my response above as to whether or not this is to be believed.

@Shelsman, firstly the drivers don't have a say in what trains they drive, and I'd imagine you know that; so secondly stop stirring; and thirdly even if you're not stirring, tone down the rhetoric or I'll throw you out of the forum.

dfx-
16/05/2006, 6:09 PM
Yes/Maybe = 2 votes

No = 15 votes.

Regardless of whether the issue is money, training etc, adam, is that they're going to need public support and if they lose that/don't have it, then there's no point in them going on.

One sure fire way of losing public support is doing what they did yesterday.

WeAreRovers
16/05/2006, 6:18 PM
Yes/Maybe = 2 votes

No = 15 votes.

Regardless of whether the issue is money, training etc, adam, is that they're going to need public support and if they lose that/don't have it, then there's no point in them going on.

One sure fire way of losing public support is doing what they did yesterday.

All because of the media reporting of it. There are about 10 posts on this thread alone containing unsubstanstiated claims. Even Bertie is taking through his arsé on this - without knowing the facts.

The HR boss of IR is not an honest broker on this FFS and he's had a free run of every radio show I've heard in the last few days.

KOH

NeilMcD
16/05/2006, 6:24 PM
I think it is always very hard to comment on industrial relations as journalists by their very nature are always pro busines and anti union as they are writing for big corporations. I think lots of us probably know of cases in our own job that the real story was not told by the media. I would not comment on an industrial action and judge another worker on the basis of whats reported on the media. The media are biased against unions and workers that strike as they fell the general public will support them most people are annoyed by the disturbance to their lives so they will blame the workers that striked. In some cases this is a valid argument and sometimes it is a very simplistic argument. The trick is finding out which is ones are valid and which ones are simplistic.

Bald Student
16/05/2006, 6:37 PM
@Bald Student, the drivers say training is the sole issue for them not driving the trains. Refer to my response above as to whether or not this is to be believed.Can you provide a link to that because the Irish Times says that:
Siptu and the National Bus and Rail Union sought a pay increase of 5 per cent for drivers, and a reduction in working hours, in return for the introduction of the new trains as well as other work changes.

...

NBRU general secretary Liam Tobin said last night that there was "a perception" among the drivers that all of the issues would have been agreed before the new trains were introduced.

Also, if safety is the sole issue why is it that
All other Cork-based drivers stopped work in support of their two colleagues, as did all drivers based at Inchicore in Dublin. Half of those based in Limerick also joined the action.If safety was the sole concern there should have only been 2 trains affected.

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 6:51 PM
I heard it on the radio Bald Student. And again, I'm not saying I believe it, I'm simply reiterating that there's a lot of commentary out there and very few hard facts. According to the guy on the radio, pay is a separate issue, they refused to drive the trains solely because of the safety issue. Presumably the other guys decided to strike in "solidarity". Or because they fancied a day off, I honestly don't know. I'm pretty sure they'd say solidarity though.

Since you all seem to be jumping to conclusions despite my attempts to sit as close to the middle of the road as I can, I'll say it straight out: I don't know who's to be believed. My point is that you shouldn't either, since there simply isn't enough hard factual evience out there for you to make honest judgements -- everything we've heard so far is biased commentary. Saying "unions are crap" or "IR are crap" based off this incident is just jumping to conclusions that suit your preconceptions.

(You above is collective.)

Bald Student
16/05/2006, 7:24 PM
I agree with you Adam that there's a lack of information and some of the information from both sides is contradictory but there's nothing wrong with forming an opinion on what facts are available. The clincher for me in this regard is the quote:
NBRU general secretary Liam Tobin said last night that there was "a perception" among the drivers that all of the issues would have been agreed before the new trains were introduced.Why are so many people being put out by a perception? Is that perception correct or incorrect? I'm assuming that it's incorrect since the union man wouldn't have used the word perception if it was something stronger than that. If there was an agreement or a commitment he would have said "... based on the agreement / commitment that ...". I'm also very skepticel of the claim that Irish Rail are forcing them to drive trains in an unsafe manner. What motivation would the management have to do this?

It's possible that when more facts emerge it'll turn out that I'm wrong but based on the facts that are there it seems to me that the drivers story had huge holes in it.

dahamsta
16/05/2006, 7:44 PM
I'm afraid that quote doesn't do anything for me tbh Bald Student. Just another line in a news story that could be read several different ways.

pete
16/05/2006, 7:51 PM
If the train drivers union thought this issue was a reasonable one they would ave back - fact is they are refusing to back the issue.

Nobody will take "workers" (i use the term loosely) seriously when they walk out on their job with no notice to deliberately inconvenience other people in the full knowledge that they work for a public company & will alwasy have their jobs whatever happens. If they worked for a private transport company it would probably go under due to p!ss off passenger & they would lose their jobs.

Bertie is the Taoiseach he is the ultimate boss of both Irish Rail Management & their drivers so it is also his ultimate responsibilty.

The Ireland of 2006 doesn't support strikes like this as in the past. Not much sympathy for freeloaders.

CollegeTillIDie
16/05/2006, 7:54 PM
Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike: you just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way!

10 Days holidays a year is also the American way... they can take a hike!:mad: max power, the reason you have a decent standard of living is because of trade unions. If you don't believe read about the 1913 Lockout when the owner of the Irish Independent ( at the time) William Martin Murphy was the leader of the Employers grouping and Jim Larkin was the leader of the Union employees.

I don't agree with unofficial strikes or wildcat actions for the record! The Ghost of ILDA and odious Mr. Ogle looms large

Bald Student
16/05/2006, 7:59 PM
10 Days holidays a year is also the American way... they can take a hike!:mad:If I may jump to Max Power's defence, he was quoting a famous philosopher, they're not his own words.

max power
17/05/2006, 9:32 AM
10 Days holidays a year is also the American way... they can take a hike!:mad: max power, the reason you have a decent standard of living is because of trade unions.

no the reason i have a decent standard of living is because i have my own business and work hard, i am not a member of a trade union and i have my own client whom i engage with on a personal level.

i am in a job with a trade union as well and am not a member, the pay is rubbish and i am leaving to start a second business so unions have done nothing for me, i've done it myself.

pete
17/05/2006, 10:57 AM
Much as I'd like to debate the Trade Union issue can we stay on topic as plenty of threads of the eveil of trade unions...

The question remains - if these drivers were given a 10k payoff they'd be off driving new trains immeadiately. Safety is just a diversion because the public don't have the knowledge to contradict.

dahamsta
17/05/2006, 1:59 PM
How do you know that pete?

Ash
17/05/2006, 2:10 PM
The question remains - if these drivers were given a 10k payoff they'd be off driving new trains immeadiately. Safety is just a diversion because the public don't have the knowledge to contradict.

I've been told pretty much the same thing from some non-driving staff
I know there.

Despite there being a Union, the drivers themselves stick together in
a kinda unofficial sub union so they can have the best of both worlds.
If the union dosent back them they back themselves.

pete
17/05/2006, 3:04 PM
How do you know that pete?

What else can i think?

Do you honestly believe Irish Rail would deliberately put untrained drivers into new trains? Maybe these drivers cheated on the test & now afraid they'll be found out ;)

dahamsta
17/05/2006, 3:06 PM
I honestly don't know what to think pete, because I don't believe the drivers are telling the whole story, and I don't believe Irish Rail are telling the whole story. I fail to see how you can make such an authoritative statement with the same information. Do you know something I don't?

John83
17/05/2006, 5:06 PM
I honestly don't know what to think pete, because I don't believe the drivers are telling the whole story, and I don't believe Irish Rail are telling the whole story. I fail to see how you can make such an authoritative statement with the same information. Do you know something I don't?
Ash seems to, though I've come to trust third hand word of mouth knowledge purple monkey dishwasher.

pete
17/05/2006, 5:24 PM
I honestly don't know what to think pete, because I don't believe the drivers are telling the whole story, and I don't believe Irish Rail are telling the whole story. I fail to see how you can make such an authoritative statement with the same information. Do you know something I don't?

It does not matter what the situation is because wildcat strikes are i think illegal. If this was really a 100% safety issue don't you think all train drivers in the country would have supported?

The train drivers have been moaning about extra pay for new trains this year dispite the Labour Court disagreeing. I am not naive enough (in this case) to believe a coincident & seems almost everyone hear thinks the same.

Has it been explained what the safety issue is?

Roverstillidie
17/05/2006, 5:39 PM
Has it been explained what the safety issue is?

the safety issue is that the drivers feel unqualified to stop the train in an emergency. its quite straightforward.

management and drivers after the labour court agree to defer the introduction of the new trains until a: all existing hr disputes are resolved and b: training courses (due this weekend i believe) are undertaken.

managment instruct 2 drivers to drive the trains. drivers respond 'not on your life, i dnont know how to drive it and anyway, thought they werent to be rolled out for another few weeks'. management say 'shut up and drive'. 2 drivers refuse and are told to go home without pay. other drivers walk out in protest at the treatment of drivers who refused to act a: recklessly and b: against the agreed policy of reconciliation between management and the union.

it was a provocotave move by cie management and they got a slap and backed down. very unfortunate that people got inconvienienced, but the likes of pete and maxpover would do their nut if something happened and they found out the train driver didnt know how do drive the train. howls of derision about why they werent resposible enough to refuse.

Plastic Paddy
17/05/2006, 5:52 PM
This from Railnews in the UK. http://www.railnews.co.uk/news.aspx?id=2645

:ball: PP

---

IRISH TRAIN DRIVERS CALL OFF UNOFFICIAL STRIKE
17 May 2006

TRAIN services in Ireland are returning to normal after train drivers agreed to lift their wildcat strike at 2 a.m. on 17 May.

Iarnród Éireann (Irish Rail) has also decided to delay the introduction of the new trains until next Monday in order to create space for further negotiation on the issue.

The talks on issues surrounding these new trains will be mediated by Phil Flynn.
In the early hours of 17 May, Mr Flynn “was forceful in persuading the locomotive drivers' committee to get their drivers to pull back from their unofficial action,” reported The Irish Independent.

The strike began at IE’s Cork depot when the first of the new trains was planned to be put into trial service on 15 May.

Other drivers at Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Westport and Dublin took action in support of their Cork colleagues, leading to widespread cancellations of services in western and southern Ireland.

dahamsta
17/05/2006, 6:46 PM
Has it been explained what the safety issue is?You don't think you're jumping to conclusions when you don't even know?

max power
18/05/2006, 11:26 AM
You don't think you're jumping to conclusions when you don't even know?


have you seen the new trains, they have the same controls as the old ones, its not as if the steering wheel has been moved, they have the same throttle and brake as the old trains and work in the same way, the cab is a little different and there is a diagnostics board which does not concren them.

they have electric doors as their present trains do also, these trains have to do 10,000 miles on track before the public can use them so drivers have had many hours on them.

and as for conclusions, as the saying goes, the dogs in the street know this is about money, if it was safety all drivers would have refused to drive, not just 2.

also if it was safety, it would have been safety over the whole fleet and not just heuston based drivers.

also if it was safety on the new trains then why did drivers who drive the arrow commuter train go on strike, what does that have to do with the mark 4 model ???

look at the facts available, if it was safety why was it not ALL DRIVERS IN ALL STATIONS ?????

remember the dart issue where the drivers wanted more money for longer trains, similar.

dahamsta
18/05/2006, 12:05 PM
A standard Volkswagen Golf and a Golf GTi look pretty alike on the surface of it, it doesn't mean they're the same thing. If the trains differ radically in weight, power, braking, etc, it would be a whole lot different to drive them.

Like I said, I refuse to jump to conclusions. The facts simply aren't out there. If you all want to think what your favourite newspaper tells you to, or what your blatant preconceptions lead you to believe, that's your lookout.

I'll stick with skepticism if it's all the same to you, and historical precedent: it's extremely likely that both groups are lying to us, and they're both to blame.

adam

max power
18/05/2006, 12:18 PM
A standard Volkswagen Golf and a Golf GTi look pretty alike on the surface of it, it doesn't mean they're the same thing. If the trains differ radically in weight, power, braking, etc, it would be a whole lot different to drive them
adam

have you driven a train or talked to any driver btw ???