Italy's shame

[londonirish17]

I think that we are witnessing the worst crisis ever in Italian football.
Of course corruption and other minor scandals have always been part of Italian football but this time I think it is just disastrous.
How would you react as non-Juve supporters and how would you react in the opposite case?
Is there still any interest to follow the Seria A ?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Despite all it's faults the overall quality of most of the teams in Serie A is higher than the so called Premiersh*t. It is a more open League teams near the bottom manage better results, despite corruption and match fixing, against higher up teams than in the English equivalent division.
This hopefully will not prevent Italia doing well at the World Cup! I won't used the popular catchphrase to support them as it is now the name of a political party :(

[eirebhoy]

Yeah, hopefully it won't affect their WC but it's not the first time something like this has happened in Italian football. In 1982 Paolo Rossi came back from a 2 year ban for match fixing/bribing and he went on to become the player of the tournament as Italy won the world cup. No players were involved this time but the Juve players will have a threat of their trophy being taking away from them.

[Pauro 76]

So what will happen, will Milan claim the last two titles, and if Juve are demoted to Serie B, what happens to the teams relegated this season?

[drinkfeckarse]

I doubt very much Juve would get domoted if they can prove anything....too much politics involved.

[John83]

So what will happen, will Milan claim the last two titles, and if Juve are demoted to Serie B, what happens to the teams relegated this season?
It's quite possible Juve will have all their points this season stripped from them, finish bottom and be relegated. There is precedent for this.


I doubt very much Juve would get domoted if they can prove anything....too much politics involved.
The only thing that can save Juve's bacon right now is that Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina, Chievo and a couple more are all implicated too. The evidence against them is pretty damning.

[Junior]

Yeah, hopefully it won't affect their WC but it's not the first time something like this has happened in Italian football. In 1982 Paolo Rossi came back from a 2 year ban for match fixing/bribing and he went on to become the player of the tournament as Italy won the world cup. No players were involved this time but the Juve players will have a threat of their trophy being taking away from them.

What happened with Rossi? HAdn't heard that before. He was always a playground favourite when you scored that screamer at lunchtime:D

[John83]

What happened with Rossi? HAdn't heard that before. He was always a playground favourite when you scored that screamer at lunchtime:D
Betting scandal. When he was playing for Perugia, they were accused of agreeing a 2-2 draw with Avellino before the game. He was one of the players implicated. I don't know what state the evidense was in, but he never admitted guilt, and got a three year ban (later reduced to two).

BTW, Buffon, Iuliano and several more players have been accused of some illegal betting too, though Buffon at least has denounced the claims as rubbish.

[superfrank]

The rule about players not being alot to bet is a really smart one. If only there was a similar thing in England or Spain...

Juve would more then likely hold on to all their players and come straight back up. Teams have been demoted before and came back such as AC, Lazio and Fiorentina.

[John83]

UEFA have suspended investigation, pending more evidence, so it's all domestic now.

[Dodge]

England and Spain both have rules stoppping players from betting on football. Rule means nothing though, as players just get their wife, mate or dad (as was the case with Michael owen) to do it

There was a Coppa Itialia game a few weeks ago that was obviously rigged. ON Betfair, there was 5 times the usual amount bet on the game and (practically) all of it was on the draw or on 0-0. Luca Toni missed a late penalty and no injury time was played. (Think it was Genoa v Fiorentina) End of seasopn games in italy are notorious for it, and some bookies won't take bets on matches...

[Poor Student]

I suppose another thing to consider is the recent change of government. Milan were a lot safer from such investigations a few months ago.

[John83]

I suppose another thing to consider is the recent change of government. Milan were a lot safer from such investigations a few months ago.
Not really. Berlusconi is still one of the most powerful men in Italy, PM or not.

[Clifford]

In light of the Serie A scandal...did Liverpool really win the Champions League?

Conspiracy theory time. With the allegations and naming of Milan being involved I pose this question: did Liverpool really win the Champs League Final or were they...ahem...how shall I put this...helped.


3-0 down at half time. Won on penalties. Dan Brown would have a field day. Wait for his next blockbuster "The Benitez Code".

*strokes pretend beard*

:D

[Poor Student]

Not really. Berlusconi is still one of the most powerful men in Italy, PM or not.

I'd imagine Prodi would seize an opportunity to disgrace him if possible. Is Berlusconi not in hot water now that his PM immunity has been lifted?

[stevieontour]

Even though I've always had alot of time for Juve as a team, if this is proven, I really hope the book is thrown at them, 3rd flight football, would really make anyone else think twice about it again.

Really makes me angry.

[anto eile]

ther have been loads of teams dfemotted for various reasons in italy over the years. napoli and fiorentina were hit hard in recent eyars to name jsut two.
i would love to see juventus languish in serie b,c1, or even c2

[Beavis]

What happened with Rossi? HAdn't heard that before. He was always a playground favourite when you scored that screamer at lunchtime:D
Ha ha love it, ours was always Robbbbertoooo Baggggggiiiiiooooo or Cantonaaaaahh and last ditch saving tackles were always acredited to McGrath:D

[John83]

In light of the Serie A scandal...did Liverpool really win the Champions League?
:) I like.

I'd imagine Prodi would seize an opportunity to disgrace him if possible. Is Berlusconi not in hot water now that his PM immunity has been lifted?
I haven't heard anything. I imagine his hold on the media would make him both a difficult man to crush, and a seriously bad one to unsucessfully attempt to.

...if this is proven, I really hope the book is thrown at [Juve]
It's not like they're alone in this. Italian football has always been rife with this sort of thing.

ther have been loads of teams dfemotted for various reasons in italy over the years... i would love to see juventus languish in serie b,c1, or even c2
The cases where teams have been demoted multiple divisions have all been financial. No one's ever gone down more than a division for match fixing, I think. (Someone feel free to correct me here)

[Billy Lord]

Juve should be relegated, as it's illegal to have them shot.
I was over at the Milan-Roma game last Sunday (I'm a Roma fan), and the standard of play and the level of skill on display was fascinating. Anyone who rubbishes Serie A is either ignorant or stupid.

[Dodge]

Anyone who rubbishes Serie A is either ignorant or stupid.
Or works for Sky Sports and has a vested interest in "the greatest league in the world"

(although I think the Spanish one is...)

[John83]

Anyone who rubbishes Serie A is either ignorant or stupid. No one has rubbished the standard of Serie A here.

Frankly though, I'm not surprised to see a fan of an Italian team being so proactively defensive about it. I don't like to generalise, but they must have the highest proportion of insecure fans who rubbish every other league and attack anyone who questions their attitude.

[londonirish17]

Juve should be relegated, as it's illegal to have them shot.
I was over at the Milan-Roma game last Sunday (I'm a Roma fan), and the standard of play and the level of skill on display was fascinating. Anyone who rubbishes Serie A is either ignorant or stupid.


I've always been a close follower of Italian football (AS Roma more particularly) and despite the whole mess I still will follow the league.
Corruption doesn't mean rubbish football being played on the field. This could happen anywhere, remember Germany's scandal with referee Robert Hoyzer...
The point is or rather the question is what should the average fan think about it ? As a supporter I couldn't identify myself with a club linked to corruption unless all responsibles are presented to justice and banned from football fields for ever...

[The Stars]

wonder what odds you would get on Juve being relegated? :)

[Billy Lord]

John83: where was I 'proactively defensive' about Italian football? Were you at the game last Sunday and don't share my opinion of what was on offer? And I didn't even mention any other league, never mind questioning its quality.
People who rubbish Serie A are clearly ignorant or stupid, because its football is of a standard way beyond most other leagues in the world, and that's merely stating a fact.
To deny or refute what is fact can only be regarded as an act of stupidity or ignorance.

[hoops1]

odds on juve losing title 10-1
Relegation 16-1?

[Junior]

Ha ha love it, ours was always Robbbbertoooo Baggggggiiiiiooooo or Cantonaaaaahh and last ditch saving tackles were always acredited to McGrath:D

Young pup!!

To be fair, Rossi, Zico, Francescoli or the likes were always in those first few months back at school after the summer break and a World Cup.............

But when it was back to domestic football it was always Mcgrath & Moran for the last ditch tackles and big Frankie Stapleton for the bullet headers:D :D

[John83]

John83: where was I 'proactively defensive' about Italian football?
Right here.

Anyone who rubbishes Serie A is either ignorant or stupid.
I think you'll agree that that's defensive. Given that no one had rubbished Serie A in the thread, that seems far from reactive.


Were you at the game last Sunday and don't share my opinion of what was on offer? And I didn't even mention any other league, never mind questioning its quality.
I don't disagree with your point at all. What I do disagree with is the attitude that your post displays, the same one I see all the time on the Juventus forums I moderate. I don't want to straw-man you here, but I'm forever reading fans of Italian football bashing other leagues. There's some insecurity there that makes them go on the attack in a pointless, baseless exercise.


To deny or refute what is fact can only be regarded as an act of stupidity or ignorance.
Frankly, refuting something is neither stupid nor ignorant, but that's a matter of semantics.

[Billy Lord]

I still fail to see where I was 'proactively defensive' although perhaps I don't understand the phrase. As far as I am concerned, I was stating a fact: people rubbish Serie A from either points of ignorance or stupidity. How else could anyone rubbish what is obviously an extremely high standard of football?
The fact that it wasn't rubbished in this thread doesn't make me 'proactively defensive', I was just stating a fact that I felt like stating, that's all.

[John83]

I still fail to see where I was 'proactively defensive' although perhaps I don't understand the phrase. As far as I am concerned, I was stating a fact: people rubbish Serie A from either points of ignorance or stupidity. How else could anyone rubbish what is obviously an extremely high standard of football?
The fact that it wasn't rubbished in this thread doesn't make me 'proactively defensive', I was just stating a fact that I felt like stating, that's all.
Fair enough. I don't want to argue over nothing. :cool:

Just one last go at explaining what I meant:
Defensive: You defended the standard of football in Serie A.
Proactively: Opposite to reactively. You defended the standard of football Serie A without reacting to any question of it.

[Closed Account 2]

Juve appear to have been caught red handed this time. If they federation don't throw the book at them now then I really fear for the credibility of Serie A.

Anyone else think this season was particularly strange, with Milan loaning Abbiati out to Juve (their biggest rivals). Without Abbiati (and this has an element of speculation) Juve might have dropped a few more points and Milan could have caught them.

Kinda makes you wish someone outside of the Milan-Juve duo would win Serie A (like when Roma got it in 2000 and Napoli and Verona going back even further).

[Dodge]

Top italian clubs regularly loan out players to each other. Always fouind that strange but obviously they don't

[londonirish17]

I still fail to see where I was 'proactively defensive' although perhaps I don't understand the phrase. As far as I am concerned, I was stating a fact: people rubbish Serie A from either points of ignorance or stupidity. How else could anyone rubbish what is obviously an extremely high standard of football?
The fact that it wasn't rubbished in this thread doesn't make me 'proactively defensive', I was just stating a fact that I felt like stating, that's all.

Again, the aim of this thread is not to discuss or comment the quality of Italian football. We all know about the strength of Italy's football.
I just wondered how people feel about this season knowing that some irregularities took place ? Should we really regard Juve as truly winners? What about other teams' (Siena,...) influence on the calcio ?

[John83]

Juve appear to have been caught red handed this time. If they federation don't throw the book at them now then I really fear for the credibility of Serie A.
I've read an Italian lawyer's opinion that the wiretaps aren't admissible in court. I'm not sure if that'll save them, but as I said, it'll be tough to relegate every club involved.


Anyone else think this season was particularly strange, with Milan loaning Abbiati out to Juve (their biggest rivals). Without Abbiati (and this has an element of speculation) Juve might have dropped a few more points and Milan could have caught them.
Almost certainly, but they didn't know that at the start, and they did injure Buffon in a pre-season friendly, so it was only fair.


Kinda makes you wish someone outside of the Milan-Juve duo would win Serie A (like when Roma got it in 2000 and Napoli and Verona going back even further).
Inter might win it soon. They nearly overhauled Milan this season.

[Dodge]

Tax police search Juventus offices as probe goes on



TURIN, Italy, May 18 (Reuters) - Italian tax police searched the offices of soccer champions Juventus, already reeling from allegations of match-fixing, and the homes of two of their top players on Thursday.

Police entered Juve's HQ as part of an investigation into the club's dealings in the transfer market and also visited the homes of Swedish striker Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Italy captain Fabio Cannavaro, an investigative source told Reuters.

Transcripts of telephone conversations of Juventus general manager Luciano Moggi discussing the signings of the two players have been published in Italian newspapers. Neither Ibrahimovic nor Cannavaro are under investigation by authorities.

Magistrates have placed Juve's chief executive officer Antonio Giraudo and Moggi, who resigned last week, under investigation on suspicion of false accounting relating to the club's transfer dealings.

Investigative sources in Naples said the police had visited the home of Moggi's son Alessandro as part of a probe into the operations of his soccer management company GEA World

In a statement, Juventus confirmed the police search of their offices was taking place. The source said that police were also visiting the personal residences of Moggi. Juventus denied Giraudo's home had been visited.

Juventus shares closed down 9.2 percent at 1.3360 euros by 1217 GMT, against a 0.58 percent dip in the overall market <.MIBTEL>.

The club, winner of the Italian league title for the second year running on Sunday, has lost more than 40 percent of its market value since May 9, before the board resigned, and is now worth about 165.7 million euros ($213.7 million).

Juventus faces possible relegation to Serie B if its officials are found guilty of attempting to influence the outcome of matches.

The telephone transcripts showed Moggi discussing referees with the man responsible for refereeing appointments in Italy.

The country's referees association said on Thursday it had provisionally suspended all the referees under investigation.

Juventus said earlier this week that Carlo Sant'Albano, chief executive of the Agnelli family's holding company Ifil which controls the club, would be put temporarily in charge of Juventus at a board meeting set for Friday.

The Turin investigation is one of several to have rocked the world of Italian football this month.

In Naples, 41 people including officials of several clubs, referees and Football Federation executives are under investigation for suspected match-Fixing

The president and vice-president of Italy's federation resigned last week and it was put under emergency administration.

Administrator Guido Rossi, the 75-year-old former head of the stock market regulator, spent 2-1/2 hours with Naples magistrates on Thursday.

Judicial sources said that the meeting had discussed how and when investigators would pass on documents to the federation.

Officials from six-times European champions AC Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina are also under investigation by magistrates.

European soccer's governing body UEFA needs to know by June 5 the list of clubs who will play in next season's two European competitions. There are concerns a federation investigation into the telephone taps will not be completed by then.

A UEFA spokesman said it was ready to listen to any application for an extension from the Italians when the executive meets in Scotland on Monday

The draw for the qualifying rounds take place on June 24.

[deadman]

Paddy Agnew had a brilliant page dedicated to this mess in saturday's times. good read

says, all managers, reporters, club officials knew this was going on .... although maybe not to such at degree

seems so endemic in italy .... no body can claim to be innocent.

what happens in the unlikely event of Juve been stripped of their titles????
milan get them??? some how i can't see any club run by Berlusconi being completely clean either ....

[Stuttgart88]

Lippi, the national team manager, seems to be caught up in things now.

[geysir]

After reading http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/internationals/article549804.ece
Lippi has no reason to sweat (yet)
There appear to be 2 allegations against Lippi.
1. his teamsheets confirm requests to rest Juve players
2. "Lippi favoured GEA (agents) players when picking his team alluding to "the benefits to an agency of having a player called up for Italy are clear".

with nr 1.
"Renzo Ulivieri, head of the Italian coaches' association, said all national team coaches came under the same kind of lobbying to include or leave out certain players."

with nr 2
"statistics concerning the number of GEA players called up by Lippi in his two years in charge are inconclusive. Only three of the 23 players meeting today at Coverciano are with the agency."

[geysir]

Paddy Agnew had a brilliant page dedicated to this mess in saturday's times. good read
I'm too cheap to subscribe, any chance you can post it up, please.

[londonirish17]

Things are heating up down there in Tuscany where Italy is currently preparing their WC.
At the arrival of the coach many players (Buffon more particularly) were verbally abused.
Several newspapers also wonder if Lippi is up to the task. There is talk of a "psychological trauma" which in my view is pure rubbish...
The best they could do is actually to leave the country and prepare the WC in a quiet and serene athmosphere.