View Full Version : League Winner - CL place Playoff
Discussion...
Many sports have a playoff system for top of the league to decide the winner. Would this be good for the eL? Would like having a few cup finals rolled together to decide CL participant - would generate decent media coverage in November which is generally slow sport month...
Downside i see isn't traditional to football & that could means 4th place team would qualify for the CL when we really need our best team in that competition.
DmanDmythDledge
11/05/2006, 5:50 PM
I don't think it's a good idea. The higher placed team over the course of the season deserves it more. Also, playoffs can be a lottery at the best of times.
would generate decent media coverage in November which is generally slow sport month
Disagree with you there. Is the title run-in and FAI Cup not enough for you:rolleyes:
dancinpants
11/05/2006, 5:52 PM
Don't really like the idea of that in fairness. As you hinted to pete, the thought of a team that win's the "regular" season being denied a CL spot by a "lesser" team in a playoff just isn't right.
Would kind of cheapen the league if you know what I mean :o
el punter
11/05/2006, 5:58 PM
yeah, have to agree it's a turkey
CharlesThompson
11/05/2006, 10:07 PM
So is that end of discussion? Nice try Pete.
Dodge
11/05/2006, 10:51 PM
I used to be totally against this idea, purely on traditional grounds but now I think it could be the exact thing that'd worrk with the Irish general public.
Although you'd be guarenteed legal action if Shels are denied anything...
LeixlipRed
11/05/2006, 11:23 PM
no we'd have the legal action done and dusted before it ever got to a playoff :) Think its a great idea for generating interest in the league. Look at the situation in England with the Championship, noone pays it any attention all year and then suddenly the playoffs are on and everyone knows about it. Actually if you asked most casual football fans in June who won the Championship they might not be able to tell you but im sure they'd know who won the playoff final.
Of course saying all that, its not really fair to deny the most consistent team the League title or deny them a CL place. And the idea of a 4th place team going into the CL is a joke really. Perhaps a playoff between the top 2? its a non starter though IMO
holidaysong
11/05/2006, 11:59 PM
That is a terrible idea in my opinion. The team that proves themselves the best over 33 games should get the Champions League spot, no questions asked. A 4 game lottery after that just takes away from their achievement in the previous 33 games and in a way devalues the league table.
OneRedArmy
12/05/2006, 2:03 AM
People are forgetting that we had, accidentally, a 2 team playoff for the League at the end of last season.
Probably best addressed at the neutrals, but did it add much? was it worth it? From what I remember the TV viewing figures were very strong.
thomas
12/05/2006, 5:35 AM
I suggested this a while back as it would be easy to do a federated all-ireland "Grand Final" when the associations (eventually)merge. The traditional titles would still be up for grabs with euro spots decided in the playoff phase.
Tradition has not served anyone well in the last 30 years. A change to the format will raise the profile of the game no-end.
One great thing the Aussies have is a Rivalry Round, which is a great idea to get punters in...
Tv money is massive for playoffs, similar formats around the world (champions league last 16 onwards, Superbowl playoffs, All-Ireland, Heino Cup etc..) rake in the sheckles which would be a huge boost to the domestic game.
Celdrog
12/05/2006, 6:21 AM
Pete - are you expecting not to win the league this year and starting a campaign to get Cork a CL spot????
Don't forget - Cork don't do cup finals, but the Drogs do.
BTW - it would be a stupid idea, whoever comes 1st deserves the CL spot.
Discussion...
Many sports have a playoff system for top of the league to decide the winner. Would this be good for the eL? Would like having a few cup finals rolled together to decide CL participant - would generate decent media coverage in November which is generally slow sport month...
Downside i see isn't traditional to football & that could means 4th place team would qualify for the CL when we really need our best team in that competition.
Only the "Champions" of each league should be in the competition, I think that should go for all countries.
Don't forget - Cork don't do cup finals, but the Drogs do.Cup Kings indeed, Kinda like Longford
el punter
12/05/2006, 8:25 AM
Having mused a little deeper on this suggestion. Hazy thoughts came back to me of the early 90's and a series of 3 way play-offs with Bohs, Shels and Cork for the title.
There were massive crowds and massive interest in it, so maybe there is something there.
Only the "Champions" of each league should be in the competition, I think that should go for all countries.
Yeah but the winners of the "Grand Final" would be the champions. The league would only be a qualifying tournament
The Dutch are trying something like that this year with four clubs playing off for their final champions league spot.
I kinda think it would suit here, with the amount of bandwagoners there are.
I'd go for two regional divisions of 12, home and away in each, with one series interdivisional. 33 game normal season. Then play off's for the title. Give all clubs more high profile derby games and reduced travel costs.
You could have playoff's down the divisions for championship, trophy, shield etc with financial incentive's, to keep the interest for all clubs till the end of the season.
MariborKev
12/05/2006, 11:17 AM
Has everyone forgotten that we had a playoff system briefly in the 90s?
micls
12/05/2006, 11:52 AM
If this happened would we not end up with a case of 4 teams just aiming to reach top four rather than win the league. Say the last day of the season was the same as last year with either Cork or derry able to win-would both teams play their reserves to save the players for the playoffs?
If we had 2 champions league spots I think this could work with winner getting an automatic place and next 3 or 4 playing off but with only one I think it would devalue the league with th aim being to finish in top 4 rather than win it
Sniffer
12/05/2006, 12:23 PM
Play off idea is a non runner.The English Championship was mentioned, tthe 3rd placed side can finish any amount of points ahead of the 6th placed side , who often scrapeinto the play offs oon the back of a great run. The 3rd placed side can be home and dry a few weeks before the season ends and are winding down as the crunch matches in the play off approach. Leagues are about each team playing the others home and away and the teams with the most points at the end proving their superiority over the course of a season, not over 90 minutes when anything can happen[this is often referred to as Cup Football]. Re. the fabulous 3 way play off of the 90's, what made it special was that all three sides had competed in the league and proven themselves to be as equal as made no difference, remember they weren't easily separated by the playoff either.
pineapple stu
12/05/2006, 12:38 PM
The Dutch are trying something like that this year with four clubs playing off for their final champions league spot.
They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.
Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.
Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.
In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.
I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.
A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.
DmanDmythDledge
12/05/2006, 12:53 PM
They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.
Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.
Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.
In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.
I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.
A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.
I've never been more confused. That is the biggest load of sh!t I've ever heard.
I don't agree with playoff system but just opened for discussion. I will makew case for it for discussion purposes.
Tradition is great but ultimately its a financial decision. The question really is what would the league gain & what would it lose?
November is a quiet sports month & imagine if had the interest from Cork City v Derry City last season multiplied by 3 games? Lets say for argument say 8000 people watch Cork City v Drogs, Derry City v Shels has 6000 & Cork City v Derry City in Lansdowne gets 20,000...
Irish people love the big event as evidenced by Heineken Cup & GAA Championship games.
pineapple stu
12/05/2006, 1:01 PM
Tradition is great but ultimately it's a financial decision
I disagree entirely. The day sport is ruled by money and not tradition and common sense is the day the fourth-placed team from a league can win the European Cup.
LeixlipRed
12/05/2006, 1:20 PM
They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.
Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.
Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.
In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.
I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.
A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.
Does anyone elses head hurt after reading that??? what a pile of crap
Block G Raptor
12/05/2006, 1:26 PM
Think about this. The Top Four playing off for the Title . Four of the Bottom 5 Playing off to avoid Relegation. Live on TV lots of Hype/Advertisement. all the Glitz, fireworks etc. for the respective finals. It's all about gimmicks and maybe the eL needs a gimmick to get the event junkies interested. What harm can it do really
LeixlipRed
12/05/2006, 1:41 PM
well it could completely devalue the league for one
well it could completely devalue the league for one
It doesn't seem to affect other sports. Has the eL fallen behind because it is victim to tradition. Tradition is what has some people saying Dalymount should not be sold but at the same time those people won't attend games there as poor facilities.
It might allow a 16 team Premier with 30 regular games?
pineapple stu
12/05/2006, 3:27 PM
Has the eL fallen behind because it is victim to tradition.
Has the Premiership fallen behind because of similar tradition? Or most of the leagues around the world where play-offs don't decide the league winners?
Bald Student
12/05/2006, 3:33 PM
It doesn't seem to affect other sports.Can you give an example? The only one I can think of is club rugby.
What would last year's league have been like if there was no difference between finishing first or fourth?
Al US Sports, All Australian sports, Rugby League and Union in Britain...
The only place where a round robin league decides anything is in football. Honestly this could be a very marketable thing. Something the league obviously isn't
The only place where a round robin league decides anything is in football. Honestly this could be a very marketable thing. Something the league obviously isn't
Maybe have playoff for Setanta Cup places or InterToto or something as trial run. 3rd-7th have playoff for the Inter Toto as experiment? maybe just keep 1 Setanta Cup place open for the playoffs & give boost the midtable end of season battle. Actual i like the last suggestion, better patent it. :)
nah, play offs for 3rd place are always ****e... It'll only owrk if they actually mean something...
nah, play offs for 3rd place are always ****e... It'll only owrk if they actually mean something...
I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...
Bald Student
12/05/2006, 4:34 PM
Maybe have playoff for Setanta Cup places or InterToto or something as trial run. 3rd-7th have playoff for the Inter Toto as experiment? maybe just keep 1 Setanta Cup place open for the playoffs & give boost the midtable end of season battle. Actual i like the last suggestion, better patent it. :)That sounds like a good idea. Maybe have the final of the playoff as a double header with the FAI Cup final?
Poor Student
12/05/2006, 4:43 PM
I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...
I made a post suggesting this before about a playoff for the Inter Toto spot. It would extend meaning to the midtable and see that there's very few meaningless games in the league. Also, given that it's only the Inter Toto, having a lower ranked club in Europe would not damage the co-efficient.
I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...
No downside but if we'ere talking Marketing, 4th v 5th in a12 team league isn't great...
No downside but if we'ere talking Marketing, 4th v 5th in a12 team league isn't great...
Marketing is all about image.
thomas
14/05/2006, 4:36 AM
Exactly, all about image.
The standard of aussie football is diabolical yet they attracted 42,000 to their first playoff final. Previously league clubs were lucky to get 1,500 to a game.
Its all about the market we are in. The play off system is best suited to getting punters through the stiles.
anto eile
17/05/2006, 10:22 PM
I think that everybody bar the G14 agrees with that. The Champions League is nowhere near as special as it was 10 years ago. I am sure that UEFA and the Football Associations around Europe would love to see a return to the structure of the early 90s, but unfortunately the G14 hold all the cards.
When only the Champions were allowed to enter the Champions League was much more prestigous, the UEFA Cup was much more prestigous, the Cup Winners Cup had a purpose, the Intertoto would have been taken seriously, and domestic leagues and Cups around Europe would have been more prestigous also.
The g14 have taken a lot of the gloss off of World Fooball in my opinion.
agree with that.
id love to see uefa/fifa/individual clubs stand up to the g14.
the only g14 club i could respect is Barcelona.owned by fans run by fans for the fans.(im aware madrid are the same but i dont like them)
dont think playoffs are a good idea in the EL.they did playoffs for european places in Holland this year,ajax finished 4th, 14 points behind 2nd placed team,but won the playoff and got the champions league spot. joke
anto eile
17/05/2006, 10:27 PM
That sounds like a good idea. Maybe have the final of the playoff as a double header with the FAI Cup final?
what if one or both teams qualify for both finals??ie cork drogheda this year
Conor H
17/05/2006, 10:38 PM
I don't think myself that a playoff is the way to go by any means.Having said that they do attract the crowds and generate great publicity.....as was evident in Terryland a couple of years back.Crowd almost doubled for the playoffs v Drogheda and Harps.They should be kept by whatever format the league adopts next year,but not as a way to deide champions.....mearely as a promotion/relegation decider.
Student Mullet
17/05/2006, 10:47 PM
what if one or both teams qualify for both finals??ie cork drogheda this yearIf a team is in the cup final they're already in a playoff for a european and setanta spot so they don't get to enter the playoffs.
bigmac
18/05/2006, 9:00 AM
why not extend the play-off down the table to encompass more teams? Have say the top 12 teams play each other home and away and then the best team gets the CL spot....
...oh wait.
Ceirtlis
18/05/2006, 1:48 PM
A playoff for the league is a non-runner. is it really worth selling the soul of the league for one or two big games and big crowds.
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