Older Players Returning to the Eircom League [Archive]

bawn79

11/05/2006, 10:43 AM

Ive just seen that Kenny Cunningham has been released by Birmingham, is there anyway that older big-name players could be persuaded to return to Ireland rather than drop down the divisions in England?
I know its all about the money but maybe the FAI could encourage it through offering them roles within the coaching structure of the FAI or something.
I dont know just throwing out ideas.

Dodge

11/05/2006, 10:49 AM

Just on this. Congratulations to Pats' legend Curtis Fleming for succesfully destroying Shels seaason last year.

Oncea saint...

pete

11/05/2006, 11:21 AM

I think irish players move to the UK so young that by the time they are about to retire they have established connections in the Uk that in hurry to move back to ireland. Cunningham will probably have spent 1/2 his life living in England.

I would like to see it happen though. Fleming was probably too close to retirement but Cunningham would have another 2-3 seasons left in him. Financially though i doubt an eL club would make someone like Cunningham one of its best paid players.

NeilMcD

11/05/2006, 11:37 AM

Good point there Pete. I think they have set up home in England and although they are Irish there kids etc are going to schools there etc etc so the idea of moving back to Ireland is probably not one that they thinkg about seriously. I think its issues outside the quality of the league that stop players coming back to Ireland.

Plastic Paddy

11/05/2006, 12:10 PM

So you're saying, Neil, that the schools and all are better in England... :eek: ;)

:ball: PP

pete

11/05/2006, 12:19 PM

Scandanavian player seem to be return hoem for last few years of their career (Larsson turned down contract extension with Barca for 18 months with midtable Swedish team) but i think thats because they tend to be european football nomads moving between several countries so maybe not so solid connections.

Would Cunningham be better than the central defenders of the top eL sides? Would he choose League One over the eL where money would be similar depending on the club...

NeilMcD

11/05/2006, 12:19 PM

Never said that, I said that they have set up home there and their kids are in schools etc so they probably dont want to uproot them etc. I am sure Keane is thinking the same thing when he considers staying on an extra year at Celtic.

pineapple stu

11/05/2006, 12:22 PM

I think irish players move to the UK so young that by the time they are about to retire they have established connections in the Uk that in hurry to move back to ireland. Cunningham will probably have spent 1/2 his life living in England.
Also, if they're looking to stay in the game, they'd just stay in England as they'd want to end up coaching/managing there anyway due to the number of opportunities among other things. Niall Quinn returned to live in Ireland - one of the few, as far as I can see - and is now getting heavily involved with Sunderland so may well move back.

Would Cunningham be better than the central defenders of the top eL sides?
Eh...yes.

livehead1

11/05/2006, 12:29 PM

Would Cunningham be better than the central defenders of the top eL sides?

:D :D :D the best, and comfortably. Who would you say the best defender in the EL is, Gavin?

bawn79

11/05/2006, 12:30 PM

I agree with the setting up homes in England, that is probably a big factor as well. Even at the end of there career if they were only average players it would be great to see them playing for the draw in terms of crowds plus the experience they would bring re club organisation etc. Also once they retire they could move into management.
I wonder do a lot of Irish players have English partners? perhaps because of the age they leave this would be quite likely. A 16 year old obviously isnt going to bring his girlfriend over with him.
If they left at the 21-22 year old age then the odds would be higher that they would have Irish partners. That could be a factor in the Swedish players heading home.
The circle continues i guess, get older players to come back would improve the league and then players wouldnt have to move until they are 21-22.
But until the rot of players going over at a young age then they will more than likely put down roots.
Thats why I was wondering if it was possible to get say 10 big name players to come back through some kind of intervention by the FAI and place them each with a club ala the MLS in america.
Totally pie in the sky i know.......

drinkfeckarse

11/05/2006, 12:33 PM

Would Cunningham be better than the central defenders of the top eL sides? Would he choose League One over the eL where money would be similar depending on the club...

Miles better and I don't think Cunningham will be short of offers at all either from lowly Premiership teams or decent Chanpionship sides. You don't go from being a Premiership regular one minute to hoping for a League One club the next.

There'll never be a shortage of clubs looking for players with his experiance.

pete

11/05/2006, 12:36 PM

Cunningham for example would have much higher wages than any of the current top eL sides equivalent so would be a fact of where to invest your money.

Plastic Paddy

11/05/2006, 12:38 PM

Totally pie in the sky i know.......

...but you do make some excellent points.

I suspect you're right; that players that leave their home country before they are 20 are more likely to settle with partners from the country in which they play their football, whereas players that are older may well take their partners or families with them and hence be more likely to return. If only clubs in Ireland could hang on to the young prospects rather than the talent continuing to haemorrhage to Britain as now...

:ball: PP

livehead1

11/05/2006, 5:40 PM

If only clubs in Ireland could hang on to the young prospects rather than the talent continuing to haemorrhage to Britain as now...

:ball: PP

a double edged sword, they train with some of the best players in Europe when they go over and are trained by more highly qualified coaches, with better facilities.

Roverstillidie

11/05/2006, 7:33 PM

a double edged sword, they train with some of the best players in Europe when they go over and are trained by more highly qualified coaches, with better facilities.

nonsense, we produce the best schoolboy sides in europe.

and besides, how many other countries with similar standard leagues/underage set ups let their players go for free to another country?

cheifo

11/05/2006, 11:19 PM

Theres also the player manager role or coaching role option(a la farelly).
Imagine if Keane decided to cut his management teeth at Cork, big crowds,
guaranteed exposure etc.

Dodge

12/05/2006, 6:12 AM

And I@m sure it'll work out just as positively as Farrelly's has...

Plastic Paddy

12/05/2006, 6:34 AM

a double edged sword, they train with some of the best players in Europe when they go over and are trained by more highly qualified coaches, with better facilities.

I do not believe that the interests of players like Colin Larkin or JJ Melligan (to name but two) have been better served by kicking around the English lower leagues with the likes of Mansfield or Chesterfield (Larkin), Kidderminster or Cheltenham (Melligan) than they would have been by staying at home and playing for Cork, Drogs or whoever. They certainly won't have been training with Ronaldo at Aggborough or Saltergate!

And for Larkin or Melligan read Cryan, Gilroy, Foy or any of the other promising Irish talents to have fallen by the wayside in England...

:ball: PP

livehead1

12/05/2006, 9:38 AM

nonsense, we produce the best schoolboy sides in europe.

and besides, how many other countries with similar standard leagues/underage set ups let their players go for free to another country?
o for god sake will you ever get off your EL loving high chair. you miss the point completely. Its simply not up for debate. The coaching standards in Britain and the training facilities are much better.

livehead1

12/05/2006, 9:40 AM

I do not believe that the interests of players like Colin Larkin or JJ Melligan (to name but two) have been better served by kicking around the English lower leagues with the likes of Mansfield or Chesterfield (Larkin), Kidderminster or Cheltenham (Melligan) than they would have been by staying at home and playing for Cork, Drogs or whoever. They certainly won't have been training with Ronaldo at Aggborough or Saltergate!

And for Larkin or Melligan read Cryan, Gilroy, Foy or any of the other promising Irish talents to have fallen by the wayside in England...

:ball: PP
of course there is but i am a firm believer that the best will rise to the top given the right facilities and oppurtunities. For example, Keith Foy. He was let go by forest cos he couldn't sort out the drink. I can remember him and andy reid in a pub called Callaghans on the Karaoke steamed out of the head. they were told to lose the weight, reid did, foy didnt.

Soper

12/05/2006, 9:58 AM

Noelys Guitar

12/05/2006, 12:20 PM

John Giles returning to take over Rovers in the 70's seemed at the time like a big turning point for the then LOI. With the other WBROM Irish crew and Dunphy, Irvine, Lynex and a some very good younger players it all looked bright for the hoops and the league. Too many players past their best could not win the league with only the cup won the first season. The Giles genuine "experiment" soon fizzled out. What the EL needs is players at their prime coming into the league from anywhere abroad to mix with the best that are aleady here. That will take large sums of money. Why investors are running off to Sunderland and not to Rovers ( or any number of EL teams) is beyond me. Things can be turned around very quickly. If the Brazilians playing for Sevilla had been playing for Shels who is to say Shelbourne wouldn't have gotten to the group stages of the CL? Far-fetched? Not if the money is made available. Will the right players come to the EL? Ruckin-right they will if the dough is there.

pineapple stu

12/05/2006, 12:26 PM

It's simply not up for debate. The coaching standards in Britain and the training facilities are much better.
Just to add my two cents very briefly on that post - UCD's training facilities aren't far off Premiership standard, according to a player who's played for us and with a Premiership club. Football coaching may be better in England - although with UEFA badges now, the standard should be evening out a bit - but life coaching is much better in Ireland than in England. It's all well and good if a club can make you a better player, but if they ignore you or treat you badly, as happens all too often in England, you won't make it.

Shelsman

12/05/2006, 12:54 PM

Just to add my two cents very briefly on that post - UCD's training facilities aren't far off Premiership standard, according to a player who's played for us and with a Premiership club.

An he is employed by the club as their PRO -right? Sounds like he's doing his job alright!

pineapple stu

12/05/2006, 1:03 PM

Nope, he's employed by Derry City now...

Just said I'd bring factual context to a speculative post.

(Think about the fact that we have a full gym, astro pitches, training pitches, etc, etc... all to hand)

LeixlipRed

12/05/2006, 1:29 PM

but what about the actual training methods, the workouts themselves? anyone ive ever talked to who has experience of clubs both here and Ireland would tell you that the actual training itself is better in England. UCDs facilities might come close but do the coaches and specialists have that knowledge of tactics and training methods needed at the very top?

pineapple stu

12/05/2006, 3:32 PM

I covered that in my previous post. I didn't intend to say they were, just to rebuke the point on the facilities and the player treatment.

Paddy Garcia

12/05/2006, 3:49 PM

Slash/ED

12/05/2006, 4:34 PM

You have a point, though I have to say that it did no harm to Kinsella and Finnan.

Equally the reverse didn't harm Kevin Doyle or even McGrath and others.

Paddy Garcia

12/05/2006, 4:40 PM

Equally the reverse didn't harm Kevin Doyle or even McGrath and others.

Did Doyle & McGrath go over, come back & then go over again ? I did not think they did?

pete

12/05/2006, 6:30 PM

Did Doyle & McGrath go over, come back & then go over again ? I did not think they did?

Doyle never played in the UK before the eL. In fact I think he was the first U21 international never to have played abroad.

Doyle should be the poster boy for advertising the eL as hes a football household name already, probabky not known by non-football types though.

John83

12/05/2006, 6:35 PM

Doyle never played in the UK before the eL. In fact I think he was the first U21 international never to have played abroad.
I'm a bit dubious about that. I'm sure some of UCD's former U21s would have beaten him to it. Maybe not in a competitive game though, but there are probably some other examples from around the league. Can any statos out there confirm?

pineapple stu

12/05/2006, 6:51 PM

Definitely. Clive Delaney, Ciaran Martyn, Jason Sherlock, Mick O'Byrne... All would have joined UCD at about 17 from schoolboy clubs.

gustavo

12/05/2006, 7:25 PM

Conor O Grady too for Sligo Rovers was capped whilst playing for us.

Roverstillidie

12/05/2006, 10:55 PM

o for god sake will you ever get off your EL loving high chair. you miss the point completely. Its simply not up for debate. The coaching standards in Britain and the training facilities are much better.

when did i mention the el?

the reality is up to 14/15 we are quite literally as good as the italians at producing talent. then what happens to the best and most ambitious? they are farmed overseas to sink or swim, at which point their personality type and ability to cope alone becomes the dominant reason for success or failure in britain. not ablility, not fitness. not will to win.

name me one other country that allows this to happen? seriously:confused:

why do the FAI block EL clubs set up academies to harness the talent? because the likes of devlin who personally profit from this situation are in charge. its a farce. why not send them overseas at 19, not 12? why the hell dont the FAIlure prohibit under 18's from leaving. or do what the norwegans do, you have to be domestically based to play for norway up to and including u21.

pros training in the el train at the exact same level and pace as similar caliber teams in britian.

livehead, less of the white mans burden please.

Forever Dreamin

12/05/2006, 11:13 PM

nonsense, we produce the best schoolboy sides in europe.

and besides, how many other countries with similar standard leagues/underage set ups let their players go for free to another country?
So what are you proposing - that no irish kid can leave the country if the're a good footballing prospect?? Get real The FAI have no control over this whatsoever. HAve you heard of freedom of speech / right to travel etc, etc.

Ask 100 people if they had a son who had a chance of making it in Britain or Europe would they let their son go? How many will say yes?? Thats the problem... it's the public perception and there's very little the FAI or EL can do to change that until some club makes it thru to the QF of the Champions League or somewhere close to that level

gustavo

13/05/2006, 12:58 AM

So what are you proposing - that no irish kid can leave the country if the're a good footballing prospect?? Get real The FAI have no control over this whatsoever. HAve you heard of freedom of speech / right to travel etc, etc.

Ask 100 people if they had a son who had a chance of making it in Britain or Europe would they let their son go? How many will say yes?? Thats the problem... it's the public perception and there's very little the FAI or EL can do to change that until some club makes it thru to the QF of the Champions League or somewhere close to that level

I dont think thats what he is proposing but it is ludacious that lot of the schoolboy teams are mere breeding grounds for British clubs , There should be a viable ALTERNATIVE for those schoolboys that dont go over . Oh and i know its pedantic but last time i checked us and Britain were already in Europe:o

Paddy Garcia

13/05/2006, 8:47 AM

why the hell dont the FAIlure prohibit under 18's from leaving. or do what the norwegans do, you have to be domestically based to play for norway up to and including u21.

...after 5 years they would then qualify to play for England.

Paddy Garcia

13/05/2006, 8:49 AM

Equally the reverse didn't harm Kevin Doyle or even McGrath and others.

..that particluar point was about the merits of players dropping down divisions in England, not delaying a move abroad.

Forever Dreamin

13/05/2006, 10:17 AM

I dont think thats what he is proposing but it is ludacious that lot of the schoolboy teams are mere breeding grounds for British clubs , There should be a viable ALTERNATIVE for those schoolboys that dont go over . Oh and i know its pedantic but last time i checked us and Britain were already in Europe:o

I agree that there should be a viable alternative and I believe there is in that the UCD scolarship scheme is one such, its convincing the parents of the kids otherwise and you right we are in europe!!

pete

13/05/2006, 11:06 AM

Plastic Paddy

13/05/2006, 11:37 AM

You have a point, though I have to say that it did no harm to Kinsella and Finnan.

The latter of whom was merely born in Ireland and is to all intents and purposes a product of the English system.

:ball: PP

$Leon$

13/05/2006, 12:27 PM

As mentioned above the Norwegians block the sale of young underage players abroad before their 18th birthday. It is legal for them & doesn't seem to be doing any harm.

Don't think this would be possible for us to do. Seen as were part of the EU means we can't restrict the movement of workers.

John83

13/05/2006, 2:00 PM

HAve you heard of freedom of speech / right to travel etc, etc. I don't really feel like pedantry today, but freedom of speech has nothing whatsoever to do with free movement of labour within the EU.

The only people who could institute something like this would be FIFA, and they'd have to do it to everyone. "Thou shalt not field a player not eligiable to play for your FA unless he is over 18" - or something in that ballpark. They're moving towards that by forcing clubs to have more domestic talent - which will reduce imports eventually.

Forever Dreamin

13/05/2006, 2:02 PM

What apparent football fans here dismiss the eL so easily it shows the ignorance & what clubs up & down this country are up against. Saying that an eL club has to make the CL 1/4 final to be taken seriously is ludicrous. What next, raise the bar to the semi final?

As mentioned above the Norwegians block the sale of young underage players abroad before their 18th birthday. It is legal for them & doesn't seem to be doing any harm.

You have misinterpereted my quote, it is the view of the majority of Irish people, not my view, and if I had a son in that postition I would do everything I could to prevent him going abroad till he was at least finished school.

Roverstillidie

13/05/2006, 5:06 PM

Don't think this would be possible for us to do. Seen as were part of the EU means we can't restrict the movement of workers.

you can easily restrict the movement of child workers....

Paddy Garcia

13/05/2006, 5:30 PM

The latter of whom was merely born in Ireland and is to all intents and purposes a product of the English system.

:ball: PP

But nonetheless demonstrates that you can drop down a few divisions and climb back up again and even win European cup and an FA cup medals.

Forever Dreamin

13/05/2006, 8:15 PM

you can easily restrict the movement of child workers....

You cant, only the parents can, you can limit the hours they work. Another problem is a UEFA or FIFA rule ( dont know which) which states that kids can not play for a club that is more than 90 minutes travelling from their home. This law can be enforced in a juridisdiction but not internationally and once the kid signs for say utd they move close to the training ground, but utd cant sign an english kid from say newcastle!!

Anyway the reality is until the vast majority of parents believe it's in the kids interest to stay in Ireland till 18 or whatever age it wont happen.

Plastic Paddy

13/05/2006, 8:23 PM

But nonetheless demonstrates that you can drop down a few divisions and climb back up again and even win European cup and an FA cup medals.

He (Finnan) started at the bottom; at Welling United, then of the Conference. Thence to Notts County, Birmingham, Fulham and you know the rest. No dropping down (well, none for which he was responsible). In fact, as the story goes, he even entertained notions of an England call-up before the green carpet was rolled out. :eek: Who'd have thunk it, eh...?

:ball: PP

Roverstillidie

14/05/2006, 4:14 PM

You cant, only the parents can, you can limit the hours they work. Another problem is a UEFA or FIFA rule ( dont know which) which states that kids can not play for a club that is more than 90 minutes travelling from their home. This law can be enforced in a juridisdiction but not internationally and once the kid signs for say utd they move close to the training ground, but utd cant sign an english kid from say newcastle!!

Anyway the reality is until the vast majority of parents believe it's in the kids interest to stay in Ireland till 18 or whatever age it wont happen.

says who? name one other country that allows it to happen? seriously!