Dream ticket' would not stop Bohs groundsharing

[thejollyrodger]

Dream ticket' would not stop Bohs groundsharing
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BOHEMIANS secretary Gerry Cuffe has not ruled the possibility of groundsharing even if the club were to move to a proposed new 10,000-capacity stadium on the outskirts of Dublin.

"We have kept the FAI fully appraised in terms of where we are with this process," he said yesterday.

"They are aware that all of the options are going to be put to the members on Thursday night. But I am quite sure that the f the club, if we do ultimately end up with this facility and this stadium, would look favourably on taking in somebody on a groundsharing basis in the future. We are certainly not ruling that out."

The developers proposal to build a new stadium in Castleknock and also furnish the club with a substantial cash sum has certainly added some extra spice to the members' EGM.

The deal, which involves the building of a state-of-the-art arena close to the M50 toll plaza, together with a lump sum believed to be in the region of €26m, will need to get the backing of 75% of members present at the meeting, though, in order to go through.

"There are three possibilities at this stage," said Cuffe. "One is that we stay where we are, batten down the hatches and try to survive. Two, we go along with the groundshare proposal with Shelbourne, or three we go down the new Stadium route.

"Ultimately the members will decide which route we go, but I think that when people are fully informed they will vote with their conscience and with the best interests of the club at heart."

On paper, the deal looks a dream ticket for Bohemians in that they are having a stadium built for them and pretty much realising the full value of Dalymount Park in the process.

Of course, planning issues both in Phibsboro and at the site of the new stadium, will dictate if the deal is viable, but the fact that the developers have agreed to hand over a non refundable €2m deposit if the deal goes through, shows they have evaluated such issues.

Contravention of the government's and FAI's groundshare initiative would mean that Bohemians could lose any funding in future.

Eoin Dunne

Why not build the stadium in Abbotstown ?? That way we can have a proper 20,000 all seater stadium for the two clubs. best of luck to bohs whatever happens(choke).

[bohs til i die]

because we wouldnt own the freehold in Abbotstown, whereas we would in the proposed new site.

Why would we roll in with the FAI's plan to save Shels when we dont have to?

[CollegeTillIDie]

But Gerry Cuffe has pointed out that groundsharing could take place at the new site in Castleknock anyway.
This bit about funding being denied to Bohemians if they go to their own site, is a bit sinister.:(

The government of this country owes the game of association football big time. Having torpedoed Eircom Park, and having provided no National Stadium at Abbotstown, it is time this government delivered to the game. Funding Lansdowne Road is a step in the right direction but that is also mainly an assistance to the game of rugby . Nothing wrong with that, the IRFU has been of great help to the game of football in this country and I am delighted that both games will benefit from the funding of the new stadium at IRFUHQ.

So any new stadium being built for and on behalf of Bohemians should be partly funded. And if Shelbourne get to groundshare that rows in with the government plans , only the location is different. Is that such a big deal? Besides if Bohemians youth and schoolboy players are going to use the new academy at Abbotstown , wouldn't it be smart that the first team was a lot closer in say Castleknock? Maybe the LOI first teamers could train at Abbotstown too, Shelbourne and Bohs could each use the facilites

[Dr.Nightdub]

If Bohs let Shels rent the new ground off them, that'd still be ground-sharing. So far, no-one - not the government, not Genesis, not the FAI - has defined "ground-sharing" as meaning ONLY "shared ownership of a ground" as opposed to "shared use of a ground" - they can't, cos Rovers won't own Tallaght.

[chippie0001]

Put simply I don't think many Bohs fans would have minded building in Abbotstown and sharing with Shels. Most of us had no issue with groundshare and that, it was just the deal that the FAI tried to force on was a joke.

In my view this is a fantastic deal for us, a brand new 10,000 seater stadium and enough money if used right to dominate football for a long time.

[chippie0001]

But Gerry Cuffe has pointed out that groundsharing could take place at the new site in Castleknock anyway.

Whats the definition of groundsharing? We have no bother letting anyone rent from us. Actually I would have no bother letting Shels buy half the new stadium of us, but doubt they have €10m spare. ;)

As a betting man I would think Shels could well end up in Tallaght now with Rovers as there are not many other alternatives.

[A face]

One thing about the new ground .... is it in Bohs interest to share with Shels straight away ... i mean if you move out there, wouldn't you want to get a foothold in that area first, instead of splitting the market with Shels?

Is it inside or outside the M50 ??

[chippie0001]

One thing about the new ground .... is it in Bohs interest to share with Shels straight away ... i mean if you move out there, wouldn't you want to get a foothold in that area first, instead of splitting the market with Shels?

Is it inside or outside the M50 ??

I guess its outside the M50 if I am getting your meaning but its the field right beside the M50 at the toll bridge. Its 5 miles by car from Dalymount as it stands.

[thejollyrodger]

whats the public transport going to be like ? At least we know the metro is serving lisadell and abbotstown

[chippie0001]

whats the public transport going to be like ? At least we know the metro is serving lisadell and abbotstown
There is a bus stop about 10 mins walk away, a train station about 20 mins walk away. The entire area is being developed at the moment so when or if we get there I would think there will be closer services. Across the road from the site is all zoned for houses so I would assume that as these are built more bus routes will come in.

[A face]

I guess its outside the M50 if I am getting your meaning but its the field right beside the M50 at the toll bridge. Its 5 miles by car from Dalymount as it stands.

Yeah, thats what i mean ... it would make a different at 6.30 on friday night, thats why i was asking. Its sounds too good to be true to be honest, Irish football nevers gets a break like that !!

How much will the developer end up getting for it?

How much would Bohs get if they sold it themselves?

[chippie0001]

How much will the developer end up getting for it?

How much would Bohs get if they sold it themselves?

No idea on either sorry. Would get more if we sold it but then would never get a decent site etc.

In a way irish football is not getting a break, its a property play pure and simple and we just happen to be in the right place. Being a members club and people 100 years ago having foresight stood to us in the long run I guess.

[gael353]

I read about this development in the last few days and cant help but feel that bohs are getting short changed. 31 million isnt enough. A figure close to 50 would be a good deal and i dont like the idea of building half a stadium "the top tier can be added at a later date" kinda ****! They (the developers) either build ye a 20000 seater stadium or f85k off!

[chippie0001]

I read about this development in the last few days and cant help but feel that bohs are getting short changed. 31 million isnt enough. A figure close to 50 would be a good deal and i dont like the idea of building half a stadium "the top tier can be added at a later date" kinda ****! They (the developers) either build ye a 20000 seater stadium or f85k off!

Where is €31m coming from, you are way off the mark.

[thejollyrodger]

a club with european ambitions would. Close off the top tier for league games :)

[BohsFans]

BOHEMIANS secretary Gerry Cuffe

Very poor reporting! :rolleyes:

Cuffe isn't even on the board anymore.

[pete]

Why would any league of Ireland Club want a 20,000 seater ground ?

No dublin will ever require a 20k stadium. One their big advantages is that can wander down to Lansdwne Road for any potential big european game that will need bigger than 10k.

Given how poor attendances have been in the last 3-4 years its debatable if any dublin club needs greater than 5k as someone living here i don't see any eL football culture in the wider city. 22k at Lansdwne for Deportivo yet less than 2k for next Shels game.

[Poor Student]

Why would any league of Ireland Club want a 20,000 seater ground ?

I think it would be in Dublin's and this country's benefit to have such a stadium to hold cup finals, underage internationals, the odd European game of high interest and perhaps some rugby too?

[A face]

I read about this development in the last few days and cant help but feel that bohs are getting short changed. 31 million isnt enough. A figure close to 50 would be a good deal and i dont like the idea of building half a stadium "the top tier can be added at a later date" kinda ****! They (the developers) either build ye a 20000 seater stadium or f85k off!


Where is €31m coming from, you are way off the mark.

Is it up or down though ??

It does seem to me that Bohs are getting shafted. I mean you are saying that its cause you would have a good site in Castleknock .... whats stopping you buying it yourselves ? I mean why do you have to go with the first offer you get ... there are other developers out there aswell.

Is €50,000,000 all you would get for the site ?? I actually think you'd get more given some of the stupid money that is going now on property, same prices as London ffs.

I would have also thought that Dalyer, givens its location is an easy sell no matter what you build on it, so developing on it is a dream come through. Add in Bohs throwing away a few million and there and its the sale of the century.

Thats what it seems like to me anyway !!



I think it would be in Dublin's and this country's benefit to have such a stadium to hold cup finals, underage internationals, the odd European game of high interest and perhaps some rugby too?

Exactly ... no harm in having it that big. How many times has Tolka seemed too small recently.

[pineapple stu]

There just isn't enough in that to keep a 20,000 seater ground open. First off, underage internationals are grand in eL grounds - most are OK in Buckley or Belfield Park, while you have Tolka and Dalyer for the bigger ones. For rugby, you have Donnybrook and the RDS, so there's also no need. That leaves Cup finals and the odd European game of high interest - not enough to bulid a stadium for, really. Ireland doesn't need a 20,000 seater ground at the moment. If the Government are prepared to bulid one, just split the money 22 ways and give it to each league club to improve their current grounds. Much better way to spend the money.

[bohs til i die]

Is it up or down though ??

It does seem to me that Bohs are getting shafted. I mean you are saying that its cause you would have a good site in Castleknock .... whats stopping you buying it yourselves ? I mean why do you have to go with the first offer you get ... there are other developers out there aswell.

Is €50,000,000 all you would get for the site ?? I actually think you'd get more given some of the stupid money that is going now on property, same prices as London ffs.

I would have also thought that Dalyer, givens its location is an easy sell no matter what you build on it, so developing on it is a dream come through. Add in Bohs throwing away a few million and there and its the sale of the century.

Thats what it seems like to me anyway !!

Exactly ... no harm in having it that big. How many times has Tolka seemed too small recently.


The land we are looking at moving to is owned by the developer. He is offering to build the stadium to be ready for us to move into before we hand over Dalymount.

The land value around Phibsboro is currently somewhere in the region of €10,000,000 per acre and we own a touch over 5 acres. The deal sees us getting a figure close to what gael353 says we getting but that is cash on top of the completed stadium. The stadium would cost close to €20,000,000 including the value of the land so there is the 50 million gael353 cites as reasonable.

A FACE, you havent a clue of what you are talking about. To do this ourselves, acquire a site, get the PP and then build it would cost a lot more then what we have on offer currently for a site so close to Dalymount. Also, who says this is the first offer we have received?

Tolka has only be seen as too small ONCE when Shels played Deportivo. It was far from full for the Setanta cup final recently and Shels got a crowd of 7000 for the Lille game.

gael353, we will be getting a fully completed stadium, not a half built stadium. in 2004 Shels got 24000 against Deportivo but less then 1000 a week later against Derry. What need is there for 20000 seats?

[A face]

A FACE, you havent a clue of what you are talking about. To do this ourselves, acquire a site, get the PP and then build it would cost a lot more then what we have on offer currently for a site so close to Dalymount. Also, who says this is the first offer we have received?

To be fair BTID, where did claim to be an authority on it, i added to the discussion. Cop on will you, what is the harm in looking at what the opinions could, should, were, will and what you want them to be, its a message board. Relax the head fella.

Anyway ... back to the point, whiles it a great deal, i'm just saying that to the guy on the street, Bohs could be losing out on a bit. The land may be valued at 50 but its return after development could be multiples of that (again i wouldn't exactly know exactly but i'm just putting it out there) ..... is that not something that any developer would jump at?

On the offers that were received, i'm not a member of Bohs so i wouldn't be privy to that info. This is the only offer i have heard of. Would there be more offers being received now that the info is public? Who knows and who knows what would become of them.

[chippie0001]

Of course we are losing out by selling to a developer as he will make money from building appartments and selling them. However we don't have the expertise to do that, plus all the costs of getting Dalymount rezoned, pp granted, building costs.

Also there were many offers for the site and none came close to this one. Mianly because the other developers had trouble getting a site anywhere in Dublin close to Dalymount for a reasonable cost. We would suffer the same fate if we tried to do that, especially if people knew we had money.

All we can do is try and get what we think is a good deal here and now and go from there. You are right though, we have to make sure we are not screwed over here, thats where I worry. :(

[A face]

All we can do is try and get what we think is a good deal here and now and go from there. You are right though, we have to make sure we are not screwed over here, thats where I worry. :(

That basically what i'm saying .... again i haven't a clue on this but, if the site is 50 then it is a very very reserved guess to say that at least another 50 could be made from the development of it.

That is alot of cash imo .... i mean, if they build the new place for 20 + another 30 + plus the new site, then they're still completely made up with that deal. And lets be honest, if they only make 50 from developing it, then they might aswell throw the towel in now.

[gael353]

Where is €31m coming from, you are way off the mark.

I read it in the star on sunday. So is it far off the mark? Their are GAA clubs in limerick being offered 9/10 milion for their pitches when in fact there worth about 15 to a housing developer. Bohs are shafted imo

[BohsFans]

I read it in the star on sunday. So is it far off the mark? Their are GAA clubs in limerick being offered 9/10 milion for their pitches when in fact there worth about 15 to a housing developer. Bohs are shafted imo

your very gullible.

Don't believe everything you read in the star on Sunday!

Yeah we've been shafted :rolleyes:

[gael353]

Well they did have quotes from certain Bohs officials and had all the plans and other inside stuff. I agree with you that you cant always belive what ye read but lads when it comes to shafting, Bohs dont have the best of records when it comes to land deals now do they? :rolleyes:

[dcfcsteve]

I see nothing wrong with what Bohs are proposing to do.

In truth - they would maximise the value of Dalymount, with only a small amunt of effort, if they teamed-up with someone to get plannign permission on the site before selling it. The biggest gain in value for the least amount of work is the difference before and after PP is secured.

The down-side of this is that firsttly, Bohs are a football club, not a property developer, so would have limited knowledge on this. And secondly, a large site like Dalymount could be redeveloped in numerous different ways. Any purchaser would rather work their own planning than take on planning with a site.

Bottom line is that Bohs could maximise the resale value of Dalymount by getting planning before they sold it. But in reality, they probably wouldn't know where to start on this, so the Option 3 on the table is a very suitable alternative.

[BohsFans]

Well they did have quotes from certain Bohs officials and had all the plans and other inside stuff. I agree with you that you cant always belive what ye read but lads when it comes to shafting, Bohs dont have the best of records when it comes to land deals now do they? :rolleyes:

were figures quoted from Bohs officials?

[BohsFans]

Bohs dont have the best of records when it comes to land deals now do they? :rolleyes:

go on.........

[OneRedArmy]

I read it in the star on sunday. So is it far off the mark? Their are GAA clubs in limerick being offered 9/10 milion for their pitches when in fact there worth about 15 to a housing developer. Bohs are shafted imoHere`s a hint, basic economic theory: things are worth different amounts to different people.

As chippie has pointed out, unless Bohs have hidden construction & property development IP, a site will always be more valuable to a developer than the current users.

As for E50m being undervalued, I suspect you're comparing it with the E230m in Ballsbridge for the Jury`s site. Different kettle of fish I`m afraid!

[Breifne]

I read it in the star on sunday. So is it far off the mark? Their are GAA clubs in limerick being offered 9/10 milion for their pitches when in fact there worth about 15 to a housing developer. Bohs are shafted imo

Lets look at it for a second, every business in the country aims to make money, why should a property developer be any different. Lets not forget that he has to actually put the houses on site, and market the development and then sell it. If he can negotiate a suitable price and can then make a profit is this not good business sense.

You can't hold that against someone. who cares if this is at the expense of a private individual, football club or a religious order or something. The key word in the whole process is NEGOTIATE. at all stages its possible to say NO.

At the moment Dalymount Park is a liability for Bohemians, if they don't sell and move out, they must maintain and develop the ground, with little or no cash reserves this may pose a problem. If someone is prepared to build a new stadium (which will only require maintainance) and set up a nice stock pile of cash (well in eL standards) its a win-win situation. So what if they then get their cut.

[thejollyrodger]

but we need 30,000 sized stadia around the country if we want to hold the european championships !

a 20,000 seater groundshare with two clubs would work well.. of course it would be empty a lot of the time but we could just close off the top tier. The public is more likely to attend a proper stadium than a minging old Dalyer

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ok justification for a 20,000 seater capacity stadium in Dublin
1/ All Dublin EL clubs who qualify for Europe could play their more attractive European Club competition fixtures there.
2/ All Bohs v Rovers Derbies could be held there :D
3/ All other Dublin Derbies liable to attract greater than 10,000 could be played there too.
4/ Mickey Mouse friendlies V English opposition being hosted by any Dublin Club could be played there.
5/ Any club building or rebuilding a stadium in the Dublin area could be hosted there while the building work takes place.
6/ It could host some international matches if we remain in the doldrums.
(i.e 4th or worse seeds , qualifying for nothing etc)
7/ It could be used in the summer for one or two open air gigs!

[A face]

Lets look at it for a second, every business in the country aims to make money, why should a property developer be any different. Lets not forget that he has to actually put the houses on site, and market the development and then sell it. If he can negotiate a suitable price and can then make a profit is this not good business sense.

Yeah, theres nothing wrong with making money is just how much or more precisely, too much is the problem .... percentage wise. Just because a property developer who Bohs dont owe any favours wants to make money doesn't mean they should stand to lose out on potential. Why can Bohs get a percentage of the profit or something? Again i dunno but why should there be a problem in questioning this?


You can't hold that against someone. who cares if this is at the expense of a private individual, football club or a religious order or something. The key word in the whole process is NEGOTIATE. at all stages its possible to say NO.

Valid point ... its actually up to Bohs to get their spoke in. If they dont ask/push/barter/whatever then nothing changes


At the moment Dalymount Park is a liability for Bohemians, if they don't sell and move out, they must maintain and develop the ground, with little or no cash reserves this may pose a problem. If someone is prepared to build a new stadium (which will only require maintainance) and set up a nice stock pile of cash (well in eL standards) its a win-win situation. So what if they then get their cut.

Agreed .... win win !!

[dcfcsteve]

Ok justification for a 20,000 seater capacity stadium in Dublin
1/ All Dublin EL clubs who qualify for Europe could play their more attractive European Club competition fixtures there.
2/ All Bohs v Rovers Derbies could be held there :D
3/ All other Dublin Derbies liable to attract greater than 10,000 could be played there too.
4/ Mickey Mouse friendlies V English opposition being hosted by any Dublin Club could be played there.
5/ Any club building or rebuilding a stadium in the Dublin area could be hosted there while the building work takes place.
6/ It could host some international matches if we remain in the doldrums.
(i.e 4th or worse seeds , qualifying for nothing etc)
7/ It could be used in the summer for one or two open air gigs!

If you'd added 'viewing platform to observe Haley's Comet' to that list it would've made it complete.... :D

Dublin derbies attracting over 10,000 people ??? When was the last ?!?!

The odd friendly, once-in-a-blue-moon stop-gaps for clubs having stadia developed to such an extent that they can't play at home (i.e. currently no EL club, even though many have developments under-way), international matches if we start doing really sh!te, Bon Jovi and Neil Diamond in August, the one big euro draw that a Dublin club gets every 3-5 years.

It would be insane to put a penny into building a stadium to cater for the above level of demand.

[A face]

If you'd added 'viewing platform to observe Haley's Comet' to that list it would've made it complete.... :D

Dublin derbies attracting over 10,000 people ??? When was the last ?!?!

Last Dub derby 10,000+ ... Bohs were getting 6,000 a few years back and add Rovers in there and clsoe enough i'd say.


It would be insane to put a penny into building a stadium to cater for the above level of demand.

Thing is, they wouldn't have to put a penny in technically, by that i mean it wont effect their cash flow, it'll be there. Maintaining it is the thing alright though.

Its a good idea to have at least a decent 10,000 no question of that .... 15,000 would be good aswell and not insane. Depending on how Bohs would approach this, a 20,000 would be good if they can work on filling it with other events.

[Raheny Red]

but we need 30,000 sized stadia around the country if we want to hold the european championships !

a 20,000 seater groundshare with two clubs would work well.. of course it would be empty a lot of the time but we could just close off the top tier. The public is more likely to attend a proper stadium than a minging old Dalyer


Top tier :eek: :confused: so we just leave the middle and bottom tiers open then :p

[Poor Student]

but we need 30,000 sized stadia around the country if we want to hold the european championships !


You can only have two stadia per city in a European Championship bid. We'd be aiming at Croker and the new Landsdowne in that event.

[kdjaC]

X marks the spot (http://homepage.eircom.net/~kdjac/STA.JPG)


Proposed place for the ground, please dont play your games on friday nights, jesus the traffic there is crazy as is :D




kdjac

[Student Mullet]

X marks the spot (http://homepage.eircom.net/~kdjac/STA.JPG)


Proposed place for the ground, please dont play your games on friday nights, jesus the traffic there is crazy as is :D




kdjac
Bohs should set up six or seven entrances and charge 1.75 for passing through. They'd make a killing.

[pineapple stu]

Last Dub derby 10,000+ ... Bohs were getting 6,000 a few years back and add Rovers in there and clsoe enough i'd say.
The issue was derbies over 10,000. 6,000 isn't over 10,000. All Dublin derbies to date have been comfortably staged in the respective clubs' grounds. That's the whole point of them having a ground in the first place.


Thing is, they wouldn't have to put a penny in technically, by that i mean it wont effect their cash flow, it'll be there. Maintaining it is the thing alright though.
Eh?!:confused: Where's the money to build the ground in the first place going to come from?! That money would be better spent elsewhere, such as upgrading all 22 grounds. There is no need for a 20,000 capacity ground in Ireland.

[drinkfeckarse]

It'll cost a lot more to run a 20,000 seater stadium rather than a 10,000 so why build it if it's only going to be full once every so often.

10,000 seems adequate to me.

[Block G Raptor]

If you build it they will come. this could be the breakthrough the league has been waiting for. a two teir state of the art stadium may just motivate the barstoolers to go to a game or two, once they've seen that the eL is not shyte they'll be back!!

[paudie]

If you build it they will come. this could be the breakthrough the league has been waiting for. a two teir state of the art stadium may just motivate the barstoolers to go to a game or two, once they've seen that the eL is not shyte they'll be back!!

Surely they saw the EL wasn't ****e when 25k saw Shels play well against Depor after beating Hadjuk.

How many of them came back for league games though?

[A face]

The issue was derbies over 10,000. 6,000 isn't over 10,000. All Dublin derbies to date have been comfortably staged in the respective clubs' grounds. That's the whole point of them having a ground in the first place.

6000 Bohs and, i dunno 3000 Rovers .... alright 9000 but there you go. And lads .... when a club is forecasting should it factor in growth, improvement, expansion .... in the hope that more fans would come. Clubs should always look at increasing fanbase etc.


Eh?!:confused: Where's the money to build the ground in the first place going to come from?! That money would be better spent elsewhere, such as upgrading all 22 grounds. There is no need for a 20,000 capacity ground in Ireland.

I was on about this developer buildin Bohs new ground, Bohs would just turn up when it done and thats that kinda thing. If you are on about the gov and building a stadium etc. then i agree ... develop eL grounds first.


Now ..... having seen where the ground is ...... i think forget it ..... its a mess. Right next to the motorway .... OF COURSE they want to get rid of it ..... what else could they put in there ? The only other thing they could put there is a graveyard ffs. That plot of land is like a bad smell for them, they are jumping at the chance to get rifd of it ..... resell value if Bohs had to move .... wait for it ...... are you waiting ....... you guessed it ...... ZERO

I think once again we've found out that eL club will never get a free meal. How much room is there for parking, development, training pitches, anything.

Bohs bars do fairly well at the moment .... who'll be dropping in for a quick pint in the new place ... not on your life. People AVOID like the plague that part of Dublin ..... people have developed a psychotic hatred for that plaza. That is probably the worst place in Dublin to put something that relies on people coming out on supporting them through thick and thin.

[fbtn]

On the surface, it sounds like good business for all involved.

Very similar to what we are doing. Developer pays up front by building the new stadium for us and when it is completed we move into the new ground and they develop Finn Park.

[Poor Student]

How many of them came back for league games though?

More than you think. How many of those 24k were fans of other clubs who came to support an eL side in Europe?

[Raheny Red]

More than you think. How many of those 24k were fans of other clubs who came to support an eL side in Europe?

There was a lot of eL support that evening! But on the other hand there was many barstoolers as well.

[pineapple stu]

6000 Bohs and, i dunno 3000 Rovers .... alright 9000 but there you go.
Way over the top. About 5000 is the tops for Bohs-Rovers in recent years. There's room for twice that in Dalyer and Tolka, so no need for a 20,000 capacity ground.