Dream ticket' would not stop Bohs groundsharing [Archive] - Page 2

CharlesThompson

02/05/2006, 5:09 PM

Our stadium at present has 8,000 seats on three sides. Three of the four sides are falling down. The proposal is for a 10,000 seater stadium although I think something in the region of 12,500 seats would be perfect for the reason that it would be able to hold FAI Cup Final Games that Tolka held previously with 10,000 seats. It could of course hold B-Internationals seeing as they are about to be brought back into vogue, it could hold outdoor concerts etc. and God forbid we can actually do something useful with the money if we made it through a couple of rounds of Europe and landed a decent side, we would be most able to play the game at home!

Of course I understand that we would not come near to filling 10,000 seats in a normal league campaign however we were getting gates of between 5,000 and 7,000 only a few years ago when our players were actually earning their wages and we were winning some silverware. I think a state of the art facility will encourage a lot of these punters back and with a few quid invested in the playing side, we may be in a position to retain this support over a longer period of time. Remember - Bums on seats is money.

Roverstillidie

02/05/2006, 5:14 PM

Way over the top. About 5000 is the tops for Bohs-Rovers in recent years. There's room for twice that in Dalyer and Tolka, so no need for a 20,000 capacity ground.

cup semi a few years ago in pox park had 12,000.

next year in tolka wasnt all that far behind. it does happen, bearing in mind the 3/4 games a season has impacted on the crowd

Vitruvian Man

02/05/2006, 5:23 PM

Dalymount is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Economics 101.

Dublin clubs couldn't get 10k+ at a none CL game if they gave away free tickets.

eL clubs need new bigger stadia for the facilties that would bring in & not the extra seats.

I reckon a Bohs V Rovers cup final would get well more than 10k at it especially this year.

But that's beside the point. This thread has dissolved into an utterly pointless debate. The fact of the matter is that Bohemians have no use for a stadium greater than 10'000. It is 5 times our average support when we are doing badly and 2 times our average support when we do well. There is plenty of scope to increase our core support massively without burdoning the infrastructure and should the unlikely event occur that 10'000 people want to see Bohs (or any Irish team) week-in week-out then the proposed new stadium is capable of being expanded to 20'000. Any glamour games that bring the barstoolers out, like Shels vrs Depor, can be moved to Landsdowne.

After that, Bohs have no obligation to cater for B Internationals Cup finals or any other For-the-Good-of-football type stuff. Not a penny of public money is going into the ground so we can have it exactly the way we want it without any guilty conscience. If this happens for us, and Droghedas new stadium comes on line, it looks like there will be plenty of competition between modern facilities to hold the flagship games like cup finals B internationals etc. Not to mention what happens in Tallaght which is still up in the air I suppose.

pete

02/05/2006, 5:38 PM

Better to have 10k stadium with 2k ticketless people queuing outside for the odd big game than 20k stadium that has 8k seats empty even for big game.

A face

02/05/2006, 5:49 PM

Better to have 10k stadium with 2k ticketless people queuing outside for the odd big game than 20k stadium that has 8k seats empty even for big game.

Yeah, suppose you're right.

But on the new stadium .... right next to the toll plaza .... crazy idea. Bohs could buy a site and build themselves in a better area for cheaper right now.

Stupid move imo .... the worst traffic problem in Europe and Bohs are moving right next to the worst part of it ?? I cannot figure that out. To say that theres no othr developer out there that cant do better actually seems mad to me. Have Bohs even asked around? I mean have Bohs even investigated themselves, i dont mean just spoke to people who arrived at their doorstep.

The one really good asset they have, they are getting rid of to go to a place where people cant get to? That developer cant believe his luck on this one .... he builds a stadium on a dud plot of land that no one would ever want and they get on of the most valuable pieces of land in the City with unbelievably massive potenial ..... and see nothing wrong with that?? :eek: :eek:

bohs til i die

02/05/2006, 6:47 PM

Stupid move imo .... the worst traffic problem in Europe and Bohs are moving right next to the worst part of it ?? I cannot figure that out. To say that theres no othr developer out there that cant do better actually seems mad to me. Have Bohs even asked around? I mean have Bohs even investigated themselves, i dont mean just spoke to people who arrived at their doorstep.

how do you know we havent. I suggest you shut up talking sh1te about something you know absolutely nothing about

A face

02/05/2006, 6:49 PM

how do you know we havent.

Have ye ?

Simple question ..... 'yes' or 'no' will do ... what say you ??

Roverstillidie

02/05/2006, 7:16 PM

Have ye ?

Simple question ..... 'yes' or 'no' will do ... what say you ??

come on face, even i know they did their homework here and it wasnt the only offer on the table. the reality is someone is swapping bohs a completed stadium, €2m sweetner cash and up to €10m later for the site of a stadium they have let fall into decay and cant even begin to afford to bring up to scratch.

if the only thing wrong is the locations lack of public transport AT THE MOMENT, id say the gypos have fluked themselves a cracking deal here, beating in mind the sum of their ambition until now was to chose to build a stand for their members and the rest of us were left to rot on an old terrace with no bogs.

rovers established in tallaght and challenging, bohs in their new place challenging, 10,000 is very doable!

the bsc hiding in fields and swimming across the liffey for their lives! cant wait to see that one

CollegeTillIDie

02/05/2006, 8:58 PM

Well you could look at it as worse traffic problem. On the other hand, maybe people would sooner go and watch Bohs than be stuck on the M50 in traffic?
After all they would probably end up at home around the same time :D

bohs til i die

02/05/2006, 9:02 PM

A FACE
yes we have had about 6 different alternatives

RTID,
if you really knew your stuff you'd know some FACTS and not newspaper/message board speculation regarding the cash settlement

Roverstillidie

02/05/2006, 9:14 PM

RTID,
if you really knew your stuff you'd know some FACTS and not newspaper/message board speculation regarding the cash settlement

i'll defend you f�ckers again in a hurry! :p

exactly how wrong am i? and those figures came from a member who was at the meeting......

sonofstan

02/05/2006, 10:08 PM

i'll defend you f�ckers again in a hurry! :p

exactly how wrong am i? and those figures came from a member who was at the meeting......

who obviously knew who s/he was talking to...

A face

03/05/2006, 12:11 AM

A FACE
yes we have had about 6 different alternatives

Alright then ... fair enough so. But then again, i had said all i was ever doing was putting it out there, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Macy

03/05/2006, 7:21 AM

But on the new stadium .... right next to the toll plaza .... crazy idea. Bohs could buy a site and build themselves in a better area for cheaper right now.

Stupid move imo .... the worst traffic problem in Europe and Bohs are moving right next to the worst part of it ?? I cannot figure that out. To say that theres no othr developer out there that cant do better actually seems mad to me. Have Bohs even asked around? I mean have Bohs even investigated themselves, i dont mean just spoke to people who arrived at their doorstep.
The core Bohs support would be coming from out the Navan road, and Blanch next to the new location. I don't think it's quite as bad as it looks from that photo, especially if you were coming from the city centre. Even a switch to 8pm kick offs would allow the traffic to ease off, if it was a problem.

rerun

03/05/2006, 7:28 AM

I think it would be in Dublin's and this country's benefit to have such a stadium to hold cup finals, underage internationals, the odd European game of high interest and perhaps some rugby too?
Sure maybe even the GAH could play in it aswell?;) Just make sure the pitch is big enough...

Buller

03/05/2006, 8:17 AM

Sure maybe even the GAH could play in it aswell?;) Just make sure the pitch is big enough...
:D Good joke! :D

paudie

03/05/2006, 8:59 AM

More than you think. How many of those 24k were fans of other clubs who came to support an eL side in Europe?

But how many new regular fans did Shels get from that Euro run?

OneRedArmy

03/05/2006, 9:45 AM

This thread reflects Irish society at large, every regular Joe fancies themselves as a property speculator and an expert on valuation of development land.

thomas

03/05/2006, 9:58 AM

It seems a geat deal for bohs, especially if they have planned how to avoid traffic jams outside the new ground and make up the lost bar revenue.... I suppose with EUR26m in the bank hey could buy half a dozen pubs....

Ronnie

03/05/2006, 11:14 AM

Best deal available to an Irish club ever - you pay your bills, get a brand new stadium, no debt and 25m in the bank. Bohs could justify a club running costs of 3-5m a year for for next 10 years!

BohDiddley

03/05/2006, 11:30 AM

Bohs could buy a site and build themselves in a better area for cheaper right now.

Stupid move imo .... the worst traffic problem in Europe and Bohs are moving right next to the worst part of it ?? I cannot figure that out. To say that theres no othr developer out there that cant do better actually seems mad to me.
...
The one really good asset they have, they are getting rid of to go to a place where people cant get to? That developer cant believe his luck on this one .... he builds a stadium on a dud plot of land that no one would ever want and they get on of the most valuable pieces of land in the City with unbelievably massive potenial ..... and see nothing wrong with that?? :eek: :eek:

Good post, and thank you for providing it from an objective viewpoint. For a while there I thought I was going mad.
If you build it in a sensible place, they will come. If you build it beside the M50 tolls, it'll be easier to get to Longford, and they will keep watching Sky. These essential problems of access and market are being ignored in the euphoria surrounding this proposal.

sonofstan

03/05/2006, 11:41 AM

Bohs could justify a club running costs of 3-5m a year for for next 10 years!

which is what a lot of us are worried about....... especially if the spending starts before the move

Block G Raptor

03/05/2006, 12:01 PM

Good post, and thank you for providing it from an objective viewpoint. For a while there I thought I was going mad.
If you build it in a sensible place, they will come. If you build it beside the M50 tolls, it'll be easier to get to Longford, and they will keep watching Sky. These essential problems of access and market are being ignored in the euphoria surrounding this proposal.

Lads your making mountains out of motorway's here. the stadium will be in close proximity to the M50 toll but it will not connect to it the entrances will be through Castleknock so no one will be travelling on the M50 unless they already do to get to dalymount in which case the journey will be shorter

A face

03/05/2006, 12:08 PM

This thread reflects Irish society at large, every regular Joe fancies themselves as a property speculator and an expert on valuation of development land.

I'd agree .... everyone claims to be an expert. But aside from that anyone and everyone should not foresake common sense either.

To fail to look at all the permutations is Irish Footballs worst enemy .... to not look at the bigger picture, look at what the general public see, i suppose its that old chestnut "market research" .... it never gets old, every bank manager will still look for it no matter how dated it is.

The sad thing about this situation is .... theres no bank manager, just a lowly property developer with a really big heart and sense of community and civic duty and who is looking for a fast track to heaven with this single act of charity.

How much is it to by that plot of land now ??
Is it on the market even ??

Bohs could justify a club running costs of 3-5m a year for for next 10 years!

Shouldn't EVERY SINGLE irish club be looking to funding themselves depending on their income now ??

Is that not where all the mistakes have been made in recent years ??

I know there have been alot of mistakes, theres no getting away from that but should we be getting to a situation where we are trying to get away from that, to NOT have it happen again. We might have grown used to it, i'll give you that but seeing as it didn't work shouldn't we try something else now, even for the sake of variety.

That aside ..... isn't that how Bohs got into the trouble they are/were in ??
All the members will probably tell you that, they know all too well at this stage. All the guys shouting for Farrellys head the other night would even tell you that.

Ronnie

03/05/2006, 1:08 PM

A face

03/05/2006, 1:27 PM

I repeat the word JUSTIFY. With a significant part of the money invested in income earners the club would be sorted. For example, if you have no debts and 25m all of sudden your asking the banks who wants to sponsor us for 250k per season, we want a loan of 10 million to buy investment propertyetc

Now you're talking ..... if thats the way people are thinking then thats fine.
Still think there is a problem with the site though.

Dr.Nightdub

03/05/2006, 9:14 PM

Not a penny of public money is going into the ground so we can have it exactly the way we want it without any guilty conscience.

Is that for definite? If so, very interesting - it could get us out of a nasty hole if the scenario worked out like this:
- Bohs tell Ollie to shag off
- High Court tells GAA to shag off
- SDCC complete Tallaght
- Rovers move into Tallaght
- Ollie brown-noses SDCC
- Shels move into Tallaght
- Bohs swap the Tramway End for the Motorway End
- government willing to fund two stadia in Dublin
- Richmond turned into a four-sided, all-covered, all-seated ground with 5700 capacity, corporate facilities, a bar, etc with the government getting change out of �6 million (according to our Board)

chippie0001

03/05/2006, 9:18 PM

A face

04/05/2006, 12:05 AM

- Ollie brown-noses SDCC
- Shels move into Tallaght

Are Shels fans happy with that ??
Are Rovers happy with Shels in there?
What club at the moment hails the most support from Tallaght ??
Not one club in north Dublin until Castle Knock ??

Dr.Nightdub

04/05/2006, 12:45 AM

1. Can't imagine Shels fans being too chuffed - the prospect of moving out ot Donabate didn't seem to warm their little hearts when it was floated. We'd probably let them share Richmond for a reasonable rent if that made them feel any better. :D

2. Not that they actually have much of a say in the matter, but at a guess I'd say Rovers' preference for co-tenants is, in descending order, us, Shels and the GAA. They could tolerate us as being no huge threat but the idea of competing with Shels for the favours of the event-junkie public seems to be more of a worry. Sharing with the GAA being an option wouldd make them puke.

3. Rovers, by a long shot.

4. With the airport in the way, I'd say the only northside alternative for Bohs would be somewhere between Swords and Balbriggan. Castleknock isn't that far from Blanch / Navan Road where a lot of their fan base is already from and with the amounts of money that are being bandied about, they could afford to bus the rest in from Phibsboro / Cabra / Finglas.

Saint Tom

04/05/2006, 3:58 PM

3. Rovers, by a long shot.

I'd qualify that one doc. We have a far bigger presence in Tallaght than we realise. I'm from Tallaght myself, as well as many regulars.

Regarding the issue at hand. The area in question is adjacent to adamsown (the biggest single developement of residential property in Irish history). Its not a million miles from their existing fan base. Its north of the Liffey and connections to the new metro lines would be very do-able.

I am against Pats moving to Tallaght, because I dont feel it is in the ineterst of our club. I do believe that this is a good opportunity for Bohemains. They are owned by members whereas, we are owned by individuals who will cash in their stake upon moving. They dont have that worry

I dont think capacity needs to exceed 10000 coupled with hospitality areas and bars. Ideal for an eircom league club.

Ceirtlis

04/05/2006, 5:22 PM

bohs or any other eircom league club do not need a 20000 seater stadium. they should just focus on building a decent stadium of about 8000 capacity. longfords ground for me is a prime example. there are seats in that ground i would say have never been sat in and that was includes semi finals in the fai cup and thats the biggest game ya can get next to a title decider. one of the greatest mistakes in my opinion of recent times has been the knocking of the shed end in cork. it was an example of what was good in el grounds. you can not compare eircom league soccer to irish greyhound racing either. i work at waterford greyhound stadium and going there is completely different to going to an el match. at soccer matches you sit down and watch the game. at the greyhound stadium you arse around drinking pints having a laugh and you dont really care all that much whats going on out on the track.
just to finish off bohs need a stadium with comfortable seating, good facilties and access to facilities bar etc, and a good atmosphere which is better developed from having a higher ground occupancy. the theory "if you build it they will come," is imo ******.

soccerc

04/05/2006, 5:41 PM

Regarding the issue at hand. The area in question is adjacent to adamsown (the biggest single developement of residential property in Irish history).

FFS Tom, the proposed site of Bohs' new stadium is nowhere near Adamstown - they are on completely different sides of the Liffey.

However, a little bird told me (and incidentally I believe him) that one of the developers involved in the Adamstown project mooted a similar landswap/stadium deal to St Pat's in the not too distant past.;)

thejollyrodger

04/05/2006, 8:53 PM

Shelbourne rule out Castleknock groundshare
04/05/2006 - 16:59:43

Shelbourne have reiterated on the eve of Bohemians members’ meeting about the future of Dalymount Park that they will not groundshare with the Gypsies if they move to Castleknock.

Bohemians members meet tonight to vote on an offer to sell Dalymount Park and move to Castleknock and there were some suggestions that a groundshare option in Castleknock has not been ruled out.

However, Shelbourne have insisted that the only groundshare option on their agenda is at Dalymount Park.http://breaking.tcm.ie/2006/05/04/story257214.html

well some good news at least:)

anto eile

04/05/2006, 9:46 PM

Is that for definite? If so, very interesting - it could get us out of a nasty hole if the scenario worked out like this:
- Bohs tell Ollie to shag off
- High Court tells GAA to shag off
- SDCC complete Tallaght
- Rovers move into Tallaght
- Ollie brown-noses SDCC
- Shels move into Tallaght
- Bohs swap the Tramway End for the Motorway End
- government willing to fund two stadia in Dublin
- Richmond turned into a four-sided, all-covered, all-seated ground with 5700 capacity, corporate facilities, a bar, etc with the government getting change out of �6 million (according to our Board)

i can see shels in tallaght.theyl have nowhere else to go, and cant afford to build their own green field stadium

cant see the govenrnment building richmond like that. its in a brutal location for a modern football stadium. and o donoghue said he'd build 2 10,000 seater stadiums in dublin,one in the south, one on the northside.

if boez got E20+M, it would be advisable to A: build a training academy/centre of excellence and B: make several investments like pubs, rental properties like offices etc, building up assets for long term income and security. but being the eircom league theyl probably spend all their money on buying david beckham on a one season contract or something stupid

A face

05/05/2006, 12:06 AM

buying david beckham on a one season contract

Now theres a plan for ya !! :eek:

Do you think the members would go for it ?? :p

Block G Raptor

05/05/2006, 9:02 AM

Looks like a done deal
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0505/dalymount.html

Gareth

05/05/2006, 10:09 AM

Sorry but the site they describe, is that actually Castleknock? Why is everywhere in west dublin labelled Castleknock?

Sniff, I always wanted Shels to move to D15. Boo hoo. I am off to cry into my drink....

Gareth

05/05/2006, 10:40 AM

Its all down to the Barony of Castleknock. The title Castleknock seems to now refer to the barony of Castleknock which stretches from Cabra to Clonee on the Meath border on the one hand and from Chapelizod to Finglas in the other direction. Castleknock when I was growing up, as a village went to Castleknock College, the side of the Phoenix Park Racecourse and to the hump bridge as you cross to Blanch. Its really annoys me. Its like saying Cork people are Kerry people cos well, its close by eh!!! Grrrrr....

CollegeTillIDie

06/05/2006, 11:52 AM

Ok if Dalymount is granted Planning permission and Bohs move to Gridlock central Stadium.
1/They ground share with Dublin City
2/ St. Patrick's Athletic stay where they are....... because it will be
3/ Shelbourne who will move to Tallaght and given you can reach there by LUAS, even Northsiders can get there.

Poor Student

06/05/2006, 11:55 AM

1/They ground share with Dublin City

Given the club's small fanbase and the alleged difficulty it will be to get to the ground, that sounds like a non-starter. Also, given City's accounts, it doesn't look likely they'll exist by then.

Roverstillidie

06/05/2006, 12:03 PM

assuming the bozos get this sorted and move into castleknock park, why would they share with anyone? they dont need the loot anymore and the fai cant threaten them over funding.

dcfcsteve

06/05/2006, 12:10 PM

- government willing to fund two stadia in Dublin
- Richmond turned into a four-sided, all-covered, all-seated ground with 5700 capacity, corporate facilities, a bar, etc with the government getting change out of €6 million (according to our Board)

The government is only willing to fund two stadia in Dublin in so far as it meets their objectiove of shared stadia for the 4 main teams there.

If Bohs go on their own, and Rovers and Shels shared Tallaght, I really couldn't see them putting funding into modernising Richmond just for Pat's. That would go against what they're trying to achieve - and open a can of worms (if they fund a stadium for one club, they'd be under pressure to do likewise for everyone else). Maybe if you took in another club, but the government have been very clear on their intention to use stadia funding as a tool to drive sharing of facilities.

monkey magic

06/05/2006, 1:00 PM

The government is only willing to fund two stadia in Dublin in so far as it meets their objectiove of shared stadia for the 4 main teams there.

If Bohs go on their own, and Rovers and Shels shared Tallaght, I really couldn't see them putting funding into modernising Richmond just for Pat's. That would go against what they're trying to achieve - and open a can of worms (if they fund a stadium for one club, they'd be under pressure to do likewise for everyone else). Maybe if you took in another club, but the government have been very clear on their intention to use stadia funding as a tool to drive sharing of facilities.

dub city for richmond groundshare?? it would a way round the funding block for pats and i cant se anyone having a problem with it...

Dr.Nightdub

06/05/2006, 1:50 PM

Or:
1. Bohs share the M50 Stadium with CHF
2. We share Richmond with Shels
3. Rovers share Tallaght with the GAA

:D

bad mongo

06/05/2006, 2:04 PM

Or:
1. Bohs share the M50 Stadium with CHF
2. We share Richmond with Shels
3. Rovers share Tallaght with the GAA

:D

What makes pats fans so optomistic that richer won't be sold out from under them? who the hell owns the place anyway?. If I was a descendant of one of Cromwell's troops I'd be rooting around the English land reg looking for that 999 year burcage lease on the stadium of light:D

Saint Tom

06/05/2006, 4:04 PM

would have shels as tenants in richmond, but not as co-owners. Dublin city given tenancy would by ideal if it meant we could get funding for the Richer. Shels will go to Tallaght

BohDiddley

06/05/2006, 4:16 PM

Odd that ground-sharing is being raised even in the context of Castleknock.
Ground-sharing with Shels was the bogey man that was used, by chance or by design, to loosen up members to agree to leave Dalymount. It was a false either-or, but it worked.

Whatever the Bohs board may say about keeping options open, after last Thursday's sacrifice they are well aware that any groundshare, in the sense of equal partnership, of a new stadium (if it happens) would not be a runner. We are just about at the edge of our natural community, and of our tolerance for further compromise.

I think that the big winners in all of this will be the wise old heads at Pats. With Shels and shams in Tallaght, Pats will be the sole traditional Dublin team in need of investment in their ground, and by that time this nonsensical doctrine of only putting public money into shared stadia may be dead. In any case, I'd like that to happen: it'd be great if, after all the shenanigans, tradition and community were to win out, even if it is south of the river.