Has Jim O'Neill retired? [Archive]

Superhoops

01/05/2006, 11:16 AM

I would be interested to know who members of this forum consider to be the good referees officiating currently in the EL.

Regarding refereeing generally my own view is that at whatever level of football or in whatever part of the world football is played referees and assistant referees will always be spotlighted when they make mistakes. If we expect that every referee and assisitant will get every decision right every time then we are being unrealistic. Also, it is natural that whenever there is a decision to be made, the bias towards the team you are supporting tends to outweigh objectivity.

For example, how many times after an incident will you hear managers, players and supporters have completely opposing opinions ('yes - it definitely was no penalty' or 'no - there was no way it was a penalty') about the same incident. When the referee makes a call in such incidents, no matter what way he calls it he is on a loser with half the 'audience'.

There are two aspects relating to match officials that have always intrigued me:
1) why are coaches/players/supporters in rugby more respectful of referees even when they get decisions wrong that their football counterparts?
2) in football why do assistant referees get the basic offside calls wrong so often? They seem to have great difficulty distinguishing the difference between 'at the time the ball was played' and 'at the time the ball arrives'. Even maore annoying is the fact that the longer the distance of the pass into the attacker is, the more often they get it wrong.

A face

01/05/2006, 12:37 PM

I would be interested to know who members of this forum consider to be the good referees officiating currently in the EL.

None !!

And that is not being flippant there, credit where its due but imho its not due here, BUT not through fault of their own ... they are not full time and it will only ever improve until we get to a stage where refs can compete on fitness and training with the players they are trying to ref. Its a tough one but definitely, there is a problem at the moment, it could be worse but its far from ideal.

The one thing i worry about is that refs are key to this league improving, and thats what we all want.

Maz

01/05/2006, 12:38 PM

I actually liked Jimmy O' Neill as a ref. There are very few good refs in the EL I suppose at the moment I'd prefer Alan Kelly

Superhoops

01/05/2006, 5:19 PM

None !!

If that is the case how come they are being approved for the FIFA and UEFA panel? If their performances are that poor when they officate abroad, surely they would lose their FIFA/UEFA accreditation?

razor

02/05/2006, 8:23 AM

Hilda tried her hand at reffing in Cobh the other night.
Brutal was the opinion of both sides.
Linesmen flagging for everything to try and cover her bum.

football fan

02/05/2006, 10:02 AM

[QUOTE=A face]None !!

And that is not being flippant there, credit where its due but imho its not due here, BUT not through fault of their own ... they are not full time and it will only ever improve until we get to a stage where refs can compete on fitness and training with the players they are trying to ref. Its a tough one but definitely, there is a problem at the moment, it could be worse but its far from ideal. QUOTE]

IMO the league cannot sustain full time clubs let alone full time officials. Look at England. Has the introduction of full time referees improved the situation there? We still see week in and week out in England some shocking decisions by referees.

Finally, maybe you or some other members here can suggest how they would go about improving the standard of refs in this country. Its one thing to complain, its something else to come up with positive solutions!!

Réiteoir

02/05/2006, 11:28 AM

The only thing that results from having full-time referees in England is that they are physically fitter than ever before.

The meet every two weeks to go over incidents in games and to try to come up with a uniform interpretation of Law - which is what I believe happens with the eL guys.

Going back to the FIFA / UEFA thing - I saw Ian Stokes referee Wales vs. Slovenia at Swansea a few months back - his perfomance was excellent.

ConfusedBlue

02/05/2006, 12:42 PM

Yeah he has retired although he was 4th official at our home game against Longford I believe.

Apparently he's now looking to get involved behind the scenes at the RSC as some form of commercial manager or something along those lines!!!

Superhoops

02/05/2006, 1:18 PM

......Going back to the FIFA / UEFA thing - I saw Ian Stokes referee Wales vs. Slovenia at Swansea a few months back - his perfomance was excellent.
This is exactly the point I was making about how the view on how good a referee is or isn't is more often than not clouded when a 'perceived' poor decision goes against your own team, whether you are a player, a manager or a supporter and that a neutral point of view is generally more objective.

Last year Alan Kelly was upgraded to a Grade 2 UEFA referee and Ian Stokes to Grade 3. I think Alan Kelly is still the youngest ever FIFA referee, appointed when he was 26 and the minimum age was 25. Now you have to assume that these and other Irish match officials have proved they are good enough to qualify and more importantly are being appointed to officiate at UEFA/FIFA games.

Saying that none of the EL referees/assistant referees are any good doesn't really take the discussion forward, unless of course we assume that FIFA/UEFA have got it wrong in all cases involving Irish match officials.

Dodge

02/05/2006, 3:02 PM

Réiteoir

02/05/2006, 4:19 PM

Each country gets acertain amount of fifa/uefa accreditation. When was the last timean irish man ever referred in a euro/world cup? Never.

They are all awful. Kelly's the best of a bad bunch ()and he is shocking)

We had Eddie Foley run the line at the 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000

The other main thing we had running against us in the past is that Refereeing Gradings were dependent on the Co-efficients of that nation's club sides.

Alan Kelly should be going to a major tournament within the next 10 years

Superhoops

02/05/2006, 5:16 PM

Each country gets acertain amount of fifa/uefa accreditation....
They dont just get accreditation they have to earn it by assessment in a number of aspects of refereeing, including fitness (I think they have to pass something called the Cooper test).

CollegeTillIDie

02/05/2006, 8:53 PM

Referees in this country have to retire at 47. It should be based on fitness and competency. Pat Kelly would have been well able to handle EL matches at 48, 49 or 50. He remained fit. Unlike some younger guys who were on the panel at the time!

Copa Mundial

03/05/2006, 11:55 AM

Guys, there are some very interesting comments on this thread particularly from Superhoops, Reiteoir and Football fan. The comments have a lot of thought in them and appear to have an objective. It would be interesting to find out about the progression of 'A Referee' from the time he does his/her initial beginners course and how they progress nationally and internationally, what fitness levels they need to go through and how and when they train.

There sems to be an air of secrecy surrounding the referees which im sure is not the case.

Suggestion.Why not do a Q&A with the Referees Department of the FAI.

I am aware that the FAI may not allow such a Q&A, but you wont know until you try:ball:

bluemovie

03/05/2006, 1:35 PM

They dont just get accreditation they have to earn it by assessment in a number of aspects of refereeing, including fitness (I think they have to pass something called the Cooper test).

The Cooper Test: Each potential referee has to assemble a barrel by hand using wooden staves and a metal hoop.

John Feighery scored particularly highly on this section of the test.

Superhoops

03/05/2006, 5:42 PM

The Cooper Test: Each potential referee has to assemble a barrel by hand using wooden staves and a metal hoop.

John Feighery scored particularly highly on this section of the test.
Thanks for this intelligent contribution to the debate! ;)

The Cooper Test (or Cooper Run) measures how far someone can run in 12 minutes on a running track. Usually 2800/3000 metres is considered to be top class. I am sure the UEFA/FIFA requirement is 2800 metres minimum.

2 of the 23 referees appointed for the WCFinals have still to pass fitness tests.

On the subject of WCF referees, included in the final 23 are referees from traditional football strongholds such as Guatemala, Benin, Singapore and Jamaica, so no reason why an Irish referee should not make it.

football fan

04/05/2006, 10:48 AM

The requirements as laid down by UEFA/FIFA with regard to the Cooper test is that the person must run a minimum of 2700 metres in 12 minutes. From what I hear there are several members of the Eircom Panel who run 3000 plus. So fitness is not a problem with these guys.

Furthermore, those referees on the FIFA panel are appointed on a regular basis to matches in Europe. In fact at the end of this month Alan Kelly will take charge of the A International Friendly between France and Denmark and Ian Stokes will take charge of the A International Friendly between Switzerland and China.

Can we start to give these lads some credit!! It will not be long before an Irish referee will be at a major tournament.

With regard to referees from Jamica, Singapore etc, this is because Mr. Blatter wants a world 'family', a world representation. Only so many referees from Europe (I think maybe ten although someone might correct me on that!!)will be sent and therefore the Irish lads have to compete with referees from all the major powers, Germany, France, Spain, Italy and England.

Dodge

04/05/2006, 11:19 AM

They'll get credit when they deserve it. As of now, they're one of the worst things about the league.

Ronnie

04/05/2006, 11:25 AM

razor

04/05/2006, 12:03 PM

The requirements as laid down by UEFA/FIFA with regard to the Cooper test is that the person must run a minimum of 2700 metres in 12 minutes.Is that with or without the guide dog? :D Sorry couldn't resist it.
Kelly looks to be our best bet to be honest and as a Cork man i'd be delighted for him but I couldn't really rate him as we don't get him at all.
thought i heard he was doing England -Italy U21 game soon?

Réiteoir

04/05/2006, 12:49 PM

thought i heard he was doing England -Italy U21 game soon?

That game happened 4 years ago - and was his first International Match :D

razor

04/05/2006, 1:03 PM

That game happened 4 years ago - and was his first International Match :DYeah I am aware of that but thought I read somewhere that he was getting another U21 game.

football fan

04/05/2006, 1:33 PM

That game happened 4 years ago - and was his first International Match :D

That is correct to some extent. A couple of weeks ago he was back in England to referee another England V Italy U21 match. I hear it went very well for him.

football fan

04/05/2006, 1:36 PM

Kelly looks to be our best bet to be honest and as a Cork man i'd be delighted for him but I couldn't really rate him as we don't get him at all.

You seem to forget that he did the replay in the cup against Galway and this year he was in charge of your home setanta cup match against Drogheda. I'll jog your memory further, Cork won both games!!!!

razor

04/05/2006, 3:09 PM

You seem to forget that he did the replay in the cup against Galway and this year he was in charge of your home setanta cup match against Drogheda. I'll jog your memory further, Cork won both games!!!!The Setanta game was a last minute thing due to an injury to the appointed referee. The Galway thing was a shock as was the late penalty he gave us to win the game.:D

Superhoops

04/05/2006, 5:04 PM

....As of now, they're one of the worst things about the league.
Is one of the other things cyncial fans? ;)

Dodge

04/05/2006, 5:26 PM

I;m far from cynical superhoops. I just think referees ruin more games than they help. We have a lot going for us, refs aren't one of them

Superhoops

04/05/2006, 9:57 PM

I;m far from cynical superhoops. I just think referees ruin more games than they help. We have a lot going for us, refs aren't one of them
Unfortunately you cannot have a football game without a referee. You also have to remember that some of the refereeing decisions/actions are directly as a result of FIFA/UEFA directives.

You can be as critical as you like but what you haven't done in this debate is suggest how you would improve the situation.

Supposing that English Premiership/Italian Seria A/Spanish La Liga/German Bundesliga referees were invited to guest at a certain number of EL games (and they could as their domestic seasons would be finished when the EL in is full swing) would that improve the standard?

I would guarantee that if say Marcus Merk was refereering Pats v Bohs/Shels and gave a decision that you did not agree with and that cost Pats a goal or the game, you would still get Pats 'fans' (maybe you might be one of them) expressing the view that Merk was a rubbish referee.

We hear managers, players, fans and pundits in the Premiership question the competency of referees like Graham Poll, Mike Riley, Mark Halsey and Steve Bennett almost on a weekly basis. Are all of these poor referees?

Even 'super whistler' Pierluigi Colina went through times in Italy where his competency was questioned.

Very seldom in a game where a crucial 50-50 refereeing decision is made, will you get both sets of fans/players/managers in total agreement that the referee had a good game and got all the key decisions right.

Copa Mundial

05/05/2006, 10:51 AM

This has probably been the most objective and interesting discussion on refereeing that this site has seen. There seems to be some very informed posters here and thats a good thing. Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course but judging by comments from Superhoops and Football Fan, their's seem to be more factual than those based on opinion. I'm not dismissing comments made by others.

As i have already said, maybe a Q&A session with the referees department of the FAI is something to think about. Maybe then will people (players, managers,supporters) will be aware of the reasons referees do what they do.

These guys (and girls) make mistakes the same as the rest of us, its not on purpose though. If people can get past that then thats a start. Collina, the most recognisable referee in the world was practically hated by those in his own country. We have a small league and often see referees too often during a season. Familiarity breeds contempt. Its just something to think about.:ball:

Copa Mundial

07/05/2006, 5:31 PM

Back on the topic, Jim O Neill has retired. He is not part of the Referee Assessor's group for the Eircom League.

SÓC

07/05/2006, 11:15 PM

Back on the topic, Jim O Neill has retired. He is not part of the Referee Assessor's group for the Eircom League.

He was at the Munster Derby on Friday in with the Waterford fans at the Cross:eek:

razor

08/05/2006, 8:42 AM

He was at the Munster Derby on Friday in with the Waterford fans at the Cross:eek:Colours nailed well and truly to the mast. And to think of the amount of times he has been involved in officiating us against Waterford in some capacity or other.

Réiteoir

08/05/2006, 4:12 PM

That is correct to some extent. A couple of weeks ago he was back in England to referee another England V Italy U21 match. I hear it went very well for him.

Just remembered - it wasn't another U-21 game - it was a representative game between the Football League and the Italian League

Quite a big appointment to get

monkey magic

08/05/2006, 11:16 PM

T
1) why are coaches/players/supporters in rugby more respectful of referees even when they get decisions wrong that their football counterparts?

well for a start, in general, the rules of rugby are somewhat less ambiguous than foorball rules, football rules are open to a lot of interpretation, this in my opinion is the single most contributing factor in bad decision making. referees see things/interpret things differently snd this leads to acrimony from managers, who are constantly taking advantage of the un-clearness in the rules to put referees under pressure.

the thing that would inprove decisions the most for me is an improvement in the rules.

i mean at the end of the day, you have to say referees do not go out to make bad decisions, and they cannot all be incomptent, someone else mentioned that even the top referees get called into guestion quite regularily, and when their motives, physical fitness, and knoledge of the rules cannot be questioned, you have to say that its the rules themselves that pose the problem