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mypost
29/04/2006, 3:29 AM
Fianna Fáil won 81 seats in the 2002 General Election, ending up 2 short of an overall majority in government. As a result, the Progressive Democrats were called upon to help form the new coalition. The question I ask is how better/worse off would we be, if FF ruled the country alone?

Under a one-party administration;


Would the extra Gardaí that FF promised, have arised?
Would sufficient measures have been taken to significantly reduce the rate of crime?
Would there have been tougher jail sentences for convicted criminals?
Waiting lists were promised to be abolished. Today, hospital patients still lie on trolleys awaiting treatment, with apparantly no significant improvements since the last election. Under single-party rule, would it have been different?
Would there have been the improvement required in infrastructure, in all areas?
Would the high number of road accidents have been reduced to an extent?
Would there have been more foreign investment in the country instead of elsewhere?
Would Abbottstown have been built?
Would our policies towards our immigrant community be different?
Would the government have avoided a pounding in the local/European elections since?
If Harney, McDowell & co not got their foot in the door with FF, would we all have been better off?


Do you think the status quo will remain next time?


Should be a good thread. Let's see. :)

pete
29/04/2006, 4:42 AM
FF are too arrogant to let govern on their own. Without the PDs Bertie wouldn't have a convenient sacpegoat. Often the issues FF voters get mad about are the ones PD votes rally around.

If FF annoy the unions they will blame the PDs who will gain extra votes from their constituency.

crc
29/04/2006, 12:45 PM
FF are incompetent, but are they more incompetent than the alternative? Most of the hot issues at the moment (health, transport) are down to vested interests, which will continue to exist no matter which party is in government. FF also have some very able ministers, especially since they farmed off McCreevy.

The PDs are solid and do what they say. I broadly concur with them on a lot of issues, but experience from other countries tells us we should be suspicious of wholeheartedly embracing free-market economics (though it still has a major part to play here - CIE, etc.)

I would like to see the Greens get a go in government, if only to see what they'd be able to do, however I'm a little put off them by their substantial lunatic fringe and hostility to the EU.

I'm also suspicious of Labour's luny fringe and the tax and spend mantra.
I'd consider emigrating if SF were offered a place in govt, but I don't see it happening.

Yet the FF-PD govt did bring in the smoking ban and the plastic bag levy, which are two of the most progressive policie the state ever introduced. Is 10 years too long to stay in government? What about 15? I don't know. Perhaps a FF-PD-Green govt would be suitable next time.

CollegeTillIDie
29/04/2006, 5:25 PM
I'd consider emigrating if SF were offered a place in govt, but I don't see it happening.
I agree I would also emigrate if SF got into power. If I wanted to live in a country ruled by thugs I'd move to the Ukraine or somewhere similar:rolleyes: at least the local talent would be worth seeing :D

mypost
29/04/2006, 8:50 PM
Yet the FF-PD govt did bring in the smoking ban and the plastic bag levy, which are two of the most progressive policie the state ever introduced.

It must be pointed out, however, that the bag charge was brought in before the last GE.

pete
30/04/2006, 1:15 PM
It must be pointed out, however, that the bag charge was brought in before the last GE.

The bin tax is a joke. Does anyone really believe that all shops are passing the levy over to the state? Some shops charge for the bags & some don't.

I was amazed the smkoing ban brought given FFs ties to the Publicans.

If nothing else FF should be kicked out of government to loosen the grip on the government from vested interests. Its amazing how unelected people have so much say in how this country is run - trade unions, property developers etc...

hamish
30/04/2006, 1:53 PM
Great idea for a thread mypost - see FF are up in the Sunday Business Post polls this morning.
As the old git in Foot.ie, it's great to see so many young people here so articulate and knowledgeable about current affairs - sorry if that appears patronising - I know I learn much here everyday. God's truth.
However, what does concern me is that with the media so pervasive in our society today, we have a kind of "bread and circuses" situation - huge TV audiences for reality shows etc and a large youth population with no interest in voting, politics, community participation etc.
It appears to me that Foot.ie members are an important, intelligent and active minority - but, sadly, a minority nonetheless. Look at the low turnouts in elections:(
Give all the excellent points mypost raised in his opening posts, how can more young people be energised to take a more active role in society??
I know the above is the usual - and apologies - bland commentary.
It annoys me when I hear soundbites from folks on TV news like "What are the politicians doing for us?" or "No one gives a damn about us" - there seems to be a very passive attitude around.
In the late 60s and late 80s - the two soccer booms - quite a few people got up off their butts and made things happen - building new grounds, facilities, forming extra teams etc - that seems to be dying away a bit and it's the same people involved in running everything now and it appears that - whatever the sport - committees have an grown older too. That's only the football example and I guess it's the same for St. Vincent de Paul, Hospital fund raising groups and any other category I can think of.
Anyone got ideas??

Roverstillidie
30/04/2006, 1:57 PM
Its amazing how unelected people have so much say in how this country is run - trade unions, property developers etc...

i broadly agree, but trade unions arent unelected....??? someone tell the membership
representitives of organisations in partnership is a different proposition to gruppy property speculators surely?

pete
30/04/2006, 2:33 PM
i broadly agree, but trade unions arent unelected....??? someone tell the membership


They are not elected by the public. Unions get a say in "social partnership" dispite representing a significant minority in this country. If yout take out the public employees they don't speak for anyone in the private sector. Without the private sector would be no one left to pay public sectors wages.

hamish
30/04/2006, 2:41 PM
Reading a lot about unions on the US blogs and the decline of the auto industry and outsourcing etc. There's a ferocious arguments about whether unions are to blame but, I mean, waht can a union do when the company "outsources" to Mexico (happened too to Square D in Beeslow - company moved to Mexico and opened up the Square D factory there the same week Bertie Aherne visited it).
Trouble is when you outsource all the good paying jobs to cheaper countries, the products still have to be imported and then - who's gonna be able to pay for these products when most new US jobs are poorly paid - hairdressers, McJobs etc. The US middle class - the bedrock of the US economy - is being hammered at the moment and the unions have little influence in the matter.
It's going to happen here too - sooner or later - in some similar form.
I mean, what kind of role CAN the unions play here**??:confused:

**Accepting the fact that there are good unions and poorly run unions.

CollegeTillIDie
30/04/2006, 4:36 PM
If you don't like the present government and your friends and family don't like them either and you would prefer the alternative then your choice is clear. GET EVERYONE YOU KNOW OUT TO VOTE AGAINST THE FF/PD AT THE NEXT ELECTION!

It is the people who cannot be arsed to vote , and then give out about the government I have absolutely no time for. #
And under PR/STV your vote does count and can make a difference. Dick Spring once got a seat by 4 votes. Kathy Sinnott was denied one by less than 10.

It's the people that did not turn out to vote at all , who were morally responsible for the Nazis getting elected in Germany in the early 1930's. And if a similar fate was to befall this country( i.e. an unrepresentative bunch of thugs got elected into power) it would be the non-voting public who would be responsible for it.

After all for evil to prosper all it takes is for a large number of good people to do nothing!

CollegeTillIDie
30/04/2006, 4:43 PM
What can a union do when the company "outsources" to Mexico (happened too to Square D in Beeslow - company moved to Mexico and opened up the Square D factory there the same week Bertie Aherne visited it).
Trouble is when you outsource all the good paying jobs to cheaper countries, the products still have to be imported and then - who's gonna be able to pay for these products when most new US jobs are poorly paid - hairdressers, McJobs etc. The US middle class - the bedrock of the US economy - is being hammered at the moment and the unions have little influence in the matter.
It's going to happen here too - sooner or later - in some similar form.
I mean, what kind of role CAN the unions play here**??:confused:

**Accepting the fact that there are good unions and poorly run unions.

Your points are very well made Hamish. The World economy will collapse when the so called First World employees in poorly paid jobs are not able to afford the products produced in Mexico and the like for slave wages , because the wages for the mickey mouse employment available to us will collapse. And of course in this country there will be a huge backlash against immigrants and I for one will no longer want to live here ! :(

hamish
30/04/2006, 5:29 PM
Your points are .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...................................... will no longer want to live here ! :(

The Yanks are beginning to cop that too CTID - the Middle Class is getting hammered there right now.

I see J. Kenneth Kilbraith died today - by coincidence he has an article in Information Clearing House today on this very subject.

The Predator State

Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government?

By James K. Galbraith

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12880.htm

Extract
In the mixed-economy America I grew up in, there existed a post-capitalist, post-Marxian vision of middle-class identity. It consisted of shared assets and entitlements, of which the bedrock was public education, access to college, good housing, full employment at living wages, Medicare, and Social Security. These programs, publicly provided, financed, or guaranteed..................
.....................These middle-class institutions survive in America today, but they are frayed and tattered from constant attack.

This may be the US example but it applied as much to Ireland as well.......we're going down the same road.

As for people not voting, CTID, agree with you totally but many of the young haven't a clue, sadly, of the significance of voting, elections, health care etc. - all the matters mypost raised - Honest to God, these matters sail over their heads as if they didn't exist.

I was reading the latest edition of Private Eye last night and there's a part in it each fortnight about quiz show answers called "Dumb Britain".
This from The Big Quiz on LBC 97.3
Gary King: Which singing diva had a UK number one hit in the 19602 called 'Respect'?
Contestant: George Galloway.....................:D
Gary King: What's the main ingredient of a Molotov Cockail?
Contestant: "Vodka"??

The above could apply to Ireland as well.
Do they still teach Civics in school these days??

Poor Student
30/04/2006, 5:36 PM
Does anyone really believe that all shops are passing the levy over to the state? Some shops charge for the bags & some don't.


My dad, who owns a newsagents, stopped using plastic bags altogether within a year of the tax. People stopped taking plastic bags almost entirely overnight whereas before they would gluttonously take them for nothing. A good measure by whoever put it forward. You see tonnes of people going around using those permenent bags sold by the supermarkets now instead of hording and wasting plastic bags they don't need.

hamish
30/04/2006, 6:34 PM
Before mypost hits me a slap I'll try and stay on thread. I feel that it's a good thing to have more than one party in power - can curb the excesses of the larger party.
FFS - FF and Jack Lynch brought out a budget in the late 70s that was was nearly suicidal for the country. I remember it only too well.

I'd love to the see the Greens become part of a coalition - but would they have much of an influence???

To tell you the truth, mypost, looking at your excellent list, would it have been any different with just a FF government.
Very little in any category I'd say.

mypost
30/04/2006, 7:05 PM
We urgently need decent sports facilities. Abbottstown was effectively destroyed by the PD's, who detest spending money. We have an out-of-her-depth Health Minister, and a completely incompetent Justice Minister. Entire communities seem to be completely out-of-control, and his laws are not worth the paper they're written on. Both ministers are PD's. Road infrastructure is in a terrible state under this administration too.

Making comparisons with the previous single-party rule are a bit wide of mark, as we are far richer now and Ireland has developed considerably as a nation since then.

hamish
30/04/2006, 7:24 PM
We urgently need decent sports facilities. Abbottstown was effectively destroyed by the PD's, who detest spending money. We have an out-of-her-depth Health Minister, and a completely incompetent Justice Minister. Entire communities seem to be completely out-of-control, and his laws are not worth the paper they're written on. Both ministers are PD's. Road infrastructure is in a terrible state under this administration too.

Making comparisons with the previous single-party rule are a bit wide of mark, as we are far richer now and Ireland has developed considerably as a nation since then.

Amen to your first paragraph mypost - I blame Bertie too for shafting Eircom Park.

Sometimes history does teach us, though, regardless of the economic circumstances, that when one party wins a huge majority, arrogance and an almost Messanic devotion to holding power, will result in ludicrous decisions. I rememeber car tax being abolished that time but we were penalised in other ways.

I do agree with you about the PDs TBH. I mean, what changes DID the PDs actually bring about when you think about it? They may have curbed some of the usual FF excesses but, as you said, what did their Ministers achieve in their offices?? Fcuk all.
I'd still be very afraid of a FF only government given the past. There are still a lot of cowboys in that party - Donie Cassidy for example. According to a local paper here he's in danger of losing his seat. No loss.

I think the health issue is crucial. I got a "double" MRI scan a few weeks ago in Portiuncula and had to shell out 450 euros because messing between the VHI and the Health Authority meant that the former will only cover you if you go to the Bon Seceur in Galway city. Needless to say, I wasn't told about this beforehand or I'd have made the obvious arrangements.
Speaking to folks in Portiuncula, the entire health service is in a total mess and disenchantment is rife.
Maybe the consultants are part of the problem but the massive amount of unecessary beaucracy is one thing Harney could do something about. We also have nurses now doing fcuk all "on the spot" training as I've noticed myself having spent much hospital time in the last few years. The Health Boards are also mostly a freebie for local TDs and politicians - again, Harney does nothing and a FF government would do nothing either - they'd be afraid to upset the local voting fodder.

Roverstillidie
01/05/2006, 1:03 AM
They are not elected by the public. Unions get a say in "social partnership" dispite representing a significant minority in this country. If yout take out the public employees they don't speak for anyone in the private sector. Without the private sector would be no one left to pay public sectors wages.

they represent many more people than anyone else in partnership!

union representation runs at a higher rate of the workforce than the rate of participation in elections.....

dcfcsteve
01/05/2006, 1:40 AM
I agree I would also emigrate if SF got into power. If I wanted to live in a country ruled by thugs I'd move to the Ukraine or somewhere similar:rolleyes: at least the local talent would be worth seeing

No you wouldn't ! :D

I've no desire to see SF in power the Republic, but the aul "I'll leave the country if..." pronouncements are always a load of ballax.

The English media was full of them from rich celebrities saying they'd leave Britain if Labour beat the Tories in 1997. Not one of them did (sadly), even though they could afford to.

I'll wager you don't emigrate solely in response to any power-sharing arrangement involcing SF. Only a small one though, as I don't want to give you the financial incentive to leave... :)

Dassa
01/05/2006, 7:51 PM
I dont know very much about ROI party politics but was always curious to see if people down south think that a coalition of 2 parties ideas brings a positive influence governing politics and policies.

dcfcsteve
01/05/2006, 9:49 PM
I dont know very much about ROI party politics but was always curious to see if people down south think that a coalition of 2 parties ideas brings a positive influence governing politics and policies.

The benefit of a coalition obviously depends on who the partners are in it, as they both/all need to get something from the deal politically.

Broadly though, coalition is often a good thing, as it takes the sharper/extreme/more unpopular edges off of the bigger parties. For example, it's extremely unlikely that Blair would've been able to take Britain to war against Iraq so easily if he'd been in a coalition with a smaller partner (like the Lib Dems, fo example).

In somewhere like Northern Ireland, I would go so far as to say that coalitions should be compulsory, as history there shows how the larger community is often unable to wield power in an equitable manner.

If there ever was a united Ireland, it would probably be the Unionist block in parliament who would hold the deciding cards and be perrenial coalition partners in an all-island government. That would no doubt be of huge benefit to the North-east of the island, as they could make heavy demands in return for their ongoing support.

Sadly, all pie in the sky though. Northern Ireland is politically destined to remain a tiny bit-part player on a big stage, rather than one of the key players on a much smaller one.

Dassa
01/05/2006, 10:03 PM
In somewhere like Northern Ireland, I would go so far as to say that coalitions should be compulsory, as history there shows how the larger community is often unable to wield power in an equitable manner.

If there ever was a united Ireland, it would probably be the Unionist block in parliament who would hold the deciding cards and be perrenial coalition partners in an all-island government. That would no doubt be of huge benefit to the North-east of the island, as they could make heavy demands in return for their ongoing support.

Sadly, all pie in the sky though. Northern Ireland is politically destined to remain a tiny bit-part player on a big stage, rather than one of the key players on a much smaller one.

Wasnt really considering it in a NI context as any future NI politics from Stormont will be coalition as a result of Assembly rules. Personally altough Im not a unionist I have no interest in NI playing any part in this much smaller stage you mention. I want to see much greater government decisions for NI made by NI people like that seen in Scotland. Altough Westminster has a large say still. I hope the future for the UK lies in the 4 countries having a say in their own affairs even more.

Personally think it would be great to see coalition government in UK as it means the minority would have a say which is vital in any government. The ROI government have shown that coalitions can work.

dcfcsteve
02/05/2006, 12:47 AM
If Labour keep going the way they're going, and the Tories continue to make small but not substantial improveemnts in their standing, it is highly likely there'll be a hung-parliament in Britain after the next election. Here's hoping, as that would be when things would start to get interesting...

As for devolving more power to NI - totally agree with you. But we'll get nowhere near the power that Scotland has, and probably not even as much as Wales. The simple fact is that for as long as Northern Ireland had any power it was routinely abused. Until the new institutions prove themselves capable of wiedling power equiatbly, there is zero chance of any significant authority coming NI's way. And rightly so.

Dassa
02/05/2006, 1:12 AM
couldnt agree more with you steve. it annoys me to see Englishmen making decisions on my behalf. i personally think that in the long term we will get as much power as we want especially with a labour party in office. However i dont trust one party in NI to take advantage of it. I would love to see real politics in this country with politicians questioned on policies not just basic constititional issues. Steve if there was a hung parliament next time which potential coalitions can you see arising. You have the historic Tory-Unionists combined votes maybe labour-Lib Dems?

What NI needs is the setting up of major political parties here. i personally think labours attitude to residing NI peoples interest in labour is a huge mistake on their behalf.

pete
02/05/2006, 4:42 PM
PR system of elections is destined to create coalition government. First Past the post means can bring 205 support like Lib Dems but have minimal seats in the Parliament. For all its failings PR is infinitely better.

Bald Student
02/05/2006, 4:47 PM
I was thinking about this over the weekend and it occoured to me that in the event that FF and SF have enough seats combined to go into government (which I think is very likely) it means that FG cannot enter government.

That would make for some very interesting post-election politics.

Dodge
02/05/2006, 4:57 PM
Only problems with coalitions is that it can lead to a case of the tail wagging the dog. Certainly the PDs got far greater say thatn their paltry election results deserved.

As it is, no party appeals to me (would favour Lanour above most but they just seem incompetant at the moment)

Dassa
02/05/2006, 5:52 PM
think thats the problem with many people in many countries, people tell us to get out and vote to have a say but what if no-ones saying what you want them to.

CollegeTillIDie
02/05/2006, 9:33 PM
hamish

"The Age Of Uncertainty" was a great TV series. JK Galbraith was responsible for me becoming vaguely interested in Economics. What followed 1977 was two of the most tedious years study of the subject up to Leaving Cert with that dreadful text book " Economics At Work". But for years I never forgave Galbraith for selling me a pup! May he rest in peace!!!

CollegeTillIDie
03/05/2006, 7:27 AM
The danger of coalition governments , for the uninitiated , is sometimes the tail wags the dog!
The advantage is the smaller party can by the same token , curb the excesses of the larger party!

CollegeTillIDie
03/05/2006, 7:35 AM
If we go back to 1919 when Dail Eireann was founded essentially in the terms of the parties in existence back then the situation is like this.
There was back then mainly The LABOUR PARTY which we still have today and
SINN FEIN 1919 Split over the treaty into Cumman na Gaedhal( 1922) who became Fine Gael in 1932, and then into Fianna Fail ( 1926) and then what was known as The Third Sinn Fein split into (a) Official Sinn Fein/The Workers Party (1970) who in turn split into Democratic Left (late 1980's) who merged with the Labour Party (mid 1990's). That left(b) The Provisional Sinn Fein wing of 1970 which split into the Irish Republic Socialist Party ( 1970's) and Republican Sinn Fein ( 1980's). Fianna Fail in turn spawned Independent Fianna Fail (1970) numerous independent T.D.'s ( 1926- to date) and the Progressive Democrats( 1986).

So one could argue , given that every government since 1922 has included either Fine Gael/Cumann Na Gaedhal or Fianna Fail, that we have been governed by the 1919 version of Sinn Fein, in some shape or form, since the Brits left Dublin Castle!

Macy
03/05/2006, 8:11 AM
The danger of coalition governments , for the uninitiated , is sometimes the tail wags the dog!
So you get the situation where an extremely small party holds the power, as opposed to the supposedly unfair first past the post system where the party holding power at least has around 40% (36% in the UK I think) of the vote. 40% v 4% - I know which looks fairer to me, especially after 9 years suffering under the PD's.

Lionel Ritchie
03/05/2006, 11:56 AM
So you get the situation where an extremely small party holds the power, as opposed to the supposedly unfair first past the post system where the party holding power at least has around 40% (36% in the UK I think) of the vote. 40% v 4% - I know which looks fairer to me, especially after 9 years suffering under the PD's.

Sorry Macy but that doesn't add up -as it implies things would've been substantially different if FF were in on their own or with a different partner. Fianna Fáil could've and most likely did make overtures to Labour after 2002 -if only for a stronger majority -but for the fact that FF are idealogically closer to the PDs and are very happy to work with them even with a reduced majority.

Your post suggests you believe Berties nonsense about being a socialist and the late Brian Lenihans about FF being a party of the near left.

If the PDs make the most of what they bring to the cabinet and government -well good luck to them.

If it was the green party, who I very much would like to see given a crack in government, they'd do likewise and they'd be right to.

I'll also remind Mypost that it's FF's star pupil Mary Hanafin who recently said straight out on Q and A, in an uncharacteristicly non-evasive answer, that she simply wasn't prepared to spend the money needed to bring our primary schools up to code and get class sizes down to rest-of-the-developed-world levels. How's that for detesting the spending of money?

The only thing I can see that we'd have now if FF were in on their own is a bloated mess of a vanity project out in Abbottstown, costing 10 to 12 times it's initial estimate and which the FAI and IRFU maintain they'd only manage to actually fill once a decade each.

On their own - I wouldn't let Fianna Fáil mind my bike.

klein4
03/05/2006, 1:46 PM
how can they not be prepared to spend money when they throw it away and waste it (eg electronic voting system) so much. ??? tighter controls on how money is spent...ie more bang for your buck would do the country the power of good regardless of who was in power. cant say i agree with a system that allows a party who got feck all actual votes to basically run the government.

Lionel Ritchie
03/05/2006, 2:12 PM
Well if FF and FG would only acknowledge that very little divides them in terms of policy and so either a) merge or b ) go into coalition together these tail wagging dog stories would evaporate and a credible alternative political force would possibly emerge rather than the forty shades of blue that dominate Irish politics.

People get the government they vote for, they know how the system works and frankly I'm far happier to have our system rather than the UKs where, if applied here, FF would be in government on their own, with one in three of the electorates votes, in perpetuity.

Macy
03/05/2006, 2:34 PM
Sorry Macy but that doesn't add up -as it implies things would've been substantially different if FF were in on their own or with a different partner. Fianna Fáil could've and most likely did make overtures to Labour after 2002 -if only for a stronger majority -but for the fact that FF are idealogically closer to the PDs and are very happy to work with them even with a reduced majority.

Your post suggests you believe Berties nonsense about being a socialist and the late Brian Lenihans about FF being a party of the near left.
No, I think that FF are a right wing party too. Their terms in Government have shown that. However, that doesn't change the fact that a tiny party with a tiny vote wield a lot of power. Who's responsible for that is a different matter, and yes it does suit FF to hide behind Harney's considerable skirt, and McDowells even more considerable venomous mouth.

mypost
04/05/2006, 3:09 AM
cant say i agree with a system that allows a party who got feck all actual votes to basically run the government.

Another problem with coalitions is that in general, fewer things get done. Unlike in 1977, we are a rich country now, and if FF won their overall majority last time, there would be a better chance of tackling the issues facing the country, with greater financial muscle. We would be better able to absorb the high cost to the public purse, of reforming the health service, to give the police greater powers to crack down on crime at all levels, Abbottstown would now rival Croke Park as a sports venue to admire, and be an aspiration for future generations to participate in, instead of getting the chop; Transport would be greatly improved around the country.

Instead, we have the same problems in the health service as before; chronic bed, and staff shortages, teamed up with underfunded/unused/non-existent services, the number of road deaths has snowballed on poor quality roads, while speeding motorists are let off court convictions on technicalities. In general, sports infrastructure at all levels of participation, is at best terrible, and at worst in an embarrasingly appalling state. The number of new Garda recruits has, (far from being significantly boosted as promised), actually been reduced. Dublin Airport still has no second terminal, the airport becomes ever more overcrowded, and weary passengers and staff snap at each other easily. We annually see a surplus in the government's budget, rather than budgets spent.

In 2002, the country had an opportunity to give a one-party administration the opportunity to reform the country, because someone has to do it. The consequences of electing another coalition has meant that less money has been spent, less targets have been achieved, and fewer projects have been completed, while those that have been completed, have ended up being way overdue, and well over-budget.

Electing a coalition last time, was a vital opportunity to reform, missed. It is improbable to suggest that the status quo will change next time. It will be a two, or even a three-way coalition. Such a coalition will mean even less money spent, more indecision, and more inertia for the country.

Macy
04/05/2006, 8:12 AM
Less money spent? No Government has ever spent more, but then again no Government has wasted as much either. The biggest waste of the lot is Decentralisation, which was a FF policy decision.

Martin made such a difference in health when he was in charge, such improvements took place; O'Donoghue in Justice sorted out the cops and the robbers; McDaid and O'Donoghue in Arts, Sport and Tourism building the sporting infrastructure; Brennan and Cullen sorting out the roads... FF ministers have had the budgets and the time to sort out all the problems you list. And lest we forget, the PD's were FF's preferred coalition partners, so can hardly say they are now holding them back from what they want to do.

The PD's have more power than their vote deserves, I stand by that, but that by no means exonerates FF.

Strabane_Harp
04/05/2006, 10:03 AM
If we go back to 1919 when Dail Eireann was founded essentially in the terms of the parties in existence back then the situation is like this.
There was back then mainly The LABOUR PARTY which we still have today and
SINN FEIN 1919 Split over the treaty into Cumman na Gaedhal( 1922) who became Fine Gael in 1932, and then into Fianna Fail ( 1926) and then what was known as The Third Sinn Fein split into (a) Official Sinn Fein/The Workers Party (1970) who in turn split into Democratic Left (late 1980's) who merged with the Labour Party (mid 1990's). That left(b) The Provisional Sinn Fein wing of 1970 which split into the Irish Republic Socialist Party ( 1970's) and Republican Sinn Fein ( 1980's). Fianna Fail in turn spawned Independent Fianna Fail (1970) numerous independent T.D.'s ( 1926- to date) and the Progressive Democrats( 1986).

So one could argue , given that every government since 1922 has included either Fine Gael/Cumann Na Gaedhal or Fianna Fail, that we have been governed by the 1919 version of Sinn Fein, in some shape or form, since the Brits left Dublin Castle!


one correction, the IRSP didnt come out of PSF, they evolved out of Officials and were led by Seamus Costello, a popular Bray councillor

pete
04/05/2006, 12:02 PM
I can see the FF election slogan now "...Its the PDs fault we couldn't solve crime, health, road safety, sporting infrastructure, transport issues etc...Give is a majority & we will do it... " :rolleyes:

I think the biggest problem with current government politicians is the tendency to just throw money at issues without any imagination..."