Threats of death force two soccer players to quit the North

[Krstic]

My uncle just phoned me back and he asked me to point out to you, that he attended some Northern Ireland games in the late 80's early 90's and a favourite song then was 'If you hate Derry City clap your hands'

It was Against Spain and Uruguay.
Uruguay played you off the park but you beat them 1-0 with Alan McDonald scoring the goal.

Gary Fleming was playing and when he got the ball he was called a dirty fenian and fu ck off back to (london) Derry ya fenian Cu nt.
So there's a third for you to add to your Celtic list.
Funny you didn't mention Alan McKnight amongst the poor Celtic guy who were booed, wonder why???

[Not Brazil]

There's only one good fenian and it's Pat.

Had to ring my Uncle and ask him as he attended Northern Ireland games in those days, also became a Coleraine follower as Derry were out of the league( Some people have their crosses to bare)

And don't even try to tell me I made that song up NotBrazil.

Jeeezus, paranoia has set in.:rolleyes:

I said I hadn't heard the song when I attended many games in which Pat played, and asked would you tell me about it.

I did not, am not, and will not suggest that you made it up.

Seems like a daft song, considering the other "fenians" (as you refer) that were on the same teams as Pat and who were also good (although not as good as Pat:D )

[Dassa]

I dont know how you have managed to turn this thread into "NI fans are bigots thread" No-one in NI going to deny that NI had a problem,which has been eradicated, but if it suits people to keep having digs and makes them feel good go for it but at least do it on a relevant thread so that those of us who have heard and seen enough sectarianism from both sides over the years to do them a life time can ignore it thanks.

It was very sad to see the two lads having to leave NI and one of them I can remember seeing play for Institute seemed quite talanted, hopefully he takes a way a better impression from NI than the last week he experienced.

[Not Brazil]

My uncle just phoned me back and he asked me to point out to you, that he attended some Northern Ireland games in the late 80's early 90's and a favourite song then was 'If you hate Derry City clap your hands'

It was Against Spain and Uruguay.
Uruguay played you off the park but you beat them 1-0 with Alan McDonald scoring the goal.

Gary Fleming was playing and when he got the ball he was called a dirty fenian and fu ck off back to (london) Derry ya fenian Cu nt.
So there's a third for you to add to your Celtic list.
Funny you didn't mention Alan McKnight amongst the poor Celtic guy who were booed, wonder why???

You may phone your uncle back and tell him he's an aul eejit.

The winner against Uruguay was scored by Kevin Wilson, not Alan McDonald.;)

I'm reliably informed that Kevin's relatives were not from darkest, deepest Sandy Row either...not that I give two flying ones what religion a player is.

PS: Never, ever remind me of Alan McKnightmare again. He is someone I have worked hard on eradicating from my memory bank.:mad: ;)

PPS: I hadn't a clue what religion Gary Fleming was until you told me. It seems that you are a lot more concerned about these issues than me. I judge a footballer on his ability to play football, not on which strand of Christianity he may or may not practice.

You really need to get your head out of the bog of sectarianism that it currently seems to be obsessed with chief.

[Krstic]

You may phone your uncle back and tell him he's an aul eejit.

The winner against Uruguay was scored by Kevin Wilson, not Alan McDonald.;)

I'm reliably informed that Kevin's relatives were not from darkest, deepest Sandy Row either...not that I give two flying ones what religion a player is.

PS: Never, ever remind me of Alan McKnightmare again. He is someone I have worked hard on eradicating from my memory bank.:mad: ;)

PPS: I hadn't a clue what religion Gary Fleming was until you told me. It seems that you are a lot more concerned about these issues than me. I judge a footballer on his ability to play football, not on which strand of Christianity he may or may not practice.

You really need to get your head out of the bog of sectarianism that it currently seems to be obsessed with chief.

What ever you think, as long as you recognise I'm the Chief.

[David]

I tell you what, without the proof I will retract the statement that there was paramilitary involvement in the security operation. I have not changed my mind on it and I still believe it to be the case but, as I said, without the proof I will not mention it again.

As for the songs mentioned. As someone who attended games throughout Pat's international career and stood on the Kop for the vast majority of them, I never recall hearing such songs (any proof ;) ). The only players I ever recall getting abuse were those with Celtic connections, indeed Neil Lennon had never a problem when he was with Leicester. That is in no way justifying that abuse, just stating it like it is. I actually am not totally correct I also recall one or two players with Glentoran connections taking stick because of the large Linfield contingent in the support. As for Big Pat, the guy was my hero and I still believe he was the best keeper in the world then and since. The guy was idolised from the Kop but maybe that does not fit certain peoples stereotypes.

[Krstic]

I tell you what, without the proof I will retract the statement that there was paramilitary involvement in the security operation. I have not changed my mind on it and I still believe it to be the case but, as I said, without the proof I will not mention it again.

As for the songs mentioned. As someone who attended games throughout Pat's international career and stood on the Kop for the vast majority of them, I never recall hearing such songs (any proof ;) ). The only players I ever recall getting abuse were those with Celtic connections, indeed Neil Lennon had never a problem when he was with Leicester. That is in no way justifying that abuse, just stating it like it is. I actually am not totally correct I also recall one or two players with Glentoran connections taking stick because of the large Linfield contingent in the support. As for Big Pat, the guy was my hero and I still believe he was the best keeper in the world then and since. The guy was idolised from the Kop but maybe that does not fit certain peoples stereotypes.

Canny argue with your first paragraph david, so fair enough.
So you'll understand why i stand by my assertion that you are being hypocritical as i have not changed my mind on it.

As for only Celtic players being abused playing for Northern Ireland, as i cannot produce the proof to the contrary and in fact was not there myself I'll do likewise and give over.

And as for Not Brazil crying to the Mods about being called a Bigot by Steve, surely that's a bit rich when Not Brazil you decide to call me sectarian.

[David]

Canny argue with your first paragraph david, so fair enough.
So you'll understand why i stand by my assertion that you are being hypocritical as i have not changed my mind on it.

As for only Celtic players being abused playing for Northern Ireland, as i cannot produce the proof to the contrary and in fact was not there myself I'll do likewise and give over.

And as for Not Brazil crying to the Mods about being called a Bigot by Steve, surely that's a bit rich when Not Brazil you decide to call me sectarian.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Not Brazil can speak for himself but I am sure, like me, he was genuinely offended by the bigot accusation. I have worked damn hard, along with others, to eradicate sectarian crap from Linfield. I abhor sectarainism and bigotry and have many friends of both and neither religion. What religion they are does not matter one bit to me. Likewise with the players that play for Linfield. The SC I am in is based on the Shankill Road and we have always made all players welcome at our club functions. Indeed, if the truth be told, we go that we bit further for the Catholic players to make them feel at ease to enable them to enjoy themselves so forgive me if I get a little upset at being accused of bigotry please.

[Krstic]

I have no doubt whatsoever that Not Brazil can speak for himself but I am sure, like me, he was genuinely offended by the bigot accusation. I have worked damn hard, along with others, to eradicate sectarian crap from Linfield. I abhor sectarainism and bigotry and have many friends of both and neither religion. What religion they are does not matter one bit to me. Likewise with the players that play for Linfield. The SC I am in is based on the Shankill Road and we have always made all players welcome at our club functions. Indeed, if the truth be told, we go that we bit further for the Catholic players to make them feel at ease to enable them to enjoy themselves so forgive me if I get a little upset at being accused of bigotry please.

Again fair enough, but it wasn't me who called you or NotBrazil a bigot.

And maybe you'll agree that it's a bit rich to cry to mods about name calling and then jump on the bandwagon.
Which is what NotBrazil has done.

But anyway I think we've done this one to death and no doubt others are well bored of us Northerners with our 'he said she said'

So we'll get back to the football.

[David]

Again fair enough, but it wasn't me who called you or NotBrazil a bigot.

And maybe you'll agree that it's a bit rich to cry to mods about name calling and then jump on the bandwagon.
Which is what NotBrazil has done.

But anyway I think we've done this one to death and no doubt others are well bored of us Northerners with our 'he said she said'

So we'll get back to the football.

Now that I can certainly live with.

[Not Brazil]

And as for Not Brazil crying to the Mods about being called a Bigot by Steve, surely that's a bit rich when Not Brazil you decide to call me sectarian.

I didn't. Stop lying.

What I said (and what I meant) was "You really need to get your head out of the bog of sectarianism that it currently seems to be obsessed with chief"

A quick perusal over this thread will clearly demonstrate that you have a rather unhealthy fascination with football players' religious denominations.

I don't give a **** what religion, if any, anyone is.

You really need to move on chief.

[Krstic]

I didn't. Stop lying.

What I said (and what I meant) was "You really need to get your head out of the bog of sectarianism that it currently seems to be obsessed with chief"

A quick perusal over this thread will clearly demonstrate that you have a rather unhealthy fascination with football players' religious denominations.

I don't give a **** what religion, if any, anyone is.

You really need to move on chief.

So now you're calling me a liar as well, even though you have again accused me of being sectarian.(hard to deny you are calling me sectarian since you have now posted it twice)
Well i think even a blind man looking at this thread will see that although i have got carried away and gone a little over the top for a footie forum, i certainly haven't lied, resorted to name calling or gone crying to the mods about any of your accusations against me.
So maybe you should take a little bit of your own advice and move on.

[Not Brazil]

Uruguay played you off the park but you beat them 1-0 with Alan McDonald scoring the goal.
Gary Fleming was playing and when he got the ball he was called a dirty fenian and fu ck off back to (london) Derry ya fenian Cu nt.


I don't think Gary Fleming played in the game.:rolleyes:

Your rant appears to be falling apart at the seams.

Wrong goalscorer and made up stories about someone who wasn't even playing.:rolleyes:

"even though you have again accused me of being sectarian"

No, I have not. You are therefore either a liar, or you are being obtuse.

[Krstic]

I don't think Gary Fleming played in the game.:rolleyes:

Your rant appears to be falling apart at the seams.

Wrong goalscorer and made up stories about someone who wasn't even playing.:rolleyes:

"even though you have again accused me of being sectarian"

No, I have not. You are therefore either a liar, or you are being obtuse.

Go back and check your facts about either one of the games I mentioned, Fleming played.

I just check, he played in the spain game on 14/10/92 and wore the no.2 jersey
So at least get your facts straight before you start the name calling.

And then take your name calling back to ILF where it belongs.

[Not Brazil]

Go back and check your facts about either one of the games I mentioned, Fleming played.

I just check, he played in the spain game on 14/10/92 and wore the no.2 jersey
So at least get your facts straight before you start the name calling.

And then take your name calling back to ILF where it belongs.

You are backtracking.

Gary Fleming did not play in the game against Uruguay.

Let me remind you of what you said:

"Uruguay played you off the park but you beat them 1-0 with Alan McDonald scoring the goal.
Gary Fleming was playing ..."

So, you were inaccurate on two counts.

My facts are perfectly straight.

I do not come from the ILF so therefore I will not be taking anything back to ILF.

[Krstic]

You are backtracking.

Gary Fleming did not play in the game against Uruguay.

Let me remind you of what you said:

"Uruguay played you off the park but you beat them 1-0 with Alan McDonald scoring the goal.
Gary Fleming was playing ..."

So, you were inaccurate on two counts.

My facts are perfectly straight.

I do not come from the ILF so therefore I will not be taking anything back to ILF.

On 21/04/06 @ 8.51, I mentioned 2 games my uncle told about. Wrong goalscorer for one granted but then my uncles no spring chicken.
I also mentioned the spain game of the same campaign, those were the 2 games he was at.
I started a new paragraph when mentioning Gary Fleming, which you have neatly altered.
I may not have translated my uncles message very well but the facts are there, he was at those 2 games, fleming played in one and got abuse from his own fans.

You seem to be unable to believe this, yet the problem of your fans booing their own players has been well docmented in the past.

But as i said to David i think i'll leave it at that, so on your next abusive post i think I'll just give you a miss.

Bye now.

[Not Brazil]

On 21/04/06 @ 8.51, I mentioned 2 games my uncle told about. Wrong goalscorer for one granted but then my uncles no spring chicken.
I also mentioned the spain game of the same campaign, those were the 2 games he was at.
I started a new paragraph when mentioning Gary Fleming, which you have neatly altered.
I may not have translated my uncles message very well but the facts are there, he was at those 2 games, fleming played in one and got abuse from his own fans.

You seem to be unable to believe this, yet the problem of your fans booing their own players has been well docmented in the past.

But as i said to David i think i'll leave it at that, so on your next abusive post i think I'll just give you a miss.

Bye now.

Let's get some facts sorted out.

1. The Uruguay game was on the 18th May 1990.

2. Gary Fleming did not play in that game.

3. The Spain game in Belfast that Gary Fleming played in was, as you stated, on 14th October 1992 in a World Cup qualifier (0-0). This was not "the same campaign"

4. I do not know if Gary Fleming was abused or not during the 1992 game. I was at the game, but I do not recall him being abused. That is not to say that he wasn't.

5. Until your comments on this thread, I was totally unaware of what Gary Fleming's religious denomination was.

6. I do not care what religion, if any, a player is. If he wears the Green shirt, that's all that interests me.

7. I do not deny anything of the past. I work to ensure that sectarian chanting is a thing of the past at Northern Ireland games. I abhor it.

8. Almost every team has an element of supporters who can let the other fans down on occassion. Northern Ireland fans are no different in this regard, although hard work has ensured that the atmosphere nowadays is something special.

9. Players from both major traditions in Northern Ireland are represented in our international teams at every level. They always were, and they always will be.

10. If you wish to discuss matters pertaining to the Northern Ireland international football team, I would respectfully suggest that you get your facts right before posting. Where you are inaccurate, expect to be challenged.

Goodbye.

[Krstic]

Let's get some facts sorted out.

1. The Uruguay game was on the 18th May 1990.

2. Gary Fleming did not play in that game.

3. The Spain game in Belfast that Gary Fleming played in was, as you stated, on 14th October 1992 in a World Cup qualifier (0-0). This was not "the same campaign"

4. I do not know if Gary Fleming was abused or not during the 1992 game. I was at the game, but I do not recall him being abused. That is not to say that he wasn't.

5. Until your comments on this thread, I was totally unaware of what Gary Fleming's religious denomination was.

6. I do not care what religion, if any, a player is. If he wears the Green shirt, that's all that interests me.

7. I do not deny anything of the past. I work to ensure that sectarian chanting is a thing of the past at Northern Ireland games. I abhor it.

8. Almost every team has an element of supporters who can let the other fans down on occassion. Northern Ireland fans are no different in this regard, although hard work has ensured that the atmosphere nowadays is something special.

9. Players from both major traditions in Northern Ireland are represented in our international teams at every level. They always were, and they always will be.

10. If you wish to discuss matters pertaining to the Northern Ireland international football team, I would respectfully suggest that you get your facts right before posting. Where you are inaccurate, expect to be challenged.

Goodbye.

Well at last you've come up with a post without resorting to name calling, happy days.

And I fully accept that the Windsor Park of 2day is different to that of yesteryear.

The only reason i mentioned Gary Fleming was in respone to a post claiming the only players to be abused by their own fans were Celtic Players.

I gave you the names of 2 games in late 80's early 90's that my uncle attended, and at one game the above player was abused by his own fans.

My unlces memory of which game was which may not be the best, but he or I am not a liar or in a bog of sectarianism.

[Not Brazil]

The only reason i mentioned Gary Fleming was in respone to a post claiming the only players to be abused by their own fans were Celtic Players.

I gave you the names of 2 games in late 80's early 90's that my uncle attended, and at one game the above player was abused by his own fans.

My unlces memory of which game was which may not be the best, but he or I am not a liar or in a bog of sectarianism.

What your uncle relates to you amounts to little more than hearsay.

You uncle's clarity on what he heard would need to be balanced with the fact that he didn't know who scored the winning goal at one of the games he attended. In fact, he volunteered inaccurate information on that count.

Gary Fleming may or may not have been abused by some folk in the vicinity of your uncle. What I can tell you without fear of contradiction is that there was no widespread abuse of Gary Fleming at any game I attended, including the 1992 game against Spain.

Gary Fleming was a good Northern Ireland servant, and put in some excellent performances - not least in the aforementioned 0-0 draw with Spain.

You seem to want to get embroiled in discussion about players' religious persuasions. I don't know why that is, but I certainly don't.

As I have said, I judge a footballer on his ability to play football, not on what Church he goes to.

[Krstic]

What your uncle relates to you amounts to little more than hearsay.

You uncle's clarity on what he heard would need to be balanced with the fact that he didn't know who scored the winning goal at one of the games he attended. In fact, he volunteered inaccurate information on that count.

Gary Fleming may or may not have been abused by some folk in the vicinity of your uncle. What I can tell you without fear of contradiction is that there was no widespread abuse of Gary Fleming at any game I attended, including the 1992 game against Spain.

Gary Fleming was a good Northern Ireland servant, and put in some excellent performances - not least in the aforementioned 0-0 draw with Spain.

You seem to want to get embroiled in discussion about players' religious persuasions. I don't know why that is, but I certainly don't.

As I have said, I judge a footballer on his ability to play football, not on what Church he goes to.

2 posts without name calling. I'm impressed, maybe you've seen the error of your ways.

But again you twist everything in order to paint me as a religious bigot, I've already pointed out to you why i mentioned Gary, it was in reply to a post about 'only Celtic players were abused, not that this is a good reason to abuse your own players.

Maybe if you want to debate football we can, until then keep your name calling and accusations to yourself or I will follow your lead and go crying to the powers that be.

[Not Brazil]

2 posts without name calling. I'm impressed, maybe you've seen the error of your ways.

But again you twist everything in order to paint me as a religious bigot, I've already pointed out to you why i mentioned Gary, it was in reply to a post about 'only Celtic players were abused, not that this is a good reason to abuse your own players.

Maybe if you want to debate football we can, until then keep your name calling and accusations to yourself or I will follow your lead and go crying to the powers that be.

I am always happy to debate football, but unfortunately this thread is only vaguely related to football.

When we are debating football, and in particular relating to the Northern Ireland team and it's supporters, I will challenge you and anyone else who posts inaccuracies. You can count on that.

Similarly, when someone labels me a bigot without one iota of evidence to suggest that that is the case, I will naturally appeal to the sound judgement of the forum moderators.

No doubt you are aware that the two players who left Derry last week claiming they were threatened are not the first black players to leave the city in "dubious" circumstances.

Wasn't there a player from Cameroon on trial at the Brandywell who made unfounded claims of racial abuse in the late 90's, that was subsequently threw out of court?

[Krstic]

Similarly, when someone labels me a bigot without one iota of evidence to suggest that that is the case, I will naturally appeal to the sound judgement of the forum moderators.

It's a pity you don't live by your own high standards.



No doubt you are aware that the two players who left Derry last week claiming they were threatened are not the first black players to leave the city in "dubious" circumstances.

Wasn't there a player from Cameroon on trial at the Brandywell who made unfounded claims of racial abuse in the late 90's, that was subsequently threw out of court?
If I remember correctly, the player in question took another player to court for assault, the other player was playing for Bangor but trained with Derry.
I'll PM you his name if you'd like and the circumstances, which involved a relationship with the Derry Born players sister.

[Not Brazil]

If I remember correctly, the player in question took another player to court for assault, the other player was playing for Bangor but trained with Derry.
I'll PM you his name if you'd like and the circumstances, which involved a relationship with the Derry Born players sister.

No need to go to any trouble. The guy was called Romauld Mindoukna.

The moral of the story is let's wait and see what transpires before jumping to conclusions about who was involved and why they were involved.