Revenue Commissioners Investigate League

[chippie0001]

Not that this is a major shock to anyone but the front page of the Sunday business post and a half a page article on page 17 indicates that the revenue are talking to all Eircome league clubs re tax affairs. The entire process was triggered by Rovers and what they owed.

Main point from the article state that up to half the clubs in the league owe money, some tens of thousands, one club up to a million. :eek: Ollie wants a tax amnesty for all the clubs so they can start over, blaming lack of investment and clubs trying to make the league professional. Again mentions the April 3rd date and Shels being wound up. A revenue quote that they took action against Shels after they missed a payment.

Quotes genisis on the league and how the league is bankrupt, players don't get pay slips etc. Says the process will be ongoing until the revenue gets its money that it is owed. Also on a side note says the FAI made €2,9m profit last year :rolleyes:

[Forever Dreamin]

Ollie Byrne has called for the Revenue to give all Eioocm league clubs an amnesty. This is a bit of a cheek coming after he was quite happy to see Rovers relegated last year due to their financial situation and the problems with the revenue.
While I dont want to see clubs die fair play suggests that any clubs that are insolvent should be penalised like Rovers with a points deduction. Even if it means all clubs deducted points it's the principal of it.
Future grants should be clearly dependent on tax affairs being in order for clubs.

[Gareth]

Ollie Byrne has called for the Revenue to give all Eioocm league clubs an amnesty. This is a bit of a cheek coming after he was quite happy to see Rovers relegated last year due to their financial situation and the problems with the revenue.
While I dont want to see clubs die fair play suggests that any clubs that are insolvent should be penalised like Rovers with a points deduction. Even if it means all clubs deducted points it's the principal of it.
Future grants should be clearly dependent on tax affairs being in order for clubs.

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair :)

[chippie0001]

For me if the government or the FAI are serious about pro football then something like Ollie suggests should be looked at. In my view any tax paid by a club over the last 5 years should be refunded, and all outstanding debts for every club written off. The clubs who have been honest and paying their taxes get their cash back while the ones who haven't get their clean slate but don't profit. Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

[Gareth]

Chippie, sounds like a plan.

[pete]

Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

If the eL is being targeted surely the GAA will be next? Surely any organisation that pays such huge "expenses" would be suspicious?

I think part of the eL problem is that the PFAI want wages to be net of taxes where the club is responsibile to pay the tax. As most clubs have only started to have professional admin & accounts this probably lead to gaps...

I presume if a club has changed hands & not run by different limited company liabilities cannot extend to the previous operating company?

[Ger Fay]

The GAA would not have the same effect as it does not pay anyone with the excetpion to the full time staff at the HQ. All players are voluntary so there is no tax issues there.

Also the gaa does not sell anything. Not sure if it was able to recoup the VAT on its buidling costs but i think they would be able to as I think the GAA has some sort of a tax exemption

[pete]

The vast majority of eL players are part-time. Does this mean the eL clubs should just pay them IN expenses like the GAA?

Most inter-county managers are all but professional fulltime employees. Why else would someone travel the length of the country for training sessions with players if not getting expenses by the mile.

[chippie0001]

The GAA would not have the same effect as it does not pay anyone with the excetpion to the full time staff at the HQ. All players are voluntary so there is no tax issues there.

Also the gaa does not sell anything. Not sure if it was able to recoup the VAT on its buidling costs but i think they would be able to as I think the GAA has some sort of a tax exemption
Yeah right every GAA player and manager gets expenses. How are these expenses decided on? On what basis are they tax free. When O'Dwyer was manager of Kildare he was rumoured to be getting €50k a year in "expenses" so don't tell me the players etc get nothing.

[A face]

The vast majority of eL players are part-time. Does this mean the eL clubs should just pay them IN expenses like the GAA?

Most inter-county managers are all but professional fulltime employees. Why else would someone travel the length of the country for training sessions with players if not getting expenses by the mile.

You'd wonder why clubs haven't been doing anything like that, even in part, travel expenses etc. playing away every second week with mileage clearly building up, why wouldn't eL clubs start payng less wages and more expenses. Its not like its illegal to do it, most business do this.

[Passive]

For me if the government or the FAI are serious about pro football then something like Ollie suggests should be looked at. In my view any tax paid by a club over the last 5 years should be refunded, and all outstanding debts for every club written off. The clubs who have been honest and paying their taxes get their cash back while the ones who haven't get their clean slate but don't profit. Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

Here's a mad plan - if football clubs in Ireland are to be taken seriously, why don't they run themselves as legitimate businesses and fulfill their legal responsibility to pay tax on earnings?

It's so crazy it might just work.

[pineapple stu]

Don't be stupid Passive. Sure for that to work, we'd have to all live within our maens, plan things properly, avoid stupid crazy spending sprees in the vague hope of some unrealistic pipe-dream and other such idiocies.

[chippie0001]

Here's a mad plan - if football clubs in Ireland are to be taken seriously, why don't they run themselves as legitimate businesses and fulfill their legal responsibility to pay tax on earnings?

It's so crazy it might just work.
It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

[pineapple stu]

Why would the Government advocate a league where they got absolutely no tax and set a precedent for other sporting leagues to do the same?

[chippie0001]

Why would the Government advocate a league where they got absolutely no tax and set a precedent for other sporting leagues to do the same?

Who said they get no tax? I never talked about the future. I said that the government back genisus according to the FAI and are willing to stump up a large amount of cash to see Dalier redeveloped and Bohs and Shels in it. They are also willing to pay for Tallaght for Rovers and maybe Pats. However these facilities alone won't develop the league and someone will have to help the clubs, for example the provinces in rugby need the IRFU help to maintain being professional. In short someone has to decide on the future of the league and seemingly the FAI with government help are backing the genisus report which advocates pro football. As we all agree the clubs alone cannot fund that so someone has to help.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, you mean the write-off-current-tax and start over idea? Different, I suppose. Though I still don't really see them going for it. All it'd do it teach the clubs that they can screw up as much as they want and they'll always get bailed out.

[Roverstillidie]

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair :)

eradicated? there seems to be the impression out there that the revenue only got 4% of what was owed. not true, they got much, much more. and what we did was legal and done in conjunction with the revenue.

are you suggesting olly is right to believe he shouldnt pay tax because he has inaccurate information about how much we paid? :confused:

[Passive]

It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

Chippie, I know myself and yourself sing from the same hymn sheet regarding clubs getting their acts together so I'm not having a go at you, but any sort of amnesty would just mean we were sweeping this under the carpet for another ten years before clubs start going bust again.

Clubs with good gates and good backing from the business community can still afford to pay players quite good money without having to break the law (because, let's face it, that's what clubs are doing). If we did an amnesty now, all we would be doing would be giving clubs a green light to continue as they were. We wouldn't be changing anything.

Government funding for infrastructure, solid links with the business community and a shift in the sporting culture of the Irish public will all help get us to where we want to be, but I don't think the State turning a blind eye to a decade of criminal activity would be the answer.

[dcfcsteve]

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair :)

No - the reason Ollie mentions a tax amnesty is, surprise surprise, because his own club are in serious sh!ite with the tax man. Good old Ollie - never one to let shamelessness stand in the way of his own self-interest.

And Rovers didn't have their bill eradicated - they still had to pay some of it.

Ollie Byrne has a feckin' cheek to be looking for a tax amnesty now. Other clubs have gone through years of under-performance and pain to get their finances in order and onto a strong footing. Meanwhile, Ollie was using the tax-man's money to fund a couple of league titles. :rolleyes:

[dcfcsteve]

It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

There's seems to be an implicit assumtpion/assertion amonst EL fans that a professional football league in Ireland is a necessity, or even a right !

The bottom line is that there is NOT enough money in Irish football at the moment to fund more than maybe one or two fully professional clubs. For as long as we ignore this reality, our clubs and our league will constantly bumble from one financial crisis to another

I'd love our league to be professional, but it just isn't sustainable under current conditions. I suspect the FAI's grand plan re clubs etc (possibly involing an all-island dimension) is their perceived last throw of the dice - establish what they believe to be the strongest structure for a domestic league in Ireland, put some money into it as a once-off, and then see if it sinks or swims from there.

[pineapple stu]

The bottom line is that there is NOT enough money in Irish football at the moment to fund more than maybe one or two fully professional clubs. For as long as we ignore this reality, our clubs and our league will constantly bumble from one financial crisis to another

I'd love our league to be professional, but it just isn't sustainable under current conditions.
Sad but true. The league simply can't move forward while we all believe that the holy grail of regular Champions' League qualification is just around the corner. It has to move forward at its own speed and be the best it can become, not the best some pipe-dreamers like Ollie and Roddy believe is possible in their dreams...

[chippie0001]

There's seems to be an implicit assumtpion/assertion amonst EL fans that a professional football league in Ireland is a necessity, or even a right !

The bottom line is that there is NOT enough money in Irish football at the moment to fund more than maybe one or two fully professional clubs. For as long as we ignore this reality, our clubs and our league will constantly bumble from one financial crisis to another

I'd love our league to be professional, but it just isn't sustainable under current conditions. I suspect the FAI's grand plan re clubs etc (possibly involing an all-island dimension) is their perceived last throw of the dice - establish what they believe to be the strongest structure for a domestic league in Ireland, put some money into it as a once-off, and then see if it sinks or swims from there.

For what its worth I don't mind if we have an amatuer, semi pro or full time pro league. At Bohs I have long advoacted that we are spending too much and for the record we still are. However with Genisus and the new league next season there seems to be a move to a 10 team pro league. Supposedly the government are going to help with facilities etc. If all this is true, the clubs with outstanding debts will be equally screwed in a years time and we will have all this over again. Something has to be done, my favoured approach like passive's is for clubs to cut their cloth, but then that goes against what the FAI want. You cannot win either way.

[pete]

Shels have been overspending for years & dodging tax bills so they do not deserve amnesty. Typical Ollie to criticise other clubs when they down but does complete u-turn when he is in the same boat. Most clubs have the wisdom not to criticise others as could easily be in the same situation themselves.

[Macy]

If the eL is being targeted surely the GAA will be next? Surely any organisation that pays such huge "expenses" would be suspicious?
As I understand it, it was the Rovers wages being paid as expenses that tipped off the revenue to the problems in the eL. Because of nett pay contracts, clubs were stretching the boundaries of expenses to reduce their tax liability.


I think part of the eL problem is that the PFAI want wages to be net of taxes where the club is responsibile to pay the tax. As most clubs have only started to have professional admin & accounts this probably lead to gaps...
I'm disgusted to the PFAI's view on this. They are happy with the status quo, and I've not once heard them come out looking for payslips and P60's. Infact, as far as I can see, they've argued the other way, despite the tax pay back for the ten years after retirement. I suppose they only reflect their members views, and frankly I've been shocked at the attitude of some of their high profile playing reps view on the issue.

[manic da hoop]

The PFAI have no interest in how the league is run, they'll remain happy as long as their overpaid members continue to get paid. The manner in which their employers get hold of this money in the first place, and whether or not tax is paid on it doesn't bother them. However, if and when a club misses a payment for one reason or another you'll find Fran Gavin screaming from the rooftops about the shoddy way in which our clubs are run.

[Forever Dreamin]

If we take a leaf out of the IRFU book, 4 teams, all players contracted by the IRFU through the provinces and competing at the very highest level in Europe. If we take a reality check this is the way forward, a max of 4 or 5 clubs playing an a league comprising clubs from a number of jurisdictions. That would allow us to keep our top players playing in Ireland with crowds similar to the Premiership. However for this to happen it means the end of The El as we know it, and Euefa approval for a league comprising a few countries. Clubs can not continue to pay out more than they take in and the revenue have no option but to force payment or closure when there is no will to pay.

[Ronnie]

The PFAI's main concern at the moment is that no player is paid below the minimum wage!

[centre mid]

A MAJOR tax investigation has been launched into the financial affairs of football clubs in the Eircom League.

The Revenue Commissioners have started the probe with the 22-team league termed a "area of specific risk" with audits being undertaken on a number of clubs.

The move comes after it emerged that some of the clubs have significant tax bills with the League being highlighted as an area of risk.

Last night, a spokesman for the Revenue Commissioners said it was not unusual for the department to examine a whole sector after one business within that industry or sector had its financial affairs investigated.

One of the main areas of concern is in relation to tax liability on players' wages with a number of them complaining in the past that they had not received payslips or that the amount on the slip was not equal to the figure received.

The Revenue Commissioners have said that every team in the Eircom League are "engaged" with them and it was expected that this would continue for some time into the future.

Two weeks ago, the Revenue Commissioners issued a High Court petition to wind up the company, Accolade, that runs Shelbourne FC.

CEO Ollie Byrne has called on the government to grant a tax amnesty for Eircom League clubs which, he said, would give them a fresh start. Shelbourne owes about €300,000 in back taxes.

Clubs in the Eircom League were identified as being of specific risk about a year ago by a unit within the Revenue Commissioners. Of the 22 clubs in the Eircom League, it is reported that more than half are in arrears with the Revenue Commissioners.

Amounts owing vary from tens of thousands of euro right up to €1m, with the majority of the arrears attributed to players' wages.

Concern has been raised that proper financial controls are not in place at the football clubs with money at turnstiles sometimes going into a biscuit tin or a bag.

Irish Independent


Worrying times

[CharlesThompson]

This is a two page thread about this. Well done for continuing the thread with this article. Well done.

[pete]

threads merged...

[trevy]

Good to see some common sense from most posters about players wages and the overspending of some clubs in the league.If clubs spent what they could afford instead of running up huge debts building big squads while playing in front of 1500 or 2000 fans they wouldn't get into trouble with the revenue commissionars in the first place.

[higgins]

Ollie has some neck asking for an amnesty for all clubs!!

How in gods name could you work that ??
It would be totally unfair as all clubs have different amounts they owe revenue and the ones with the small debts would lose out.

If all clubs were to receive some form of a grant and the revenue takes the chunk they are owed before the remained goes to the club that might work but wiping all debts for everyone is ridiculous.

If clubs have built up debts its their own problem. Clubs have the right to build up these debts but it is unfair on all other clubs if these debts are cancelled one way or the other.

[gspain]

An amnesty is worth a try but not going to happen.

[LFC in Exile]

I think an amnesty would be completely wrong - in principle and in effect. In principle, all clubs knew they had tax to pay. Providing an amnesty would punish those who have the largest tax liability i.e. those who have defaullted or run up the largest bill. Also, it sends out the wrong signal. How can we encourage clubs to run their affairs properly if there is an amnesty provided.

In the article Ollie says provide an amnesty and wipe the slate clean then after that any club that gets in trouble will be treated harshly. Bullsh1t. All clubs knew before now that they had to pay taxes.

Also, in terms of the poitns deduction that Rovers got last season. AFAIK this was due to becoming insolvent - not having to make a settlement with the tax man. If Shels go into liquidation (or Accolade does) becasue of a claim by Revenue then points must be deducted. If they pay their bill before April 3rd then there is no case for points deduction.

On a related note - there have been proposals for grants to GAA players based on county performance. This will cost up to €3m a year. Why is this not extended to eL clubs. Part-time players could be funded in this way. There is no basis on which part-time players in one sport can be provided with these grants and part-time players in another sport are denied them. The spurious argument that the GAA is an amateur organisation does not stack up. The players may not be paid for bringing supporters into grounds and generating fantastic revenues for the organsation, but the organisation is one of the most professionally run sporting bodies in this country.

[Schumi]

An amnesty would be a farce. Why should irresponsibly run clubs get bailed out and clubs that have tried to sort themselves out at the cost of success get shafted? What's to stop clubs from running up debts again anyway.

If a club is incapable of sorting out their debt to revenue, their entire budget should be overseen and controlled centrally so they have to pay what they owe over a certain period of time and can't overspend.

[gufct]

we have been dealing with the taxman for 10 years almost now.The situation in relation to expenses has been blown out of the water and none are being allowed at all since the Rovers situation.


Why should clubs who try to keep their houses in order be punished while those who flout the laws of the land and the licensing laws do what they like.

As for payslips GUFC players get them with their cheques every week.

[Ceirtlis]

Talk of a tax amnesty is absolute nonsense. If Shelbourne have spent money that wasnt theirs in the first place then they should be punished. And that goes for every club in the el as well it appears to me some clubs are spending a lot more than they can afford.

[LFC in Exile]

we have been dealing with the taxman for 10 years almost now.The situation in relation to expenses has been blown out of the water and none are being allowed at all since the Rovers situation.


Why should clubs who try to keep their houses in order be punished while those who flout the laws of the land and the licensing laws do what they like.

As for payslips GUFC players get them with their cheques every week.

And did Nick Lesson get teh Revenue really worried? :)

Only kidding. :)

[dcfcsteve]

A Tax Amnesty is an absurd suggestion - made by Ollie, for Ollie.

It would be unfair on clubs who have smaller or no debts, and would set a very difficult precedent for the Revenue in-relation to sports clubs. Every other sporting code could justifiably then demand one as well.

In addition, it would be grossly unfair on Derry City, who wouldn't be able to take advantage of any ROI tax amnesty. It's bad enough already that we're the only club that gets hit with tax on gate receipts.

I suspect Ollie's absurd fantascism will be treated as just that by those in positions of any influence....

[Sinéad K]

In all honesty I can't see a tax amensty happening. To do so would require too much legislation going through government with regards to amending tax laws (both PAYE & VAT). As well most football clubs in Ireland are run as a business, with Directors and shareholders and most are also Limited Companies. To play Devil's advocate, why should a football club (as described above) be given a tax amensty when say 'Mr Joe Public' runs a company that employs 20 staff but over the years he hasn't paid any VAT or his staff PAYE so that he could operate in some fancy building, top of the range company cars etc. So should he also get a tax amensty?? I don't think so. Could you imagine the outcry in the country if that was to happen. This league takes enough stick without given anyone any more ammunition. At the end of the day tax laws do not discrimate between what you do, whether you run a football club or an every day business. As regards to footballers being paid net with no wage slips etc, I know that is illegal in the UK but not sure about the Republic.

I for one think that the league is going the right way with regards to on the pitch matters. The last two seasons have been exciting & have basically come down to the wire. But clubs can not afford to live beyond their means.

[Mpndo]

we have been dealing with the taxman for 10 years almost now.The situation in relation to expenses has been blown out of the water and none are being allowed at all since the Rovers situation.


Why should clubs who try to keep their houses in order be punished while those who flout the laws of the land and the licensing laws do what they like.

As for payslips GUFC players get them with their cheques every week.

Do they receive P60's from, or give P45's to their employers, GUFC?

Don't take offence by the way.

I'm curious as to whether all the other clubs give out P60's or ask players for P45's

[Hecko]

If we take Oily's suggestion to its logical conclusion, then all clubs get an amnesty and suffer a points deduction proportionate to their tax write-off, a point for every K in debt.

So City and Derry (making up figures for the sake of argument) get docked 10 points each and Shels get docked 300 points to be split over the next ten seasons. Sounds fair to me

[dcfcsteve]

If we take Oily's suggestion to its logical conclusion, then all clubs get an amnesty and suffer a points deduction proportionate to their tax write-off, a point for every K in debt.

So City and Derry (making up figures for the sake of argument) get docked 10 points each and Shels get docked 300 points to be split over the next ten seasons. Sounds fair to me

Derry wouldn't get docked anything - as we wouldn't be party to any Revenue write-off.

Actually, hang-on - maybe there's something in Oily's plan after all....... :D

[Roverstillidie]

Also, in terms of the poitns deduction that Rovers got last season. AFAIK this was due to becoming insolvent - not having to make a settlement with the tax man. If Shels go into liquidation (or Accolade does) becasue of a claim by Revenue then points must be deducted. If they pay their bill before April 3rd then there is no case for points deduction.
.

Not true. We were never insolvent. We went into voluntary examinership and as a result made a restructuring deal with the Revenue. The 8 points were desucted for 'licenicing irregularities', specifically the 2003 accounts returned again for 2004.
As far as im aware, there is no FAI/EL input with shels unless the Revenue revoke their tax clearance cert, presumably if they fail to pay whats due by April 4.
Are shels fans even fundraising?

[Dazzy]

Why does everyone think all clubs are getting investigated! We're not by the Southern Rev anyway:D

[Roverstillidie]

Why does everyone think all clubs are getting investigated! We're not by the Southern Rev anyway:D

we want parity of esteem now :D

[pineapple stu]

I'm curious as to whether all the other clubs give out P60's or ask players for P45's
We do, I'm fairly sure.

[Sam Savic]

On a related note - there have been proposals for grants to GAA players based on county performance. This will cost up to €3m a year. Why is this not extended to eL clubs. Part-time players could be funded in this way. There is no basis on which part-time players in one sport can be provided with these grants and part-time players in another sport are denied them. The spurious argument that the GAA is an amateur organisation does not stack up. The players may not be paid for bringing supporters into grounds and generating fantastic revenues for the organsation, but the organisation is one of the most professionally run sporting bodies in this country.

Eircom League players can avail of tax rebates when they retire. That is why the GAA are looking for "grants" for inter county players. They can't apply for the rebates because the GAA don't pay them.
On a seperate point, an amnesty would be of no use to Finn Harps. Didn't they return a profit of 5 pounds 2 shillings and 4 pence last year?

[sonofstan]

.
On a seperate point, an amnesty would be of no use to Finn Harps. Didn't they return a profit of 5 pounds 2 shillings and 4 pence last year?

would they not have thrown in an extra half crown and made it an even 5 guineas?

[Dazzy]

we want parity of esteem now :D

Well since Rovers are not long after dealing with the Rev they would not really be investigated:eek: