Secret All-Ireland League talks to resume

[A face]

Secret All-Ireland League talks to resume


Secret talks on an All-Ireland League will restart on Tuesday if Derry City’s historic clash with Linfield passes off peacefully.

Preliminary discussions were held in December between some of the biggest clubs in Ireland though those talks were shelved until now because all the clubs wanted to see would there be any trouble during the Setanta Sports Cup.

So far, there has been no problems with Derry visiting Linfield for the first time in 35 years for a competitive game passing without incident and now Monday’s return is being seen as the litmus test for an All-Ireland League.



*Got this from Bohs board, so i dont know where it is from originally*

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well a decently run All-Ireland League is preferable to a cherry picked FAIreland Eircom Premier Division League where incompetently run clubs with poor teams get elevated to the top flight purely on the basis of location and I exclude Cork City from that for the record.

[Risteard]

I've been really impressed by the Setanta.
Some good clubs with good stadiums up there.
I'm all for it.

Richardson said lately that there's a few people against the idea up North but that he would expect that to change over the next couple of years.

[pete]

I am not optimistic that Irish League teams will join an All-Ireland League. They seem to feel have to move to fulltime status & maybe only Linfield & Glentoran would be willing to change...

[Lux Interior]

I am not optimistic that Irish League teams will join an All-Ireland League. They seem to feel have to move to fulltime status & maybe only Linfield & Glentoran would be willing to change...

OFFICIALLY, Linfield are not supporting an All-Ireland league (an extension of the Setanta Cup, maybe). My own club are more cosied up to the idea, partly accelerated by the IFA's shabby treatment of GFC, post 'Kilmartingate' (02/03) and post-23/4/05.

[pete]

..partly accelerated by the IFA's shabby treatment of GFC,

Must be bad if ye willing to talk to our own idiots here... :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

Well a decently run All-Ireland League is preferable to a cherry picked FAIreland Eircom Premier Division League where incompetently run clubs with poor teams get elevated to the top flight purely on the basis of location and I exclude Cork City from that for the record.

To be fair, I expect the proposed 'weeding-out' of clubs to happen - whether there's an all-island league or not.

In fact - some might say the Genesis-endorseed weeding out is part and parcel of the gradual move to an AIL.

[CollegeTillIDie]

To be fair, I expect the proposed 'weeding-out' of clubs to happen - whether there's an all-island league or not.

In fact - some might say the Genesis-endorseed weeding out is part and parcel of the gradual move to an AIL.

Any process that ignores on the field achievement and League table positions has no credibility. And if it becomes impossible for any club not included in year 1 to aspire to get into it in future years that just compounds the problem!

[pineapple stu]

To be fair, I expect the proposed 'weeding-out' of clubs to happen - whether there's an all-island league or not.
From what I've heard, an all-Ireland league would only include Linfield and Glentoran; maybe Portadown. The rest would be left to die. The big clubs talking money again with no care about anyone other than themselves. Our own little G14.

Speaking of which, a very interesting comment from the UEFA Congress (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=64/newsId=406848.html) during the week where they passed a resolution saying -


Football is about fairness, opportinuty, excitement and variety. It is not a closed shop where only the richest and mst powerful are invited to the table. UEFA will not tolerate a structure or system where smaller clubs, smaller nations and all their supporters never have the chance to follow their dream. This is not what UEFA is about, this is not what Europe is about, this is not what football are about.

This was about the G14, but doesn't mention them specifically, so it can apply to any association or club under UEFA's arm. Sounds like a legal challenge against any sort of invitational breakaway league (or "weeding-out", if you want), north or south. I don't know what sort of sanctions UEFA could or would issue though.

[A face]

Ideally if there were an AIL, it would be what a majority of the stakeholders want in both leagues and both parties work together for the benfit of ALL clubs. The cherrypicking isnt the way to go imo.

[Speranza]

Why do people seem so willing to join an AIL. The same apathy will exist nation-wide as the novelty will not spread beyond those who already attend LoI and IL games. Just look at the pitiful attendance at the Oval on Monday night for how things would end up.

[pete]

I think any All Ireland league would need to be maybe no more than 10-12 team league & be a lot more than just adding a few IL sides to existing eL Premier. Would need a massive relaunch of with
- tv deal (weekly Setanta Sports live ),
- big name sponsor (willing to link product to the league)
- addition of better players (maybe league paying wages of big name player parachuted into each team)
- professional run media campaign & website advertising...

Its debatable what IL sides would really bring to the league if only going to be 2-3 of them.

The new FAI eL Premier SuperLeague will come first anyway & if thats successful maybe won't be huge demand for extra IL sides...

[Schumi]

Good to see these talks are being kept secret. :rolleyes:

[NY Hoop]

An AIL cannot happen without political unity.

KOH

[belfastreb]

An AIL cannot happen without political unity.

KOH

...you know that is complete ********, all other sports are unified why not soccer. Lets keep politics out of it..& lets have some quality soccer on this island

[dcfcsteve]

An AIL cannot happen without political unity.

KOH

What the feck ?!?!?! :eek: :confused:

Care to explain why ??

[A face]

An AIL cannot happen without political unity.

KOH


To be honest .... i think they should be kept seperate to be fair.

[pete]

How can these talks be secret if everyone knows about them?

[Krstic]

Lads we already have an All-Ireland league, Derry are fron Northern Ireland the rest from the Republic.

We don't need them, they don't want us.

So lets move on and make our own All-Ireland league bigger and better.

[anto eile]

An AIL cannot happen without political unity.

KOH
rubbish

[Dassa]

yeah but they have an all Ireland national team. this will not happen in football.

[NY Hoop]

Its not rubbish. UEFA have made it quite clear to the FAI that without political unity there cannot be an All Ireland League. UEFA are the governing body of European football and no league can operate without their permission.

Because of this expect to see the Setanta Cup being used as a mini AIL for years to come.

Gonzo I have no idea who shams are.


KOH

[NY Hoop]

That's Rovers to you son. The first division, which you lot know a lot about, and the lack of a ground are temporary.

Hope that clears it up for you.

KOH

[manic da hoop]

Oh, for the love of God...Yet another another interesting debate gets side-tracked into a typical foot.ie points scoring arguement due to one person's inability to resist the temptation to make some predictable remark about Rovers:rolleyes:

Any way, back on topic - yes, NY Hoop is proberbly right re UEFA's stance on the issue. The only way around it would be for one or both of the two associations to disband, thus doing away with the two international teams as we know them. That, quite simply, isn't going to happen before political unity. The other option would be for the FAI to invite individual clubs from the North (similarly to Derry in the eighties) to join us, presumably the strongest clubs in the north. It would retain the status quo with regard to how our league operates, only with a few additional members included.

[EnDai]

But that'd be unlikely without additional European places, as we'd've lots of big teams going for few places (I'm not complaining, it'd raise the standard no doubt - but the clubs are unlikely to want to lose out on European money!). Could the IFA get an injuction (or something?) in place to stop them leaving?

[pete]

Europe is not the be be all & end all of irish football. If an All Ireland league was able to sustain professional football for a whole Premier division it would be better.

It may be possibel to retain FAI Division 1 & IFA Division 1 as regional leagues to satisfy FIFA/Uefa requirements,

[manic da hoop]

Could the IFA get an injuction (or something?) in place to stop them leaving?

I doubt it. No doubt they'd resist it if the likes of Linfield or Glentoran went to them and said "we're out of here", but legally I can't see how under EU law they can block such a move - freedom of trade, and all that. It's worth considering, if certain, stronger clubs in the North can be persuaded that their potential is being stifled by staying in a league that is going backwards rather than forwards. OK, I know what we have down here isn't exactly the bee's knees but there are people up north who see the eircom league has being run with German efficienvy in comparison to what the IL has to offer in it's present state.

[gspain]

Oh, for the love of God...Yet another another interesting debate gets side-tracked into a typical foot.ie points scoring arguement due to one person's inability to resist the temptation to make some predictable remark about Rovers:rolleyes:

Any way, back on topic - yes, NY Hoop is proberbly right re UEFA's stance on the issue. The only way around it would be for one or both of the two associations to disband, thus doing away with the two international teams as we know them. That, quite simply, isn't going to happen before political unity. The other option would be for the FAI to invite individual clubs from the North (similarly to Derry in the eighties) to join us, presumably the strongest clubs in the north. It would retain the status quo with regard to how our league operates, only with a few additional members included.

Or the IFA to invite Shels, Derry and Bohs to rejoin. :D

Limerick might make it too as we had a team in the Irish Cup Final in 1892. ;)

I can't see it happening particularly as the "not so secret talks" involve clubs and not the governing bodies.

[pineapple stu]

Europe is not the be be all & end all of irish football. If an All Ireland league was able to sustain professional football for a whole Premier division it would be better.
Having watched the Setanta Cup and the various recent European campaigns, there can surely be no doubt which is more beneficial to clubs?

[Dassa]

having seen the crowds and interest in the Setanta cup I cant really see what all the interest is in AIL.

[TonyD]

having seen the crowds and interest in the Setanta cup I cant really see what all the interest is in AIL.

Maybe true in general, but there was nothing wrong with the athmosphere in the Brandwell on Monday, judging from the TV anyway.

[dcfcsteve]

Its not rubbish. UEFA have made it quite clear to the FAI that without political unity there cannot be an All Ireland League. UEFA are the governing body of European football and no league can operate without their permission.KOH

When exactly did UEFA make this pronouncement NYH, and where exactly has it been reported ??

Ignoring the fact that this is the first that i (and I suspect most other people on here) have heard of UEFA having made such a declaration - do you really think that UEFA would even have the vaguest interest in making a pronouncement that clearly meddled so heavily in politics ?

So if a breakaway from the IL joined the EL (or vice-versa) what would happen ? Are you telling me that UEFA would efefctively close-down/disown club football in Ireland !?! :eek: :rolleyes:

I suspect strongly that personal opinion/viewpoint and reported fact are gettign mixed up here.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Dassa's point re:attendances at Setanta Cup games is valid.
Irish people ( as in islanders who inhabit the Oul Sod) DO NOT earn the right to be called football supporters. IL and EL fans excepted. The rest of the herd ( hurrrrrrrd) are event junkies who won't go to something unless another 10,000 are going to be at it. And going every other week to every home game is too much like COMMITMENT and in the 21st Century nobody has that!

[NY Hoop]

When exactly did UEFA make this pronouncement NYH, and where exactly has it been reported ??

Ignoring the fact that this is the first that i (and I suspect most other people on here) have heard of UEFA having made such a declaration - do you really think that UEFA would even have the vaguest interest in making a pronouncement that clearly meddled so heavily in politics ?

So if a breakaway from the IL joined the EL (or vice-versa) what would happen ? Are you telling me that UEFA would efefctively close-down/disown club football in Ireland !?! :eek: :rolleyes:

I suspect strongly that personal opinion/viewpoint and reported fact are gettign mixed up here.

You couldnt be more wrong. I would love to see an AIL. I mean you would want to be an idiot not to want senior football on the island to progress.

I dont know the exact date when UEFA made this pronouncement but the FAI would know. As I said UEFA are the governing body and no league can operate without their permission.

KOH

[patcorr]

I reckon it is only a mtter of time before it happens, although a united international team has been ruled out. It works for rugby and snooker etc etc, why not for soccer? People are talking about unity and peace, maybe if people were more willing to communicate and interact, then that would be another steeping stone towards that goal, in a way this is about soccer and politics, but put the politics to one side, leave the politicians to their work, and just enjoyn the soccer. An injection of new teams to make a united league might increase the interest, make a league that we can all be proud of?

[pineapple stu]

If all the Irish club fans on here want their sides to progress, you need an AIL. If the usual suspects want to stick their head in the sand, so be it.

In the long-term it's surely about raising standards....rather than perpetuating mediocrity.
Some good sound-bytes, gonzo, but no substance behind your accusations. When you look at it, no-one's made a single valid point about an All-Ireland league which has been backed up by stats or evidence. Maybe we should start debating this evidence rather than throwing out sentences that sound good?

(Incidentally, I'm for an All-Ireland league. I just don't think it's the panacea it's being touted as.)

[Dassa]

I reckon it is only a mtter of time before it happens, although a united international team has been ruled out. It works for rugby and snooker etc etc, why not for soccer? People are talking about unity and peace, maybe if people were more willing to communicate and interact, then that would be another steeping stone towards that goal, in a way this is about soccer and politics, but put the politics to one side, leave the politicians to their work, and just enjoyn the soccer. An injection of new teams to make a united league might increase the interest, make a league that we can all be proud of?

Without a combined national team,personally cant see an all Island league and the last thing I want is combined national team. i think we are living in a dream world if we think its going to happen.

[patcorr]

It may be possible that if an All-Ireland league was constructed the level of football would improve, in a way of looking at it is that firstly a united league might gain more respect than two minor leagues. The population is there to support it. I suppose the question is how do you get people to support their local team?, when they are more interested in Chelsea, Liverpool and United. Another thing is that the teams represented in the league should be more nationwide based, rather than a handful of counties represented. The GAA can do it, why not the IFA/FAI? e.g Wexford, Kerry, Cavan.......

[dcfcsteve]

You couldnt be more wrong. I would love to see an AIL. I mean you would want to be an idiot not to want senior football on the island to progress.

I dont know the exact date when UEFA made this pronouncement but the FAI would know. As I said UEFA are the governing body and no league can operate without their permission.

KOH

Sorry NY - but I suspect that it's you who is talkign out of their hoop here (if you'll excuse the puin).

So - UEFA have made a proclamation that meddles heavily in politics in a part of Europe with a history of violent division. Despite foot.ie being full of people with a borderline obsession for Irish club football and everythign to do with it - no-one else on here appears to have heard of such a proclamation except you, and you can't even tell us roughly when such a fundamental proclamation was made, or when or where it was reported.....?:rolleyes:

I'm afraid it's yourself who's got this totally wrong NYH. As much as it bores me to have to bring this up seemingly every month now - there is a legal precedent under EU competition and Restraint of Trade law that states that any EU-based football club can play in any other EU-Based league if they want, so long as they are accepted within that new league. So, for example, if the Old Firm wanted to join the English League, and the League there voted to accept them, UEFA and the SFA could do feck all to stop it happening legally. Likewise, if a group of IL teams wanted to join the EL, or vice-versa, EU law would support them in doing this so long as they were accepd into that league in-accordance with its rules for accepting new members.

I can quote my evidence for this : the legal case of 'Newport County et al vs the FAW' and Lord Blackburn's ruling on it in the English High Court in 1994 - a ruling made made with reference to EU restraint of trade and competition law. Can you provide similar evidence for what you're saying ? As otherwise it's just nonesense...

[pete]

I don't think the Setanta Cup has gained much extra support outside people who would normally go to IL or eL games. Maybe this because Setanta coverage around the country is patchy (NTL + 32k Sky/Chorus subscribers).

Most of the IL sides except Linfield are average ability or poor so don't attract the attention of supporters. Cork City v Drogheda Setanta CUp crowds were a bit smaller than league crowds you;d expect but this is due to boredom of playing 3 times in 4-5 weeks.

[dcfcsteve]

Some good sound-bytes, gonzo, but no substance behind your accusations. When you look at it, no-one's made a single valid point about an All-Ireland league which has been backed up by stats or evidence. Maybe we should start debating this evidence rather than throwing out sentences that sound good?

(Incidentally, I'm for an All-Ireland league. I just don't think it's the panacea it's being touted as.)

The problem is that teh absence of an all-island league means that we're low on evidence !

But look at what little evidence we do have. What has been the single-biggest injection of cash and media coverage into both leagues in recent years ? Is it the IFA or FAI ? Is it the league's sponsors ? No. It's been Setanta.

Setanta have put more money into an Irish football competition than anyone else. They've also provided both a greater volume and consistency of TV coverage on domestic football than anyone else.

And what has got Setanta to do that ? A competition with an all-island dimension.

The attendances may not be great at some insular looking clubs (at others they've been very good !), but that is no surprise. Sustainable increases in attendnaces are built slowly. What's more importahnt in the short term for both leagues is cash injections and media coverage - preferably TV. And it's only been an all-island event that has brought both of those.

[NY Hoop]

Sorry NY - but I suspect that it's you who is talkign out of their hoop here (if you'll excuse the puin).

So - UEFA have made a proclamation that meddles heavily in politics in a part of Europe with a history of violent division. Despite foot.ie being full of people with a borderline obsession for Irish club football and everythign to do with it - no-one else on here appears to have heard of such a proclamation except you, and you can't even tell us roughly when such a fundamental proclamation was made, or when or where it was reported.....?:rolleyes:

I'm afraid it's yourself who's got this totally wrong NYH. As much as it bores me to have to bring this up seemingly every month now - there is a legal precedent under EU competition and Restraint of Trade law that states that any EU-based football club can play in any other EU-Based league if they want, so long as they are accepted within that new league. So, for example, if the Old Firm wanted to join the English League, and the League there voted to accept them, UEFA and the SFA could do feck all to stop it happening legally. Likewise, if a group of IL teams wanted to join the EL, or vice-versa, EU law would support them in doing this so long as they were accepd into that league in-accordance with its rules for accepting new members.

I can quote my evidence for this : the legal case of 'Newport County et al vs the FAW' and Lord Blackburn's ruling on it in the English High Court in 1994 - a ruling made made with reference to EU restraint of trade and competition law. Can you provide similar evidence for what you're saying ? As otherwise it's just nonesense...

Steve stop making this personal. I'm just passing on what the FAI have been told. If you think its "nonsense" then take it up with them. And there are people who have heard of this "proclamation". You can bring up legal precedents and court cases and quotes til you bore us all into oblivion.

Tip for the future: if you disagree with someone try not to dismiss it as "nonsense" or wrong.:rolleyes:

KOH

[pineapple stu]

The problem is that the absence of an all-island league means that we're low on evidence!
Well that's not much good. Say the whole thing goes ahead and flops - do people get out of it by saying "We're low on evidence because we didn't do it before"? We've never tried changing club names to silly American names like Derry Stripers and deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do that as well because some people blindly believe it'll make our league all-powerful. Setanta are putting money into the league - and fair dues to them for doing so - but there's no way they're putting all their money in for the Setanta Cup rights; they show far more eircom League games than Setanta Cup games, and the league would still get a decent chunk of money from Setanta without the Setanta Cup.

Your legal case is irrelevant because the relevant facts are different. I've pointed this out to you several times, and your only reposte has been an opinionated rant, long on patronisation but short on facts. Please stop bringing it up now - it's getting tedious. :rolleyes:

[Schumi]

deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do thatI agree! :D

[patcorr]

So if this AIL ever happens do we call it the Setanta Irish League/League of Ireland!!

[dcfcsteve]

Well that's not much good. Say the whole thing goes ahead and flops - do people get out of it by saying "We're low on evidence because we didn't do it before"? We've never tried changing club names to silly American names like Derry Stripers and deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do that as well because some people blindly believe it'll make our league all-powerful. Setanta are putting money into the league - and fair dues to them for doing so - but there's no way they're putting all their money in for the Setanta Cup rights; they show far more eircom League games than Setanta Cup games, and the league would still get a decent chunk of money from Setanta without the Setanta Cup.

I didn't state lack of evidence as a justification for having an all-island league -I just stated the fact that we're low on evidence. What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it. Should we let fear of failure prevent us from doing things that rational analysis suggests may be to our benefit ? Shall we just wallow in the sh!t that's our current league - lest we, showkc horror, make a decision that doesn't work ?


Your legal case is irrelevant because the relevant facts are different. I've pointed this out to you several times, and your only reposte has been an opinionated rant, long on patronisation but short on facts. Please stop bringing it up now - it's getting tedious. :rolleyes:

We've agreed to differ on this Pineapple. I brought it up again, as NY Hoop is making unsubstantaited claims that run contrary to something I have heard both an opposite legal view and a FIFA view on directly myself.

As for your assertion that "the relevant facts are different" - I'm sorry, but you've faield to persuade me (and, if I recall from the last thread we had on this, most other people reading it) of your arguement here. Which is why I got bored and agreed to disagree. But you couldn't resist one last go, eh....? :D

[Schumi]

An All-Ireland league certainly won't solve all the leagues' problems (or even many of them) but, if handled properly, could well prove the catalyst for proper measures to sort them out. The only downside (on the pitch) is the drop in European places (Steve, don't start that argument again please!!) but that will up the competition at the top of the league as Shels, Cork, Linfield and Glentoran won't be able to qualify every year and would have to fight for every league position. For the rest of the teams, a higher quality league would be well worth the loss of the odd European run and there's still a good chance of other teams winning the cup.

[Plastic man]

Sorry,throwing a few ideas about. Yeah, let's have an AI Lge., a UI soccer team........& hopefully a UI ASAP;)

IMHO, It would raise standards.....:rolleyes: sadly though there's a political agenda to accomodate the current dinosaurs.
(Very well documented,but wouldn't be terrible if there was ever change,FFS!) Er,'TAL'! ;)


What would happen if 10 years down the line and say 2/3 teams in Ireland dominate this AIL, wouldn't it be possible that they could leave and join some British or Euro Super League!

[dcfcsteve]

An All-Ireland league certainly won't solve all the leagues' problems (or even many of them) but, if handled properly, could well prove the catalyst for proper measures to sort them out. The only downside (on the pitch) is the drop in European places (Steve, don't start that argument again please!!) but that will up the competition at the top of the league as Shels, Cork, Linfield and Glentoran won't be able to qualify every year and would have to fight for every league position. For the rest of the teams, a higher quality league would be well worth the loss of the odd European run and there's still a good chance of other teams winning the cup.


Not a drop in available European places in real-terms - just increased competition for them..... :D

Sorry - it's a quiet Friday in the office... :p

[dcfcsteve]

What would happen if 10 years down the line and say 2/3 teams in Ireland dominate this AIL, wouldn't it be possible that they could leave and join some British or Euro Super League!

Yes - there is an ever-so-slight danger that that could happen.

But that's no reason not to make the change in the first place. European and world football is continually evolving.

You could even argue that the days of cheap airfares are numbered (on environmental grounds), and that the eagerness of fans to see their teams participating in a pan-European league could wane with time as taxes on air-fares pile up. The genuine fans won't want to have to watch all their away games solely on TV. This is jeat as feasible a scenario as some Irish club being welcomed into a European superleague.